Page 1
of 716

Eichmann and Sassen interview, file 88

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

Now, on a decision of the RSHA (Reich Security Main Office), passed on by telephone by Eichmann, these 4,051 children were taken from their parents and brought to the camp Dran…. The camp Dran is known as the place from which transports went to Auschwitz. The French then also agreed that 3 to 500 children could be added to each transport to Auschwitz.

And most of these children were in fact deported from Dran….

I know nothing about matters concerning children.

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

No staff of any kind accompanied the children in the sealed cattle cars, which at that time were filled with old and sick people, but somehow they had to get into the trains. A survivor of these transports describes it as follows: Sometimes a roomful of hundreds of children, seized by uncontrollable panic and terror, would no longer respond to the adults’ coaxing. They could not bring the children down; they had to call in …, who carried the screaming children down in their arms.

In Röthke’s deportation files a record dated 11 November 1942 was found:

Questioner

[Typed fragment: 8…]

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

that Belgian railwaymen had found the bodies of 25 children aged between two and four in the empty cattle cars returning from Auschwitz, children who had never reached the gas chamber.

Questioner

[Typed cue: Question:]

You, or rather your office, were responsible for the transports up to their handover at the destination stations. What do you have to say about these conditions?

Eichmann

That I have only learned about it today, that I know nothing about it.

Questioner

But, as the head of an office, is one responsible for everything one does not know?

[Handwritten annotation: … French ….]

Eichmann

Very well, then I am responsible; nothing can be done about that. The very fact that I had Dannecker relieved shows that people were not satisfied with his work. How the train was unloaded at Auschwitz was not my responsibility. Whether people died on the outward journey, I do not know; nobody knows that. I was responsible only for rounding people up and transporting them.

Questioner

Yes, but here the loading was not carried out properly…

Eichmann

I have already said in the case of Hungary that although the Hungarian government

[Handwritten annotation at the foot: ….]

Open page image and German
Page 526 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 526 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Nun wurden also auf Beschluß des RSHA, der von Eichmann telefonisch durchgegeben wurde, wurden diese 4051 Kinder ihren Eltern abgenommen und in der Lager Dran… geschafft. Das Lager Dran ist dafür bekannt daß von dort aus die Verschickungen nach Auschwitz erfolgten Nun stimmten auch die Franzosen zu, daß jedem Transport nach Auschwitz, 3 bis 500 Kinder beigegeben werden könnten Und die meisten dieser Kinder wurden auch tatsächlich aus Dran … deportiert. Über Kinderangelegenheiten ist mir nichts bekannt. Keinerlei Personal wurden den Kindern in den versiegelten Viehwagen beigegeben die damals mit Alten und Kranken angefüllt waren, aber irgendwie mußten sie in die Züge hinein. Ein Überlebender dieser Transporte schildert das folgendermaßen; Manchmal kam es vor, daß ein Zimmer voll mit hunderten von Kindern, die von einer unbeherrschbaren Panik und Entsetzen gepackt waren, dem Zugeden der Erwachsenen nicht länger folgten. Sie waren nicht in der Lage die Kinder herunter zu bringen, sie mußten schon….. rufen, die die schreienden Kinder auf ihren Armen herunter trugen. In Röttkes Deportationsakten wurden eine vom 11 Nov. 42 dadierte Aufzeichnung gefunden; 8…. daß Belgische Eisenbahner in den leeren aus Auschwitz zurückkehrenden Viehwagen, 25 Leichen von Kinder, im Alter von 2 Jahren bis 4 Jahren gefunden haben, die niemals bis zur Gaskammer gefunden haben. Frage; Sie bzw. Ihre Dienststelle waren für die Transporte verantwortlich bis zur Übergabe an die Zielbahnhöfe, was haben Sie nun zu diesen Zuständen zu sagen? Das ich das erst heute erfahren habe, daß ich davon nichts weiß. Aber für jede Unwissentheit ist man verantwortlich als Leiter einer Dienststelle? Gut, dann bin ich eben verantwortlich, da kann man nichts machen. Sie sehen ja schon allein, daß ich Dannecker ablösen ließ, daran sieht man ja schon daß man mit seiner Arbeit nicht zufrieden gewesen ist. – Wie der Zug nun entladen wurde in Auschwitz dafür kann ich ja nichts….. ob die Leute nun auf der Hinfahrt gestorben sind, daß weiß ich ja nicht, das weiß kein Mensch Ich war nur für die Erfassung und für die Transportierung verantwortlich Ja aber hier, das war kein ordnungsgemäßes Verladen…… Ich habe schon einmal im Fall Ungarn gesagt, daß obwohl der ung. Reg die

Draft translation

Band 53 [HW: 526] Now, therefore, on the decision of the RSHA, which was transmitted by telephone by Eichmann, these 4051 children were taken from their parents and brought to the camp Dran.. .. . The camp Dran is known for the fact that from there the transports to Auschwitz took place. Now the French also agreed that 3 to 500 children could be added to each transport to Auschwitz. And most of these children were in fact also deported [DEL: xxxx] [TS INS: from] Dran ... . About children's matters nothing is known to me [HW: _]nothing[HW: _]. No personnel of any kind were assigned to the children in the sealed freight cars [Viewagen] which at that time were filled with the old and the sick, but somehow they had to [get] into the trains. A survivor of these transports describes it as follows; Sometimes it happened that a room full of hundreds of children, who were seized by an [DEL: unbeherrbarenx] uncontrollable panic and terror, no longer followed the [pull/urging?] of the adults. They were not able to bring the children down, they had to already..... call [/summon], who carried the screaming children down in their arms. In Roettke's deportation files a record dated 11 Nov. 42 was found; 8....that Belgian railway workers found, in the empty freight cars returning from Auschwitz, 25 corpses of children, aged from 2 years to 4 years, who never [got] as far as the gas chamber. Question; You, or rather your office, were responsible for the transports up to the handover at the destination stations, what do you now have to say to these conditions? That I only learned of it today, that I know nothing of it. But for every ignorance one is responsible as the head of an office? [HW: [illegible] Cadem? Frenchmen [illegible]] [HW: ⊗] Fine, then I am simply responsible, nothing can be done about it. You already see for yourself that I had Dannecker relieved, from that one already sees that one was not satisfied with his work.--How the train was now unloaded in Auschwitz, for that I can do nothing..... whether the people now died on the outward journey, that I do not know, no person knows that. I was only responsible for the registration [/apprehension] and for the transportation. Yes but here, that was no orderly loading...... I have already said once in the Hungary case, that although the Hung. gov. [/the] [HW: [illegible]]

had been informed of the guidelines for rounding people up, the authorities often failed to follow them, which brought me complaints from the VWHA (SS Economic and Administrative Main Office). If the offices assigned to this in France did not follow the guidelines, then I must say that the supervisory authority can do no more than issue guidelines to be followed. Every member of the Security Police and the Security Service has sworn the service oath, and that oath includes obeying instructions and requirements. It cannot be my task, sitting in the central office, to inspect every single transport train personally on the spot. Subordinate offices must follow the instructions of their superiors. I must say, since I am speaking for Department IV, that everything on our side was done in a purely bureaucratic way, in accordance with the orders and instructions before us.

Questioner

But surely you in the central office must also notice that, of the transports from France, only 70 percent arrive alive at their destination?

Eichmann

70 percent?

Questioner

Of the transports from Holland, 80 percent arrived; of those from France, only 70 percent.

Eichmann

I am hearing the figure for Holland for the first time too: only 80 percent.

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

After the roundup, the trains departed as promptly as if according to a timetable. Between 19 and 28 July there were eight trains, and in August thirteen transports. The Gestapo statistics have survived. They show an average of 1,000 people per transport, with variations down to 149 at one end and up to 1,089 at the other. With the help of a fragment of the daily roll call for the Birkenau men’s camp, it is possible to trace the tragic end of the great roundup.

Questioner

[Further reading aloud, indistinct and fast.]

According to this, of those on the transports from France, only 70 out of 100 did not reach the camp at all.

Eichmann

I must consign this matter too to the realm of atrocity stories…

Questioner

One more piece of evidence:

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

for the transport that arrived on 20 July, the admission of 475, respectively 512–599 and 370 Jews from France was recorded in the Birkenau men’s camp.

Eichmann

Admission or taking them over?

Questioner

Admission.

Open page image and German
Page 527 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 527 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Die Richtlinien zur Erfassung bekannt gegeben worden waren, sich aber die Organe oftmals sich nicht an diese Richtlinien hielten, was mir Beanstandungen seitens des VWHA eintrug. Wenn sich die dafür beauftragten Stellen in Frankreich sich nicht an die Richtlinien hielten, dann muß ich dazu sagen, mehr kann ja die Dienstaufsichtsbehörde nicht tun, als daß sie Richtlinie heraus gibt, nach denen zu verfahren ist. Denn soweit es sich um Angeh. der Sipo und des SD handelt, hat ja ein jeder den Diensteid geleistet und der Diensteid umschließt auch, daß den Weisungen und Anforderungen zu gehorchen ist. Es kann nicht meine Aufgabe. als in der Zentralstelle sitzend, sein, jeden einzelnen Transportzug, hier persönlich in Lokalaugenschein zu nehmen. Es ist Aufgabe der nachgeordneten Stellen, sich an die Weisungen der vorgeordneten Stellen zu halten. Ich muß sagen, weil ich ja für das Amt IV spreche, daß von uns aus alles rein bürokratisch gemäß den vorliegenden Anordnungen und Weisungen geschah. Aber es muß doch auch bei Ihnen in der Zentralstelle auffallen, daß von den Transporten aus Frankreich, nur 70% lebend ankommen an dem Bestimmungsort? 70% Von den Transporten aus Holland kamen 80% an, von denen aus Frankreich nur 70%. Das von Holland höre ich aber auch zum ersten Mal, nur 80% Nach der Razzie gingen die Züge so schnell wie nach einem Fahrplan ab. Zwischen 19. und 28 Juli gab es 8 Züge, im August 13 Transporte. Die Gestapestatistiken sind erhalten geblieben, sie weisen einen Durchschnitt von 1000 Pers für einen Transport auf, wobei es Schwankungen bis zu 149 nach einen und 1089 nach der anderen gab. Es ist möglich, mit Hilfe eines Fragmentes Birkenauers Tagesappell für das Männerlager dem tragischen Ende der großen Razzie nachzuspüren. (Weiteres Vorlesen, undeutlich und schnell) Wonach aus den Transporten aus Frankreich, nur 70:100/ins Lager kamen überhaupt nicht mehr. Ich muß auch diese Sache in der Reich der Greuelmär verweisen…… Noch ein Beweis; Bei den Transport der am 20 Juli anlangte, wurde die Aufnahme von 475, bzw. 512-599 und 370 Juden aus Frankreich im Birkenauer Männerlager verzeichnet. Die Aufnahme oder Übernahme? Die Aufnahme

Draft translation

2 Volume 53 [HW: 527] The guidelines for registration/apprehension had been made known, but the organs often did not adhere to these guidelines, wad [=which] brought me complaints on the part of the VWHA [sic]. If the offices commissioned for this in France did not adhere to the guidelines, then I must say to this, the supervisory authority can indeed do no more than issue a guideline according to which one is to proceed. For insofar as it concerns members of the Sipo and the SD, every single one has indeed sworn the service oath, and the service oath also encompasses that orders and requirements are to be obeyed. It cannot be my task, sitting in the central office, to personally take into ocular inspection here every single transport train. It is the task of the subordinate offices to adhere to the instructions of the superior offices. I must say, because I speak indeed for the Amt IV [Office IV], that from our side everything happened purely bureaucratically in accordance with the orders and instructions at hand. But it must indeed also be noticed by you in the central office, that of the transports from France, only 70% arrive alive at the destination? 70% Of the transports from Holland 80% arrived, of those from France only 70%. But the [figure] from Holland I also hear for the first time, only 80% After the raid the trains departed as fast as [if] according to a timetable. Between 19 and 28 July there were 8 trains, in August 13 transports. The Gestapo statistics have remained preserved, they show an average of 1000 persons for one transport, whereby there were fluctuations up to 149 toward the one and 1089 toward the other. It is possible, with the help of a fragment of Birkenau's daily roll-call for the men's camp, to trace the tragic end of the great raid. (Further reading aloud, indistinct and fast) [TS INS: not at all any more] According to which of the transports from France, only 70:100/ came into the camp. I must also relegate this matter to the realm of atrocity-tales...... One more proof; At the transport that arrived on 20 July, the admission of 475, respectively 512-599 and 370 Jews from France was recorded in the Birkenau men's camp. The admission or the taking-over? The admission

The others were probably killed because they were not fit for labor deployment. I would like to put the emphasis on the word: taking them over, or admission? A number X was admitted to the Birkenau camp, which belonged to Auschwitz; that is to say, admitted. But the transport, the handover of the transport, is not described at all.

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

But the witness Jenny Spritzer, who arrived on 21 July at the … camp, noticed nothing of a selection.

Eichmann

That is precisely the diabolical part. Where does this Jenny Spritzer live? She would be a good witness, then; they deliberately brought her in. They should not have included that sentence, for the name says it all. Here they want to cover up their lies for the casual reader who is not familiar with the details: here they have a witness. It should read as follows: he is speaking of admission figures. The author knows perfectly well that the people admitted to a concentration camp are those fit for work, who are assigned to a work process.

Before that came the decision: fit for work or not fit for work. The latter were liquidated by the VWHA (SS Economic and Administrative Main Office) on the order of the RF (Reichsführer-SS). To make this particular atrocity begin in France, and to draw the widest possible circles of the SS into these matters, he brings on a pseudo-witness, Jenny Spritzer, who now expressly claims that she heard nothing of a selection.

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

Between 18 and 16 August, the fact that the transports contained many children can be inferred from the admission of only 128, 140, 182 and 115 men respectively to the camp.

Eichmann

There he says again what I have just said. The author gives himself the lie: page 361 of Reitlinger’s book, The Final Solution. He also tries to drag the Security Police into the whole affair, to implicate the SS as a whole. But he counted on the reader’s stupidity or superficiality, or he was himself that superficial, and now he must put up with this revision. But let me say the following for general information: even if it had been so, I would still have had to disclaim responsibility on behalf of the central authority, because locally we had the Higher SS and Police Leader and the commander of the Security Police and Security Service with his staff. They had their instructions and their orders, and with that I close the matter as far as I am concerned.

[Typed fragment: By the end]

Open page image and German
Page 528 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 528 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Die anderen sind wahrscheinlich getötet worden, weil sie nicht arbeitseinsatzfähig waren – den Schwerpunkt möchte ich auf das Wort legen Übernahme oder Aufnahme? In das Lager Birkenau, das gehörte zu Auschwitz, wurde eine Zahl X aufgenommen, d.h. also aufgenommen. Aber der Transport, die Transportübergabe wird ja gar nicht geschildert. – Aber der Zeuge Jenny Spritzer (?), der am 21 Juli im …lager ankam, bemerkte nichts von einer Selektion Darin liegt ja gerade die Diabolik, – wo lebt denn die Jenny Spritzer, dann wäre sie eine gute Zeugin, die haben sie bewußt herangezogen. Diesen Satz hätten sie nicht mit hereinfügen dürfen denn Nomen ist Omen. Hier wollen sie für den flüchtigen Leser, der mit den Details nicht vertraut ist, ihre Lügen übertünchen, – hier haben sie einen Zeugen. Hier muß es heißen; Er spricht von Aufnahmezahlen – er weiß ganz genau von einem Kz der Autor, daß die aufgenommen Personen die arbeitsfähigen sind, die einem Arbeitsprozeß angegliedert sind.. Dem voraus ging die Entscheidung, arbeitsfähig oder nicht arbeitsfähig, letzter wurden gemäß des Befehls vom RF vom VWHA liquidiert. Damit nun die besondere Greuel schon in Frankreich ihren Anfang nehmen soll, und damit möglichst weite Kreise der SS in diese Sachen hinein gezogen werden können, läßt er eine Pseudozeugin Jenny Spritzer auffahren, die da nun ausdrücklich behauptet, von einer Selektion habe sie nichts vernommen. – Zwischen dem 18 und 16 August kann man die Tatsache, daß die Transporte viele Kinder enthielten, daraus entnehmen, weil nur 128 bzw. 140 – 182 bzw. 115 Männer in dem Lager aufgenommen wurden. Da sagt er schon wieder, was ich eben gesagt habe, – der Autor straft sich selbst Lügen, Seite 361 – Buch, Endlösung von Reitlinger. Er versucht auch die Sipo in die ganze Geschichte mit hinein zu ziehen, um die SS global auffahren zu lassen, hat aber mit der Dummheit oder mit der Oberflächlichkeit des Lesers gerechnet, oder er war selbst so oberflächlich gewesen – und muß sich jetzt diese Revidierung gefallen lassen. Aber ich sage zur allgemeinen Kenntniz folgendes; Selbst wenn es so gewesen wäre, dann mußte ich trotzdem die Verantwortung der Zentralinstanz von mir weisen, denn dazu hatten wir örtlich den Höh. SS und Pol. Führer, den Befehlshaber der SIPO und SD mit seinem Personal. Jene hatten ihre Weisungen und ihre Befehle und damit schließe ich für meinen Teil diese Sache ab. Bis Ende

Draft translation

3 Volume 53 [HW: 528] The others were probably killed because they were not fit for labor deployment-- I would like to place the emphasis on the word take-over or admission? Into the camp Birkenau, that belonged to Auschwitz, a number X was admitted, i.e. thus admitted. But the transport, the transport hand-over is not depicted at all.- But the witness [DEL: [illegible]] [HW: Jenny] Spritzer (?), who arrived at the camp on 21 July, noticed nothing of a selection Therein lies precisely the diabolical thing,-- where then does the Jenny Spritzer live, then she would be a good witness, they deliberately brought her in. This sentence they should not have been allowed to insert along with it for nomen est omen. Here they want, for the fleeting reader who is not familiar with the details, to whitewash their lies, --here they have a witness. Here it must read; He speaks of admission-figures--- he knows quite exactly [TS INS: of a concentration camp] the author, that the admitted persons are the ones fit for labor, who are attached to a labor process.. This was preceded by the decision, fit for labor or not fit for labor, the latter were liquidated in accordance with the order from the RF from the VWHA. So that now the particular atrocity should already take its beginning in France, and so that as wide as possible circles of the SS can be drawn into these matters, he brings up a pseudo-witness Jenny Spritzer, who now expressly claims that she heard nothing of a selection.-- Between the 18th and 16th August one can gather the fact that the transports contained many children from this, because only 128 or 140 --182 or 115 men were admitted into the camp. There he says once again what I just said, --the author gives himself the lie, page 361--book, Final Solution by Reitlinger. He also tries to drag the Sipo into the whole story, in order to let the SS appear globally, but has reckoned with the stupidity or with the superficiality of the reader, or he himself had been so superficial----and must I now put up with this revising. But I say for general knowledge the following; Even if it had been so, then I nonetheless had to reject the responsibility of the central authority from myself, for that we had locally the Higher SS and Pol. Leader, the Commander of the SIPO and SD with his personnel. Those had their instructions and their orders and with that I close this matter for my part. Until [HW: end]

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

By the end of August, 25,000 Jews had been deported from France, none from the unoccupied zone, very few from the provinces, and almost all from Paris. On 14 July Röthke had to cancel the transport from Bordeaux because the French police, who arrested only stateless Jews, could not round up more than 150 Jews. After all the trouble Eichmann had taken over the transport with the Reich Transport Ministry, he was indignant about this. Nothing like it had happened to him before; the affair was disgraceful. He did not want to report it to SS Grf. (Gruppenführer) Müller immediately, since he would otherwise disgrace himself. They would therefore have to consider dropping France altogether as a country from which people were to be deported.

Questioner

[Handwritten annotation below the paragraph: ….]

Here again is a number:

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

IMD 7 S…

Questioner

.

That could be the voyage of a naval minesweeper in some grid square in the Baltic…

Questioner

Can you not remember your annoyance? Do you not know about this matter?

Eichmann

No, I do not know about it.

Questioner

But you did admit that you had a great deal of trouble in France.

Eichmann

I had trouble everywhere, particularly in France, but with Dannecker…

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

In August 1942 Röthke’s efforts to carry out the deportations of Jews from France were then continued on an increased scale.

Eichmann

I said even then that France had always been a rotten egg.

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

By the end of August about 7,000 Jews, and by the beginning of September about 9,000, had been arrested and brought to Dran….

Röthke then expressed the hope that he would deport 52,000 Jews from France.

Questioner

Have you never heard of the problem of naturalizations after 1933?

Eichmann

Yes, of course. That was also part of my discussions with Knochen and Oberg.

Questioner

That hope of deporting 52,000 Jews was surely illusory at the time.

Do you know anything about the deportation of Leo Blum?

Eichmann

Where did he go? To Oranienburg. He had a little villa there.

Questioner

Here it says:

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

On 23 September it was telegraphed to Eichmann, Glücks and Rudolf Höss, the butcher of Auschwitz: “The brother of the former French prime minister has been deported on today’s transport.”

Open page image and German
Page 529 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 529 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Bis Ende August waren 25000 Juden aus Frankreich deportiert, keine aus der unbesetzten Zone, nur sehr wenige aus der Provinz, fast alle aus Paris. Am 14 Juli mußte Röttke den Transport aus Bordeaux absagen, weil die franz. Pol. die nur staatenlose Juden festnahm, nicht mehr als 150 Juden aufzubringen in der Lage war. Nach all der Mühe, die sich Eichmann bzgl. der Transport mit dem Reichsverkehrsminist. gegeben hat, war er über diese Tatsache entrüstet. – So etwas sei ihm bisher noch nicht vorgekommen, die Angelegenheit sei blamable. Er wolle SS Grf. Müller noch nicht gleich Mitteilung machen, da er sich sonst selbst blamiere. man müsse sich daher überlegen, ob man Frankreich nicht überhaupt als Abfuhrland fallen lassen solle Hier auch wieder eine Zahl IMD 7 S…… (?) Das kann die Fahrt eines Marineräumbootes sein auf irgendeinem Planquadrat in Ostsee….. Können Sie sich nicht an Ihren Ärger erinnern? Ist Ihnen diese Angelegenheit nicht bekannt? Nein, sie ist mir nicht bekannt aber haben doch zugegeben, daß Sie sehr viel Ärger hatten in Frankreich. Ich hatte überall Ärger, in Frankreich wohl ganz besonders, aber mit Dannecker – – Im August 42 wurden dann die Bemühungen von Röttke im verstärkten Maß fortgesetzt, die Judendeportationen aus Frankreich durchzuführen. Ich habe schon damals gesagt, Frankreich ist immer ein faules Ei gewesen. Bis Ende August waren etwa 7000 und bis Anfang Sept. waren ungefähr 9000 Juden festgenommen und nach Dran… gebracht. Röttke sprach damals die Hoffnung aus, er wurde 52 000 Juden aus Frankreich deportieren. Haben Sie nie von dem Problem der Einbürgerung nach 33 gehört? Ja, doch, das war ja auch mit bei meinen Besprechungen mit Knochen und Oberg gewesen Diese Hoffnung auf den Abtransp. von 52 000 Juden war doch damals illusorisch Ist Ihnen etwas bekannt über den Abtransport von Leo Blum? Wo kam der hin?…… Nach Oranienburg. Er hatte dort eine kleine Villa Hier heißt es; Am 23 Sept. telegrafierte an Eichmann, Glücks, und Rudolf Höß, dem Schlächter von Auschwitz, der Bruder des ehem. franz. Minist. Präs. ist mit dem heutigen Transport, abgeschoben worden.

Draft translation

4 Band 53 [HW: 529] Until the end of August 25000 Jews had been deported from France, none from the unoccupied zone, only very few from the province, almost all from Paris. On 14 July Roettke had to cancel the transport from Bordeaux, because the French police, which arrested only stateless Jews, was not in a position to raise more than 150 Jews. After all the trouble that Eichmann had taken regarding the transport with the Reich Transport Ministry, he was indignant over this fact.--Something like this had never happened to him before, the matter was disgraceful. He did not yet want to make a report to SS Gruf. Mueller right away, since otherwise he himself would be disgraced. one must therefore consider whether France should not be dropped altogether as a country of removal [HW: [illegible]] Here again a number IMD 7 S....... (?) That could be the voyage of a naval minesweeper on some grid square in the Baltic Sea..... Can you not remember your annoyance? Is this matter not known to you? No, it is not known to me but you did admit that you had a great deal of trouble in France. I had trouble everywhere, in France quite especially so, but with Dannecker--- In August 42 the efforts of Roettke to carry out the Jew deportations from France were then continued to an increased degree. I said already back then, France has always been a rotten egg. Until the end of August about 7000 and by the beginning of Sept. approximately 9000 Jews had been arrested and brought to Dran......... . Roettke expressed the hope at that time that he would deport 52 000 Jews from France. Have you never heard of the problem of naturalization after 33? Yes, indeed, that was also among my discussions with Knochen and Oberg This hope for the removal of 52 000 Jews was surely illusory at that time Is anything known to you about the removal of Leo Blum? Where did he go to?...... To Oranienburg. He had a small villa there Here it says; On 23 Sept. telegraphed to Eichmann, Gluecks, and Rudolf Hoess, the butcher of Auschwitz, that the brother of the former French Prime Minister has been deported with today's transport.

I know nothing about that. But telephone calls and telegrams are being thrown around here…

We did not communicate with one another by telephone or telegram. We could communicate by teleprinter, or, if it was very urgent, there was a flash-priority teleprinter message, or the usual normal business correspondence. We knew no other way, particularly when GRS (secret Reich matters) were involved.

Questioner

In connection with these naturalizations, do you know of a visit by Röthke to Lavalle?

Eichmann

No, I know nothing about it. And I believe Lavalle would never have received Röthke, any more than he would have received a Dannecker. He probably would not even have received me straight away, because that was what the German envoy was there for. Now, at that time the German envoy does not deal with a Röthke; he deals with the Higher SS and Police Leader, or, in his absence, perhaps with the commander of the Security Police and Security Service, but never with a desk officer. Lavalle would have demeaned himself utterly.

Questioner

Then he left you very much in the dark, because Röthke did visit Lavalle; a date is even given.

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

He wanted to bring about the revocation of naturalizations granted since 1933.

The commissioner for Jewish affairs in France, the commissar… prepared the draft of a decree and submitted it to Lavalle. This dragged on from 1942 into the middle of 1943, and Röthke pressed Knochen at regular intervals to initiate action to induce Lavalle to revoke these naturalizations.

Eichmann

No, I know nothing about that.

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

Finally, on 14 August 1943, Röthke succeeded in obtaining an interview with Lavalle himself.

Eichmann

I now want to add a safeguard for myself concerning the assertion I just made, because it is an assertion, though one that accords with practice: namely, that the French commissioner for Jewish affairs could certainly have had access to Lavalle; I cannot judge that. And now I reason as follows: either it suited the commissioner for Jewish affairs to take Röthke along, or Röthke persuaded him to take him along when the commissioner had to report to Lavalle.

Open page image and German
Page 530 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 530 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Davon ist mir nichts bekannt. Aber hier wirft man mit Telefonaten und Telegrammen um sich… Wir verkehrten nicht mit einander per Telefon oder Telegramm, wir konnten uns mit Hilfe eines Fernschreibers verständigen… oder wenn es ganz dringend war, dann gab es einen Blitz FS oder es gab die übliche normale Geschäftskorrespondenz. Was anderes kannte man nicht, besonders dann nicht, wenn es sich um GRS Sachen handelte. Ist Ihnen bzgl dieser Sache der Einbürgerung von einem Besuch Röttkes bei Lavalle bekannt? Nein, davon ist mir nichts bekannt… Und ich glaube, daß Lavalle Röttke nie empfangen hätte, genau so wenig, wie er einen Dannecker empfangen hätte. Er hätte wahrscheinlich auf Anhieb, nicht einmal mich empfangen, denn dazu war der deutsche Gesandte da… Nun der deutsche Gesandte hat zu dieser Zeit ja nicht mit einem Röttke zu tun, sondern er mit dem Höh. SS und Pol. Führer zu tun, falls noch in dessen Abwesenheit noch mit dem Befehlshaber der SIPO und SD, aber nie mit einem Referenten. Da hätte sich ja Lavalle bis in den tiefsten Untergrund erniedrigt. Dann hat er Sie aber sehr im Unklaren gelassen, denn Röttke war bei Lavalle, es wird ja sogar ein Datum angegeben. – Er wollte den Widerruf bzgl der Einbürgerung seit 33 veranlassen. Der Judenbeauftragte in Frankreich, der Kommissar. … bereitete den Entwurf einer Verordnung vor, und legte den Lavalle vor. Das zog sich dann von 42 auf Mitte 43 hin und Röttke drängte in regelmäßig Abständen Knochen um eine Aktion einzuleiten, um Lavalle zum Widerruf bzgl dieser Einbürgerung zu veranlassen. Darüber ist mir nichts bekannt, nein…. Schließlich gelang es Röttke am 14 Aug. 1943 eine Unterredung mit Lavalle selbst zu erlangen, Ich will nun für mich noch einen Sicherheitsriegel einbauen für die Behauptung die ich eben sagte…denn es ist eine Behauptung, die allerdings der Praxis entspricht…nämlich daß der franz. Judenkommissar sicherlich Zutritt bei Lavalle haben konnte, das kann ich nicht beurteilen,… und jetzt kalkuliere ich so, daß es entweder im Sinne des Judenkommissars war, Röttke mit sich zu nehmen, oder daß Röttke ihn soweit brachte, daß er ihn mit sich nahm, falls der Judenkommissar Lavalle Bericht erstatten mußte.

Draft translation

[HW: 530] Of that nothing is known to me. But here one throws around telephone calls and te-legrams........ We did not communicate with one another by telephone or telegram, we could reach an understanding with the xix help of a teleprinter... or when it was quite urgent, then there was a Blitz FS [flash telex] or there was the usual xxixx normal business correspondence. Anything else one did not know, especially not then, when it concerned GRS [secret Reich matters] affairs. Is anything known to you regarding this matter of the naturalization about a visit of Röttke to Laval? No, of that nothing is known to me........ And I believe that Laval would never have received Röttke., just as little as he would have received a Dannecker. He would probably, straight off, not even have received me, for the German envoy was there for that... Now the German envoy at this time does not have to deal with a Röttke, but rather he deals with the Higher SS and Police Leader, if in the latter's absence still with the Commander of the SIPO and SD, but never with a desk officer [Referent]. There Laval would indeed have lowered himself into the deepest underground. But then he left you very much in the dark, for Röttke was with Laval, a date is even given.-- He wanted to bring about the revocation regarding the naturalization since [19]33. [HW: [illegible]] The Jewish commissioner in France, the Commissar. ... prepared the draft of an ordinance, and laid it before Laval. This then dragged on from [19]42 into the middle of [19]43 and Röttke pressed Knochen at regular [HW: ger] intervals to initiate an action, in order to induce Laval to the revocation regarding this naturalization. About that nothing is known to me, no.... Finally Röttke succeeded on 14 Aug. 1943 in obtaining a conversation with Laval himself, I now want to build in for myself yet a safety-bolt for the assertion which I just made...for it is an assertion, which however corresponds to the practice....namely that the French Jewish commissar certainly could have access to Laval, that I cannot judge,..... and now I calculate thus, that it was either in the interest of the Jewish commissar to take Röttke along with him, or that Röttke brought him so far that he took him along with him, in case the Jewish commissar had to render a report to Laval.

I do not wish to dispute that. The first is the usual practice; the second would be an exception.

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

Now the interview took place at a very unfavorable time. In the meantime German troops had occupied the parts of France that had until then been unoccupied, but…

besides, in Lavalle’s eyes Röthke was not a man of any importance.

Eichmann

That is exactly what I just told you. It would have been understandable if Lavalle had thrown Röthke out.

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

For that reason he was anything but accommodating to Röthke. He told him he was angry with… those are commissioners for Jewish affairs… because they had drawn up drafts for a decree under which women and children were to be deprived of their citizenship. Lavalle then mentioned to Röthke, more or less in passing, that he had lost his copy of the draft. Before a new draft could be submitted to the council of ministers, three months would have to pass so that

[Difficult to understand on the recording: “right” / “that”.]

the Jews could have made their changes, even if 30 Jews should have the right to do so. Unless all these conditions were met, Lavalle said, the French police could not support Knochen in any way. Besides, the Italians would have to be asked.

After this very embarrassing interview, Röthke did then have to report that he would need more German police.

Eichmann

So it is true after all: the commissioner for Jewish affairs took him along.

Röthke had no authority to do that whatsoever. It is a lapse that cannot be blamed on the RSHA (Reich Security Main Office); the blame falls primarily on the commander…

Questioner

Here is something typical of this book: the unclear evidence. Here it says: “

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

Undated record, translated in Poliakoff

Questioner

”, the author of the other book.

[Overlapping talk.]

In my opinion, Röthke should have reported his interview with Lavalle to you.

Eichmann

He did not do that. If that were so, it would also be a lapse by Knochen and by the Higher SS and Police Leader. For how can I, as BDS (commander of the Security Police and Security Service), allow some desk officer, a subordinate, to go to the highest authority in the country, the authority with whom I have to negotiate? No… When, for example, I was in Slovakia and spoke with Tisso, Tisso had asked to speak with me, with me, who came from Berlin,

Open page image and German
Page 531 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 531 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Das möchte ich nicht in Abrede stellen. Das erste ist die Gepflogenheit, das zweite wäre eine Ausnahme. Nun fand die Unterredung in einer recht ungünstigen Zeit statt, inzwischen waren von den deutschen Truppen bisdahin die unbesetzten Teile von Frankreich besetzt, aber… außerdem war Röttke in Lavalles Augen kein Mann von irgendwelcher Bedeutung. A: Das ist ja das, was ich Ihnen eben sagte, es wäre verständlich gewesen, wenn Lavalle Röttke rausgeschmissen hätte. Aus diesem Grund, war er Röttke alles andere als entgegenkommend. – Er teilte ihm mit, daß er über…. das sind Judenkommissare wütend sei, weil die den Entwürfe zu einer Verordnung ausgearbeitet hätten, wo Frauen und Kinder ihre Staatsbürgerschaft beraubt werden sollen. So von ungefähr erwähnte Lavalle Röttke dann gegenüber, daß er seine Ausfertigung des Entwurfes verloren habe. Bevor einer neuer Entwurf dem Minister rat vorgelegt werden könne, müßten drei Monate vergehen, damit die Juden ihre Änderungen gemachte haben können, auch wenn 30 Juden das Recht dazu haben sollten Ohne daß alle diese Voraussetzungen erfüllt seien, so sagte Lavalle, könnte die franz Pol. Knochen in keiner Weise unterstützen. Außerdem müßte man die Italiener fragen. – – – Nach dieser sehr peinlichen Unterredung mußte Röttke dann doch berichten, daß er mehr deutsche Polizei benötigen würde… A: Da stimmt es also doch, da hat ihn der Judenkommissar mitgenommen. Dazu hatte Röttke überhaupt keine Berechtigung. Das ist ein Lapsus, der nicht dem RSHA in die Schuhe zu schieben ist, sondern den trifft in erster Linie den Befehlshaber… Hier ist typisch für dieses Buch, die unklare Beweise… hier heißt es, Umdadierte Aufzeichnung, – übersetzt bei Poliakoff (?) – der ist der Autor des anderen Buches. (Durcheinander) Meiner Ansicht nach, hätte Röttke Ihnen von der Unterredung mit Lavalle berichten müssen… A: Das hat er nicht getan… Wenn dem so wäre, wäre es auch ein Lapsus von Knochen und auch ein Lapsus vom Höh SS und Pol. Führer… Denn wie kann ich zulassen als BDS, daß irgendein Referent, ein Nachgeordneter, zu der höchsten Autorität des Landes geht, mit der ich zu verhandeln habe? Nein… als ich zB in der Slowakei war und mit Tisso (?) sprach, da hat Tisso gewünscht mit mir zu sprechen… mit mir der ich aus Berlin kam,

Draft translation

6 Volume 53 [HW: 531] I do not wish to dispute that. The first is the customary practice, the second would be an exception. Now the discussion took place at a really unfavorable time, in the meantime [TS INS: up to then] the unoccupied parts of France had been occupied by the German troops, but........ besides, Roettke was in Lavalle's eyes no man of any importance. That is exactly what I just told you, it would have been understandable, if Lavalle had thrown Roettke out.. For this reason, he was anything but accommodating toward Roettke. -He informed him that he over.... [TS INS: the about a decree,] these are Jewish commissars was furious, because they had drawn up the drafts, in which women and children were to be deprived of their citizenship. So more or less Lavalle then mentioned to Roettke, that he had lost his copy of the draft. Before a new draft could be submitted to the council of ministers, three months would have to pass, so that [TS INS: (correct/that) poorly legible)] the Jews can have made their changes, even if 3o Jews should have the right to do so Without all these preconditions being fulfilled, so said Lavalle, the French pol. could in no way sup- port Knochen. Besides one would have to ask the Italians.--- After this very embarrassing discussion Roettke then did have to report, that he would need more German police... So then it is true after all, so the Jewish commissar took him along. For this Roettke had no authorization whatsoever. That is a lapse, which is not to be blamed on the RSHA, but rather it falls in the first place on the commander ........ Here is typical for this book, the unclear evidence ...... here it says, Redated record,-translated by Poliakoff(?)--he is the author of the other book. (Confusion/muddle) In my opinion, Roettke should have reported to you about the discussion with Lavalle.... He did not do that.....If that were so, it would also be a lapse of Knochen and also a lapse of the Higher SS and Pol. Leader.... For how can I permit as BDS, that any referent, a subordinate, goes to the highest authority of the country, with which I have to negotiate? No.........when for example I was in Slovakia and spoke with Tisso (?), then Tisso wished to speak with me...with me who came from Berlin,

But first I went to the envoy and discussed everything with him. Then, once I had reached an understanding with the envoy, I went to the Slovak interior minister. After seeing him, I went together with him to the head of state. That is how it is done.

Questioner

But did you not inform Berlin beforehand?

Eichmann

I do not know. Perhaps they wrote to me through the Foreign Office that the head of state wished to speak with me.

It cannot be done any other way. They could have locked me up, given the harm I could have caused. It has to be agreed first between the central authorities. What a stink it would have caused at the Foreign Office in Berlin if they had learned that a desk officer of the RSHA (Reich Security Main Office) was having an interview with the head of state of a friendly nation.

So, in answer to your question whether I had informed Berlin, I must tell you that I am convinced this had been prepared long in advance. Besides, a head of state cannot simply receive anyone he wants, as he pleases. There is protocol to be observed in one form or another.

Unknown speaker

Of course.

Questioner

But the conclusions drawn from this are interesting. The author presents Lavalle as a major factor in the failure of the Final Solution of the Jewish question in France.

[An article is read aloud.]

Eichmann

This author probably wants to tell the reader what a lofty standpoint he takes on this matter. He is not even capable of telling the truth for a single page…

Questioner

But from the interview between Röthke and Lavalle, whether it happened or not, we see that the measures against the Jews in France did fail…

Eichmann

Yes, I have always said so.

Questioner

Now, a very important matter in France is the Italian intervention.

Eichmann

I know nothing at all about that.

Questioner

Do you not know that the Italian military authorities in Croatia, Tunis and Greece have already been discussed, the ones who protect the Jews wherever possible?

Eichmann

Yes, I even believe Italian officers married Jewish women.

[We have already discussed this.]

Questioner

Were you not told that the Italian military administration, to the French police—

[Handwritten annotation at the right edge: ….]

Open page image and German
Page 532 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 532 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Da bin ich aber erst zum Gesandten gegangen und habe mit dem Gesandten alles besprochen und dann ging ich, nachdem ich mit dem Gesandten klar gekommen war, zu dem slow. Innenminister, nachdem ich bei ihm war, bin ich mit ihm zusammen zum Staatschef gegangen… So geht das… Aber Sie Berlin vorher nicht davon verständigt? Das weiß ich nicht, vielleicht hat man es mir geschrieben, über das ausw. Amt, daß der Staatschef mich zu sprechen wünsche. – Anders geht das nicht, man hätte mich einsperren können, denn was hätte ich für Unheil verzapfen können… daß muß doch in den Zentralinstanzen erst abgesprochen werden, was hätte das in Berlin beim ausw. Amt für einen Stunk gegeben, wenn sie in Erfahrung gebracht hätten, daß ein Referent des RSHA mit dem Staatschef einer befreundeten Nation eine Unterredung führt. Deshalb muß ich Ihnen sagen auf Ihre Frage, ob ich Berlin benachrichtigt hätte, – – – ich bin überzeugt, daß das von langer Hand vorbereitet gewesen ist. Außerdem kann ein Staatschef nun nicht gerade empfangen wen er nun will und wozu er gerade lustig ist, da ist ein Protokoll auf irgend eine Art und Weise zu beachten. Selbstverständlich… Aber interessant sind die Schlüsse die man daraus zieht. Der Autor stellt Lavalle als einen Hauptfaktor hin, der bei der Scheiterung der Endlösung der Judenfrage in Frankreich eine Rolle spielt. (Vorlesen eines Artikels – – – – –) Dieser Autor will wahrscheinlich dem Leser sagen, von welch hoher Warte aus er diese Sache betrachtet… er ist noch nicht einmal in der Lage eine Seite der Wahrheit entsprechend zu sprechen… Aber wir sehen aus der Unterredung Röttke mit Lavalle, ob Tatsache oder nicht daß doch die Judenmaßnahmen in Frankreich gescheitert sind… Ja, habe ich immer gesagt Nun eine sehr wichtige Angelegenheit in Frankreich ist die italienische Intervention; Darüber bin ich nun gar nicht im Bilde… Ist Ihnen nicht bekannt, daß man von den italienischen Militärbehörden bereits in Kroatien, Tunis, Griechenland gesprochen hat? – die die Juden schützen wo es möglich ist… Ja, ich glaube sogar daß italienische Offiziere Jüdinnen heirateten. (Haben wir schon besprochen) Ist Ihnen nicht berichtet worden, daß die Italienische Militärverwaltung der franz. Polizei

Draft translation

[HW: 532] But there I first went to the envoy and discussed everything with the envoy and then I went, after I had come to an understanding with the envoy, to the Slov[ak] Interior Minister, after I was with him, I went together with him to the head of state.... So it goes... But you [did] not inform Berlin of it beforehand? That I do not know, perhaps they wrote to me, via the Foreign Office, that the head of state wished to speak with me.-- It cannot be done otherwise, they could have locked me up, for what mischief could I have caused...that must after all first be agreed in the central authorities, what a stink that would have caused in Berlin at the Foreign Office, if they had learned that [DEL: [illegible]] [TS INS: a desk officer of the RSHA is holding a] conversation [with the] head of state of a friendly nation. Therefore I must tell you in answer to your question, whether I would have notified Berlin,---I am convinced that this had been prepared long in advance. Besides, a head of state cannot exactly receive whomever he wants and whenever he just feels like it, there a protocol is to be observed in some way or another. Of course...... But interesting are the conclusions one draws from it. The author p[or]trays Lavalle as a main factor who plays a role in the failure of the final solution of the Jewish question in France. (Reading aloud of an article-----) This author probably wants to tell the reader from what a lofty vantage point he views this matter.....he is not even in a position to speak one side of the truth correspondingly......... But we see from the conversation Roettke with Lavalle, whether fact or not, that indeed the Jewish measures in France have failed...... Yes, I have alwa/ys said [so] Now a very important matter in France is the Italian intervention; About that I am really not at all in the picture...... Is it not known to you that the Italian military authorities have already spoken in Croatia, Tunis, Greece?--who protect the Jews where it is possible.... Yes, I even believe that Italian officers married Jewesses. (We have already discussed this) Has it not been reported to you that the Italian military administration [to] the French police [HW: [illegible]]

Questioner

…when they wanted to take measures against the Jews in the Italian-occupied zone, stayed their hand and protected the Jews? Were you not told about it? In Nice. … (?)

I can no longer remember that today.

Questioner

Were you also not told that the Italians did not keep their promises to take measures against the Jews, but did the opposite?

Eichmann

But how many Jews can there really have been there? That region cannot accommodate all that many, can it?

Questioner

Yes, but the Jews fled there because they knew the Italians would protect them.

Eichmann

At any rate, it has not remained firmly in my memory.

Questioner

It even says here that

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

the Gestapo assumed most of the Jews had fled into the territory occupied by Italy.

Questioner

The Gestapo—who is that in this case? Eichmann?

Eichmann

It could just as well be Knochen.

Questioner

Does the name Los…, the chief of the Italian police in the occupied territories, mean anything to you?

Eichmann

No.

Questioner

Then you are badly informed about the incidents that occurred there.

[Reading aloud, indistinct.]

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

General Bastianini …? orders issued to General Ambrosio, unambiguous and forceful. …

This last maneuver clearly agitated Himmler, so that he sent Heinrich Müller …? to Rome. On 27 March 43, Müller learned that Los…, the Italian police chief in the occupied zone in southern France, had gone into the occupied zone a few days earlier, but Knochen’s inquiry about … came to nothing.

On 6 April, Knochen was so desperate that he turned by telegram not only to Eichmann but also to Schellenberg. He had learned from the Gestapo in Marseille that the Jews were positively streaming into the … zone.

Eichmann

If he did that by telegram, I cannot know about it either, since I never received telegrams.

Questioner

But surely someone must have told you that the Jews were fleeing into the Italian zone because they were protected there from being seized by the French and German police.

Open page image and German
Pages 533 to 534 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Pages 533 to 534 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Wenn sie Maßnahmen gegen die Juden ergreifen wollten in der ital. besetzten Zone, in den Arm fiel, die Juden schützte? Wurde Ihnen nicht berichtet? In Nizza. …(?) Ich kann mich heute nicht mehr daran erinnern. Wurde Ihnen auch nicht berichtet, daß die Italiener die Versprechen Maßnahmen gegen die Juden zu unternehmen nicht gehalten haben, das Gegenteil gemacht haben? Aber wieviel Juden mögen schon dort gewesen? So aufnahmefähig ist doch diese Gegend gar nicht? Ja, aber die Juden sind hingeflüchtet, weil sie wußten die Italiener werden sie schützen. Jedenfalls ist es mir nicht nachhaltig im Gedächtnis haften geblieben. Hier steht sogar, die Gestapo nahm an, daß die meisten Juden in das von Italien besetzte Gebiet geflohen waren. Die Gestapo, wer ist das in dem Fall? Eichmann? Kann ebenso gut Knochen sein Ist Ihnen der Namen Los… der Chef der italienischen Polizei in den besetzten Gebieten, bekannt? Nein, Da sind Sie aber schlecht unterrichtet über Fälle die dort vorgekommen sind?; Vorlesen, undeutlich… General Bastanini…??? ergangene Befehle an General Ambrosius, eindeutig und scharf… Dieses letzte Manöver setzte Himmler eindeutig in Aufregung, daß er Heinrich Müller,…??? nach Rom schickte. Am 27. März 43 erfuhr Müller, daß Los… Italienische Polizeichef in der besetzten Zone in Südfrankreich, einige Tage vorher in die besetzte Zone gefahren sei aber Knochens Nachfrage über … war ergebnislos. Am 6 April war Knochen so verzweifelt, daß er sich telegrafisch nicht nur an Eichmann sondern auch an Schellenberg wandte. Er habe von der Gestapo in Marseille erfahren, daß die Juden geradezu in die Zone strömten. Wenn er das telegrafisch gemacht hat, kann ich das auch nicht wissen, da ich ja Telegramme nie erhielt. Aber man wird Ihnen doch berichtet haben müssen, daß die Juden in die ital. Zone flüchteten, weil man sie dort vor den Zugriffen der franz und deutschen Pol. schützte.

Draft translation

8 Volume 53 When they wanted to take measures against the Jews in the [DEL: frxx] Ital. occupied zone, fell into the arm [i.e. stayed the hand], who protected the Jews? Were you not reported to? In Nice. ..... .(?) [HW: 533] [HW: F 34] I can no longer remember that today. Were you also not reported to, that the Italians did not keep the promises to undertake measures against the Jews, that they did the opposite? But how many Jews may there already have been there? This region is surely not so capable of taking [people] in at all? Yes, but the Jews fled there, because they knew the Italians will protect them. In any case it has not remained lastingly fixed in my memory. Here it even says, the Gestapo assumed that most Jews had fled into the territory occupied by Italy. The Gestapo, who is that in that case? Eichmann? Can just as well be Knochen Is the name Los.......the chief of the Italian police in the occupied territories, known to you? No, But there you are poorly informed about cases that occurred there?; Read aloud, indistinct..... GeneralBastanini.......??? orders issued to General Ambrosius, unambiguous and sharp..... This last maneuver clearly put Himmler into agitation, so that he Heinrich Mueller,....??? sent to Rome. On 27 March 43 Mueller learned that Los..... Italian police chief in the occupied zone in southern France, had driven into the occupied zone a few days earlier but Knochen's inquiry about. . ... was fruitless. On 6 April Knochen was so desperate that he turned by telegraph not only to Eichmann but also to Schellenberg. He had learned from the [HW: [illegible]] Gestapo in Marseille that the Jews were positively streaming into the [DEL: franz.] zone. If he did that by telegraph, I cannot know that either, since I indeed never received telegrams. But they must surely have reported to you, that the Jews fled into the [DEL: fx] Ital. zone, because there they were protected from the reach of the French and German pol. [police].

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

This flight of Jews was evidently financed by the director of the French-Italian bank. Los… appeared and disappeared again. Müller demanded that he be brought to Berlin. But Los… could not be found until May, when Röthke learned from the Gestapo in Marseille that the former police chief of Bari, which Los… had previously been, was living in a general’s uniform in the villa in …. He was the head of a commissariat for Jewish affairs, and his assistant was Donardi, that bank director, a half-Jew, living at such-and-such a place…

Questioner

[Further reading aloud.]

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

…that about 50,000 Jews were living in the Italian-occupied zone…

Questioner

That is why I am very surprised that you thought only very few Jews lived there.

How large was that zone?

Questioner

The whole of Altmarken, the city of Nice, with half a million inhabitants and its surroundings, and Renopel.

Eichmann

Then, when the Italian armed forces capitulated, those Jews must have been within our reach again…

Questioner

Do you remember nothing else about the matter?

Eichmann

No, but I think it is being considerably exaggerated… Embellished with poetic license. Whatever truth there may be in it is surely so insignificant, seen from the Reich’s perspective, that it was not so important to the Reich, and I no longer remember it today either. But I do not mean that I still remember everything of importance to the Reich.

Questioner

You then also sent Anton Brunner to Marseille to carry out large roundups of Jews.

Eichmann

When?

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

Although the German army only occupied Nice on 1 November, the plan to bring back the Jews from M… had made little progress. Only 2,000 had been taken there, and the rest were able to disperse among the mountain villages.

Questioner

[Typed topic cue: Röthke’s character.]

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

Röthke’s declarations mostly proved to be empty threats. Brunner could not organize a roundup without the help of the French police. All the registers of Jews were destroyed when the Italians withdrew, so that the good Brunner had to hunt for Jews in the street.

Open page image and German
Page 535 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 535 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Diese Flucht der Juden war offensichtlich von dem Direktor der franz-ital. Bank finanziert. Los… tauchte auf und verschwand wieder. Müller verlangte, daß er nach Berlin gebracht werden würde. Aber Los… konnte erst im Mai aufgefunden werden, als Röttke von der Gestapo in Marseille erfuhr, daß der ehem. Polizeichef von Bari, daß war Los… gewesen früher, in der Uniform eines Generals in der Villa in … lebe. Er war der Vorstand eines Kommissariats für jüd. Angelegenheiten und sein Gehilfe war Donardi, dieser Bankdirektor, Halbjude, wohnhaft, dort und dort… (Weiteres Vorlesen,… …daß ungefähr 50 000 Juden in der ital. besetzten Zone lebten … Deswegen wundert es mich sehr, daß Sie der Meinung waren, daß dort nur sehr wenig Juden gelebt haben…? Wie groß war denn diese Zone? Die gesamten Altmarken, die Stadt Nizza, mit 1/2 Mill Einwohner, mit Umgebung, und Renopel (?). A: Da müßten ja, als die ital. Wehrmacht kapitulierte, diese Juden für unseren Zugriff wieder da gewesen sein… Ist Ihnen von der Angelegenheit sonst nichts in Erinnerung? Nein… aber ich glaube, daß da doch ziemlich übertrieben wird… Mit dichterischer Freiheit entsprechend ausgeschmückt worden. Das Etwas, daß da daran wahr sein mag, ist sicherlich vom Reichshorizont ausgesehen, so kümmerlich, daß es gar nicht so Reichswichtig war, und mir heute auch nicht mehr erinnerlich ist. Damit weil ich aber nicht sagen, daß mir alle reichswichtigen Sachen heute noch in Erinnerung sind. Sie schickten ja dann auch Anton Brunner nach Marseille, um große Razzien auf die Juden zu machen Wann? Obwohl die deutsche Armee erst am 1.11. Nizza besetzten, hatte der Plan die Juden aus M… zurückzubringen, keine großen Fortschritte gemacht, nur 2000 hatte man hingeschafft und der Rest konnte sich in den Bergdörfern verteilen.. Bzgl. Charakter von Röttke; Röttkes Erklärungen erwiesen sich meist als leere Drohungen. Brunner gelang es nicht ohne Hilfe der franz Polizei eine Razzia in Gang zu bringen. Die gesamte Judenregister wurden vernichtet, als die Italiener sich zurückzogen, sodaß der gute Brunner angewiesen war, auf der Straße Jagd nach den Juden zu machen?????

Draft translation

9 Volume 53 [HW: 535] This flight of the Jews was evidently financed by the director of the French-Italian bank. Los..... surfaced and disappeared again. Mueller demanded that he be brought to Berlin. But Los... could only be located in May, when Roettke learned from the Gestapo in Marseille that the former police chief of Bari, that had been Los.... earlier, was living in the uniform of a general in the villa in. He was the head of a commissariat for Jewish affairs and his assistant was Donardi, this bank director, half-Jew, resident, there and there........ (Further reading aloud,..... .....that approximately 50,000 Jews lived in the Italian-occupied zone ..... That is why it surprises me very much that you were of the opinion that only very few Jews had lived there...? How large then was this zone? The entire Altmarken,, the city of Nice, with 1/2 million inhabitants, with surroundings, and Renopel(?).- Then, when the Italian Wehrmacht capitulated, these Jews must have been available again for our access... Do you otherwise remember nothing about the matter? No..... but I believe that this is being rather exaggerated... Embellished accordingly with poetic license. The something that may be true about it is certainly, seen from the Reich horizon, so paltry that it was not at all Reich-important, and is also no longer memorable to me today. By that, however, I do not want to say that all Reich-important matters are still in my memory today. You then also sent Anton Brunner to Marseille to carry out large raids on the Jews When? Although the German army only occupied Nice on 1.11., the plan to bring the Jews back from M..... had made no great progress, only 2000 had been transported there and the rest could disperse into the mountain villages.. Regarding the character of Roettke; Roettke's declarations proved mostly to be empty threats. Brunner did not succeed in getting a raid going without the help of the French police. The entire Jewish register was destroyed when the Italians withdrew, so that the good Brunner was directed to hunt for the Jews on the street?????

Yes, I know that; that is right. I still remember it…

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

When Eichmann appeared in Nice soon afterward with the German army, he was very disappointed at the small size of the haul, but he soon saw the explanation for it.

Eichmann

They were in the mountains…

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

He learned that 15,000 Jews were staying in the mountains, specifically in the mountains of the principality of Monaco…

Eichmann

Yes, that is right. I drove through Monaco myself.

Questioner

And what did you arrange there?

Eichmann

I could do nothing in Monaco itself… Taboo.

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

But on 23 September the German consul in Monaco received an order from the Foreign Office: access for the Security Police to the principality….

Eichmann

Yes, that is right, but it came to nothing…

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

But the consul was only able to find 1,000 Jews who had lived there for years. Eichmann would not give way and repeatedly insisted that 10,000 to 15,000 Jews must be there…

Eichmann

Yes, that is right.

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

In July 1944 the consul informed the Foreign Office, von Thadden, that most of the 1,000 Jews had escaped to Switzerland and Spain after Eichmann appeared on the scene. Forty-five Jews remained, all of them under special protection.

Eichmann

Yes, all of that is right. Word got around, and all the Jews left Monaco immediately…

Questioner

What do you consider the reasons why the planned Final Solution of the Jews in France failed so badly?

Eichmann

Two reasons. First, Dannecker’s lack of stature; Knochen’s being occupied with other official duties. Second, the resistance of the government, Lavalle, which flagged after an initial burst of enthusiasm, perhaps grew more cautious because of our military reverses and acted more quietly. Those are my reasons.

Questioner

Do you remember any figures for how many Jews were deported?

Eichmann

Going by instinct, I would put the number at about 40,000.

Questioner

A list was found in Röthke’s office, and according to that list 45 trains departed. The author estimates the number at 65,000.

Open page image and German
Page 536 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 536 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Ja, das weiß ich, das stimmt, daran entsinne ich mich noch… Als Eichmann bald darauf mit der deutschen Armee in Nizza auftauchte, war er über das geringe Ausmaß der Beute sehr enttäuscht – aber erkannte bald wo die Erklärung dafür lag. Die waren in den Bergen… Er erfuhr, daß sich 15 000 Juden in den Bergen aufhielten und zwar in den Bergen von dem Fürstentum Monaco… Ja, das stimmt, ich bin selber durch Monaco durchgefahren Und was haben Sie dort veranlaßt? In Monaco selber konnte ich nichts machen … tabu Aber am 23. Sept erhielt der deutsche Konsul in Monaco vom ausw. Amt den Auftrag der Sipo den Zutritt zu dem Fürstentum. .. Ja, das stimmt, aber es verlief negativ… Aber der Konsul war nur in der Lage 1000 Juden zu finden, die dort schon seit Jahren ansässig waren, aber Eichmann gab nicht nach und verwies immer wieder darauf daß 10-15 000 Juden da sein müßten… Ja, das stimmt Im Juli 44 teilte der Konsul dem ausw. Amt mit, von Thadden, daß die meisten der 1000 Juden, nach dem Eichmann auf den Plan getreten war, in die Schweiz, nach Spanien… entkommen waren. Übrig bleiben 45 Juden, die alle unter besonderem Schutz standen. Ja, das stimmt alles, das hatte sich rumgesprochen und sämtliche Juden sind sofort ab von Monaco… Was halten Sie für die Gründe, daß die geplante Endlösung der Juden in Frankreich so gescheitert ist? 2 Gründe; 1. die mangelnde Größe von Dannecker. Die anderwärtige dienstliche Inanspruchnahme Knochens. 2. Die Resistenz der Reg, Lavalle, die nach einem Anfangselan erlahmte, vielleicht durch das Mißgeschick unserer Waffen vorsichtiger wurde und leiser trat.. Das sind meine Gründe. Ist Ihnen zahlenmäßig etwas in Erinnerung, wieviel Juden deportiert wurden? Fingerspitzengefühlsmäßig möchte ich die Zahl so auf 40 000 beschreiben Aus dem Büro von Röttke ist eine Liste gefunden worden, und nach dieser Liste gingen 45 Züge ab. – Der Autor schätzt die Zahl auf 65 000.

Draft translation

Yes, I know that, that is correct, I still remember that... When Eichmann showed up in Nice shortly afterward with the German army, he was very disappointed about the small extent of the loot--but he soon recognized where the explanation for it lay. They were in the mountains.... He learned that 15,000 Jews were staying in the mountains, and indeed in the mountains of the Principality of Monaco..... Yes, that is correct, I myself drove through Monaco And what did you arrange there? In Monaco itself I could do nothing.... taboo But on 23 Sept the German consul in Monaco received from the Foreign Office the order [to grant] the Sipo access to the Principality... Yes, that is correct, but it went negatively... But the consul was only in a position to find 1000 Jews who had already been resident there [DEL: xxxxx] igx for years, but Eichmann did not give in and pointed again and again to the fact that 10-15,000 Jews had to be there... Yes, that is correct In July 44 the consul informed the Foreign Office, von Thadden, that most of the 1000 Jews, after Eichmann had come onto the scene, into Switzerland, to Spain.... had escaped. Remaining are 45 Jews, who all stood under special protection. Yes, that is all correct, that had got around and all the Jews are immediately off from Monaco... What do you consider to be the reasons that the planned final solution of the Jews in France so failed [DEL: xx]? 2 reasons; 1. the lacking size [greatness] of Dannecker. The other official commandeering of Knochen. 2. The resistance of the government, Laval, which slackened after an initial élan, perhaps became more cautious through the misfortune of our weapons and trod more softly.. Those are my reasons. Is anything in your memory numerically, how many Jews were deported? By a feel of the fingertips [gut feeling] I would like to describe the number at around 40,000 From the office of Röttke a list has been found, and according to this list 45 trains departed.-The author estimates the number at 65,000.

So, if 75 trains are supposed to have departed and the author arrives at 65,000, that means there were trains carrying fewer than 1,000. And the claim that there were trains carrying fewer than 1,000 does not really make sense to me. From the standpoint of timetabling I would not want to endorse it. So he says 65,000 and I say 40,000; let us say about 50,000.

Questioner

What was the Gestapo’s program in France for expulsion? Its purpose?

Eichmann

What I am saying now applies not only to France but also to the other countries in which Germany had an interest for security reasons. The Jew had been declared an enemy of the state by the lawful German government of the Reich. The government must have had its reasons for seeking to eliminate this enemy as its highest priority. Once the order to eliminate an enemy of the Reich had been given, it had to be carried out. The government’s reasons for seeing in this enemy a threat to the people and the state were the government’s business. We, as the police, had to act accordingly…

Questioner

We have discussed that so often already. I am interested in France. Can you give anything more precise in figures?

Eichmann

I told you earlier that the failure to achieve the result was also our fault, but I also mentioned resistance as a second point. I will explain that further. The farther west you go from the center of Europe, the greater the influence of the assimilation-minded Jew compared with the other Jewish political tendencies. The French citizen does not see a Jew, a menace, a danger or an enemy in the Jew who has, at least outwardly, renounced all Jewish ties and now lived and worked as a citizen of the republic.

He sees him as one of his own kind. In such a country it is very difficult to convince the population that the assimilation-minded section of the Jews whom we regarded as enemies is among its own bitterest enemies, because everyday life tells it the opposite. So, certainly, from Pétain to Lavalle, down to the last French peasant, or as far as the mountains of … it made it a sort of duty for him that he must keep these [unresolved word: fraguten] French citizens out of the reach of the Bo….

[This sentence is not entirely clear.]

There was another difficulty.

Open page image and German
Page 537 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 537 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Wenn also 75 Züge abgegangen sein sollen und der Autor auf 65000 schließt, dann heißt das, daß es Züge gegeben hat unter 1000. Und das es Züge gegeben haben soll, unter 1000, das will mir nicht so recht einleuchten. Das möchte ich vom Fahrplantechn. Standpunkt aus nicht recht unterschreiben. – Er sagt also 65 000 – ich 40 000, also sagen wir rund 50 000 F: Was war das Programm der Gestapo in Frankreich für die Aussiedlung Der Sinn? A: Das was ich jetzt sage, trifft nicht nur für Frankreich zu auch für die anderen Länder, soweit Deutschland aus Sicherheitsgründen Interesse hatte. Der Jude war von der gesetzmäßigen deutschen Reichsregierung als Staatsfeind proklamiert – Die Regierung mußte ihre Gründe haben, warum sie diesen Feind vordringlichst zu eleminieren bestrebet war. Nun einmal der Befehl zur Eleminierung eines Reichsfeindes gegeben ward, mußte dieser Befehl auch durchgeführt werden. Welche Gründe die Reichsregierung hatte, um in diesem Feind die Bedrohung des Volkes und Staates zu sehen, war Aufgabe der Regierung gewesen, wir, als die Polizei hatten entsprechend zu verfahren gehabt… F: Davon haben wir schon so oft gesprochen… mich interessiert Frankreich. Können Sie zahlenmäßig nichts näheres angeben? A: Wenn ich Ihnen vorhin sagte, daß die Schuld auch auf unserer Seite lag, daß das Ergebnis nicht erreicht wurde, als zweiten Punkt aber auch noch die Resistenz nannte… so will ich Ihnen das noch erklären. Je mehr Sie von der Mitte Europas nach Westen kommen, um so größer ist der Einfluß des asimil. eingestellten Juden, im Hinblick auf die übrigen jüd. polit. Richtungen. Der franz. Bürger sieht in dem Juden, der sich, wenigstens äußerlich von allen jüd. Bindungen losgesagt hat und nun als Bürger der Republik lebte und wirkte, keinen Juden, keine Bedrohnis, keine Gefahr, keinen Feind. Er sieht ihn, als seinesgleichen. Es ist sehr schwer in einem solchen Land, dem Volk in dem der asimil. eingestellte Teil, von uns als Feind anerkannten Juden, ihn als seinen mit ärgsten Feind, glaubhaft zu machen, weil die Lebenspraxis ihm das Contaere sagt. So hat sicherlich von Petain angefangen, über Lavalle bis zum letzten franz. Bauer, oder bis zu den Bergen von… es ihm gewissermaßen zur Verpflichtung gemacht daß er diese fraguten, farnz Bürger, dem Zugriff der Bo… entziehen muß. (Dieser Satz ist nicht ganz klar…) Da lag wieder eine Schwierigkeit

Draft translation

11 Volume 53 [HW: 537] If, then, 75 trains are supposed to have departed, and the author concludes 65,000, then that means there must have been trains under 1,000. And that there are supposed to have been trains under 1,000, that does not quite make sense to me. From the timetable-technical standpoint I would not quite subscribe to that.—He says thus 65,000—I 40,000, so let us say roughly 50,000 What was the program of the Gestapo in France for the resettlement The purpose? What I am now saying does not apply only to France but also to the other countries, insofar as Germany had an interest for reasons of security. The Jew had been proclaimed by the lawful German Reich government as [DEL: [?Jew?]] [TS INS: enemy of the state]—The government must have had its reasons why it strove most urgently to eliminate x this enemy. Now, once the order for the elimination of an enemy of the Reich was given, this order also had to be carried out. What reasons the Reich government had, to see in this enemy the threat to the people and state, had been the task of the government; we, as the police, had to proceed accordingly...... We have spoken of that so often already.... France interests me. Can you give nothing more precise in terms of numbers? If I told you earlier that the fault also lay on our side, that the result was not achieved, but as a second point also named the resistance... then I will explain that to you further. The more you come from the middle of Europe toward the West, the greater is the influence of the assimilation-minded Jew, in regard to the remaining Jewish political tendencies The French citizen sees in the Jew, who has, at least outwardly, renounced all Jewish ties and now lived and worked as a citizen of the Republic, no Jew, no menace, no danger, no enemy. He sees him as one of his own kind. It is very difficult in such a [TS INS: to the people] country, in which the assimilation-minded part, recognized by us as enemy [DEL: [?enemy?]] [TS INS: Jews], to make [him] credible as his most bitter enemy [DEL: [?with?]] his, because the practice of life tells him the contrary. Thus certainly, beginning from Petain, through Lavalle down to the last French peasant, or down to the mountains of.... it made it, so to speak, into an [TS INS: obligation made] that he must withdraw these [fraguten] French citizens from the grasp of the Bo...... (This sentence is not entirely clear.....) There again lay a difficulty

The fact that the French police took part only hesitantly and reluctantly is along the same lines. The farther east you go from the center of the Reich, the more willing people generally were, as experience showed, to throw out this parasite, as people used to say, because the opportunity to rid themselves of it was favorable. There was just one exception, in the southeast: Hungary. In Hungary the proportion of assimilation-minded Jews was disproportionately large compared with the other eastern countries. The German government of the Reich therefore feared that something similar to what had happened throughout the West could happen in Hungary.

France is not the only example. The struggle over the Jews in Holland was just as hard and tenacious, even if not quite so—but on the whole it was not a decisive success. The same in Belgium. When they began in Hungary, there was still the warning signal of the Warsaw ghetto uprising. That is why— I gave it some thought myself when, after years of work behind a desk, I entered the harsh reality of practical work. That is why the RF (Reichsführer-SS) said to himself: now he must go out himself to sort Hungary out. Hungary was very difficult, because the assimilation-minded Jew there was intertwined with the host people, connected by marriage and kinship…

And because, at such a stage, it is really very difficult first to push through the legal foundations and then move on to executive implementation. It must always be borne in mind that these are sovereign or semi-sovereign countries with their own executive authorities, which will not let the occupying power tell them even the slightest thing about executive action, or only with great difficulty. So things can only move forward with enthusiasm in the first seconds, hours or weeks. Once those first seconds have been missed, you can only expect growing resistance that takes a great deal of the strength you should have concentrated on getting your business done.

Questioner

How many Jews did you reckon there were in France?

Eichmann

I can no longer remember exactly, but many times the number not only recorded but also calculated in an ascertainable way. Many times that number; certainly not just 40,000 to 50,000.

Questioner

What do you say to the figure of 300,000?

Eichmann

Yes, I would accept that. Because, however many Jews were deported from France, at least in the years from 1939 to 1940

Open page image and German
Page 538 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 538 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Daß die franz. Polizei nur zögernd und zaudernd mittat, liegt auf derselben Linie. Je weiter Sie nun nach dem Osten kommen, von der Mitte des Reiches ausgesehen, um so bereitwilliger sind in der Regel die Leute gewesen, so sagt es die Praxis, – hier diesen Parasiten, wie man zu sagen pflegte, auszustoßen, weil die Gelegenheit günstig war, sich hier davon zu befreien… Eine einzige Ausnahme war, und zwar im südöstlichen Teil, Ungarn gewesen. In Ungarn war der Teil der asimil. eingestellten Juden, im Vergleich mit den anderen östlichen Ländern, unverhältnismäßig groß gewesen. Daher befürchtete man auch seitens der deutschen Reichsregierung daß in Ungarn ähnliches passieren könnte, wie dies im gesamten Westen geschah. Frankreich ist nicht das einzige Beispiel, der Kampf in Holland um die Juden ist genau so hart und zäh gewesen, wenn auch nicht ganz so aber im großen und ganzen nicht durchschlagend. In Belgien genauso. Als man in Ungarn anfing hatte man noch als Fanal, den Aufstand im Warschauer Ghetto. Daher hat ich habe mir selbst Gedanken gemacht, als ich nun nach jahrelanger Tätigkeit hinter dem Schreibtisch, in die rauhe Wirklichkeit der Praxis kam, daher hat der RF sich gesagt, jetzt muß er selbst hinaus, um Ungarn zu löffeln. Ungarn war sehr schwer. Weil eben der asimil. eingestellte Jude mit dem Wirtsvolk dort verwachsen, verschwägert, versippt war… und weil es in einem solchem Stadium wirklich sehr schwer ist, erst einmal die gesetzliche Untermauerung durchzupauken und von da dann rüber zu klettern in die exekutive Durchführung, wobei immer zu bedenken ist, daß es sich um souveräne oder halbsouveräne Länder handelt, die über ihre eigene Exekutive verfügt, die sich gar nicht oder nur sehr schwer von der Ocpationsmacht u exekutiv auch nur das leiseste einreden lassen. Und so geht daß nur in den ersten Sekunden Stunden oder Wochen mit Elan… und sind diese ersten Sekunden verpaßt, haben sie nur noch mit einem wachsenden Widerstand zu rechnen der ihnen sehr viel Kraft nimmt, die sie an sich auf die Erledigung ihrer Sachen hätten konzentrieren müssen. – Mit wieviel Juden in Frankreich haben Sie gerechnet? Genau kann ich mich heute nicht mehr erinnern, aber ein Vielfaches von dem was nicht nur erfaßt, sondern was auch feststellbar errechnet wurde. Ein Vielfaches, jedenfalls nie und nimmer 40-50000 Was sagen Sie zu der Zahl 300 000. Ja, das möchte ich wohl annehmen. Denn soviel Juden auch von Frankreich abgefahren wurden, so sind doch zumindestens in den Jahren von 1039 bis 1940

Draft translation

12 That the French police cooperated only hesitantly and [auderud — uncertain, illegible OCR], lies along the same line. The further you now come toward the East, seen from the center of the Reich, the more willingly the people were as a rule, so practice says it,—to cast out this parasite here, as one used to say, because the opportunity was favorable to free oneself of it here.. A single exception was, and indeed in the southeastern part, Hungary. In Hungary the portion of assimilation-minded Jews was, in comparison with the other eastern countries, disproportionately large. Therefore one also feared on the part of the German Reich government that in Hungary something similar could happen as it happened throughout the entire West. France is not the only example, the fight in Holland over the Jews was just as hard and tough, even if not quite so [incomplete], but on the whole not decisive. In Belgium just the same. When one began in Hungary one still had as a beacon/signal the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto. Therefore has — I have made my own thoughts, when I now after years of activity [DEL: inxdinxxxxx] behind the desk, came into the rough reality of practice, therefore the RF said to himself, now he himself must go out, to spoon out Hungary. Hungary was very difficult. Because precisely the assimilation-minded Jew was there grown together with, intermarried with, interrelated with the host people.......and because in such a stage it is really very difficult, first of all to hammer through the legal underpinning and from there then to climb over into the executive carrying-out, whereby it must always be considered that these are sovereign or half-sovereign countries, which dispose over their own executive, u that let themselves not at all or only very hardly be talked into even the slightest thing executively by the occupation power. And so that goes only in the first seconds hours or weeks with élan.... and once these first seconds are missed, they have only to reckon with a growing resistance which takes very much strength from them, which they should actually have had to concentrate on the settling of their affairs.— With how many Jews in France did you reckon? Exactly I can no longer remember today, but a multiple of that which was not only registered, but which was also determinably calculated. A multiple, in any case never ever 40-50000 What do you say to the number 300 000. Yes, that I would well assume. For as many Jews as were driven off from France too, so are yet at least in the years from 1939 to 1940

Jews fled the German Reich and emigrated…

Questioner

It is said that the Gestapo was completely in the dark about the program. Did the men arrive there with records, or were they really groping in the dark and had to assemble their records only after they arrived? How was it?

Eichmann

Essentially yes, without records. The preparation time had been much too short in every country. As a rule we had to go by the Jewish yearbooks. Then they added a small percentage of people who were not entered in the Jewish books but counted as Jews under our laws, and that gave an approximate figure. Our reference point had been the statistical Jewish yearbooks.

Questioner

So the claim that the Gestapo was completely in the dark is correct…

Eichmann

Yes, in France at any rate, yes…

Questioner

So, once more about the Jews who were deported and exterminated.

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

There were fewer than 65,000; of these, 2,800 returned after the war.

The list dated 1 July 1944 found in Röthke’s office, they say, shows 75 deportation trains. Normally a train of twenty wagons carried 1,000 Jews, but many later transports were much smaller. The figure given above is not final, but would probably have to be revised downward rather than upward.

Eichmann

I told you I remembered 40,000, so I was not entirely wrong after all.

Questioner

Is it true that, because of the difficulties in counting, registering and concentrating the Jews with the help of the French police, they simply took Jewish orphanages and so on to meet the quotas?

Eichmann

There was no such thing.

Questioner

On the basis of an order for a large roundup,

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

10,000 Jews are to be rounded up…

Questioner

[Typed addition: for the famous roundup of 16 July 1942.]

Eichmann

No, no, what sort of order is that: “are to be rounded up”? Only an incompetent mind could have given it…

Questioner

You did admit that Dannecker was an incompetent mind.

[Argument about Dannecker.]

Eichmann

Later, after the compulsory-service call-ups, you got all sorts of people, but they were not yet there at this time…

[Handwritten word at the lower right: ….]

Open page image and German
Page 539 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 539 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Juden aus dem deutschen Reich getürmt und ausgewandert… Es heißt, daß die Gestapo bzgl. des Programmes vollkommen im Dunklen gewesen sei – Sind denn die Leute mit Unterlagen dort hingekommen, oder sind sie wirklich im Dunkeln getappt und mußten sie sich ihre Unterlagen erst dort schaffen. Wie war denn das? Im wesentlichen ja, ohne Unterlagen. Die Anläufzeit war ja viel zu kurz gewesen, in allen Ländern, wir mußten uns in der Regel an die jüd. Jahresbücher halten und dann haben sie noch einen kleinen Prozentsatz dazu gegeben, die in den jüd. Büchern nicht eingetragen waren, aber die nach unseren Gesetzen auch als Juden galten, dann hatten man so ungefähr eine Zahl. Unser Anhaltspunkt waren die statistischen jüd. Jahresbücher gewesen. Also dann stimmt die Behauptung, daß die Gestapo völlig im Dunkeln gewesen sei… A: Ja, in Frankreich jedenfalls, ja… Also nochmal bzgl. der abtransportierten und vernichteten Juden… Man hat also weniger als 65 000 – davon sind nach dem Kriege 2 800 zurückgekehrt, Die in Röttkes Büro gefundene Liste vom 1. Juli 1944, sagt man daß es 75 Deport. Züge gegeben habe. Gewöhnlich befördere ein aus 20 Waggons bestehender Zug 1000 Juden, aber zahlreiche spätere Transporte waren viel kleiner, die oben angegebene Ziffer ist zwar nicht abschließend, dürfte aber eher nach unten als noch oben zu korrigieren sein. A: Ich sagte Ihnen 40 000 habe ich in meinem Gedächtnis, so habe ich doch nicht ganz unrecht. Stimmt daß, daß man auf Grund der vorliegenden Schwierigkeiten, mit Hilfe der franz Pol. die Juden zahlenmäßig zu erfassen, zu registrieren, zu konzentrieren… daß man einfach jüd. Waisenhäuser etc… hergenommen hat, um die Zahlensolls zu erfüllen? A: Hat es nicht gegeben Auf Grund eines Befehles zu einer großen Razzia sind 10000 Juden zu erfassen… Razzia zur berühmten 16 Juli 42 A: Nein, nein, was ist das denn für ein Befehl, – – – – sind zu erfassen – – – – das kann doch nur ein unzulänglicher Geist gegeben haben… Sie haben ja zugegeben, daß Dannecker ein unzulänglicher Geist war. (Streit um Dannecker) Nach den Dienstverpflichtungen später hat man alle möglichen Leute bekommen, die gab es aber um diese Zeit noch nicht. –

Draft translation

13 Volume 53 [HW: 539] Jews fled and emigrated out of the German Reich....... It is said that the Gestapo was completely in the dark regarding the programme---Did the people arrive there with documentation/records, or were they really groping in the dark and did they have to procure their documentation only there. How was that then? Essentially yes, without documentation. The lead-in/start-up time had after all been much too short, in all countries, we had as a rule to keep to the Jewish yearbooks and then they also gave a small percentage there [in addition] who were not entered in the Jewish books, but who according to our laws also counted as Jews, then one had roughly a figure. Our reference point had been the statistical Jewish yearbooks. So then the assertion is correct that the Gestapo had been completely in the dark.... Yes, in France at any rate, yes... So once more regarding the deported and exterminated Jews.... One thus has less than 65,000--of these 2,800 returned after the war,.- The list found in Röttke's office of 1 July 1944, they say that there were 75 deport[ation] trains. Usually a train consisting of 20 wagons transports 1000 Jews, but numerous later transports were much smaller, the figure given above is indeed not conclusive, but would rather be corrected downward than upward. I told you 40,000 I have in my memory, so I am after all not entirely wrong. Is that correct, that on account of the existing difficulties, of recording, registering, concentrating the Jews numerically with the help of the French pol[ice]....... that one simply took Jewish orphanages etc.... in order to fulfil the quota figures? There was no such thing On account of an order for a big raid, 10000 Jews are to be recorded..... [HW: to the famous 16 July 42] raid No, no, what kind of order is that then,----are to be recorded-----that can only have been given by an inadequate mind.... You have after all admitted that Dannecker was an inadequate mind. (dispute about Dannecker) Later, according to the labor-service obligations [Dienstverpflichtungen], one got all sorts of people, but those did not yet exist around this time.-- [HW: [?Dannecker?]]

Questioner

The matters concerning children again. Dr. Höllers writes here, having experienced it all in Drans… and Auschwitz, that in July 1944 the Paris orphanages and the Rotschild old people’s home were emptied. Röthke’s files contain a report that something similar had happened earlier, on 6 April 1944.

[An article is read aloud.]

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

…deportation procedure.

Questioner

Do you know nothing about it?

So the operation in France failed.

Yes, it failed.

Questioner

In this connection the author emphasizes the un… of Lavalle.

Eichmann

Rightly so…

Questioner

He writes:

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

“In France…”

Questioner

[unintelligible on the recording]

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

whom his countrymen shot as a traitor after the war.

Questioner

[Further reading aloud.]

Eichmann

In other words, assimilated Jews. Here the man has, of course, taken it in a different direction; I stated it soberly and matter-of-factly.

Questioner

He writes that only a quarter of the Jews living in France were subjected to the Final Solution.

Eichmann

He was no longer a Jew at all; he was a Frenchman…

Questioner

But the important thing is that Lavalle is the grand master of the Allied victory over the Germans. Lavalle pulled the wool over the Führer’s eyes; he did this and that, and Lavalle was a very shrewd French peasant who thought only of France. He did not care about the whole European idea. We lost the war when the Führer shook Pétain’s hand.

Eichmann

When the parade took place on the Champs d….

Not that alone. Germany’s desperate search for friendship with this swinish France…

Questioner

Wooing, not searching… And second, Dunkirk (Duennkirchen). That was one of the nails that hammered the coffin shut.

In all the measures you took concerning the Jewish question, did you never think about their effect on public opinion in enemy countries and, above all, in neutral countries?

Eichmann

I can think of nothing else but how to carry out the order I have received well and as quickly as possible.

Open page image and German
Page 540 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 540 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Nochmals die Kinderangelegenheiten, hier schreibt Dr. Höllers, der in Drans… und in Auschwitz alles mit erlebt hatte, – daß im Juli 1944 die Pariser Waisenhaus/er und das Rotschild Altersheim geleert wurden Röttkes Akten enthalten einen Bericht daß sich schon früher ähnliches zugetragen hatte, am 6 April 44; (Vorlesung des Artikels…) …Abschubverfahren. – Nichts bekannt? Also die Aktion in Frankreich ist gescheitert. – Ja, gescheitert. Der Autor streicht in diesem Zusammenhang die un (?) Lavalles heraus. – Mit Recht… Er schreibt; In Frankreich…(unverständlich. den seine Landsleute nach dem Kriege als Verräter erschossen haben. (Weiteres Vorlesen… Mit anderen Worten – Asimil Juden, hier hat der Mann es natürlich in ein anderes Fahrwasser gegeben – ich sprach es nüchtern, sachlich aus. Er schreibt, daß nur ein viertel der in Frankreich lebenden Juden der Endlösung zugeführt wurden… Der war ja gar kein Jude mehr, der war ja Franzose… Aber das bedeutende ist ja, daß Lavalle der Großmeister ist in dem Sieg der Allii über die Deutschen ist. Lavalle hat dem Führer Sand in die Augen gestreut, er hat gemacht dies und jenes und Lavalle war ein ganz schlauer franz Bauer, der nur an Frankreich dachte, die ganze Europaidee war ihm schnuppe. Wir haben den Krieg verloren, als der Führer Petain die Hand drückte. Als die Parade auf der Champs d … statt fand. Nicht das allein, dieses krampfhafte Suchen Deutschland einer Freundschaft dieses Sau-Frankreichs… Buhlens, nicht Suchen… Und 2. Dünnkirchen… das war eines der Nägel die den Sarg zuklopften Haben Sie bei allen Maßnahmen, die Sie btr. der Judenfrage trafen, nie an die stimmenmäßige Auswirkung im feindlichen und vor allen Dingen im neutralen Ausland gedacht.? Ich kann da nichts anderes denken, als wie kann ich den erhaltenen Befehl, gut und schnellstmöglich zur Ausführung bringen

Draft translation

14 Volume 53 [HW: 540] Once again the children's matters, here Dr. Hoellers writes, who had experienced everything in Drans... and in Auschwitz,--that in July 1944 [TS INS: the] [DEL: the] Paris orphanage/ [TS INS: he] and the Rothschild old-age home were emptied Roettke's files contain a report that something similar had already occurred earlier, on 6 April 44; (reading aloud of the article......) .....deportation procedure.--Nothing known? So the operation in France failed.- Yes, failed. The author brings out in this connection the un (?) of Lavalle.- Rightly so..... He writes; In France....(unintelligible . whom his countrymen shot as a traitor after the war. (further reading aloud..... In other words--assimilated Jews, here the man has of course put it into another channel-I stated it soberly, matter-of-factly. He writes that only a quarter of the Jews living in France were brought to the Final Solution.... He was no longer a Jew at all, he was a Frenchman... But the significant thing is that Lavalle is the grand master in the victory of the Allies over the Germans. Lavalle threw sand in the Führer's eyes, he did this and that and Lavalle was a very cunning French peasant, who thought only of France, the whole European idea was of no concern to him. We lost the war when the Führer shook Pétain's hand. When the parade on the Champs d ... took place. Not that alone, this frantic seeking by Germany for a friendship of this swine-France.... Wooing, not seeking..... And 2. Dunkirk.... that was one of the nails that hammered the coffin shut Did you, with all the measures you took regarding the Jewish question, never think of the effect in terms of opinion abroad in enemy and above all in neutral foreign countries.? I can think nothing other than, how can I carry out the received order well and as quickly as possible

Questioner

That is not what I mean now. Did you never give it any thought or have reservations when you received an order?

All right, you receive an order and follow it on the strength of your oath…

Questioner

But surely you do think about it?

Eichmann

He was an enemy of the Reich.

Questioner

No, I mean the effect of the measures on public feeling in enemy and neutral countries. Did you never think about that?

Eichmann

You cannot put yourself in my position there. You never can, because you were in the SD (Security Service) right to the end. But when you are in the executive apparatus today, it does not interest you at all.

Questioner

So you gave it no thought?

Eichmann

No, not at all. I was completely indifferent to it. I was in the executive apparatus. I received an order and had to carry it out, and I have told you before, if I had had to arrest my father… Well… I was in the executive apparatus…

Questioner

I think you misunderstand the question. You did have some prior grounding in intelligence, or in the SD (Security Service).

Eichmann

Yes, I am—

Questioner

Now that becomes second nature to a person, so that when he takes such executive measures…

Eichmann

I must also say that we actually had to report on how the measures affected the Jews' mood. But presumably Office VI reported in just the same way: what are enemy countries saying, what are neutral countries saying, how did it affect the population…

Questioner

And these matters were at least brought to you through intelligence reports, so you must have given them some thought.

Eichmann

For information…

Questioner

So you did give it some thought…

Eichmann

Personally, nothing at all… Solution…

Questioner

But suppose it was like this: in Sweden they are talking about such and such a matter; in Auschwitz the Jewish transports end in such and such a way… You must have thought something about that?

Open page image and German
Page 541 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 541 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Das meine ich jetzt nicht. – Haben Sie nie bei Erhalt eines Befehles sich Gedanken gemacht oder Bedenken gehabt… Gut, man erhält einen Befehl, und befolgt ihn auf Grund des Eides… aber man macht sich doch Gedanken??? Es war ein Reichsfeind Nein, ich meine nun die stimmungsmäßige Auswirkung der Maßnahmen im feindlichen und neutralen Ausland… haben Sie nie daran gedacht? Da können Sie sich nicht in meine Haut versetzen, daß können Sie nie, weil Sie bis zum Schluß im SD gewesen sind… Aber wenn Sie heute in der Exekutive sind dann interessiert Sie das gar nicht… Also Sie haben sich keine Gedanken gemacht? Nein, keinesfalls, es war mir völlig egal gewesen. Ich war in der Exekutive gewesen, ich bekam einen Befehl und hatte den auszuführen und ich sagte Ihnen schon einmal, wenn ich meinen Vater hätte verhaften müssen… tja… ich war in der Exekutive drin… Ich glaube Sie mißverstehen die Frage… Sie sind doch nachrichtenmäßig oder SD ein bischen vorbelastet gewesen. Ja, das bin Nun ist das eine zweite Natur in einem Menschen, daß er wenn er nun solche Exekutivmaßnahmen trifft,… Dazu muß ich noch sagen, daß wir geradezu zu berichten hatten, wie wirken sich die Maßnahmen auf die Juden stimmungsmäßig aus… aber wohl genau so hat das Amt VI berichtet, was spricht das feindliche Ausland, das neutrale Ausland… wie wirkte es sich auf die Bevölkerung aus… Und diese Sachen wurden doch zumindestens nachrichtendienstlich an Sie herangetragen, also haben Sie sich doch Gedanken machen müssen… Informatorisch… Also haben Sie sich doch Gedanken gemacht… Persönlich – gar nichts… Lösung… Aber wenn es nun so war… in Schweden spricht man nun über die und die Angelegenheit – in Auschwitz enden die Judentransporte in der und der Form… da müssen Sie sich doch etwas dabei gedacht haben?…

Draft translation

15 Volume 53 [HW: 541] That is not what I mean now.-- Did you never, upon receiving an order, give it thought or have reservations.... Fine, one receives an order, and follows it on the basis of the oath.... but one does give it some thought??? He was an enemy of the Reich No, I now mean the effect on the mood [morale] of the measures in enemy and neutral foreign countries.... did you never think about that? There you cannot put yourself in my skin, that you can never [do], because you were in the SD until the end...But if today you are in the Executive then that does not interest you at all.. So you gave it no thought? No, in no case, it was completely a matter of indifference to me. I had been in the Exe- cutive, I received an order and had to carry it out and I told you once already, if I had had to arrest my father... well.... I was in the Executive..... I believe you misunderstand the question.... You were, after all, in intelligence terms or [as] SD somewhat predisposed [pre-burdened]. Yes, that I am Now it is a second nature in a person, that when he takes such executive measures,.... To that I must further say, that we practically had to report, how do the measures affect the Jews in terms of mood [morale]...but presumably exactly [s]o did Amt VI [Office VI] report, what does the enemy foreign country say, the neutral foreign country.....how did it affect the population.... And these matters were, after all, at least brought to you by intelligence, so you did after all have to give it thought.. Informationally... So you did after all give it thought.... Personally---nothing at all....Solution... But if it was now so... in Sweden one now speaks about this and that matter----in Auschwitz the Jewish transports end in this and that . Form.... there you must have thought something in the process?........ [HW: [illegible]]

Unknown speaker

What I am doing here is really nonsense, whether on orders or on my own initiative, if the effect is that neutral countries are stirred up, and can be stirred up, against us precisely because of these measures. We are in a neutral war, and it is important that the few countries still neutral either remain genuinely neutral or come over to us and help us. And through the foreign news I have to keep hearing that, precisely because of these measures I carry out, opinion is turning more and more against us, and that enemy propaganda uses these very measures to discredit the Third Reich in the eyes of the still-neutral world.

Now, had I been in a position where I could decide freely, such views of world opinion would have had to concern me, quite clearly. But since I did not have the privilege of holding such a post, and since I was someone receiving orders in the truest sense of the word, it was not for me to ask about that. And I say it again today: where would we have ended up if everyone receiving orders had asked himself whether what he had been ordered to do made sense and how it might affect Germany? Then it would have been a (probably pigsty; S…stall) …, and we might not have had to hold out against an enemy for six years; we would have had to capitulate after one or two years. I was in the executive apparatus, received orders and obeyed.

Questioner

But this is not about thinking or not thinking. You received your order, you carried it out, and had that not been the case, we would have ended up in a (probably pigsty; S…stall) ……

But the question is a different one: whether your prior grounding in the SD (Security Service) led you to trains of thought whose reconstr… … interests us at the moment. In other words, whether, precisely because of your SD training, without that affecting the execution of the orders you received, you nevertheless considered things one way or another: such and such an operation, abroad they say such and such; right, not right… No, it has to be done differently, and so on.

You did think in the course of your work, without orders…

[Typed as notes in the transcript: See the Jewish Central Office; the Madagascar Plan.]

Open page image and German
Page 542 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 542 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Das ist doch nun eigentlich ein Blödsinn was ich nun hier mache, sei es auf Befehl oder von mir aus, wenn die Wirkung die ist, daß die neutralen Länder gerade auf Grund dieser Maßnahmen, gegen uns aufgehetzt und aufgehetzt werden können. Wir stehen in einem neutralen Krieg, und es ist wichtig, daß die wenigen Länder, die noch neutral sind, entweder wirklich neutral bleiben oder zu uns kommen, uns helfen. Und ich muß durch die Auslandnachrichten immer wieder hören, daß gerade auf Grund dieser Maßnahmen, die von mir durchgeführt werden, daß man immer mehr gegen uns eingestellt wird und daß gerade diese Maßnahmen die gegnerische Propaganda zum Anlaß nimmt um das dritte Reich in den Augen der noch neutralen Welt herab zusetzen. Nun wäre ich an einer Stelle gesessen, wo ich hätte frei entscheiden können, hätten mich solche Meinungen der Weltöffentlichkeit interessieren müssen, ganz klar… Nachdem ich aber nicht den Vorzug hatte auf einem solchen Posten zu sitzen, und nachdem ich nun Befehlsempfänger gewesen bin im wahrsten Sinne des Wortes, habe ich nicht danach zu fragen gehabt. Und ich sage es heute noch einmal – wo wären wir hingekommen wenn ein jeder Befehlsempfänger sich gefragt hätte, ob nun das was er befohlen bekommen hat nun einen Sinn hat und wieweit sich für das Deutschland auswirken könnte – dann wäre es ein S…stall gewesen und wir hätten vielleicht nicht 6 Jahre gegen einen Feind durchstehen müssen sondern wir hätten nach 1od2 Jahren kapitulieren müssen. Ich war in der Exekutive und habe Befehle bekommen und habe gehorcht. Aber es handelt sich jetzt nicht um das Nachdenken oder Nichtnachdenken, Sie haben Ihren Befehl bekommen, Sie haben ihn auch ausgeführt und wenn an dem nicht so gewesen wäre, dann wären wir eben in einen S…stall hinein gekommen… Aber die Frage ist eine andere… ob Sie durch Ihre SD Vorbelastung nicht zu Gedankengängen gekommen sind, deren Rekonstru… uns im Augenblick interessiert – mit and. Worten, daß Sie gerade durch Ihre SD Ausbildung, ohne daß es aber die Ausführung Ihrer erhaltenen Befehle beeinflußte, ob Sie nicht doch so und so sich überlegt haben, das und das die Aktion, im Ausland spricht man so und so – richtig nicht richtig… nein, man muß das anders machen… usw. Sie haben ja gedacht – bei Ihrer Aufgabe, ohne Befehle… siehe Jüd. Zentralstelle – Mad. Plan…

Draft translation

Band 54 542 This is really actually a nonsense what I am doing here now, be it on orders or on my own initiative, if the effect is such that the neutral countries, precisely on the basis of these measures, can be incited and incited against us. We are in a neutral war, and it is important that the [DEL: xxx] few countries that are still neutral either really remain neutral or come over to us, help us. And I must through the foreign news hear again and again that precisely on the basis of these measures, which are carried out by me, that one is set more and more against us and that precisely these measures the enemy propaganda takes as an occasion in order to belittle the Third Reich in the eyes of the still neutral wo[r]ld. Now had I been seated in a position where I could have decided freely, such opinions of the world public would have had to interest me, quite clearly... But after I did not have the privilege of sitting in such a post, and after I have now been a receiver of orders in the truest sense of the word, I did not have to ask about that. And I say it today once again----where would we have ended up if every receiver of orders had asked himself whether now that which he received as an order now has a sense and how far it could affect for [DEL: [illegible]] [TS INS: the] Germany-- then it would have been a s...stall [shithouse/pigsty] and we would perhaps not have had to hold out 6 years against an enemy but rather we would have had to capitulate after 1 or 2 years. I was in the executive [branch/apparatus] and got orders and obeyed. But it is now not a matter of the thinking-over or n[o]t-thinking-over, You got your order, You also carried it out and if it had not been so, then we would have indeed gotten into a s...stall... But the question is a different one.. whether You through Your SD prior-conditioning have not come to trains of thought whose reconstru... interests us at the moment-- with oth[er] words, that You precisely through Your SD training, without however it influencing the execution of Your received orders, whether You did not after all consider this way and that, this and that the action, abroad one speaks this way and that---right not right...... no, one must do it differently..etc. You did indeed think---in Your task, without orders..... see Jew[ish] Central Office ----Mad[agascar] Plan......

For that I have to go back to 1941. That was the only time I thought. But not just for myself; that must be said explicitly. It would be enormously easy for me today to distance myself by telling you a fairy tale about all the pious wishes I had. I am not doing that. I have no right to, because later I no longer thought. I thought then, in 1941.

[The affair with Müller.]

Yes, when Heydrich sent me there, I did not think quietly; I thought aloud, aloud to Müller, to Günther, and probably to my government councillors as well. What I had in mind, and said over and over, was to solve this whole problem politically. And I do not know whether you can picture correctly what I understand by a political solution. By that I mean a separation without violence, through a legal ordinance that brings about, or clarifies, the separation of the guest from the host people. That was my whole aim. That was also how the idea of the Central Office for Jewish Emigration came to me.

That idea then gave birth to my project in Lublin; I wanted the whole district. Out of that idea I then brought Theresienstadt into being, because I was suddenly asked for advice, they were hoping for a possible solution, when Heydrich overreached himself in front of the press hacks. And out of that idea I warmed up the old Herzl egg again with Mad. (Madagascar), keeping several German central authorities intensely occupied with these matters for several months. For that long I fought and struggled, and at that time I was not even a National Socialist, if you will.

The relationship between the Jews and me was so watered down and so blurred that in the end they could no longer say: is he a Jew or an SS officer? We sat side by side at the same assembly line in the central offices. That was what I wanted. Then I still thought; then I could still develop a certain initiative; then I could still bring forth ideas that could actually be put into practice. But when the course of the war reached such proportions that this ordinary civilian defiance could no longer be indulged, they had, from

Open page image and German
Page 543 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 543 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Da muß ich zurück schalten auf das Jahr 1941, nur da habe ich gedacht. Aber nicht für mich, daß muß ausdrücklich gesagt werden – denn es wäre für mich heute ungeheuer einfach mich zu distanzieren, indem ich Ihnen heute eine Märchen erzähle, von all den frommen Wünsche die ich hatte… Das tue ich nicht, das Recht habe ich nicht, denn ich habe später nicht mehr gedacht, da habe ich gedacht 1941. – Die Affäre mit Müller Ja, wo ich da von Heydrich geschickt wurde – da habe ich aber nicht/leise gedacht, da habe ich laut gedacht – laut gedacht gegenüber Müller, gegenüber Günter und wahrscheinlich auch gegenüber meinen Regierungsräten. Nämlich ich dachte – und ich habe es widerholtest sagt, dieses ganze Problem auf politische Art zu lösen Und ich weiß nicht, ob Sie sich das Richtige darunter vorstellen können, was ich unter politischer Lösung verstehe. – Darunter verstehe ich ein gewaltloses Auseinandergehen, durch eine gesetzliche Verordnung, die zur Scheidung des Gastes vom Wirtsvolk führt, bzw. klärt. Das war mein ganzes Bestreben gewesen und daher auch, aus diesem Gedanken heraus, entstand ja bei mir die Idee der Zentrale für Jüd. Auswanderung. Aus diesem Gedanken heraus gebar ich ja dann die Sache in Lublin, den ganzen Distrikt wollte ich haben – aus diesem Gedanken heraus gebar ich ja dann Theresienstadt, weil von mir abrupt ein Rat verlangt wurde – eine Lösungsmöglichkeit erhofft wurde, als sich Heydrich hier vor den Pressefritzen vergaloppierte. – Und aus dem Gedanken heraus wärmte ich das alte Herzerlsche Ei wieder auf mit Mad. und zwar so, daß ich mehrer deutsche Zentralinstanzen mehrere Monate mit diesen Sachen heftigst beschäftigte. – Solange habe ich da gekämpft, habe ich gerungen und da war ich, wenn Sie wollen, nicht einmal Nationalsozialist gewesen, da war das Verhältnis zwischen den Juden und mir ein so verwässertes und ein so verschwommenes, daß sie zum Schluß nicht mehr sagen konnten, ist es ein Jude oder ist es ein SS Führer. Denn wir hockten ja beim selben Arbeitsband in den Zentralstellen beieinander. Das war mein Wollen, da dachte ich noch, da habe ich noch eine gewisse Initiative entwickeln können, da habe ich auch noch Gedanken gebären können, die dann auch wirklich in die Praxis verwirklicht werden konnten. Als aber das Kriegsgeschehen dann solche Ausmaße annahm, daß diesem bürgerlich normalen Trotz nicht mehr Folge geleistet werden konnte, hatte man von

Draft translation

There I must switch back to the year 1941, only there did I think. But not for me, that must be expressly said--- for it would be enormously easy for me today to distance myself, by telling you today a fairy tale, of all the pious wishes that I had... That I do not do, I do not have the right to, for I did not think any more later, there I thought 1941.--- The affair with Mueller Yes, where I was sent there by Heydrich-- there I did not, however, think /quietly, there I thought aloud---thought aloud toward Mueller, toward Guenter and probably also toward my Regierungsraete [government councillors]. Namely I thought---and I have it most repeatedly [DEL: thought] [TS INS: says], to solve this whole problem in a political way And I do not know whether you can imagine the right thing thereunder, what I understand under political solution.--Thereunder I understand a nonviolent going-apart, through a legal ordinance, which leads to, or rather clarifies, the separation of the guest from the host-people. That had been my whole endeavor and therefore also, out of this thought, there arose in me the idea of the Central Office for Jew. Emigration. Out of this thought I then gave birth to the matter in Lublin, the whole district I wanted to have--- out of this thought I then gave birth to Theresienstadt, because a counsel was abruptly demanded of me----a possibility of a solution was hoped for, when Heydrich here bolted before the press-Fritzen [press-hacks].-- And out of the thought I warmed up the old Herzl-ish egg again with Mad[agascar]. and indeed in such a way that I most vigorously occupied several German central authorities for several months with these matters.-- So long did I fight there, did I struggle and there I was, if you will, not even once a National Socialist, there the relationship between the Jews and me was such a watered-down and such a blurred one, that in the end they could no longer say, is it a Jew or is it an SS leader. For we did indeed crouch together at the same work-conveyor-belt in the central offices. That was my will, there I still thought, there I could still develop a certain initiative, there I could also still give birth to thoughts, which then also really could be realized into practice. But when the war-events then took on such dimensions, that this bourgeois-normal defiance could no longer be followed, one had from

on high, decided otherwise. From then on I received only the orders that, whether I liked them or not, had to be carried out in accordance with my oath of service. I no longer had to think. Had I wanted to think, or first to look at the whole business in detail, above all those matters for which the Security Police and the SD (Security Service), or rather the central authorities, were not responsible at all, perhaps other thoughts would have occurred to me out of purely human considerations. That is possible…

Questioner

That is a different matter, that you carried out the order.

Eichmann

I have said that I divided the matter into two parts, and I cannot say more about it than that. I had to obey without question…

Questioner

But you did receive reports about the effects of the measures…

Eichmann

That did not interest me at all…

Questioner

But you received the reports, you read them and thought something about them. And that is what we want to know now.

Eichmann

All I can say is that I probably thought the German Reich government was right.

Questioner

That is what you thought?

Eichmann

Of course I will have thought that.

Questioner

I do not claim to know you through and through. But I know your thinking machine, how you let something come to you, how you process it and how you spit it back out. I do believe to a certain extent, the belief is there, that you can, in a way prompted also by egocentricity, simply lower a curtain and say: no thinking here. A pure act of will, nothing more. Only to a small extent, though…

But most of what I think I know about you tells me that it is out of the question that, during the war, especially since you were occasionally presented with illustrative material so utterly alien to you, very little of it—

[Journey on Müller's instructions.]

that, while you were working, I will not say every hour, but at least once a day, your thoughts suddenly wandered away from carrying out an order you had received and onto its effects, whether in human terms or political terms and so on. I cannot distinguish between those, but I am certain that you did what we are calling here giving it thought.

Open page image and German
Page 544 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 544 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Hoher Warte aus, anders entschieden. Ab dann bezog ich nur noch die Befehle, die, ob sie mir passten oder nicht, gemäß meinem Diensteid auszuführen waren. – Ich hatte nicht mehr zu denken gehabt, – hätte ich denken wollen – oder hätte ich mir die ganzen Sachen erst einmal in Details hätte ansehen wollen, vor allem für diese Sachen, für die die SIPO und der SD, oder besser gesagt für die die Zentralinstanzen gar nicht zuständig waren, vielleicht wären mir aus rein menschlichen Erwägungen andere Gedanken gekommen. Das ist möglich… Das ist eine andere Angelegenheit daß Sie den Befehl durchgeführt haben Ich habe gesagt, ich habe die Sachen in zwei Teile unterteilt und mehr kann ich dazu nicht Stellung nehmen. Ich hatte stur zu gehorchen… Aber Sie haben doch die Meldungen bekommen wie sich die Maßnahmen auswirkten… Interessierte mich ja gar nicht… Aber Sie haben die Meldungen bekommen, sie haben sie gelesen und sie haben sich was dabei gedacht und das wollen wir jetzt wissen – Ich kann dazu nur sagen, daß ich mir wohl dabei gedacht habe, daß die deutsche Reichsregierung recht hat. Das haben Sie gedacht?? Selbstverständlich werde ich mir das gedacht haben. Ich will ja nun nicht behaupten, daß ich Sie durch und durch kenne – aber ich kenne Ihre Denkmaschine – bzw. wie Sie eine Sache auf sich zu kommen lassen wie Sie sie verarbeiten und wie Sie sie wieder ausstoßen. Ich glaube zu einem gewissen Prozentsatz allerdings, aber der Glaube ist da, daß es Ihnen möglich ist, durch eine Art, auch vom Egozentrischen eingegeben, einfach einen Vorhang runter zu lassen und zu sagen, da wird nicht gedacht, ein reiner Willensakt, nada mas – ein kleiner Prozentsatz nur – Nur Großteil aber meines vermeintlichen Kennens von Ihnen, sagt mir, daß es ausgeschlossen ist, daß Sie sich im Laufe des Krieges, zumal Ihnen und Ihnen so gar nicht liegendes illustra. Material gelegentlich, sehr wenig, vorgesetzt wurde, (Reise im Auftrage von Müller) daß Sie sich bei Ihrer Arbeit, ich will nicht sagen jede Stunde, aber mindestens einmal am Tage, daß Sie plötzlich mit Ihren Gedanken weg waren, nicht bei der Ausführung eines bekommenen Befehls, sondern bei der Auswirkung, ob das nun in menschlicher Hinsicht war oder politischeer usw… das kann ich gar nicht unterscheiden, aber ich bin sicher davon, daß Sie sich, wie wir hier das jetzt nennen, Gedanken gemacht haben.

Draft translation

high vantage point, decided otherwise. From then on I only received the orders which, whether they suited me or not, were to be carried out according to my part of the service.-- I no longer had to think, ---had I wanted to think----or had I wanted to first look at the whole matters in detail, above all for those matters for which the SIPO and the SD, or better said for which the central authorities were not competent at all, perhaps from purely human considerations other thoughts might have come to me. That is possible... That is another matter, that you carried out the order. I have said, I divided the matters into two parts and more than that I cannot take a position on. I had to obey doggedly.... But you did after all receive the reports on how the measures were taking effect... That did not interest me at all.... But you received the reports, you read them and you thought something about them. [DEL: [illegible]]/and that is what we now want to know---- [HW: [illegible]] I can only say about that, that I probably did think to myself that the German Reich government is right. You thought that?? Of course I will have thought that to myself. I do not now want to claim that I know you through and through-----but I know your thinking machine-- or rather how you let a thing come at you, how you process it and how you expel it again. I do believe to a certain percentage however, but the belief is [DEL: [illegible]] through a kind of, also from the there, that it is possible for you, [DEL: [illegible]] Egocentric prompted simply to let a curtain down and to say, there nothing is thought, a pure act of will, nada mas--- only a small percentage----- [HW: [illegible]] But only the greater part of my supposed knowing of you tells me, that it is out of the question that you, during the course of the war, especially since illustra. material so very much not to your liking was occasionally, very little, put before you, (journey on the order of Mueller) that you, at your work, I will not say every hour, but at least once a day, that you were suddenly away with your thoughts, not at the carrying out of a received order, but at the effect, whether that was now in a human respect or political etc....that I cannot distinguish at all, but I am sure of it, that you, as we now call it here, made thoughts to yourself [i.e. reflected].

If that is what you call giving it thought, when you remind me of the trip for Müller, that I was opposed to killing, then that is right. I told him so.

Questioner

But that is not the only instance. Those images you saw then, or rather those thoughts you had then, or rather those images still so vivid before your eyes today, stayed with you at the time as well.

Eichmann

I made no secret of that either…

Questioner

Yes, but precisely because those images made such an impression on you, I am sure that throughout the war years, while carrying out your duties and your orders, you often connected some matter with them in your thoughts…

Eichmann

Yes, my inner feeling, not my thoughts…

Questioner

Yes, but I call that thoughts too…

Eichmann

Yes, my inner feeling. That was quite unlike my permanent deputy Günther, for example. Günther was an ice-cold man. In all seven years of working together I never had even a fraction of a human relationship with him. He was so cold that in my absence he simply had my people killed.

Questioner

But how could you have such a man at your side? All right, he was assigned to you, but surely over time you can get a man like that transferred away…

Eichmann

He was an excellent administrator…

Questioner

All right, then I send him into administration and have him do nothing but administrative work—

[overlapping talk]

Eichmann

Why? The man did his work. It was only as a person that he was cold.

[overlapping talk]

Questioner

… When one causes suffering, that one feels suffering oneself, then it is justified.

Eichmann

But I have already said that. It was so terrible for me when I saw it for the first time that I went to Müller and said to him, word for word: this cannot go on like this… I was horrified.

When inspecting those anti-tank ditches, I still remember being told, “hermetically sealed off”, and how an uneasy feeling came over me…

Open page image and German
Page 545 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 545 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Wenn Sie darunter verstehen, Gedanken machen, wenn Sie mich an die Reise von Müller erinnern, das ich ein Gegner gewesen bin vom Töten, dann stimmt das, das habe ich ihm gesagt. Aber das ist nicht der einzige Fall, diese Bilder die Sie damals gesehen haben, bzw. diese Gedanken die Sie damals gehabt haben, bzw, diese Bilder die Ihnen heute noch so lebendig vor Augen stehen, die sind auch damals bei Ihnen geblieben Da habe ich ja auch ge keinen Hehl daraus gemacht… Ja aber gerade weil diese Bilder Sie so beeindruckt haben, bin ich sicher daß in all den Kriegsjahren, bei der Ausübung Ihres Dienstes, bei der Durchführung Ihrer Befehle – daß Sie des öfteren mit irgendwelchen Gedanken eine Sache damit in Verbindung brachten… Ja, mein inneres Gefühl, nicht meine Gedanken… Ja aber das nenne ich auch Gedanken… Ja. mein inneres Gefühl, – das war ganz im Gegensatz zB zu meinem ständigen Vertreter Günter gewesen – Günter, war ein Mann von Eiseskälte… mit dem ich all den 7 Jahren der Zusammenarbeit auch nicht nur einen Bruchteil eines menschlichen Verhältnisses gehabt habe… er war so kalt, daß er in meiner Abwesenheit einfach meine Leute töten ließ. Aber wie konnten Sie einen solchen Mann an Ihrer Seite haben – gut er war Ihnen zugeteilt, aber man kann doch einen solchen Mann abschieben im Laufe der Zeit… Er war ein ausgezeichneter Verwaltungsarbeiter… Gut, dann schicke ich ihn in die Verwaltung und lasse ihn nur Verwaltungsarbeiten machen – (Durcheinanderreden…) Warum, der Mann hat seine Arbeit getan, nur als Mensch war er kalt gewesen – (Durcheinander…) ???? wenn man Leiden verursacht, daß man selbst Leiden empfindet, dann ist es gerechtfertigt. Aber das sagte ich ja schon, das war bei mir so furchtbar, als ich das das erste Mal sah, daß ich dann zu Müller hinging und ihm wörtlich sagte; so geht das nicht… ich war entsetzt. – Bei der Besichtigung dieser Panzergräben – ich erinnere mich noch, wie man mir sagte; hermetisch abgeschlossen – wie da mir ein unbehagliches Gefühl ankam –

Draft translation

4 Band 54 [HW: 545] If you understand by that, to reflect, if you remind me of the journey of Mueller, that I was an opponent of killing , then that is correct, that I told him. But that is not the only case, these images which you saw back then , or rather these thoughts which you had back then, or rather, these images which still stand so vividly before your eyes today, they also stayed with you back then I made no secret of that either... Yes but precisely because these images impressed you so much, I am sure that in all the war years, in the exercise of your duty, in the carrying out of your orders--that you more often with some- thing [TS INS: a] [DEL: [?its?]] thought brought the matter into connection therewith... Yes, my inner feeling, not my thoughts... Yes but that I also call thoughts... Yes. my inner feeling,--that was quite in contrast for example to my per- manent deputy--- [TS INS: Guenter] Guenter, was a man of ice-coldness.... with whom in all the 7 years of the collaboration I did not have even one fraction of a human relationship...he was o cold, that he in my absence simply had my people killed., But how could you have such a man at your side-- fine he was assig assigned to you, but one can after all push off such a man in the course of time...... He was an excellent administrative worker..... Fine, then I send him into the administration and let him only do administrative work--- (Talking over one another...) Why, the man did his work, only as a human being he was cold been - (Confusion.......) ???? when one causes suffering, that one oneself feels suffering, then it is justified. But that I already said, that was so terrible with me, when I saw that the first time,, that I then went over to Mueller and said to him literally; this cannot go on like this.... I was horrified.--- At the inspection of these anti-tank ditches--- I still remember, how one told me;; hermetically sealed-- how there an uneasy feeling came upon me-----

And when I then saw the young men of the Waffen-SS shooting at those Jews in the pit, I just caught the last volleys, something changed in me. My knees shook just as they did that time Höss showed me something where corpses were being burned. My knees were trembling; I have said this before. I had to summon all my strength in front of Höss's escort detachment, which was buzzing along behind us, because I had no escort of my own, so that I would not somehow keel over.

Questioner

So that reinforces the point that, with your mental disposition, it is impossible that you simply carried everything out throughout without giving it any thought.

I am completely convinced that when you were in Auschwitz for the first time, you were a—

Eichmann

That I was an unhappy man, yes, that is right.

Questioner

Then you saw the final destination station, after all that long time spent trying to solve the Jewish problem.

Eichmann

Yes, yes, that is right. My only comfort in all those deportations was that I simply did not know: does he die or not? That was my only support, that I was not responsible for it, that I simply did not know what happened to the people…

Questioner

What you have now told us shows that you did give it thought.

Eichmann

Those were my inner feelings…

Questioner

And you read the newspaper every day. You will have received still more news, foreign periodicals, extracts from enemy newspapers and so on. So you did think: what effect are the measures I carry out having in enemy and neutral countries?

Eichmann

But that is secondary.

Questioner

No, it makes no difference whether it is secondary or primary. We want to know what you thought.

Eichmann

I said weeks ago that I once told Wi.. that I took the view that National Socialism would never, ever last a thousand years. My view was that, if AH (Adolf Hitler) were dead, the Reich would break up into the interests of its military commanders and collapse in on itself, just as every great empire in history fell apart shortly after the death of its founder.

Open page image and German
Page 546 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 546 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Und als ich dann sah wie die jungen Leute der Waffen SS auf diese Juden in der Grube schossen, ich habe gerade noch die letzten Salven mitbekommen, da bin ich irgendwie anders geworden – da zitterten mir genau so die Knie, wie mir da einmal Höß eine Sache zeigte, wo Leichen verbrannt wurden, ich zitterte in den Knieen, ich habe es schon einmal gesagt, – ich mußte damals alle meine Kraft zusammen nehmen vor dem Begleitkommando von Höß, daß hinter uns heranschwirrte, denn ich hatte keine Begleiter, daß ich da nicht irgendwie aus den Latschen kippte. Das ist also noch eine Verstärkung hierzu, daß es ausgeschlossen ist, bei Ihrer geistigen Veranlagung, einfach durchweg ausgeführt haben, ohne sich Gedanken gemacht zu haben… – Ich bin vollkommen davon überzeugt, daß als Sie das erste Mal in Auschwitz waren, daß Sie ein Daß ich ein unglücklicher Mensch war, ja das stimmt. – Da sahen Sie nun den Endzielbahnhof nach all der langen Zeit der Bemühungen das Judenproblem zu lösen Ja, ja, das stimmt – mein einziger Trost bei all den Abtransporten für mich war dann, daß ich eben nicht wußte, stirbt er oder nicht… Das war mein einziger Halt gewesen, daß ich dafür nicht zuständig war, daß ich eben nicht wußte, was mit den Leuten geschah… Aus diesen Sachen, die Sie uns nun gesagt haben, geht doch hervor, daß Sie sich Gedanken gemacht haben Das waren meine inneren Gefühle… Und nun lasen Sie jeden Tag die Zeitung, Sie werden noch mehr Nachrichten bekommen habe, Auslandzeitschriften, Auszügen aus Feindzeitungen usw… und da haben Sie sich doch Gedanken gemacht, wie wirken sich die von mir durchgeführten Maßnahmen, im feindlichen und im neutralen Ausland aus. – Das ist aber sekundär. Nein, das ist gleich, ob sekundär oder primär, wir wollen wissen was Sie sich gedacht haben. Ich sagte vor Wochen schon einmal, daß ich mal zu Wi… sagte, daß ich auf dem Standpunkt stehen würde, daß der Nationalsoz. nie und nimmer 1000 Jahre bestehen würde – das: mein Standpunkt sei, daß wenn AH tot wäre, das Reich in die Feldherrninteressen zerfallen würden und genau so in sich zerbrechen würde wie jedes große Reich in der Geschichte kurz nach dem Ableben des Begründers zerfiel.

Draft translation

And when I then saw how the young men of the Waffen SS were shooting at these Jews in the pit, I just caught the last salvos, then I somehow became different-- then my knees trembled exactly as they did once when Hoess showed me a thing where corpses were being burned, I trembled in the knees, I have said it once already,--I had to summon all my strength back then before Hoess's escort detachment that whirred along behind us, for I had no escorts, so that I would not somehow keel over out of my slippers there. That is thus yet another reinforcement to this, that it is out of the question, with your mental disposition, to have simply carried [it] out throughout, without having made thoughts to yourself..-- I am completely convinced of it, that when you were in Auschwitz the first time, that you were a That I was an unhappy man, yes that is correct.-- There you now saw the final-destination station after all the long time of the efforts to solve the Jewish problem Yes, yes, that is correct-- my only consolation with all the deportations for me was then, that I precisely did not know, does he die or not.... That had been my only support, that I was not responsible for it, that I precisely did not know what happened to the people.... From these things, which you have now told us, it does emerge, that you have made thoughts to yourself Those were my inner feelings.... And now you read the newspaper every day, you will have received still more news, foreign periodicals, excerpts from enemy newspapers etc... and so you did make thoughts to yourself, how do the measures carried out by me have effect, in the enemy and in the neutral foreign countries.-- But that is secondary. Now, it is the same, whether secondary or primary, we want to know what you thought. I said weeks ago already once, that I once said to Wi.. that I would take the standpoint, that National Soc. would never and ever exist for 1000 years--that: [DEL: xxxxxx] would be my standpoint, that if AH were dead, the Reich would fall apart into the interests of the military commanders and would break apart within itself exactly as every great empire in history disintegrated shortly after the passing of its founder.

[Overlapping talk. Discussion of history.]

By that I mean that such thoughts occupied me while I was, so to speak, burdened with work for the Security Police and the SD (Security Service). And I tried, as it were, to get at the meaning: why the harshness, when nothing lasts forever? And because I was still dragging along a remnant of the Christian upbringing of my youth, I asked myself: what is this harshness for? No order was more welcome to me than the one I probably dictated a dozen times: avoidable harshness was to be avoided. Wherever I came anywhere near excesses, I took firm action.

Those were my thoughts, those were my feelings. What effects the orders of our highest leadership had or might have for the German people was not for me to concern myself with. Because, being a pessimist by nature, I said first and foremost: it is all for nothing anyway… We want to try to build the house for our children so firmly and solidly that they will not have it as hard as we do. We can do no more than that, and the more generations follow us and the longer they continue, the calmer and better it should be.

Questioner

But I believe that you did reflect, on the basis of the reports you received from Office VI, or Office III: what effects are the measures I have carried out having on public feeling? You did think about that.

Eichmann

Let us suppose we are in total war. Everyone takes part in it wherever he happens to be, whether a soldier at the front or a civilian at home, and so on. Everyone probably gave some thought, in the work assigned to him, to whether what I am doing now serves to achieve victory, or what it is good for…

Questioner

What effect, then, did the things you carried out have on neutral nations? It was important to keep them neutral or draw them over to us, was it not? It was precisely the measures you took that sent enemy propaganda into overdrive. Against us…

Eichmann

You keep mixing up the two parts of the matter. I had nothing to do with the extermination, only with deportation, and that was the least of the evils.

Questioner

Yes, but the thing ran on an assembly line.

Eichmann

No, there was one HA (main office) here and another HA (main office) there.

Open page image and German
Page 547 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 547 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Durcheinander… Geschichtliche Debatte… Damit will ich sagen, daß mich solche Gedanken beschäftigten, als ich mit Arbeiten für die SIPO und SD sozusagen belastet war. Und ich versuchte mir den Sinn gewissermaßen herauszuschälen, – warum die Härte wenn doch nichts ewig dauert. – Und ich sagte mir, weil ich immer noch einer Rest christlicher Erziehung aus meiner Jugendzeit mit herüberschleppte, wozu diese Härte. Und kein Befehl war mir willkommener gewesen, den ich wohl dutzendmal diktierte, daß vermeidbare Härten, zu vermeiden seien… Überall wo ich nur ungefähr auf Auswüchse traf, habe ich durchgegriffen… Das waren meine Gedanken gewesen, das waren meine Gefühle. Welche Auswirkungen die Befehle unserer obersten Führung für das deutsche Volk haben oder haben könnten, das hatte mich nicht zu interessieren. Weil ich primär, als Pessimist schon von Haus aus, gesagt habe… es ist eh alles für die Katz… wir wollen versuchen das Haus für unsere Kinder, so fest und so solide zu bauen, damit sie es nicht so hart haben wie wir. Mehr können wir nicht tun, und je mehr und je länger Generationen nach uns folgen, um so ruhiger und um so besser soll es sein. Ich glaube aber, daß Sie doch einmal nachgedacht haben, auf Grund der Meldungen, die Sie vom Amt VI bzw. vom Amt III bekommen haben, wie sind die stimmungsmäßigen Auswirkungen meiner durchgeführten Maßnahmen. Da haben Sie sich Gedanken gemacht. – Nehmen wir nun mal an – wir sind im totalen Krieg, jeder nimmt daran teil an der Stelle, an der er ben sitzt, ob daß nun der Frontsoldat ist oder der Zivilist im Inneren, usw… Daß sich da jeder wohl bei der jeweiligen ihm zugeteilten Arbeit sich Gedanken gemacht hat, ist daß nun für die Erringung des Sieges oder für was ist es gut, was ich jetzt mache… – Welche Einflüsse hatten als Ihre Ausführungen bei den neutralen Nationen, – denn es war doch wichtig, sie neutral zu erhalten bzw. sie an uns heran zuziehen? Gerade die von Ihnen getroffenen Maßnahmen wurde ja die Feindpropaganda auf Hochtouren gebracht. Gegen uns… Sie verwechseln immer wieder die Sachen in zwei Teile zu teilen, mit der Vernichtung hatte ich nichts zu tun gehabt, sondern nur mit der Deportierung, und das war das geringste Übel gewesen. Ja, aber die Sache lief doch auf einem Fließband Nein, hier war ein HA und dort war ein HA

Draft translation

Confusion..... Historical debate... By this I want to say that such thoughts occupied me when I was, so to speak, burdened with work for the SIPO and SD. And I tried to extract the meaning to a certain extent,--why the harshness if after all nothing lasts forever.--And I said to myself, because I still dragged along a remnant of Christian upbringing from my youth, what for this harshness. And no order had been more welcome to me, which I dictated indeed dozens of times, that avoidable harshnesses were to be avoided.. Everywhere where I only approximately encountered excesses, I intervened firmly.. Those had been my thoughts, those had been my feelings. What effects the orders of our supreme leadership have or could have for the German people, that did not have to interest me. Because I said primarily, being a pessimist already by nature..... it is all for nothing anyway...... we want to try to build the house for our children so firm and so solid, so that they do not have it as hard as we. More we cannot do, and the more and the longer generations follow after us, the calmer and the better it should be. But I believe that you did think about it at some point, on the basis of the reports which you received from Amt VI or from Amt III, what are the mood-related effects of my carried-out measures. There you gave it thought.-- Let us now assume--we are in total war, everyone [DEL: notxandxmakesx] [DEL: onxhisx] takes part in it at the place at which he ben sits, whether that is now the front soldier or the civilian in the interior, etc.... That everyone there indeed with the respective [DEL: xxxxxxx] work allotted to him gave thought to it, is that now good for the attainment of victory or for what is it good, what I am doing now.. --What influences did then your executions/actions have among the neutral nations,---for it was after all important to keep them neutral or to draw them toward us? Precisely through the measures taken by you the enemy propaganda was indeed brought to high speed. Against us... You keep again and again confusing the things by dividing into two parts, with the extermination I had had nothing to do, but only with the deportation, and that had been the least of the evil. Yes, but the matter ran after all on an assembly line No, here was one HA and there was one HA

Questioner

Yes, but people abroad did put the two together.

That is no concern of mine.

Questioner

Yes, but surely you must have given it some thought?

Eichmann

No. Who talked about deportation during the war? They only talked about gassing.

Questioner

No, they also talked about the measures in France and Holland…

Eichmann

Those are trifles.

Questioner

And those people were then transported away. Propaganda was made about that abroad too.

Eichmann

I know what you are getting at: what people abroad may have thought about physical extermination, and that I would have thought about it. But it is no concern of mine, physical extermination… It was not my task, nor Office IV's, nor IV B 4's.

Questioner

What did you think the other day when a murderer slaughtered six children and packed them into tin cans? What did you think about that?

Eichmann

Well, I thought the fellow ought to be hanged, and the children's parents should do whatever they wanted with him.

Unknown speaker

Well, as a variation on your thoughts, I will probably have thought: this whole shitty business is no concern of mine. I am just glad that fate spared me from being the concentration camp commandant of Auschwitz.

Eichmann

And I said that I am neither grateful nor ungrateful to fate. Had it been so, I would have carried out that order too. My task did not weigh on me. One must distinguish very sharply between physical extermination and registration in the individual countries.

Questioner

Let us put it crudely: you were really the concentration camps' henchman. You had people taken to where they were killed.

Eichmann

Of course… But who was killed?

Questioner

The old people…

Eichmann

Not all the old people. Not if he was a specialist worker.

Questioner

Let us say a higher percentage.

Eichmann

That does not interest me. I did not give the order. You can also hold Reichsbahnrat (Reich Railway councillor) Stange responsible,

Open page image and German
Page 548 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 548 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Ja, aber die Sache wurde doch vom Ausland zusammen gebracht. Das geht ja mich nichts an Ja, aber Sie werden sich doch irgendwelche Gedanken darüber gemacht haben? Nein – wer hat den über die Deportierung gesprochen während des Krieges? Man hat nur über die Vergasung gesprochen Nein, man hat auch über die Maßnahmen in Frankreich und Holland… Das sind doch Kleinigkeiten Und die sind dann abtransportiert worden… man hat auch darüber im Ausland Propaganda gemacht Ich weiß was Sie wollen, Was das Ausland über die physische Vernichtung sich gedacht haben mag und daß ich mir darüber Gedanken gemacht hätte… Geht mich aber nichts an, physische Vernichtung… Ist nicht meine Aufgabe gewesen und auch nicht des Amtes IV und auch nicht IVB 4. – Was haben Sie sich neulich denn für Gedanken gemacht, daß ein Mörder 6 Kinder abschlachtete und in Konservenbüchsen verpackte, was haben Sie sich da für Gedanken gemacht. Doch ich habe mir gedacht der Kerl gehört aufgehängt und die Eltern der Kinder sollen mit ihm machen, was sie wollen. Gut und in Abwandlung Ihrer Gedanken, werde ich wahrscheinlich gedacht haben, mich geht der ganze Scheißdreck nichts an, ich bin nur froh, daß mich das Schicksal bewahrt hat, KZ Kommandant zu sein vom Auschwitz. Und ich habe gesagt, daß ich dem Schicksal weder dankbar noch undankbar bin, wenn es doch so gewesen wäre, ich hätte den Befehl auch ausgeführt… Meine Aufgabe hat mich ja nicht belastet, man muß hier sehr scharf unterscheiden zwischen der physischen Vernichtung und der Erfassung in den einzelnen Ländern. Sagen wir es einmal vulgär, an sich waren Sie doch der Handlanger für die KZ, Sie haben die Menschen dort hinbringen lassen, wo sie umgebracht wurden, – Natürlich… aber wer ist denn getötet worden… Die Alten… Nicht alle Alten, wenn er Spezialarbeiter war nicht. Sagen wir ein höher Prozentsatz – Interessiert mich ja nicht, ich habe ja den Befehl nicht/gegeben. Sie können ja auch den Reichsbahnrat Stange zur Verantwortung ziehen,

Draft translation

7 Band 54 [HW: 548] Yes, but the matter was after all brought together from abroad. That is none of my business Yes, but you will surely have made some thoughts about it? No---- who spoke about the deportation during the war? One spoke only about the gassing No, one also spoke about the measures in France and Holland.... Those are trifles after all And they were then transported away...... one also made propaganda about it abroad I know what you want. What abroad may have thought about the physical extermination and that I would have made thoughts about it.... But it is none of my business, physical extermination.... Was not my task and also not of Office IV and also not IVB 4.-- What thoughts did you recently make then, that a murderer slaughtered 6 children and packed them into tin cans, what thoughts did you make about that. Well I thought to myself the fellow belongs hanged and the parents of the children shall do with him what they want. Good and in variation of your thoughts, I will probably have thought, the whole shitty muck is none of my business, I am only glad that fate has spared me from being KZ commandant of Auschwitz. And I said that I am neither grateful nor ungrateful to fate, if it had after all been so, I would have carried out the order too.. My task did not burden me after all, one must here distinguish very sharply between the physical extermination and the registration in the individual countries. Let us say it once vulgarly, in itself you were after all the handyman for the KZ, you had the people brought there where they were killed,---- Naturally..... but who was then killed..... [HW: [illegible]] The old ones... [HW: [illegible] deed..!!] Not all old ones, if he was a special worker not. Let us say a higher percentage-- Does not interest me after all, I did not give the order after all. You can after all hold the Reichsbahnrat Stange to account too,

He supplied the trains, after all. He was much worse: he was the one who first made it possible for me to transport the people.

Questioner

No, no. You said you were responsible until the people were handed over to the concentration camps. Let us leave those people out of it.

Eichmann

No, why? If you put questions like that to me, I have to point that out. Then you are being inconsistent.

[Crossed-out typed line: … — … — ….]

Since I wanted to resolve the matter on a purely political basis and then saw the whole business being switched onto another track, I adopted, as the ultimate conclusion of my wisdom, a certain Jesuitical line of thought. It put a blinder on my right side and left my view clear only to the left. I had to see to the transports and to the legal underpinning in the individual countries under our influence, so that they would hand the Jews over to us. And everything that happened to the right of that blinder I did not want to see, did not wish to look at, wanted nothing at all to do with. That is my mental picture.

On the matter of deporting children raised yesterday, I have a few more scattered thoughts to express. 1. Whatever SS Hstf. (Hauptsturmführer) Theodor Dannecker may have played down in his reporting about irregularities of every kind, the author may well have exaggerated. Had it really been as the author describes it and as it was read to me yesterday, I would have to be able to remember such a matter at least dimly. Something like that does stay in the memory, or, when one returns to it, it is suddenly brought out of the darkness again and comes at least into half-light, so that one can remember something. But I can remember absolutely nothing. I would say so if I could remember, because it would do me no good to deny something if my own people might be able to prove me wrong.

But I do not mean to deny it and say that it never happened at all. Far too much has been described for that.

Open page image and German
Page 549 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 549 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Er hat ja die Züge zur Verfügung gestellt – er war ja noch viel schlimmer, er hat mir ja erst die Möglichkeit gegeben, die Menschen zu transportieren. Nein… nein… Sie haben gesagt, daß Sie verantwortlich waren bis zur Übergabe der Leute an die KZ. Lassen wir diese Leute draußen. Nein, warum, wenn Sie mir solche Fragen stellen, dann muß ich darauf hinweisen, dann sind Sie inkonsequent. Nachdem ich die Sache auf einer rein politischen Basis zur Lösung bringen wollte und nun sah, die ganze Angelegenheit auf ein anderes Gleis gefahren wird – für mich als meiner Weisheit letzter Schluß, einen gewissen jesuitischen Gedankengang, gepachtet, der mir auf der rechten Seite eine Scheuklappe aufsetzte, meinen Blick nur nach links frei ließ. Ich hatte für die Transporte zu sorgen, für die gesetzliche Untermauerung, in den einzelnen von uns beeinflußten Ländern, damit jene uns die Juden auslieferten – und alles das, was rechts dieser Scheuklappe geschah, wollte ich nicht sehen, wünschte ich nicht zusehen, wollte ich gar nichts damit zu tun haben. – Das ist mein Gedankenbild. – Zu der gestern angezogenen Kinderdeportierungsangelegenheit habe ich noch ein paar Gedankensplitter zu äußern 1. Was der SS Hstf. Theodor Dannecker verniedlich haben mag, in seiner Berichterstattung, im Hinblick auf Unzukömmlichkeiten aller Art, das mag der Autor sicherlich aufgebauscht haben. Wäre dem wirklich so gewesen, wie der Autor es schildert und wie es mir gestern vorgelesen wurde, dann müßte ich mich an eine solche Angeleg, zu mindestens dunkel erinnern können. Denn so etwas bleibt einem ja doch im Gedächtnis haften, bzw. wenn man es dann behandelt, wieder plötzlich aus dem Dunkel hervorgezogen und kommt zumindestens ins Halbe Licht, sodaß man sich an etwas erinnern kann. Aber ich kann mich reinweg an nichts erinnern ich würde es ja sagen, wenn ich mich erinnern könnte, weil es mir ja nichts nützen würde, etwas abzuleugnen, was mir unter Umständen von meinen eigenen Leuten gegenteilig widerlegt werden kann. Ich will damit aber nicht ableugnen und sagen, es ist überhaupt nicht passiert, denn dazu ist wieder viel zu viel geschildert worden.

Draft translation

8 Volume 54 [HW: 549] He did after all place the trains at [our/my] disposal----- he was after all far worse, he did after all first give me the possibility to transport the people. No.....no.... You said that you were responsible up to the handing-over of the people to the concentration camps.. Let us leave these people out of it. No, why, if you put such questions to me, then I must point out, then you are inconsistent. [DEL: Emma]----- [DEL: Anna]------ [DEL: Krach] After I wanted to bring the matter to a solution on a purely political basis and now saw that the whole affair is being driven onto another track--for me, as my wisdom's final conclusion, a [TS INS: onto the] certain jesuitical train of thought, leased/appropriated, which put on me [DEL: [illegible]] the right side a blinker/flap, left my gaze free only toward the left. I had to see to the transports, to the legal underpin- ning, in the individual countries influenced by us, so that those would deliver the Jews to us--- and everything that happened to the right of this blinker, I did not want to see, did not wish to look at, wanted to have nothing at all to do with it.-That is my mental image.---- ----- ------ To the child-deportation matter raised yesterday I have still a few splinters of thought to express 1. What SS Hstf. Theodor Dannecker may have played down, in his reporting, with regard to improprieties/shortcomings of all kinds, that the author has surely inflated. Had it really been so, as the author depicts it and as it was read aloud to me yesterday, then I would have to be able to remember such a matter, at least dimly. For something like that does after all stay stuck in one's mem- ory, that is, when one then deals with it, again suddenly drawn out of the darkness and comes at least into half-light, so that one can remember something. But I can remember absolutely nothing, I would indeed say it, if I could remember, because it would be of no use to me to deny something that could under some circumstances be refuted to the contrary by my own people. But I do not thereby want to deny and say, it did not happen at all, for far too much has again been described for that.

I mean that something must have happened, but it cannot have been so terrible, otherwise I would have remembered it.

2. But if it really was as gruesome as the author says it was, then I must conclude that Dannecker, the Commander of the Security Police and the SD (Security Service) in Paris, and the Higher SS and Police Leader let themselves be made fools of by the French. The French, as the author says, even emptied the orphanages for them and touted the children as though trying to get rid of sour beer. These three would then have fallen for that touting and, to the malicious satisfaction of the French police, so to speak, evacuated and deported a large proportion. From the outset they could have foreseen the greatest sympathy from world opinion, and, skillfully exploited, that must have torpedoed further possibilities for deportation and automatically turned against it even those French people who had previously favored deportation.

3. That the receiving camp, in this case, as is stated, Auschitz, sent the wagons back so that the corpses of Jewish children were found in them in the Belgian region, I have to consign to the realm of the usual fairy tales of atrocities against children that we know from the First World War, which also come from that very area. Another interesting thing is that the witness cannot name anyone as a witness apart from one Jewish woman. And there is something else that would have to be established.

I do not believe at all that the trains departed directly and went directly to the destination. They were fully utilized en route, because, as far as I can remember, the escort personnel always returned on regular trains. I would not assert it a hundred percent, but ninety-nine percent: the trains never returned empty over the long distances; they were somewhere in circulation and were taken out of circulation again. But that would have to be established, because I am not entirely sure…

4. You have found so many documents and papers, and now I ask myself: where are the documents concerning the children's matters, credible documents, of course? That is all I have to say about this matter at the moment.

Open page image and German
Page 550 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 550 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Ich will damit sagen, daß da irgendetwas gewesen sein muß, aber es kann nicht so fürchterlich gewesen sein, sonst würde ich es mir gemerkt haben 2. Wenn es aber nun wirklich so schaurig hergegangen sein soll, wie es der Autor schildert, dann muß ich feststellen, daß sich Dannecker, sowohl als auch der Befehlshaber der SIPO und SD in Paris, als auch der Höh. SS und Pol. Führer, von den Franzosen haben für dumm verkaufen lassen. Die ihnen, wie der Autor sagt, sogar die Waisenhäuser ausgeräumt haben, die Kinder angepriesen haben, wie saures Bier. Und auf diese Anpreisungen waren diese drei nun hereingefallen und hätten gewissermaßen zur Schadenfreude der franz Polizei, hier einen großen Teil evakuiert und deportiert, wo sie von vorneherein mit dem allergrößten Mitleid der Weltöffentlichkeit haben rechnen können und daß das bei geschickteser Ausschlachtung zur Torpetierung von weiteren Deportationsmöglichkeiten geführt haben muß und wo sie auch die Franzosen, die bisher für eine Deportierung eingestellt waren, automatisch dagegen gestellt bekamen. 3. Daß das Aufnahmelager, in dem Fall, wie festgestellt wird, Auschitz, die Waggons hat zurückrollen lassen, sodaß im Raum Belgien Jüd Kinderleichen in den Waggons gefunden wurden, das muß ich in den Bereich der üblichen Kindergreuelmärchen verweisen, die wir ja aus dem 1. Weltkrieg kennen, die ja auch just aus diesem Raum stammen… Interessant ist noch in diesem Zusammenhang, daß der Zeuge außer einer Jüdin als Zeugin niemanden nennen kann. Dazu kommt noch, es müßte festgestellt werden. – Ich glaube es gar nicht daß die Züge direkt abgefahren sind und direkt zu dem Bestimmungsort die sind unterwegs ausgelastet worden, denn soviel ich mich erinnern kann, sind die Leute vom Begleitpersonal immer mit regulären Zügen zurückgekommen. – Ich möchte es nicht 100% behaupten, aber zu 99% daß die Züge auf den langen Strecken nie leer zurück gefahren sind, daß die irgendwo im Umlauf waren und aus dem Umlauf wieder herausgezogen wurden… Das müßte aber festgestellt werden, da ich nicht ganz sicher bin… 4. Sie haben doch soviel Dokumente und Papiere aufgefunden und nun frage ich mich, wo sind die Dokumente geblieben, die die Kinderangelegenheiten betreffen, freilich Dokumente die glaubwürdig sind. Damit habe ich in dem Augenblick zu dieser Sache nichts mehr zu sagen.

Draft translation

9 Volume 54 [HW: 550] I want to say by this that something must have happened there, but it cannot have been so terrible, otherwise I would have remembered it. 2. But if it really did proceed so gruesomely as the author depicts, then I must conclude that Dannecker, as well as the Commander of the SIPO and SD in Paris, as well as the Higher SS and Police Leader, let themselves be taken for fools by the French. Who, as the author says, even cleared out the orphanages for them, extolled the children like sour beer. And these three had now fallen for these extollings and had, so to speak to the malicious joy of the French police, evacuated and deported a large part here, where from the outset they could have reckoned with the very greatest sympathy of world public opinion, and that this, with more skillful exploitation, must have led to the torpedoing of further deportation possibilities, and where they also got the French, who up to then had been in favor of a deportation, automatically turned against it. 3. That the reception camp, in this case, as is established, Auschitz, let the wagons roll back, so that in the Belgium area Jewish children's corpses were found in the wagons, that I must relegate to the realm of the usual atrocity-tales-about-children, which we do indeed know from the 1st World War, which also just originate from this very area....... Interesting in this connection is furthermore that the witness can name no one besides one Jewess as witness. Added to this, it would have to be established.-- I do not believe it at all that the trains departed directly and directly to the destination, they were utilized/put to use en route, for as much as I can remember, the people of the escort personnel always came back with regular trains.-- I would not want to assert it 100%, but 99% that the trains never traveled back empty on the long stretches, that the xxx were somewhere in circulation and were pulled out of circulation again... That would however have to be established, since I am not entirely sure...... 4. You did find so many documents and papers, and now I ask myself, where have the documents gone that concern the children's matters, admittedly documents that are credible. With that I have nothing more to say on this matter at this moment.

Questioner

Can you tell me whether it is true that responsibility for the gas chambers and crematorium buildings lay with Office Group C, (probably after) such buildings were requested by Office Group D?

Within the VWHA, I do not know. I am not informed about that.

[Page 137: plan.]

I am seeing that for the first time. The RSHA (Reich Security Main Office) had nothing to do with it.

Questioner

Have you ever heard of an SS Ustf. (Untersturmführer) Becker?

Eichmann

No.

Questioner

He was assigned with a detachment for gassing vans?

Eichmann

In which area?

Questioner

Kiev.

Eichmann

No…

[Quiet reading aloud.]

I am also hearing for the first time here that people were gassed up in Russian-occupied territory. I always thought they had only shot people.

[Quiet reading aloud by Comrade Sassen.]

Questioner

Does it not say who all these things came under?

He writes that to SS Ostbf. (Obersturmbannführer) Rauf.

Questioner reads from a court document

Rauf, Prinz-Albrecht Street 8.

Eichmann

I know the name…

Questioner reads from a court document

Teletype from Riga to the RSHA (Reich Security Main Office), II D 3 a. GRS (Secret Reich Matter). Concerning S-goods (S-Waren).

Eichmann

Now, I do not know this matter. But if this letter, this document, did not exist, everyone would naturally assume that it too was handled by the section dealing with Jewish affairs. But you can see from it that that is not true at all. And there were, or rather there still are, other things I really know nothing about. We had nothing at all to do with all that technical stuff. As I have said so often, we always had only a political solution in mind. When that was not how things turned out, we, IV B 4, were naturally brought in too, but only in matters of transport and registration. The rest did not concern us. Our work was essentially finished once we had the timetables drawn up, jointly with the Reich Transport Ministry, after I could tell the Reich Transport Ministry how many trains I needed. I was told that, for one thing, by the office that

Open page image and German
Page 551 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 551 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Können Sie mir sagen, ob es stimmt, daß für die Gaskammern und Krematorienbauten die Verantwortung der Amtsgruppe C nachdem solche Bauten von der Amtsgruppe D angefordert wurden Innerhalb des VWHA, daß weiß ich nicht, darüber bin ich nicht im Bilde Seite 137; Plan Den sehe ich zum ersten Mal – Damit hatte das RSHA nichts zu tun. Habe Sie je einmal von einem SS Ustf. Becker gehört? Nein – Der war angesetzt mit einem Kommando für Vergasungswagen? In welchem Raum? Kiew… Nein… (Leises Vorlesen – Ich höre hier auch zum ersten Mal, daß oben im russ besetzten Gebiet vergast worden ist, ich dachte immer, die hätten nur erschossen. (Leises Vorlesen von Kamerad Sassen –) Ist denn nicht angegeben, wem die ganzen Sachen unterstanden? Er schreibt das an den SS Ostbf. Rauf Rauf – Prinz Albrecht Str. 8 Den Namen kenne ich… Fernschreiben aus Riga an das RSHA II D 3 a. GRS. btr. S-Waren. Nun ich kenne diese Angelegenheit nicht, aber wäre nun dieses Schreiben dieses Dokument nicht vorhanden, dann würde selbstverst. alle Welt annehmen, daß diese Sache auch das Dezernat gemacht hat, das die Judenangeleg bearbeitet hat. – Aber Sie sehen daraus, das es gar nicht stimmt. Und so gab es noch, bzw. gibt es noch andere Sachen von denen ich tatsächlich nichts weiß, – Wir haben überhaupt mit dem ganzen techn. Kram nichts zu tun gehabt… wir haben immer nur, wie ich schon so oft sagte, die politische Lösung im Auge gehabt. Wie nun nicht so an dem war, sind wir selbstverständlich auch mit eingeschaltet worden, IVB 4, aber nur transportmäßig, erfassungsmäßig – das andere hat uns nicht angegangen, und unsere Arbeit war erledigt gewesen an sich in dem wir die Fahrpläne erstellen ließen – die mit dem Reichsverkehrminst gemeinsam erstellt wurden, nachdem ich dem Reichsverkehrminist. sagen konnte, wieviel Züge ich brauche, und das hat mir einmal die Stelle genannt, die die

Draft translation

10 Volume 54 351 that Can you tell me whether it is true, [DEL: mm] [TS INS: that] for the gas chambers and crema- torium constructions the responsibility [lay with] Amtsgruppe C after, such constructions were requested by Amtsgruppe D Within the WVHA, that I do not know, about that I am not in the picture Page 137; Plan That I am seeing for the first time--The RSHA had nothing to do with that. Have you ever heard of an SS Ustf. Becker? No--- He was assigned with a detachment for gassing vans? In which area? Kiev.. No... (Quiet reading aloud-- I too am hearing here for the first time that up in the Russian-occupied territory gassing was done, I always thought they had only shot. (Quiet reading aloud-by comrade Sassen--) Is it not then stated to whom all these things were subordinate? He writes that to the SS Ostbf. Rauf Rauf--Prinz Albrecht Str. 8 That name I know----- Teletype from Riga to the RSHA II D 3 a. GRS. re. S-goods. Now I do not know this matter, but were now this letter this document not present, then of course all the world would assume that this matter too was done by the section that handled the Jewish affairs.- But you see from it, that it is not true at all. And so there were still, or rather there still are other matters of which I actually know nothing, --We had in general nothing to do with the whole technical stuff----we always only had, as I have so often said, the political solution in view. Since it was now not so with that, we were of course also brought in as well, IVB 4, but only with regard to transport, with regard to registration --the other did not concern us, and our work was in itself finished once we had the timetables drawn up--which were drawn up together with the Reich Transport Ministry, after I could tell the Reich Transport Ministry how many trains I needed, and that once named to me the office that the

carried out the registration. I did not carry that out myself. I never had the personnel for it, never. And, for another thing, when the receiving stations were named to me by the VWHA… Yes, had my section consisted of 2,000 people, it would certainly have been impossible for me to prove that I had nothing to do with registration. But I had only officials, and in Hungary a few people as a transport escort detachment. How the transports were assembled and how they were fed was not for me to concern myself with, although I did give guidelines as points of reference for the Hungarian gendarmerie. I cannot judge whether they followed them. I could not do anything; it was not within my command authority.

And I will tell you something else about your questions on why IV B 4 keeps turning up. I have already explained that. But here you really have another example: a completely new section that has never come up before and is again in charge. It really is as I told you. It really was not a case of brushing off any responsibility on my part. No, everyone, absolutely everyone, interfered and involved himself in these matters, and everyone thinks he has to contribute to the work wanted by the higher leadership. They pushed their way right in. But today they all want nothing more to do with it. Today it is section IV B 4, the Gestapo (Secret State Police) of Office 4, that is left. Everyone else shirks and, so to speak, dumps the buckets of filth on us.

Questioner

On further reflection, does the name Rauf mean nothing to you?

Eichmann

No, I know I have heard the name very often. The Gestapa (Secret State Police Office), and probably Office II as well, were in Prinz-Albrecht Street. The transport dispatch office, and the Chief of the Security Police and the SD (Security Service) with the adjutant's office… In-house prison… Building management…

Open page image and German
Page 552 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 552 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Erfassung durchführte, die wurde ja nicht von mir durchgeführt, dazu habe ich ja nie Personal gehabt, nie, und zum anderen wenn mir die Aufnahmebahnhöfe genannt wurden vom VWHA. Ja, hätte mein Dezernat aus 2000 Menschen bestanden, dann wäre es sicherlich unmöglich für mich, nachzuweisen, daß ich mit der Erfassung nichts zu tun gehabt habe. Aber ich hatte ja nur Beamte gehabt und in Ungarn ein paar Leute als Transportbegleitkommando. Wie die Transporte zusammengestellt wurden, wie sie verpflegt wurden, daß hatte mich nicht zu interessieren, obgleich ich hier Richtlinien als Anhaltspunkte für die ung. Gend. gegeben habe. Ob sie sich danach richteten, kann ich nicht beurteilen, ich konnte ja nichts unternehmen, es lag ja nicht in meiner Befehlsgewalt… Und ich will Ihnen noch weiter sagen, auf Ihre Fragen, warum immer wieder IVB 4 aufkreuzt – habe ich Ihnen schon erklärt – aber hier in Wahrheit haben Sie wieder ein Beispiel mehr, hier ist ein ganz neues Dezernat, daß noch nie aufkreuzte, das wieder federführend ist und es ist wirklich so, wie ich Ihnen gesagt habe – es ist wirklich nicht ein Abwimmeln von irgendwelcher Verantwortung meinerseits gewesen… nein, es hat sich jeder aber auch jeder in diese Sachen mit hineingemischt und hineingehangen und jeder glaubt etwas dazu beitragen zu müssen zu der von der hohen Führung gewünschte Arbeit. Sie haben sich ja direkt hineingedrängelt – aber heute wollen die alle nichts mehr davon wissen. Heute bleibt das Dezernat IV B 4, nämlich die Gestapo des Amtes 4 übrig, alles andere drückt sich und wirft gewissermaßen die Unratkübel auf uns. Bei näherem Nachdenken sagt der Name Rauf nichts? Nein, ich weiß, daß ich den Namen sehr oft gehört habe – In der Prinz-Albrecht Str war das Gestapa und wohl auch das Amt II drin. Die Fahrdienstleitung und Chef der SIPO und SD mit Adjutantur. – Hausgefängnis – Hausverwaltung…

Draft translation

carried out the registration/recording, that was indeed not carried out by me, for that I never had personnel, never, and for another thing when the reception/arrival stations were named to me by the VWHA. Yes, had my section [Dezernat] consisted of 2000 people, then it would surely be impossible for me to prove that I had nothing to do with the registration. But I had indeed only officials [Beamte] and in Hungary a few people as transport-escort-detachment [Transportbegleitkommando]. How the transports were put together, how they were provisioned/fed, that was not for me to be interested in, although I here gave guidelines as points of reference for the Hung[arian] gend[armerie]. Whether they conducted themselves accordingly, I cannot judge, I could indeed undertake nothing, it did not lie within my command authority [Befehlsgewalt].... And I want to tell you still further, to your questions, why again and again IVB 4 crops up—I have already explained to you—— but here in truth you have again one more example, here is a completely new section [Dezernat], that never yet cropped up, that again is in charge [federführend] and it really is so, as I told you—it really was not a fobbing-off/brushing-away [Abwimmeln] of any responsibility on my part... no, everyone but also everyone meddled and got mixed up in these matters and everyone believes he must contribute something to the work desired by the high leadership. They directly pushed/shoved themselves in—but t o d a y they all want to know nothing more about it. Today the section IV B 4, namely the Gestapo of Office 4 [Amt 4], remains left over[.], everything else shirks/dodges and to a certain extent throws the refuse-buckets [Unratkübel] onto us. On closer reflection the name Rauf says nothing? No, I know that I have heard the name very often—In the Prinz-Albrecht Str[asse] that was the Gestapa and probably also Amt II in there. The traffic-dispatch control [Fahrdienstleitung] and Chief of the SIPO and SD with adjutancy.—— House-prison [Hausgefängnis]——— House-administration [Hausverwaltung].....

Questioner

Did reports actually reach you from the Baltic states, or did you ever see summary activity reports?

As far as I can still remember today, it was said that the matter in the Baltic states had been solved on the spot. I never had anything to do with it either.

Questioner reads from the Stahlecker report

It is said of Latvia, for example, that in 1935 there were 93,000 Jews there. When the Germans marched in, there were still 70,000 Jews in Latvia; the rest had fled with the Bolsheviks. Jewish-Bolshevik rule had deported 33,000 Latvians, and by October 1941 the special detachments (Sonderkommandos), which consisted mainly of Latvians, had executed 30,000 Jews ….

Eichmann

Yes, up there they dealt with their own affairs themselves.

Questioner reads from the Stahlecker report

In Lithuania, wagons(?) (Wagen(?)), in 1923 there were 153,000 Jews. Forty thousand Lithuanians were sent to Siberia, and that was said to be attributable to the preparatory work of the Jews. Forty thousand Jews were then killed by the Lithuanians.

Unknown speaker

Revenge.

[Further reading aloud concerning Lithuania.]

Questioner reads from the Stahlecker report

In individual actions, a total of 136,000 Jews were liquidated.

The head of Task Force A (Einsatzgruppe A), SS Brigadeführer Stahlecker, mentions, among other things, that in the very first hours after the invasion local antisemitic forces were induced to P..(?) … against the Jews. As ordered…

[Reading aloud.]

…took the first measures on their own initiative.

Questioner

Did Stahlecker never tell you about that?

Eichmann

No, I never met him again. I last saw him when he left as a task-force commander (Einsatzgruppenchef). I had nothing more to do with him.

Questioner reads from the Stahlecker report

Then Stahlecker speaks about the … region and says that well over 400,000 Jews were counted at the time. That figure is certainly too low. Minsk had 100,000 Jews out of a population of 238,000. Nineteen thousand, most of them Jews, were shot as partisans and criminals. Estimated figures from the Wehrmacht (German armed forces) up to December 1941. Then, from December 1940, Jewish transports were run at short intervals from the Reich to Riga, Minsk and so on.

Open page image and German
Page 553 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 553 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Aus den baltischen Staaten, sind Ihnen da eigentlich Berichte zugekommen, oder haben Sie zusammenfassende Tätigkeitsberichte mal zu Augen bekommen. Soviel ich mich heute noch erinnern kann, hat es geheißen, daß die Sache in den Baltischen Staaten an Ort und Stelle gelöst worden ist. Ich habe auch nie etwas damit zu tun gehabt. Von Lettland wird zB gesagt, im Jahre 1935 waren 93000 Juden da. Als die Deutschen einmarschierten, gab es in Lettland noch 70 000 Juden der Rest war mit den Bolschwisten geflüchtet. Die jüd. Bolsch. Herrschaft hatte 33000 Letten verschleppt und bis zum Okt 41 haben die Sonderkommandos die hauptsächlich aus Letten bestanden, 30 000 Juden exekutier… Ja, die haben dort oben ihre Sache selber erledigt. In Litauen Wagen(?) im Jahre 1923 waren 153 000 Juden – 40 000 Litauer wurden nach Sibirien geschickt und das wäre auf die Vorarbeit der Juden zurückzuführen – und 40 000 Juden wurden dann von den Litauern umgelegt Die Revanche Weiteres Vorlesen, bzgl. Litauen – in Einzelaktionen wurden insgesamt 136 000 Juden liquidiert. Der Führer der Einsatzgruppe A, der SS Brigadeführer Stahllecker, erwähnt u.a. daß schon in den ersten Stunden nach dem Einmarsch einheimische antisemitische Kräfte zu P…(?) gegen die Juden veranlaßt wurden. Befehlsgemäß… Vorlesen… … die ersten Maßnahmen von sich aus getroffen haben. – F: Stahllecker hat Ihnen gegenüber davon nie erzählt? A: Nein, ich habe ihn ja nie mehr getroffen – als er wegging als Einsatzgruppenchef habe ich ihn zum letzten Mal gesehen. Ich hatte nichts mehr mit ihm zu tun gehabt. – Dann spricht Stahllecker über den Raum, sagt, daß damals weit über 400 000 Juden gezählt wurden, sicherlich zu niedrig gegriffen diese Ziffer – Minsk hatte bei einer Einwohnerzahl von 238000 – 100 000 Juden. – 19000 wurden als Partisanen und Verbrecher, in der Mehrzahl Juden erschossen. Schätzungsweise Angaben von der Wehrmacht bis Dez 41. Dann wurden seit dem Dez. 40 aus dem Reich in kurzen Abständen Judentransp. nach Riga, Minsk usw. geführt.

Draft translation

12 [?Band 54?] [HW: 553] [HW: [?✓?]] From the Baltic states, did reports actually reach you there, or did you at some point get to see summary activity reports. As far as I can still remember today, it was said that the matter in the Baltic states was solved on the spot. I also never had anything to do with it. [HW: [?✓?]] Of Latvia it is said for example, in the year 1935 there were 93000 Jews there. When the Germans marched in, there were still 70,000 Jews in Latvia, the rest had fled with the Bolshevists. The Jewish Bolshevist rule had deported 33000 Latvians and up to Oct 41 the special commandos, which consisted mainly of Latvians, executed 30,000 Jews. Yes, up there they took care of their matter themselves. In Lithuania [DEL: [illegible]] [TS INS: cars(?)] in the year 1923 there were 153,000 Jews— 40,000 Lithuanians were sent to Siberia and that is to be traced back to the preparatory work of the Jews—and 40,000 Jews were then killed by the Lithuanians. The revenge. Further reading aloud, regarding Lithuania——in individual actions a total of 136,000 Jews were liquidated. The leader of the Einsatzgruppe A, the SS Brigadeführer Stahllecker, mentions among other things that already in the first hours after the marching-in native antisemitic forces were induced to P..(?) against the Jews. As ordered........ reading aloud..... ...... took the first measures on their own initiative.—— [HW: F] Did Stahllecker never tell you about this? [HW: A] No, I never met him again—when he left as Einsatzgruppen-chief I saw him for the last time. I had nothing more to do with him.— Then Stahllecker speaks about the area, says that at that time well over 400,000 Jews were counted, this figure certainly set too low—Minsk had, with a population of 238000 - 100,000 Jews.— 19000 were shot as partisans and criminals, in the majority Jews. Estimated figures from the Wehrmacht up to Dec 41. Then since Dec. 40 from the Reich at short intervals Jew-transports were led to Riga, Minsk etc.

Yes, to Riga, that is right.

Questioner reads from the Stahlecker report

Twenty thousand to Riga and seven thousand to Minsk.

Eichmann

To Minsk is news to me. That certainly happened on Heydrich's orders. The task-force commanders (Einsatzgruppenchefs) certainly came to Berlin now and then to report. They will have spoken to Heydrich; he will have had it presented to him, and Heydrich will then probably have told the task-force commanders on his own initiative: we will send you more trains, and so on and so on. And that is how I then received instructions to have trains run not to Auschwitz but to Riga. It was not for me to decide the railway stations. A task-force commander or the commandant of a concentration camp would certainly not have stood for a section head simply dumping thousands of people on him.

[Page 153: map.]

No, I have never seen this map. I received no reports at all about these matters. I first heard of them when the statistician was collecting this material from me.

[Page 154.]

[File reference: IV A 1 - 24 B 41 GRS (Secret Reich Matter).]

IV A 1 is not me at all. That is a completely different section. There you have another example, another different section. I told you I had nothing to do with the reporting by the task-force commanders, and I never received any reports either. I believe section IV A 1 was the section that collected all the reports and acted as the liaison between the chiefs of Offices IV, V, III and VII and the task-force commanders.

Questioner

Was that under Müller too?

Eichmann

Yes. It is an entirely different group, IV A, and I was IV B. I have said so often that there were so many offices pushing their way into Jewish affairs…

Questioner

So one can really conclude that it was a muddle?

Eichmann

I would not call it a muddle. It would have been considerably more elegant and better if, for example, a Führer order had established an office of “Reich Commissioner for Jewish Affairs”. I had something like that in mind in Austria. After the Central Office was established there, I was aiming to obtain the (probably title) and also the legal powers of a Reich Commissioner for Jewish Affairs in

Open page image and German
Page 554 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 554 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Ja, nach Riga das stimmt. 20 000 nach Riga und 7 000 nach Minsk Nach Minsk ist mir neu – Das geschah sicherlich auf Anordnung von Heydrich. Sicherlich kamen die Einsatzgruppenchefs ab und zu mal nach Berlin zur Berichterstattung – sie werden mit Heydrich gesprochen haben, er wird sich das haben vortragen lassen und Heydrich wird dann von sich aus wahrscheinlich sich den Einsatzgruppenchefs gesagt haben, da schicken wir ihnen noch andere Züge nach usw. usw. – und so bekam ich dann Weisung Züge nicht nach Auschwitz, sondern nach Riga fahren zu lassen. – Ich hatte ja keine Eisenbahnhöfe zu bestimmen – Ein Einsatzgruppenchef oder ein Kommandant eines KZ hätte es sich bestimmt nicht gefallen lassen wenn ein Dezernent ihm einfach tausende von Menschen auflädt. – Seite 153; Karte – Nein, diese Karte habe ich nie gesehen, – ich habe überhaupt keine Berichterstattung bekommen von diesen Sachen – ich hörte davon zum ersten Mal, als der Statistiker bei mir diese Sachen sammelte… Seite 154 Aktenzeichen IV A 1 – 24 B 41 GRS IV A 1 bin ich gar nicht, das ist ein ganz anderes Dezernat, – Da haben Sie schon wieder ein Beispiel – schon wieder ein anderes Dezernat. Ich sagte Ihnen daß ich mit dem Berichterstattung nichts zu tun gehabt, der Einsatzgruppenchefs, ich habe auch nie Berichte bekommen – Ich glaube, daß Dezernat IV A 1 war das Dezernat gewesen, daß die gesamte Berichterstattung sammelte und die Verbindungsstelle zwischen dem Amtschefs IV, V, III, VII mit den Einsatzgruppenchefs war. Das unterstand auch Müller? Ja – es ist ja auch eine ganz andere Gruppe IV A und ich war IV B – Ich sagte ja schon so oft, es gab soviele Stelle, die sich in die Judenangelegenheiten hineindrängelten… Daraus kann man doch eigentlich folgern, daß es ein Durcheinander war; Durcheinander möchte ich nicht sagen – es wäre wohl bedeutend eleganter und besser gewesen, es wäre zB durch einen Führerbefehl eine Stelle geschaffen worden „Reichskommissar für die Judenangelegenheiten“ Mir schwebte so etwas vor in Östreich – dort war ich darauf aus nach Errichtung der Zentralstelle, daß ich dort das Prätikat und auch die gesetzlichen Befugnisse bekomme eines Reichskommissärs für die Judenangelegenheiten in

Draft translation

Yes, to Riga that is correct. 20,000 to Riga and 7,000 to Minsk To Minsk is new to me-- That certainly happened on Heydrich's order. Certainly the Einsatzgruppen chiefs came to Berlin now and then to report--they will have spoken with Heydrich, he will have had it presented to him and Heydrich will then probably of his own accord have told the Einsatzgruppen chiefs, we will send them still more trains etc. etc.--and so I then got instructions to have trains run not to Auschwitz, but to Riga. -- I had no railway stations to determine--- A Einsatzgruppen chief or a commandant of a concentration camp would certainly not have put up with it if a desk officer simply dumps thousands of people on him.-- Page 153; map- No, this map I have never seen, --- I got no reporting at all from these matters--- I heard of it for the first time when the statistician was collecting these things at my [office]----- Page 154 File reference IV A 1 - 24 B 41 GRS IV A 1 I am not at all, that is a completely different desk, --- There you have another example again --again a different desk. I told you that I had nothing to do with the reporting, of the Einsatzgruppen chiefs, I also never got reports--- I believe that desk IV A 1 was the desk that collected the entire reporting and was the liaison office between the office chiefs IV, V, III, VII with the Einsatzgruppen chiefs. That was also under Mueller? Yes--- it is after all also a completely different group IV A and I was IV B--- I already said so often, there were so many offices that pushed their way into the Jewish affairs....... From that one can actually infer that it was a muddle; Muddle I would not want to say--- it would probably have been considerably more elegant and better, if for example through a Führer order an office had been created "Reich Commissioner for Jewish Affairs" Something of the sort was in my mind in Austria--there I was intent, after the establishment of the Central Office, on my getting there the practicum and also the legal powers of a Reich Commissioner for Jewish Affairs in

reunified Austria. From there it would have been another step to Jewish affairs as a whole. I would have taken this Jewish sector out of all the central authorities and set up a separate office, a “Reich Commissariat for the Solution of the Jewish Question”. Everything, everything, everything would have proceeded from that office, and who knows whether it might not then have led to an elegant political solution. For today, with this solution, far too many offices had had a hand in it, had been forceful in argument, and had advocated and pushed through the most radical position.

A position I could never have adopted, given my many years of preparatory work in the field of the Jewish question, because it would have made no sense to me ideologically. Perhaps Heydrich and Müller never even put the harsh side of these matters under me in the first place, but put these matters under others instead. And you know, once that begins, it spreads in circles, just as when I throw a stone into a pond. Every office really did, as I have already said, claim it for itself whenever it had the lead and the little “Jews” sector was involved. Lange too saw it for the first time when he saw Dr. Blau's collection of laws.

Open page image and German
Page 555 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 555 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Dem wiedervereinten Östreich. Von da aus wäre es ein nächster Schritt gewesen für die Judenangelegenheiten überhaupt – ich hätte diesen Judensektor aus allen Zentralinstanzen herausgezogen und hätte ein eigenes Amt errichtet „Reichskommissariat für die Lösung der Judenfrage“. Alles, alles, alles wäre von diesem Amt ausgegangen und wer weiß, ob es nicht dann zu einer eleganten, politischen Lösung gekommen wäre denn heute, bei dieser Lösung, hatten viel zu viel Stellen ihre Hand im Spiel gehabt – und waren wortgewaltig gewesen und haben den radikalsten Standpunkt vertreten und durchgedrückt. Einen solchen Standpunkt, den ich auf Grund meiner langjährigen Vorarbeit auf dem Gebiet der Judenfrage nie hätte einnehmen können – weil er mir idiologisch gar nicht eingegangen wäre. Vielleicht hat auch Heydrich und Müller mir die Schärfe dieser Sachen erst gar nicht unterstellt, sondern hat hier die Sachen anderen unterstellt. Und Sie wissen, wenn das nun einmal anfängt, dann zieht das Kreise, genau so, wenn ich einen Stein in einen Teich werfe, – Hier hat nun tatsächlich eine jede Stelle, wie ich schon sagte, wenn sie federführend war, und es das Sektörchen „Juden“ anging, auch für sich vereinnahmt. Erstmalig hat Lange es ja auch gesehen, als er die Gesetzessammlung von Dr, Blau sah. –

Draft translation

To the reunited Austria. From there it would have been a next step for the Jewish affairs in general --I would have pulled this Jewish sector out of all central agencies and would have established a separate office "Reich Commissariat for the Solution of the Jewish Question". Everything, everything, everything would have proceeded from this office and who knows whether it would not then have come to an elegant, political solution, for today, with this solution, far too many agencies had had their hand in the game - and had been eloquent and had represented and pushed through the most radical standpoint. Such a standpoint, which I on the basis of my many years of preparatory work in the field of the Jewish question could never have adopted---because it would not at all have entered me ideologically. Perhaps Heydrich and Mueller also did not at all impute to me the severity of these things in the first place, but rather imputed the things here to others. And you know, once that begins, then it draws circles, exactly as when I throw a stone into a pond,---- Here now indeed every agency, as I already said, when it was in the lead, and it concerned the little sector "Jews", also appropriated [it] for itself. For the first time Lange too saw it, when he saw the collection of laws of Dr. Blau.-----

No interview speech on this page.

Open page image and German
Page 556 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 556 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Nachkontrollieren wann die neuen Großanlagen, Vergasungsanlagen, in Auschwitz in Betrieb genommen wurde, um dementsprechend die Kapazität berechnen zu können.

Draft translation

Volume 54 (Apart) To check afterwards when the [DEL: [illegible]] new large installations, gassing installations, in Auschwitz were put into operation, in order to be able to calculate the capacity accordingly. [HW: 55/6]

Eichmann reads from a Foreign Office telegram of May 4, 1944

“To be handled only as classified material. Telegram (G), cipher teleprinter. Budapest, 4 May 1944, 17:45. Received 5 May 1944, 13:30. No. 1179, 4 May 1944 (Secret), also for Ambassador Ritter. Further to telegram report No. 1052 of 23 April 1944.

Ghettoization work in the Carpathian region, Zone 1, completed in the last few days. Around 200,000 Jews have been registered in ten camps and ghettos. In Transylvania, Zone 2, the concentration of the roughly 110,000 Jews living in this area began today. The deportation of the 310,000 Jews from Zones 1 and 2 to Germany is to begin in mid-May; four transports a day, each carrying 3,000 Jews, are planned.

On 4 May a timetable conference for these transports takes place in Vienna, attended by representatives of the Reich Railway (Reichsbahn), the SIPO (Security Police) and the Hungarian gendarmerie. Since it is assumed that foreign Jews were also included during the concentration, the legation’s liaison man attached to Special Operations Unit Eichmann (Sondereinsatzkommando Eichmann) will visit camps in eastern Hungary during the coming week, separate out Jews of neutral and enemy states, and have them accommodated in special quarters. Veesenmayer.”

The letter bears a receipt stamp of the Foreign Office, Domestic Department II, 1870 G. A distribution stamp has long since been printed on it, indicating how the letter is to be circulated. That would be the text of a cipher-teleprinter message from the Reich Plenipotentiary in Hungary, Dr Veesenmayer, to the Foreign Office.

This letter proves, first, that I pressed for Jews of foreign nationality not to be included in the deportation, but to be exempted. It is clear that Veesenmayer, who sat behind his desk or shuttled between his desk and the offices of the Hungarian government, was never in a camp and would never have known about this had I not reported the fact to the Higher SS and Police Leader in Hungary, so that he in turn approached Veesenmayer, so that here the Foreign Office in a sense authorizes Veesenmayer: a liaison man of the German legation attached to my unit will visit eastern Hungary and, in these camps, together with the advisers I placed at the disposal of the Hungarian gendarmerie, in these camps, Jews

Open page image and German
Page 557 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 557 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Nur als Verschlußsache zu behandeln – Telegramm (G) Geheimschreiber, Budapest, 4.5.44. – 17;45 – Ankunft 5.5.44. – 13;30 Nr. 1179 – 4.5.44. (Geheim) auch für Botschafter Ritter Im Anschluß an Drahtbericht Nr. 1052 vom 23.4.44. Ghettoisierungsarbeiten im Karpatenraum, Zone 1, in diesen Tagen abgeschlossen. In 10 Lagern und Ghettos sind rund 200 000 Juden erfaßt. In Siebenbürgern, Zone 2, ist heute mit der Konzentrierung, der in diesem Gebiet rund 110 000 lebenden Juden, begonnen worden. Mit dem Abtransport der 310 000 Juden aus der Zone 1 und 2, nach Deutschland soll Mitte Mai begonnen werden und zwar sind täglich 4 Transporte mit je 3 000 Juden vorgesehen. Am 4. Mai stattfindet in Wien eine Fahrplankonferenz für diese Transporte, an der Vertreter der Reichsbahn, der SIPO und der ung. Gend. teilnehmen. Da angenommen wird, daß bei Konzentrierung auch ausl. Juden erfaßt worden sind, wird Verbindungsmann der Gesandtschaft bei Sondereinsatzkommando Eichmann im Laufe der nächsten Woche Lager in Ostungarn aufsuchen. Juden neutraler und Feindstaaten absondern und in Sonderunterkünften unterbringen lassen. Fesemeier. Das Schreiben ist abgestempelt mit einem Eingangsstempel des ausw. Amtes Inlandsabteilung II, 1870 G. – Es ist längst ein Verteilerstempel aufgedruckt, nachdem das Schreiben zu verteilen ist. Das wäre der Text eines Geheimschreiberschreibens des Reichsbevollmächtigten in Ungarn Dr. Fesemeier an das ausw. Amt. Dieses Schreiben beweist, daß 1. ich drauf drängte, daß Juden mit ausl. Staatsangeh. nicht von der Deportation erfaßt worden, sondern daß sie ausgenommen werden mußten. Es ist klar, daß Fesemeier, der ja hinter seinem Schreibtisch saß, oder zwischen seinem Schreibtisch und den Dienstzimmern der ungarischen Regierung hin und her pendelte, niemals in einem Lager war und niemals davon Bescheid gewußt hätte, hätte ich nicht diese Tatsache dem Höh. SS und Pol. Führer in Ungarn berichtet, sodaß dieser seinerseits Fesemeier angesprochen hat so, daß hier das ausw. Amt Fesemeier gewissermaßen bevollmächtigt, daß ein Verbindungsmann der deutschen Gesandtschaft bei meinem Kommando Ostungarn aufsuchen wird und in diesen Lagern gemeinsam mit den Beratern die ich der ung. Gend. zur Verfügung gestellt habe, in diesen Lagern, Juden

Draft translation

1 Volume 5[?5?] [HW: 55] To be treated only as a classified matter---Telegram (G) Cipher-teleprinter, Budapest, 4.5.44. -17;45 ---Arrival 5.5.44.-13;30 No. 1179--4.5.44. (Secret) also for Ambassador Ritter Further to wire report No. 1052 of 23.4.44. Ghettoization works in the Carpathian region, Zone 1, completed in these days. In 10 camps and ghettos around 200,000 Jews have been registered. In Transylvania, Zone 2, the concentration of the roughly 110,000 Jews living in this area has been begun today. The deportation of the 310,000 Jews from Zone 1 and 2 to Germany is to be begun in mid-May, and specifically 4 transports of 3,000 Jews each are foreseen daily. On 4 May a timetable conference for these transports takes place in Vienna, in which representatives of the Reichsbahn, the SIPO and the Hungarian Gendarmerie participate. Since it is assumed that in the concentration foreign Jews too have been registered, the liaison man of the legation with the Special Operations Command Eichmann will in the course of the coming week visit camps in eastern Hungary. Separate out Jews of neutral and enemy states and have them accommodated in special quarters. Fesemeier. The letter is stamped with an incoming stamp of the Foreign Office, Domestic Department II, 1870 G.--A distribution stamp has long since been imprinted, according to which the letter is to be distributed. That would be the text of a cipher-teleprinter letter of the Reich Plenipotentiary in Hungary Dr. Fesemeier to the Foreign Office. This letter proves that 1. I pushed for the point that Jews with foreign nationality not be caught by the deportation, but rather that they had to be exempted. It is clear that Fesemeier, who after all sat behind his desk, or shuttled back and forth between his desk and the office rooms of the Hungarian government, was never in a camp and would never have known anything about it, had I not reported this fact to the Higher SS and Police Leader in Hungary, [DEL: on his part] [DEL: [illegible]] [TS INS: so that] he for his part addressed Fesemeier [TS INS: fesemeier] so that here the Foreign Office was, so to speak, authorized, that a liaison man of the German legation will visit my Command in eastern Hungary and, in these camps together with the advisers whom I placed at the disposal of the Hungarian Gendarmerie, in these camps, Jews

Jews of enemy and neutral nationality are to be separated out and housed in special quarters, and Jews of foreign nationality in general are to be exempted. This letter shows quite clearly how sharply Special Unit Eichmann (Sonderkommando Eichmann) distinguished between them here, and how efforts were made to exempt Jews of foreign nationality from this. Second, this letter proves that deportation from Hungary only got under way in May, because it speaks of Zones 1 and 2; logically they will not have begun with Zones 4 and 5, but with Zones 1 and 2. It goes on to say that a timetable conference takes place on 4 May with representatives of the Reich Railway (Reichsbahn), the SIPO (Security Police) and the Hungarian gendarmerie, and that four transports, each with 3,000 Jews, were to run daily.

Now I ask myself: it has always been claimed that trains were already running in April, and I always took the view that this seemed rather early to me. Now it is proved here that they only ran in May—if they ran in May at all—because the timetable conference was not until 4 May. From the timetable conference, which always lasted three to four days, until the trains were made available, at least ten to fourteen days elapsed, if not more, so that at best one could reckon on after mid-May. I still had a dim recollection of something like that. I was thrown off by the book by J. Brandt.

Questioner

So it is also proof that there really were trains with 3,000; with four trains, that would be 12,000.

Eichmann

That may well be, if I had the necessary wagons.

Questioner

So four trains there and four trains back makes eight, with forty men as guards.

Eichmann

Yes, but I did not have those. The Chief of the Order Police (Ordnungspolizei) provided them.

Questioner

So altogether you had about 300 at your disposal?

Eichmann

Yes, I would estimate roughly that.

Open page image and German
Page 558 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 558 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Juden mit feindlicher und neutraler Staatsangeh. abzusondern und in Sonderunterkünfte unterzubringen, und überhaupt Juden ausl. Staatsangeh. auszunehmen sind. Es zeigt ganz klar dieses Schreiben wie scharf seitens des Sonderkommandos Eichmann hier unterschieden wurde und wie man bestrebt war, Juden ausl. Staatsangeh. hiervon auszunehmen. 2. Beweist dieses Schreiben daß die Deportation aus Ungarn erst im Mai angelaufen ist, denn man spricht ja hier von der Zone 1 und 2, man wird logischerweise ja nicht mit der Zone 4 und 5 angefangen haben, sondern eben doch mit der Zone 1 und 2… Und es heißt weiter, daß am 4. Mai eine Fahrplankonferenz statt findet mit Vertretern der Reichsbahn, der SIPO und der ung. Gend. Und daß täglich 4 Transporte mit je 3000 Juden zu fahren waren. – Jetzt frage ich mich, es ist doch immer behauptet worden, es sei schon im April gefahren worden und ich stand immer auf dem Standpunkt, daß es mir doch reichlich früh vorkam… und nun wird ja hier bewiesen daß erst im Mai gefahren worden ist, wenn überhaupt im Mai gefahren worden ist… denn am 4. Mai war ja erst die Fahrplankonferenz, denn von der Fahrplankonferenz, die doch immer 3 bis 4 Tage dauerte bis zur Verfügungstellung der Züge sind doch mindestens 10-14 Tage vergangen, wenn nicht noch mehr, sodaß man höchstens rechnen könnte, nach Mitte Mai… und so etwas war mir auch noch dunkel in Erinnerung. Ich wurde irritiert durch das Buch von J. Brandt. – Also ist es auch ein Beweis, daß es doch Züge gegeben hat mit 3000, das wären dann bei 4 Zügen 12000. – Das mag schon sein, wenn ich die nötigen Waggons hatte. Also 4 Züge hin – 4 Züge her, sind gleich 8 mit 40 Mann Bewachungspersonal Ja, die habe ich aber nicht gehabt, die hat der Chef der Ord. Pol. gestellt. Sie hatten im ganzen zur Verfügung also etwa 300? Ja, ich schätze so ungefähr…

Draft translation

to separate Jews of enemy and neutral nationality and to accommodate them in special quarters, and generally that Jews of foreign nationality are to be exempted. This letter shows quite clearly how sharply distinction was made here on the part of the Sonderkommando Eichmann and how efforts were made to exempt Jews of foreign nationality from this. 2. This letter proves that the deportation from Hungary only got underway in May, for one speaks here indeed of Zone 1 and 2; one will logically not have begun with Zone 4 and 5, but rather indeed with Zone 1 and 2.... And it says further that on 4 May a timetable conference takes place with representatives of the Reichsbahn, the SIPO and the Hungarian Gendarmerie. And that daily 4 transports with 3000 Jews each were to run.----Now I ask myself, it has always been claimed that they had already run in April and I always took the position that it did seem to me rather early.... and now it is proven here that they only ran in May, if they ran at all in May... for on 4 May the timetable conference was only [then held], for from the timetable conference, which after all always lasted 3 to 4 days, until the provision of the trains at least 10-14 days have passed, if not even more,, so that at most one could reckon, after mid-May.... and something like that was also still dim in my memory. I was irritated by the book of J. Brandt.-- So it is also a proof that there were indeed trains with 3000, that would then be with 4 trains 12000.- That may well be, if I had the necessary wagons. So 4 trains there - 4 trains back, equal 8 with 40 men guard personnel Yes, but those I did not have, the Chief of the Ordnungspolizei provided those. You had in all at your disposal then about 300? Yes, I estimate roughly.... [HW: illegible]

Questioner

How could one sum up Heydrich’s character? What, in your opinion, is the essential picture?

[Almost unintelligible on the recording because of tape noise; therefore only the words understood.]

[Typed as notes in the transcript: Heydrich a cynic; no loyalty between comrades; he placed no trust whatsoever in his followers’ loyalty … knowing the other man’s secrets; many prominent people knew that Heydrich … collected material; people hated him for it.]

[Then unintelligible on the recording again.]

[Typed as notes in the transcript:

Questioner reads aloud

Heydrich did not exempt even Hitler from his surveillance system. He had a confidential agent specifically in Munich (Muenschen), whose task was to sound out Hitler’s staff.

Questioner

]

[Then completely unintelligible on the recording again. Please excuse this; it must be the equipment and the tape.]

[Typed as notes in the transcript: Keywords: Heinrich Hoffmann, Christian Weber, Friedrich Weber … also the Nordic … Heydrich’s character was not without pathological traits; excessive ambition … (?) … ancestry not entirely pure; he wanted to see only people around him who embodied pure Germanic blood, and he himself emphasized his radiant Nordic appearance … peculiar slant of the eyebrows, attributed to Mongolian ancestry.]

[unintelligible on the recording]

[Typed as notes in the transcript: Death mask.]

[Rest completely unintelligible on the recording.]

So people would like to know what I think of Heydrich? I will try to say it in a few words: cold, hard, brutal, a great organizer, very hardworking, extremely mistrustful, a friend only when it was expedient, very clever, a man who would walk over corpses. Character traits that in themselves are extremely un-Germanic. I have one thing in common with him: I too was born in Halle an der Saale, and his father was my violin teacher. Admittedly, I only got as far as “O Christmas Tree”, and for that I received slaps from old Heydrich. I can in no way claim that he had Jewish blood, but one thing I know from my own knowledge since childhood: it was always said that the Heydrichs were not Aryan or had Jewish blood. That is about it, by and large.

Would you like to know anything more specific?

Questioner

Yes, from personal experience, or a description of this man’s character. For example, a great many events, or perhaps things that did not happen, are recounted—for instance the Bürgerbräukeller attack in 1939, which is said to have been organized by Heydrich.

Eichmann

I consider Heydrich, him in particular, capable of any deed. He is such a calculating and ambitious man—but believing means not knowing.

Open page image and German
Page 560 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 560 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Wie könnte man das charakterliche Bild von Heydrich zusammenfassen, was ist nach Ihrer Meinung das wesentliche Bild? (Durch Bandgeräusche fast unverständlich, daher nur verstandene Worte) Zyniker Heydrich, keine Kameradschaftstreue, auf Gefolgsschaftstreue setzte er keinerlei Vertrauen… von den Geheimnissen des anderen zu wissen, viele Persönlichkeiten wußten daß Heydrich… …Material sammelte, man haßte ihn deswegen, (dann wieder unverständlich) Heydrich nahm auch Hitler von seinem Überwachungssystem nicht aus, er hatte in München eigens einen Vertrauensmann der die Aufgabe hatte die Mitarbeiter Hitlers auszuhorchen, (dann wieder völlig unverständlich, bitte um Entschuldigung, es muß am Apparat und am Band liegen) – Stichworte; Heinrich Hoffmann, Christian Weber, Friedrich Weber, – auch der nordische… es fehlt in Heydrich Charakterbild auch nicht an pathologischen Zügen, unmäßiger Ehrgeiz …(?????)… nicht ganz reine Abstammung, er wollte nur Menschen um sich sehen die reine Ausprägung des germanischen Bluts darstellten und er selbst unterstrich seine strahlende nordische Erscheinung – eigenartige schiefe Stellung der Augenbrauen, man führte es auf mongolische Abstammung zurück, (Unverständlich) – Totenmaske – Rest völlig unverständlich..) Man will also gerne wissen was ich von Heydrich halte? Ich will es versuchen mit wenigen Worten zu sagen; Kalte, hart, brutal, großer Organisator, sehr fleißig, äußerst mißtrauisch Freund nur dann wenn zweckmäßig, sehr klug, ein Mann der über Leichen ging Charaktereigenschaften, die an sich äußerst ungermanisch sind. Ich habe eins mit ihm gemein, daß ich auch in Halle an der Saale geboren bin und sein Vater war mein Geigenlehrer, ich habe es allerdings nur zu „O, Tannebaum“ gebracht, dafür habe ich Backpfeiffen vom alten Heydrich bekommen, ich kann in keiner Weise behaupten, daß er jüd. Blut hätte, aber eins weiß ich, aus eigener Kenntnis von Jugend auf daß es immer geheißen hat, Heydrichs sind nicht arisch oder haben jüd. Blut – daß ist es so im Großen und Ganzen. Möchten Sie noch etwas Näheres wissen? Ja, aus dem Erlebnis heraus, oder die Charakterschilderung dieses Mannes zB. werden eine Großanzahl von Geschehnissen od viel. Nichtgeschehnissen wiedergegeben, zB, der Bürgerbräukelleranschlag 1939 der also von Heydrich organisiert sein soll. Ich halte Heydrich, gerade ihn, zu jeder Tat fähig, er ist ein so berechnender und ehrgeiziger Mann, – aber glauben heißt, nichts wissen.

Draft translation

Band 56 [HW: 160] How could one summarize the character portrait of Heydrich, what is in your opinion the essential picture? (Almost incomprehensible due to tape noise, therefore only the understood words.) Cynic Heydrich, no comradely loyalty, on the loyalty of followers he placed no trust whatsoever........to know the secrets of the other, many personalities knew that Heydrich.... ...collected material, one hated him for that, (then again incomprehensible) Heydrich did not even exempt Hitler from his surveillance system, he had in Munich specially a man of confidence whose task was to sound out Hitler's collaborators, (then again completely incomprehensible, I ask for forgiveness, it must be due to the apparatus and the tape) --- Keywords; Heinrich Hoffmann, Christian Weber, Friedrich Weber,----- also the Nordic-------there is also no lack in Heydrich's character portrait of pathological traits, immoderate ambition ....(?????)... not entirely pure descent, he wanted to see only people around him who represented pure expression of the Germanic blood and he himself underlined his radiant Nordic appearance--------peculiar slanting position of the eyebrows, one traced it back to Mongolian descent, (Incomprehensible) --death mask--- rest completely incomprehensible..) So one would like to know what I think of Heydrich? I will try to say it in a few words; Cold, hard, brutal, great organizer,, very diligent, extremely mistrustful, friend only when expedient, very clever, a man who walked over corpses. Character traits which in themselves are extremely un-Germanic. I have one thing in common with him, that I too was born in Halle an der Saale and his father was my violin teacher, I admittedly only got as far as "O, Tannenbaum," for which I received slaps from old Heydrich, I cannot in any way claim that he had Jew[ish] blood, but one thing I know, from my own knowledge from youth on, that it was always said, Heydrichs are not Aryan or have Jew[ish] blood--that is how it is on the whole and in general. Would you like to know something more detailed? Yes, out of the experience, or the character depiction of this man for example a large number of events or perhaps non-events are rendered, for example, the Bürgerbräukeller attack of 1939 which is thus said to have been organized by Heydrich. I consider Heydrich, precisely him, capable of any deed, he is such a calculating and ambitious man,--but to believe means to not know.

Those are purely feelings I am expressing, but one thing I know: he always supported the man he knew to be a counterweight to his opponents. Extraordinarily intelligent.

Questioner

In your opinion, was it easy for him to outmaneuver the RF (Reichsführer-SS)?

Eichmann

I consider that entirely possible, because he was so adroit and had such an unerring instinct for the right moment. He served up the things he wanted to achieve to the RF (Reichsführer-SS) at just the right moment. Anyone who knew the RF knows this: if, for example, you wanted to tell him something that would hit home, you had to whisper something behind a third person’s back. Then he would turn around and say, “What did you say?” And you had to fend him off and say, “No, I am not saying that.” Then he would ask again, and then came the spontaneous decisions that often would have been better left unmade, precisely because they were spontaneous. A tactic that Oberstgrf. (Oberst-Gruppenführer) Wolff understood extremely well; I would really like to crown him the master intriguer.

Questioner

Can one say that Heydrich had a loyalty complex toward the RF (Reichsführer-SS), or any loyalty at all?

Eichmann

I do not believe that the concept of loyalty existed for him at all. To be loyal you must have a soul, and Heydrich was a soulless man. Of course he worked with the RF (Reichsführer-SS), but that collaboration certainly in turn enabled him to double his strength, power and position, and the future plans that he undoubtedly had.

Questioner

Was it his ambition to become the RF’s (Reichsführer-SS’s) successor?

Eichmann

I cannot know that. It would also have depended on how he in turn stood with the Führer.

Questioner

Is anything known about that?

Eichmann

No, I do not know. In this area he was very jealous and watchful, and I can hardly believe that he would have dared to put something to the Führer behind the RF’s (Reichsführer-SS’s) back. If it had come out, it would have caused difficulties, and he probably did not want to expose himself to that.

Questioner

Can one say that Heydrich was inspired by the SS idea as such? Or was he a policeman, pure and simple?

Eichmann

I regard him as a policeman, pure and simple.

Questioner

Is that story about the Navy known—the daughter of a Navy uncle, to whom he was engaged and whom he was supposed to marry, and whom he then did not want to marry, and where he is said to have told the father, laughing,

Open page image and German
Page 561 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 561 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Das sind rein gefühlsmäßige Äußerungen, aber eins weiß ich, daß er immer den unterstützte, von dem er wußte daß er ein Gegengewicht gegen seine Gegner war. Unerhört intelligent Deiner Meinung nach, ist es ihm leicht geworden den RF zu überspielen? Das halte ich für absolut möglich, weil er so gewandt war und ein so absolutes Fingerspitzengefühl hatte, bestimmte Dinge, die er erreichen wollte, im richtigen Moment dem RF servierte und wer den RF kannte, der weiß es, wenn man zB dem RF etwas sagen wollte, das saß, dann mußte hinter dem Rücken einer dritten Person etwas flüstern, und dann drehte er sich rum und sagte, „Was haben Sie gesagt?“ Und dann mußte man sich wehren und sagen, nein, das sage ich nicht… und dann wurde noch einmal gefragt – und dann kamen die spontanen Entscheide die oft, eben weil sie spontan waren, besser nicht getroffen worden wären. Eine Taktik die der Oberstgrf. Wolf ausgezeichnet verstand, dem ich überhaupt die Krone als Intrigant aufsetzen möchte. Kann man nun sagen, daß Heydrich dem RF gegenüber einen Treuekomplex hatte, oder überhaupt Treue hatte? Ich glaube nicht, daß der Begriff Treue überhaupt für ihn bestand, denn zu Treue muß man Seele haben, und Heydrich war ein seelenloser Mensch. Er hat natürlich mit dem RF zusammen gearbeitet, was sicher aber aus dieser Zusammenarbeit widerum seiner Kraft, und Macht und Stellung und seine Zukunftspläne die er zweifellos hatte, verdoppeln ließ. Ob es seine Ambition war, der Nachfolger vom RF zu werden? Das kann ich nicht wissen, das hätte auch davon abgehangen wie weit er mit dem Führer widerum stand? Ist davon etwas bekannt? Nein, das weiß ich nicht. Auf diesem Gebiet war er sehr eifersüchtig und wachsam und ich glaube kaum, daß er es gewagt hätte, hinter dem Rücken des RF, dem Führer was beizubringen, denn wenn das raus gekommen wäre, hätte es doch Schwierigkeiten gegeben und dem wollte er sich wohl nicht aussetzen. Kann man sagen, daß Heydrich von der SS Idee als solche beseelt war? Oder war er ein reiner Polizeimann? Ich halte ihn für einen ganz reinen Polizeimann. Ist bekannt diese Geschichte mit der Marine, die Tochter eines Marineonkels mit der er verlobt war und die er heiraten sollte und die er nicht dann heiraten wollte und wo er dem Vater lachend gesagt haben soll,

Draft translation

2 Volume 56 [HW: 501] Those are purely emotional expressions, but one thing I know, that he always supported the one of whom he knew that he was a counterweight against his opponents. Outrageously intelligent In your opinion, was it easy for him to outmaneuver the RF? That I consider absolutely possible, because he was so adroit and had such an absolute instinctive tact, [that he] served certain things, which he wanted to achieve, to the RF at the right moment, and whoever knew the RF, he knows it, if one for example wanted to tell the RF something, [something] that struck home, then one had to whisper something behind the back of a third person, and then he turned around and said, "What did you say?" And then one had to defend oneself and say, no, I'm not saying that....... and then one was asked once more ---and then came the spontaneous decisions which often, precisely because they were spontaneous, would better not have been made. A tactic that the Oberstgrf. Wolf understood excellently, on whom I would altogether like to place the crown as intriguer. [HW: toward/vis-à-vis] Can one now say that Heydrich had a loyalty complex toward the RF, or had loyalty at all? I do not believe that the concept of loyalty existed for him at all, for to [have] loyalty one must have soul, and Heydrich was a soulless person. He did of course work together with the RF, which surely however out of [HW: in turn/again] this collaboration let his strength, and power and position and his future plans which he undoubtedly had, be doubled. Whether it was his ambition to become the successor to the RF? That I cannot know, that would also have depended on how far he in turn stood with the Führer? Is anything known of that? No, that I do not know. In this area he was very jealous and watchful and I hardly believe that he would have dared, behind the back of the RF, to teach the Führer something, for if that had come out, it would after all have given difficulties and he probably did not want to expose himself to that. Can one say that Heydrich was inspired by the SS idea as such? Or was he a pure policeman? I consider him a quite pure policeman. Is this story known with the Navy, the daughter of a Navy uncle to whom he was engaged and whom he was supposed to marry and whom he then did not want to marry and where he is supposed to have said to the father laughingly,

Questioner

“Yes, you see, it cost me so little, practically, to lay this girl; surely she cannot become my wife.” And that he was expelled from the Navy for it—even old Raeder intervened—and afterward it was presented as though he had been expelled from the Navy for Nazi activity.

… not known to me.

Questioner

Is it known whether Heydrich maneuvered Müller into the SS?

Eichmann

I do not know that from personal knowledge of the matter, but it was always said that if Müller had not enjoyed Heydrich’s absolute confidence, Heydrich would have expelled him. That is quite beyond question.

[Then unintelligible on the recording.]

Questioner

Was Heydrich what the two of us understand by an SS man?

Unknown speaker

No.

Eichmann

No, because his distinctive character traits have nothing to do with the picture we set up as our ideal.

Questioner

That is clear, but on the other hand his task was to protect the Reich against its enemies within. That was an immensely hard task, which of course could only be dealt with harshly.

Eichmann

What I cannot stand is collecting material about people so as to get them cheaply into my power, and that is quite beyond question, from a higher rank upward …

[A motorcycle passes; unintelligible on the recording.]

until the man was in one’s power.

Questioner

Yes, but that is a police task, something done even in a democracy.

Eichmann

Yes, but doing it through blackmail: “My dear friend, we know this and that about you; you are a swine. But we will not remove you. If you follow my line, then …”

Isn’t that so? And surely that must not happen. He is supposed to be an unblemished man, someone beyond reproach.

Questioner

It depends on whether Heydrich really did that, using information he had obtained and then resorting to blackmail, including against his SS comrades. Surely that ought to be possible to check?

Eichmann

I cannot say.

Questioner

How would you characterize the RF (Reichsführer-SS)?

Eichmann

That really cannot be said in a brief conversation.

Open page image and German
Page 562 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 562 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Ja, sehen Sie, das hat mich so wenig gekostet, praktisch dieses Mädchen umzulegen, das kann doch nicht meine Frau werden – und das er darum aus der Marine ausgestoßen wurde, es ist sogar noch der alte Reeder dazwischen gekommen – und nachher ist es dann so ausgelegt worden, daß er wegen Nazitätigkeit aus der Marine ausgestoßen worden sei [unleserlich] mir nicht bekannt Ist es bekannt, ob Heydrich den Müller reinlanciert hat in die SS? Aus eigener Sachkenntnis weiß ich das nicht, aber es hat immer gehießen daß, wenn Müller nicht das absolute Vertrauen von Heydrich genossen hätte, daß dann Heydrich den Müller ausgeschlossen hätte. Das ist ganz ohne Frage, (dann unverständlich) War der Heydrich das, was wir beide unter einem SS Mann verstehen? Nein Nein, denn seine markanten Charakterzüge haben nichts mit dem Bild zu tun, was wir uns als Ideal stellen Das ist klar, aber andererseits war es seine Aufgabe den Schutz des Reiches zu übernehmen, gegenüber seiner, Feinde aus dem Innern und das war natürlich eine unheimlich harte Aufgabe, die man natürlich auch nur hart lösen konnte. Was ich nicht leiden kann, ist, daß ich Material über Menschen sammle um sie dann billig in meine Hand zu bekommen und das ist ganz ohne Frage von einem höheren Dienstgrad aufwärts… (Motorrad fährt vorbei, unverständlich..) bis eben der Mann in der Hand war. Ja, das aber ist eine polizeiliche Aufgabe, die man sogar in der Demokratie macht… Ja, aber daß es erpresserisch gemacht wird… mein lieber Freund, das und das wissen wir von Dir, Du bist ein Schwein… aber wir setzen Dich nicht ab, wenn Du auf meine Linie gehts, dann … Ist es nicht so? Und das darf ja wohl nicht sein, er soll ja ein sauberer Mann sein, ein Unantastbarer. Es kommt darauf an, ob Heydrich das wirklich gemacht hat, auf Grund von gewonnen Informationen und dann auf erpresserischen Weg, auch bei seinen SS Kameraden, das mußte man doch nachprüfen könne? Das kann ich nicht sagen. – Wie würdest Du den RF charakterisieren? Das ist an sich mit keiner kurzen Unterhaltung gar nicht zu sagen.

Draft translation

Yes, you see, it cost me so little, practically, to bump off this girl [literally: to knock over/kill this girl], she cannot become my wife after all---and that he was therefore expelled from the Navy, even the old shipowner got involved in it--and afterwards it was then interpreted in such a way that he was supposedly expelled from the Navy on account of Nazi activity Not known to me Is it known whether Heydrich maneuvered Mueller into the SS? From my own expert knowledge I do not know that, but it was always said that, if Mueller had not enjoyed the absolute trust of Heydrich, that then Heydrich would have expelled Mueller. That is quite without question, (then unintelligible) Was Heydrich that which we both understand by an xxxxxxxx SS man? No No, for his striking character traits have nothing to do with the image that we set for ourselves as an ideal That is clear, but on the other hand it was his task to take over the protection of the Reich, against its enemies from within, and that was of course an uncannily hard task, which one could of course also only solve in a hard way. What I cannot stand is that I collect material about people in order then to get them cheaply into my hand, and that is quite without question from a higher rank upward.....(motorcycle drives past, unintelligible..) until the man was finally in hand. Yes, but that is a police task, which one even carries out in a democracy... Yes, but that it is done in a blackmailing way.....my dear friend, we know this and that about you, you are a swine........but we will not depose you, if you go along my line, then ........ Is it not so? And that surely must not be, he is supposed to be a clean man, an untouchable one. It depends on whether Heydrich really did that, on the basis of obtained information and then by a blackmailing route, also with his SS comrades, one would have to be able to verify that, wouldn't one? That I cannot say.- How would you characterize Pf [Mueller? / abbreviated name]? That is in itself not at all possible to say with my short conversation.

But I would say: “Ah, two souls dwell—alas—in my breast.” First of all, you have to know where he comes from.

He comes from Bavaria, was a teacher—hence the constant urge to be a pedagogue. He had enormous ambition and could be unusually kind-hearted and helpful, but just as readily make sudden decisions that offended the sense of justice. Extremely hardworking, a very great organizer, a very poor judge of people, unfortunately easily susceptible to being told what he wanted to hear.

Questioner

There is a document, a report from Pohl to the RF (Reichsführer-SS). It was a great honor to receive the RF’s watch. Now Pohl writes on 29 November 1944 concerning “Distribution of watches to members of the Waffen-SS”:

Questioner reads from Pohl's letter to Himmler

“To the Reichsführer—Office Group D—Oranienburg … Twenty thousand pocket watches … Last year I placed the stated allocation at the disposal of the Waffen-SS. These gifts are issued in your name to the most valued and most deserving members of this division …”

Questioner

[Then indistinct on the recording again.]

Questioner reads from Pohl's letter to Himmler

“I request your confirmation. Altogether, at present, in Work Group D, under repair …”

Questioner

Is it German, or in keeping with the SS, to take a watch from an enemy of the Reich, repair it, and then give that watch to a deserving man?

Eichmann

To that I can say: the Old Testament is a very wise and instructive book. You will find a passage in it: woe to a people in which a servant is made a leader, or a maidservant a queen. And unfortunately our leadership lacked H…(?) …. A sergeant is not yet a commander, and it was on that point that this crystal-clear nationalist outlook eventually degenerated: the struggle of the individual Reichsleiter, Reich ministers and office chiefs against one another. They squandered their strength against each other instead of working together on real nationalism, on the old idea of the struggle, and promoting it as they had once done before 1933. And of course it goes against the SS idea to hand out used watches from concentration camps as gifts of honor. Simply impossible—that is the only way I can explain it.

Questioner

How is it possible that the RF (Reichsführer-SS), who could be finicky down to the smallest detail, who on the other hand was filled with the ethos of the soldier-farmer, the ethos of being racially healthy and sensitive, who put everything into it, including his schoolmasterly pedagogy, somehow to instill the concepts

Open page image and German
Page 563 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 563 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Doch ich möchte sagen; Ach, zwei Seelen wohnen – ach, in meiner Brust"… Man muß überhaupt einmal wissen, wo er her kommt. Er stammt aus Bayern, war Lehrer, daher immer die Sucht, Pädagoge zu sein, hatte ungeheuren Ehrgeiz, konnte ungewöhnlich gutherzig und hilfsbereit, ebenso aber auch ganz urplötzlich Entscheidungen beschließen, die gegen das Rechtsgefühl gingen, ungemein fleißig, sehr großer Organisator, sehr schlechter Menschenkenner leider leicht empfänglich für zum Munde reden. Es gibt ein Dokument, d.h. eine Meldung von Pohl an den RF – und es war ja eine sehr ehrende Angelegenheit, wenn man die Uhr des RF bekam – jetzt schreibt Pohl am 29. Nov. 44 bzgl."Uhrenverteilung an Angeh. der WaffenSS" An den Reichsführer – Amtsgruppe D – Oranienburg… ; 20 000 Taschenuhren… Ich habe im Vorjahre die angeführte Kontigenz der Waffen SS zur Verfügung gestellt. Die Ausgaben dieser Gaben erfolgt in Ihrem Namen an die wertesten und würdigsten Angeh. dieser Division… (Dann mal wieder undeutlich…) bitte um Ihre Bestätigung. Insgesamt befindet sich bei der Arbeitsgruppe D zur Zeit in Reparatur… Ist das nun deutsch, bzw. SS mäßig, einem Reichsfeind die Uhr abzunehmen, sie wieder in Stand zu setzen und dann diese Uhr dem verdiensteten zu übergeben? Dazu kann ich sagen, das alte Testament, ist ein sehr kluges und lehrreiches Buch, da wirst Du eine Stelle finden; Wehe einem Volk, in dem ein Knecht zur Führung oder aber eine Magd zur Königin gemacht wird… – Und leider hat es in unseren Führung an H…(?) gemangelt ein Feldwebel ist noch kein Kommandeur und an dieser Tatsache ist diese kristallklare nationalistische Anschauung zum Schluß ausgeartet, der Kampf der einzelnen Reichsleiter, Reichsminister, Amtschefs einer gegen den anderen und so haben sie ihre Kräfte gegenseitig vergeudet anstatt gemeinsam an dem wirklichen Nationalismus an der alten Kampfidee zu arbeiten und sie zu fördern, wie schließlich einst vor 1933. Und natürlich ist das gegen die SS Idee gebrauchte Uhren aus den KZ wieder als Ehrengabe zu vergeben – einfach unmöglich, so kann ich das nur begründen… Wie ist das nun möglich, daß der RF, der bis in die Details pislich sein konnte, der doch andererseits vom Ethos des Wehrbauern erfüllt war, vom Ethos des rassischen Gesunden und Empfindenten erfüllt war, der doch alles daran setzte, auch seine Schulmeisterpädagogig, irgendwie die Begriffe

Draft translation

4 Volume 56 [HW: 563] But I would like to say; "Ah, two souls dwell — alas, in my breast".... One must at all know, where he comes from. He comes from Bavaria, was a teacher, hence always the mania to be a pedagogue, had enormous ambition, could be unusually kind-hearted and helpful, but likewise also [DEL: xxxxxx] quite suddenly resolve upon decisions, which went against the sense of justice, uncommonly diligent, very great organizer, very poor judge of people, unfortunately easily susceptible to speaking-to-the-mouth [i.e. sycophancy/telling people what they want to hear]. There is a document, that is, a report from Pohl to the RF [Reichsführer] — and it was indeed a very honoring matter, when one got the watch of the RF — now Pohl writes on 29 Nov. 44 concerning "Distribution of watches to members of the Waffen-SS." To the Reichsführer — Amtsgruppe D [Office Group D] — Oranienburg....; 20,000 pocket-watches........ I have in the previous year made available the cited quota [Kontigenz, sic] of the Waffen-SS. The issuing of these gifts takes place in your name to the worthiest and most deserving members of this divi- sion.....(Then again unclear [in the source]......) request your confirmation. In total there is at the Arbeitsgruppe D [Work Group D] at present in repair....... Is that now German, or rather SS-like, to take the watch from an enemy of the Reich, to put it back in working order and then to hand over this watch to the meritorious one? To this I can say, the Old Testament, is a very clever and instructive book, there you will find a passage; Woe to a people, in which a servant is made into the leadership, or else a maidservant made into a queen..--- And unfortunately in our leadership there was a lack of H..................(?) a sergeant is not yet a commander, and on this fact this crystal-clear nationalistic outlook in the end degenerated, the struggle of the individual Reichsleiter, Reich Ministers, office chiefs one against the other and so they wasted their forces against one another instead of working together on the real nationalism, on the old idea of struggle, and to promote it, as ultimately once before 1933. And of course it is against the SS idea to give out used watches from the concentration camps again as an honorary gift----- simply impossible, thus I can only justify it.... How is that now possible, that the RF, who could be meticulous [pislich, sic; = peinlich] down to the details, who on the other hand was filled with the ethos of the warrior-peasant [Wehrbauer], with the ethos of the racially healthy and sentient [Empfindenten, sic], who indeed set everything to it, also his schoolmaster-pedagogy, somehow the concepts

Questioner

of purity and loyalty and so on. How can he reconcile that in his mind with saying to himself, “Well, we cannot throw these watches away; I will distribute them to my most proven officers”? How could he, as a mystic, commit such utter baseness? How is that to be understood? And in the same month he orders Becher to bring him a gold chain, which was then given to his girlfriend, who was having a child at the time. How can those things be reconciled?

Probably simply because inner greatness of soul was lacking there too—or a lack of feeling.

Anyone can assume that, under the influence of the war, he told himself that material like that simply could not be thrown away. But on the other hand I must say: it is simply boorish.

Questioner

Couldn’t that also be connected with the petty schoolmaster’s trait of never throwing anything away, using everything, wasting nothing? Couldn’t that be it?

Eichmann

Yes, of course. In any case it puts the RF (Reichsführer-SS) in a completely different light. In spite of such things, it is almost impossible to make people, at least outsiders, understand how great the RF was. It is very difficult.

Questioner

The letter is from Pohl to the RF (Reichsführer-SS)? Is it initialed?

Eichmann

Yes, only its wording is reproduced here.

Questioner

Yes, and now Glo…?

Eichmann

Glo… was Gauleiter in Vienna. He was removed because he went into shoe shops himself and checked the prices, and things of that sort. I only know him because I later saw him in the Reichstag. He was a Reichstag deputy too; otherwise I do not know him any further.

Questioner

Yes, but he claims that the RF (Reichsführer-SS) was in Auschwitz once or twice, and looked over the whole camp from … to the back, and then said, “Those are battles our children will no longer have to fight.” In 1943. Is it even possible that the RF looked at it from A to Z?

Eichmann

Yes, I consider that entirely possible, and the remark as well.

Questioner

So it is possible, after all, to assume that the RF (Reichsführer-SS) intervened very extensively and with initiative in the solution of the Jewish question. But what interests me is whether these were his own ideas or whether they could also have come from Heydrich.

Eichmann

Yes, I also believe that it could have been suggested to him. But was the business with the watches suggested to him? I assume of a leader

Open page image and German
Page 564 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 564 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Der Reinheit und Treue usw. reinzubekommen. Wie kann es nun mit dem in seinem Kopf zusammengereimt werden, daß er sich sagt, gut – die Uhren können wir nicht wegwerfen, die verteile ich an meine bewährtesten Offiziere – wie konnte er, als Mystiker, eine solche absolute Niedrigkeit begehen, – wie ist das zu verstehen – und in dem selben Monat, gibt er Becher den Auftrag ihm eine Goldkette mitzubringen – die wurde dann an seine Freundin geschenkt die da gerade ein Kind bekam – Wie ist das zusammen zubringen. Wohl einfach so, daß auch da innere Seelengröße gefehlt hat, oder Gefühllosigkeit – Es ist für jeden anzunehmen, daß er sich sagte, unter dem Einfluß des Krieges, daß man so ein Material einfach nicht wegwerfen kann. – Aber anderer seits muß ich sagen, es ist einfach proletenhaft. Ob das nicht auch verbunden ist mit der kleinschulmeisterlichen Eigenschaft – ja nichts wegzuwerfen, alles ausnutzen, nichts vergeuden, – könnte es nicht da sein? Ja, natürlich, Jedenfalls bringt es den RF in ein ganz anderes Licht und es ist fast unmöglich, wenigstens den Außenstehenden, trotz solcher Sachen ihnen klar zu machen, wie groß der RF war. Es ist sehr schwer. Der Brief ist von Pohl an den RF? Ist er abgezeichnet? Ja, er ist hier nur mit Wortlaut wiedergegeben. Ja, und nun Glo….? Glo…. war Gauleiter in Wien, er wurde abgesetzt, weil er selber in die Schuhläden ging und die Preise kontrollierte und so in dem Stil… Ich kenne ihn nur, weil ich ihn dann im Reichstag gesehen habe, er war auch Reichstagabgeordneter, sonst kenne ich ihn nicht weiter. – Ja, aber er behauptet, daß der RF 1 oder 2 Mal in Auschwitz gewesen ist? Und sich das ganze Lager von nach hinten angeguckt hat und dann gesagt hat, das sind Schlachten, die brauchen unsere Kinder nicht mehr zu schlagen – Im Jahre 1943 – Ist es überhaupt möglich, daß der RF sich das von A-Z angesehen hat? Ja, ich halte das absolut für möglich, auch der getane Ausspruch… Es ist so wohl doch möglich anzunehmen, daß der RF zu der Lösung der Judenfrage, doch weitgehendst mit Initiative eingegriffen hat, was mich aber interessiert, sind es nun seine eigenen Ideen oder könnten sie auch von Heydrich kommen? Ja, das glaube ich auch, daß das suggeriert sein könnte – aber ob die Uhrengeschichte ihm suggeriert wurde??? – Ich nehme von einem Führer an

Draft translation

To get into [ideals of] purity and loyalty etc. Now how can it be reconciled in his head that he says to himself, well—we cannot throw the watches away, I will distribute them to my most proven officers—how could he, as a mystic, commit such an absolute baseness,—how is that to be understood——and in the same month, he gives Becher the order to bring him a gold chain—which was then given as a gift to his girlfriend who had just then had a child——How is that to be brought together. Probably simply thus, that there too inner greatness of soul was lacking, or lack of feeling— It is to be assumed by anyone that he said to himself, under the influence of the war, that one simply cannot throw away such material.—But on the other hand I must say, it is simply proletarian. Whether that is not also connected with the petty-schoolmasterly quality—to throw nothing away at all, to make use of everything, to waste nothing,—could it not be that? Yes, of course. In any case it puts the RF in an entirely different light and it is almost impossible, at least to the outsiders, in spite of such things to make clear to them how great the RF was. It is very difficult. The letter is from Pohl to the RF? Is it initialled/signed off? Yes, it is here only reproduced with [its] wording. Yes, and now Glo....? Glo.... was Gauleiter in Vienna, he was removed, because he himself went into the shoe shops and checked the prices and so on in that style..... I know him only because I then saw him in the Reichstag, he was also a Reichstag deputy, otherwise I do not know him any further.— Yes, but he claims that the RF was 1 or 2 times in Auschwitz? And looked at the whole camp from the back and then said, those are battles/slaughters, which our children no longer need to fight/slay— In the year 1943—Is it even possible that the RF looked at that from A to Z? Yes, I hold that to be absolutely possible, also the utterance made.... It is thus probably possible after all to assume that the RF intervened, to a very great extent with initiative, in the solution of the Jewish question, but what interests me, are they now his own ideas or could they also come from Heydrich? Yes, I too believe that, that it could be suggested——but whether the watch-story was suggested to him??? — I assume of a leader

that he will not let anyone suggest such a thing to him, that he throws out anyone who comes with an idea like that.

Questioner

What, in your view, would have been a solution to the Jewish problem?

Eichmann

Well, in any case not the solution that was adopted. I am very sorry that I have to say this. It displeases me, and it does not accord with my inner conviction that one is entitled simply to remove masses of people from the world in this way, because one is convinced—because these masses are harmful.

Questioner

But what solution, then?

Eichmann

First of all, I would probably have done what was originally demanded before 1933: all the Jews who had immigrated from the East after 1918—under strict and firm supervision, their property too, which they had grabbed for themselves in the meantime, and the sources it came from—I would then have expelled them from Germany and taken away what they had acquired dishonestly. That would have been the first thing. Second, I would not have allowed the small percentage that Jews represented in relation to non-Jewish Germans to hold such a high position of power: in film, newspapers and banks, everywhere in the key positions. I would only have allowed it in proportion to their numbers.

Yes, Jewish emigration was encouraged, and only laughably small numbers resulted, partly because foreign states demanded very large advance payments; very difficult emigration rules for North America.

Questioner

The measures proposed above may apply to the time before the war, but in the course of the whole war the Jews from the other countries came in as well, and it is surely beyond question that the Jews were the driving force behind all the resistance—not military resistance, political resistance.

Now a completely open question: if the Germans have the right to annihilate a Jewish people because, in their view, the Jews are their enemies, then conversely the Jews also have the right to kill non-Jews. That is clear. So, in my view, if one considers the other an enemy, to fight him as well … That is a primitive solution.

Eichmann

That is my view too. But I also think that a Morgenthau Plan—the plan has not been carried out, but it was on the

Open page image and German
Page 565 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 565 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

daß er sich soetwas nicht suggerieren läßt, daß er so jemand mit einer solchen Idee rausschmeißt – Was wäre Deiner Ansicht nach eine Lösung gewesen für das Judenproblem? Tja… jedenfalls nicht die Lösung, die getroffen wurde, es tut mir sehr leid, daß ich das sagen muß, es mißfällt mir und entspricht auch nicht meiner innerer Überzeugung, daß man berechtigt ist, Massen in dieser Form einfach aus der Welt zu schaffen, weil man der Überzeugung ist, weil diese Massen schädlich sind. Aber welche Lösung dann? Ich hätte wohl zuerst einmal, so wie es auch ursprünglich vor 1933 gefordert wurde alle die Juden die nach 1918 aus dem Osten eingewandert waren unter strenger und starker Kontrolle, auch ihr Vermögen, daß sie sich unterdessen errafft hatten, aus welchen Quellen das stammte, hätte ich dann aus Deutschland rausgesetzt und ihnen das weggenommen, was sie unehrlich erworben haben, das wäre das Erste gewesen. 2. hätte ich nicht gestattet, daß ein geringer Prozentsatz den die Juden im Verhältnis zu den Deutschen Nicht Juden gab, daß dieser geringe Prozentsatz eine so hohe Machtposition inne hatte, nämlich in Film, Zeitung, Banken, also überall in den Schlüsselstellungen, sondern hätte nur gestattet, daß es in prozenter Zahl gewesen wäre. Ja. man hat ja die jüd. Auswanderung gefördert und da sind ja nur lächerl. Zahlen zusammen gekommen, teilweise weil die ausl. Staaten sehr hohe Vorgelder verlangten, sehr schwierige Emigrationsbestimmungen nach Nordamerika, Die oben vorgeschlagenen Maßnahmen mögen für die Zeit vor dem Krieg sein, aber im Zuge des ganzen Kriegsgeschehens kamen ja die Juden noch aus den anderen Ländern hinzu und es steht wohl außer Frage, daß die Juden die treibende Kraft waren für den ganzen Widerstand, nicht militärischer Art, politischer Widerstand. – Nun eine ganz offene Frage? Wenn die Deutschen das Recht haben, ein jüd. Volk zu vernichten, weil nach ihrer Ansicht, die Juden ihre Feinde sind, dann haben umgekehrt die Juden auch das Recht auch die Nicht Juden umzubringen. Da ist klar. Also nach meiner Ansicht, wenn einer den anderen als Feind betrachtet, ihn auch zu bekämpfen… Das ist eine primitive Lösung. Meine Ansicht ist es auch – ich aber habe auch die Meinung daß man einen Morgenthau Plan, der Plan ist nicht verwirklicht aber er war auf dem

Draft translation

Band 56 that he does not let himself be suggested such a thing, that he throws out somebody with such an idea— What would in your opinion have been a solution for the Jewish problem? Well.....in any case not the solution that was taken, I am very sorry that I have to say this, it displeases me and also does not correspond to my inner conviction, that one is entitled to simply remove masses from the world in this form, because one is of the conviction, because these masses are harmful. But which solution then? I would probably first, just as it was also [TS INS: originally] demanded before 1933, have then set out of Germany all the Jews who [DEL: [illegible]] had immigrated from the East after 1918, under strict and strong control, also their assets, that they had grabbed for themselves in the meantime, from what sources it originated, and taken away from them what they had acquired dishonestly, that would have been the first. 2. I would not have allowed that a small percentage which the Jews had in relation to the German non-Jews, that this small percentage held [TS INS: had] such a high power position, namely in film, newspaper, banks, so everywhere in the key positions, but would only have allowed that it were in percentage number. Yes. one did indeed promote the Jewish emigration and there only ridiculous figures came together, partly because the foreign states demanded very high advance monies, very difficult emigration provisions to North America, The measures proposed above may be for the time before the war, but in the course of the whole war events the Jews from the other countries came in addition and it is probably beyond question that the Jews were the driving force for the whole resistance, not of military kind, political resistance.— Now a completely open question? If the Germans have the right to annihilate a Jewish people, because in their opinion, the Jews are their enemies [DEL: xxx], then conversely the Jews also have the right also to kill the non-Jews. That is clear. So in my opinion, if one regards the other as an enemy, also to combat him.......That is a primitive solution. My opinion is it also—— but I also have the view that one a Morgenthau Plan, the plan is not realized but it was on the

well on the way to being carried out, so people said to themselves, “If we lose the war, the Jews will fall upon us. So let us begin to eliminate the Jews, somehow render the Jews in the Reich harmless.” And on top of that, the whole war. The Jews were offered around everywhere, like unwanted goods, and nobody would take them. In the very last months of the war Sweden and Switzerland did something. So what solution was there?

It goes against me personally to take defenseless people—even if it is my greatest enemy—defenseless people who have done nothing to me personally, only by their birth, and simply drive them into a gas oven. If someone has committed an assassination attempt or the like, I can understand someone firing into the middle of it in the first rush of feeling. The Americans in Dachau, too, finding nothing else, took my picture, hung it on a tree and shot at it. Those are all immediate reactions, understandable ones. If I am now asked for a solution …?

Questioner

Yes, but it can hardly be regarded as a solution to let the Jews simply be Jews, leave everything as it was, and only keep them under control. That would have required an expenditure of manpower which, numerically …

Eichmann

I once spoke with a Jew and his non-Jewish wife. His wife had said to me beforehand: yes, the Jews are wonderfully settled here in Argentina, because here they are sharp operators too (Vivos), and here the Jew does not stand out so much. But in the Nordic countries, where this business sense and worship of money came less naturally, they were of course outstripped by these intelligent, hardworking people, ambitious at school—outstripped in business.

In some cases the means did not matter: lending money to everyone, then later having the farms forcibly auctioned off in order to take possession of them, and the farms were then taken over by their own private bank. Farmers contemplated suicide, and some of the women farmers took their lives because they were driven from their old land in the postwar years 28/29. This hardness, this craving for money, does not come naturally to Nordic people.

That naturally gave rise to hatred, and then there is the way the Jew can be tremendously insolent when he appears in masses. Of course one can say a great deal to excuse the measures. But I personally find the method downright brutal: they were simply gassed like that. That is not chivalrous, even toward my enemy.

Open page image and German
Page 566 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 566 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

besten Weg verwirklicht zu werden, daß man sich gesagt hat, wenn wir den Krieg verlieren, dann werden die Juden über uns herfallen – also fangen wir einmal an die Juden zu beseitigen, die Juden die im Reich sind irgendwie unschädlich zu machen, dazu dann noch der ganze Krieg – man hat die Juden ja nun auch angepriesen wie saures Bier an allen Ecken und Enden, – keiner hat sie abgenommen – in den allerletzten Kriegsmonaten hat Schweden und die Schweiz etwas gemacht, – was war dann also für eine Lösung da? – Mir widerspricht es persönlich, wehrlose Menschen und selbst wenn es mein größter Feind ist, wehrlose Menschen, die mir persönlich gar nichts getan haben, nur eben durch ihre Geburt – nun einfach in einen Gasofen zu jagen wenn einer ein Attentat begangen hat odgl. dann habe ich Verständnis wenn einer im ersten Elan dazwischen schießt, – auch die Amerikaner in Dachau haben da sie nichts anderes fanden mein Bild genommen und haben es an einen Baum gehängt und beschossen – das sind alles so erste Reaktionshandlungen verständliche – wenn man mich nach einer Lösung nun fragt?… Ja, aber es ist doch wohl kaum als Lösung zu betrachten, wenn man die Juden, eben Juden sein läßt, und alles beim alten bleibt, sie nur unter Kontrolle hält, dafür hätte man aber einen Kräfteaufwand gebraucht, der zahlenmäßig… Ich habe mich einmal mit einem Juden unterhalten und mit seiner nicht-jüd. Frau. Und da hat seine Frau einmal vorher zu mir gesagt, Ja die Juden sind hier in Argentinien wunderbar untergebracht, denn hier die sind auch Vivos, und hier fällt der Jude gar nicht so auf. Aber den nordischen Ländern, denen dieser Geschäftssinn und die Anbetung des Geldes nicht so lag, die wurden ja natürlich von diesen intelligenten, fleißigen, auf den Schulen strebsamen, überflügelt, in den Geschäften überflügelt, zT. spielten die Mittel keine Rolle, jedem Geld zu borgen, dann später die Höfe zwangszuversteigern, um in den Besitz der Höfe zu kommen, die dann wieder von den eigenen PrivatBank übernommen wurden, das Bauern Selbstmordgedanken trugen und ZT die Bäuerinnen sich das Leben nahmen, weil sie von ihrer alten Scholle getrieben wurde in den Nachkriegsjahren 28/29, – eben diese Härte, diese Sucht nach Geld liegt dem nordischen Menschen nicht Daraus entstand natürlich der Haß und dann die Art, wenn der Jude in Massen auftritt ungeheuer pampig sein kann… man kann natürlich so vieles zur Entschuldigung der Maßnahmen sagen… aber ich persönlich finde die Art ausgesprochen brutal, indem sie so einfach vergast wurden. Das ist auch nicht ritterlich, selbst meinem Feind gegenüber.

Draft translation

7 Volume 56 [HW: 566] best way to be realized, that one said to oneself, if we lose the war, then the Jews will fall upon us--so let us begin once to eliminate the Jews, to somehow render the Jews who are in the Reich harmless, and in addition to this then the whole war---one did indeed also tout the Jews around like sour beer at every corner and end,--nobody took them off [our hands]---in the very last months of the war Sweden and Switzerland did something,--so what kind of solution was there then?----- It repels me personally, defenceless people and even if it is my greatest enemy, defenceless people who have done nothing at all to me personally, only just through their birth---now simply to drive [them] into a gas oven[.] if someone has committed an assassination attempt or the like, then I have understanding if someone in the first ardour shoots in between,---also the Americans in Dachau, since they found nothing else, took my picture and hung it on a tree and shot at it--these are all such first reaction-acts[,] understandable------- if one now asks me for a solution?.... Yes, but it can surely hardly be regarded as a solution, if one lets the Jews, just be Jews, and everything remains as of old, only holds them under control, but for that one would have needed an expenditure of forces, which numerically....... I once conversed with a Jew and with his non-Jewish wife. And there his wife once said to me beforehand, Yes the Jews are wonderfully accommodated here in Argentina, because here they too are Vivos, and here the Jew does not stand out so much at all. But the Nordic countries, to whom this business sense and the worship of money did not so lie [came less naturally], they were of course outstripped by these intelligent, industrious, in the schools ambitious [ones], outstripped in business, in part the means played no role, to lend money to everyone, then later to compulsorily auction off the farmsteads, [in order] to come into possession of the farmsteads, which then again by the own private [DEL: xxxxx]Bank were taken over, that [DEL: xxxx] farmers carried thoughts of suicide and in part the farmwomen took their lives, because she was driven from her old soil [homestead] in the post-war years 28/29, -- just this hardness, this addiction to money does not lie with the Nordic person[.] From this arose of course the hatred and then the manner, when the Jew appears in masses [he] can be tremendously insolent....... one can of course say so much in excuse of the measures....but I personally find the manner outright brutal, in that they were simply gassed like that. That is also not chivalrous, even toward my enemy.

Unknown speaker

It is always the same single thing we are reproached with: the extermination of X million Jews in this manner. So we do not want to discuss law; that has been thrown completely out of joint.

Questioner

What can one say about the time when Heydrich was shot dead and Kaltenbrunner took his place? Who was in the running then to take Heydrich’s position?

I am not informed about the personnel situation at that time. I was in Russia then and could not learn anything about it firsthand. But since I knew most of the gentlemen who played in that orchestra very well, I firmly believe that certain people proposed putting an incompetent man there, not another Heydrich, who was capable of anything—a political policeman. So that leaves only, after Heydrich, as the man whom Kaltenbrunner presents—that leaves only Wolff.

[This was spoken in a convoluted sentence and was unclear, Comrade Sassen!]

Wolff’s intention was to have a willing instrument. No competition, because under Heydrich he had—and that was the only real competition for him …

Unknown speaker

Perhaps this can also be connected with the fact that Wolff is a shadowy figure anyway …

I would be very interested to know why he was not brought into any Nuremberg trial. I keep coming to the same conclusion, and I hope this does not make me suspect as a reactionary: complete power demands inner modesty, crystal-clear integrity and, I would almost say, humility. When I look at the leadership as a whole, the Gauleiter, for example—Mr Ru…(?) —it is impossible to put such a man at the head of so large a Gau as, for example, the province of Saxony.

He may have been a good brassiere manufacturer, but not a Reichsstatthalter. For example, the conductor of the Dresden Philharmonic went to him and said, “Mr Reichsstatthalter, as always, I need such and such a subsidy from the state treasury for my orchestra.” The answer: “Why a subsidy? Pay for it out of your receipts.” Then Kemp said to him, “But Mr Reichsstatthalter, we are propaganda, a major representation of Germany; we play abroad …” The answer: “Stop that fairy tale. Whoever orders music should

Open page image and German
Page 567 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 567 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Es ist ja auch immer wieder das einzige was uns vorgeworfen wird, die Ausrotung von X Mill Juden in dieser Art… Also über Recht wollen wir nicht diskutieren, das ist vollkommen aus den Angeln gehoben Was kann man sagen, zu dem Zeitpunkt an dem Heydrich erschossen wurde und wo Kaltenbrunner an seine Stelle kam? Wer lag damals im Rennen um an die Stelle von Heydrich zu kommen? Ich bin über die Personallage zu dieser Zeit nicht im Bilde, da war ich in Rußland und habe also nichts persönlich zur Kenntnis nehmen können, aber da ich die meisten Herren sehr gut kannte die in diesem Orchester mitspielten, glaube ich absolut an, daß es von bestimmten Menschen offeriert worden ist, dort einen unfähigen Menschen hinzusetzen und gar nicht wieder so einen Heydrich, der ja zu allem fähig war, ein politischer Polizist. Also da bleibt nur nach Heydrich, als Mann, den Kaltenbrunner prasentiert, da bleibt also nur der Wolf übrig (Es war in einem Schachtelsatz gesprochen und unklar, Kamerad Sassen !) Wolfs Absicht war es dabei, ein williges Instrument zu haben. Keine Konkurrenz, denn unter Heydrich hat er, und das war die einzige wirkliche Konkurrenz für ihn – Vielleicht ist damit auch in Verbindung zu bringen, daß Wolf sowieso eine dunkle Gestalt ist – Es würde mich sehr interessieren, warum er in keinen Nürnberger Prozeß hereingebracht worden ist? Ich komme immer wieder zu dem selben Ergebnis und ich hoffe nicht, daß ich damit in einen reaktionären Verdacht komme, aber eine vollkommen Macht fordert eine innere Bescheidenheit, kristallklare Sauberkeit und ich möchte fast sagen, eine Demut und wenn ich mir nun mal so die Führerschicht schlechthin ansehe, sagen wir, die Gauleiter, Herrn Ru…(?) zB, es ist unmögl eine solchen Mann an die Spitze eines solchen großen Gaues zu stellen wie zB. die Provinz Sachsen – er mag ein guter Büstenhalterfabrikant gewesen sein, aber kein Reichsstatthalter – da ist zB. der Dirigent von den Dresdner Philharmoniker zu ihm gegangen und hat ihm gesagt; Herr Reichsstatthalter ich brauche wie immer, so undsoviel Zuschuß aus der Staatskasse, für mein Orchester, – Antwort; Wieso denn Zuschuß, bezahlen Sie das doch aus ihren Einnahmen – Daraufhin sagte ihm Kemp, Aber Herr Reichsst. wir sind doch eine Propaganda, eine große Repräsentation, für Deutschland, wir spielen im Ausland… Antwort: Hören Sie auf mit der Mär. wer Musik bestellt, soll sie

Draft translation

It is indeed always again the only thing that is reproached to us, the extermination of X million Jews in this manner.... So about law we do not want to discuss, that is completely lifted off its hinges What can one say, about the point in time at which Heydrich was shot and where Kaltenbrunner came in his place? Who was in the running at that time to come into the place of Heydrich? I am not in the picture about the personnel situation at this time, there I was in Russia and could thus take note of nothing personally, but since I knew most of the gentlemen very well who played along in this orchestra, I believe absolutely that it was offered by certain people, to put an incapable person there and not again such a Heydrich, who indeed was capable of everything, a political policeman. So [DEL: [illegible]] [HW: there remains] only after Heydrich, as the man whom Kaltenbrunner presents, there remains thus only the Wolf left over (It was spoken in a nested-box sentence and unclear, Comrade Sassen !) Wolf's intention thereby was, to have a willing instrument No competition, for under Heydrich he has, and that was the only real competition for him-- Perhaps it can also be brought into connection with this, that Wolf is anyway a dark figure--- It would interest me very much, why he was not brought into any Nuremberg trial? I come always again to the same result and I hope not that I come thereby into a reactionary suspicion, but a complete power demands an inner modesty, crystal-clear cleanliness and I would almost say, a humility and when I now just look at the leadership stratum as such, let us say, the Gauleiter, Mr. Ru......(?) for example, it is impossible to place such a man at the head of such a large Gau as e.g. the province Saxony-he may have been a good brassiere manufacturer, but no Reichsstatthalter----there for example the conductor of the Dresden Philharmonic went to him and said to him; Mr. Reichsstatthalter I need as always, so-and-so much subsidy from the state treasury, for my orchestra,---Answer; Why then subsidy, pay that indeed out of your revenues-- Thereupon Kemp said to him, ;But Mr. Reichsst. we are indeed a propaganda, a great representation, for Germany, we play abroad...... Answer: Stop with the [Masr.] whoever orders music, shall [it]

pay for it too.” And those were the Dresden Philharmonic. There are many more examples. The women alone, the way they flung themselves into cars like a sparrow into horse droppings. I have nothing against a good cook, but as a Reichsstatthalter’s wife I do reject her. Oddly enough, men adjust to an elevated position more quickly than women.

And so, in answer to everything you asked me about how this or that could have been possible, I can only tell you that the class was missing. Leading and bearing great responsibility must somehow be in the blood. You cannot simply say, “From tomorrow you are this or that.” He can be as hardworking, as capable, as brilliant as you like, but one day he will be thrown off course. This soldier-peasantry (Wehrbauerntum)—wonderful; Daree’s peasant law—wonderful. But afterward everything was exaggerated, everything suddenly began to lose its bearings. Suddenly, in some district in Russia, some commissar forbade kissing the dead. It is an old custom going back centuries. He forbade it because he considered it unhygienic. Another example:

Mr Frauenfeld and Mr Reich Training Leader Schmidt—the torchlight procession with soldiers, the front 100 kilometers farther east, simply because Training Leader Schmidt from Munich wanted to drive to the town hall that way with Mr Frauenfeld. I stepped in, threatening to report it to higher authorities unless the whole show was dispersed within ten minutes, and they meekly obeyed my order.

[Unintelligible on the recording: the story about goats, doing away with goats so that forest can grow, in the middle of the war? Where?]

Another example: Mr Koch arrived in a special train. Fourteen carriages; Rosenberg had eight of them, Mr Koch the rest. Rosenberg was Reich Commissioner (Reichskommissar) for the Occupied Eastern Territories, and Koch was responsible for Ukraine. They quarreled and insulted each other; neither went where the other was. Mr Koch, who, as is well known, used to punch tickets—I have nothing against that, but again the necessary class was missing. Nothing against ticket conductors, but do not make them Reich Commissioners.

An example: Mr von Kalian and the Reichsleiter. K. was a conductor in Aachen. The Reichsleiter calls him and says, “H. v. K., would you be so kind—your orchestra is looking for a trumpeter; do hire so-and-so. You would be doing me

Open page image and German
Page 568 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 568 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

auch bezahlen. – Und das waren die Dresdner Philharmoniker Und so gibt es noch viele Beispiele – allein schon die Frauen, wenn sie sich in die Auto warfen, wie ein Spatz in die Pferdeäpfel… Ich habe gar nichts gegen eine gute Köchin, aber als Frau Reichsstatthalter lehne ich sie dann doch ab… eigenartigerweise kommen die Männer in einer gehobenen Stellung schneller zurecht, als die Frauen… Und so kann ich Dir auf alles wie Du mich fragtest, wie dies oder das möglich gewesen sein kann, daß ich Dir nur antworten kann, daß eben die Klasse fehlte und das Führen und große Verantwortung tragen muß doch irgendwie im Blut liegen, man kann nicht einfach sagen, ab morgen bist Du das und das, da kann er noch so fleißig sein, noch so tüchtig, noch so genial, aber eines Tages wird er dann doch aus den Bahnen geworfen. Dieses Wehrbauerntum, wunderbar, das Bauerngesetz von Daree wunderbar, aber dann wurde nachher alles übertrieben, alles fing dann auf einmal an zu schwimmen – plötzlich wurde in irgendeinem Gebiet in Rußland von irgend so einem Kommissar verboten, die Leichen zu küssen, es ist seit Jahrhunderten ein alter Brauch, – er verbot es weil er es für unhygienisch hielt. weiteres Beispiel; Herr Frauenfeld und Herr Reichsschulungsleiter Schmidt – der Fackelaufzug mit von Soldaten, 100 Km. weiter nach Osten die Front, nur weil der Herr Schulungsleiter Schmidt aus München mit Herrn Frauenfeld so zur Stadthalle fahren wollte – ich funkte dann dazwischen, mit der Drohung eine Meldung an obere Stellen zu machen, wenn der Zauber nicht in 10 Minuten aufgelöst sei, und man kam klein und häßlich meinem Befehl nach, (Unverständlich die Geschichte mit den Ziegen, Abschaffung von Ziegen, damit Wald wachsen kann, mitten im Krieg?? Wo ??) Weiteres Beispiel; Herr Koch kam mit Sonderzug. 14 Waggons, 8 davon hatte Rosenberg, der Rest Herr Koch – Rosenberg war Reichskommissar für die besetzten Gebiete im Osten und Koch war für die Ukraine, sie zankten sich, sie beschimpften sich, keiner ging hin wo der andere war… Herr Koch der früher bekannterweise Fahrkarten geknipst hat – ich habe nichts dagegen, – aber es fehlte auch wieder die nötige Klasse – nichts gegen die Fahrkartenschaffner, aber macht sie nicht zu Reichskommissaren Beispiel; Herr von Kalian mit dem Reichsleiter; K. war in Aachen, Kapellmeister, der Reichsl. ruft ihn an und sagt; H.v.K. seien sie doch so freundlich, in ihrem Orchester wird doch ein Trompeter gesucht, stellen Sie doch den sowieso ein, sie tun mir damit

Draft translation

also pay.------- And those were the Dresden Philharmonic. And so there are still many examples---already just the women, when they threw themselves into the cars, like a sparrow into the horse-droppings.....I have nothing against a good cook, but as Frau Reichsstatthalter I do then reject her after all...... oddly enough the men in an elevated position cope more quickly than the women.... And so I can [answer] you on everything as you asked me, how this or that could have been possible, that I can only answer you that precisely the class was lacking, and leading and bearing great responsibility must after all somehow lie in the blood, one cannot simply say, from tomorrow you are this and that, there he can be ever so diligent, ever so capable, ever so brilliant, but one day he will then after all be thrown out of the tracks. This Wehrbauerntum [defense-peasantry], wonderful, the peasant-law of Daree [Darré] wonderful, but then afterwards everything was exaggerated, everything then all at once began to swim----suddenly in some region in Russia it was forbidden by some commissar to kiss the corpses, it is for centuries an old custom,---he forbade it because he held it to be unhygienic. Further example; Herr Frauenfeld and Herr Reichsschulungsleiter [Reich Training Leader] Schmidt- the torchlight procession [TS INS: with] [TS INS: further to the East] of soldiers, 100 km. [from] the front, only because the Herr Schulungsleiter [Training Leader] Schmidt [TS INS: from Munich] wanted to drive to the town hall thus with Herr Frauenfeld-- I then radioed/butted in between, with the threat to make a report to higher authorities, if the spectacle were not dissolved in 10 minutes, and one complied small and ugly with my order, (Unintelligible the story with the goats, abolition of goats, so that forest can grow, in the middle of the war?? Where ?? ) Further example; Herr Koch came with a special train. 14 wagons, 8 of them had Rosenberg, the rest Herr Koch--Rosenberg was Reichskommissar for the occupied territories in the East and Koch was for the Ukraine, they quarreled, they abused each other, neither went where the other was.... Herr Koch who earlier, as is known, punched tickets--I have nothing against it,---but again the necessary class was lacking---nothing against the ticket-conductors, but do not make them Reichskommissars Example; Herr von Kalian with the Reichsleiter; K. was in Aachen, Kapellmeister [conductor], the Reichsl. calls him and says; H.v.K. do be so kind, in your orchestra a trumpeter is being sought, do just hire so-and-so, you would thereby do me a

a personal favor.” All right, H. v. K. has him sent over for an audition. The trumpeter arrives and plays so that the flies fall off the wall; H. v. K. cannot use him. A short time later there is another telephone call from the Reichsleiter: “Please, H. v. K., hire this man.” H. v. K. replies: “I cannot hire this man. He cannot play.” The Reichsleiter then says: “But he is an old fighter.” H. v. K. again: “But he is not supposed to fight here at all—he is supposed to PLAY.”

I tell these stories because I see a common thread in them, I see where the fault lies. But if one wants to speak of guilt at all, perhaps it can be put this way: before 33, only those who wanted to out of inner conviction became National Socialists. After 33, they all pushed to the front. But then it was said again that these were loyal old fighters—see the playing and the fighting. Consequently they became this and that, Gauleiter and so on, and then they could fight, but could no longer play.

They could certainly sound the trumpet in the fight against communism …, Marxism—brave in the battles in meeting halls and on the streets; some let themselves be beaten into cripples, everything you like. But that does not make them remotely capable of taking up this or that position afterward. This runs right through the whole structure. Otherwise things would basically have looked different. If they had not, fundamentally, been small people, there would not have been this dueling (Duellismus) between the Reichsleiter and the Reich ministers, and so on. An example: Mr von Ribbentrop.

You might reasonably ask whether I had always held this conviction, even then, and if so, why I took part at all. But we were probably convinced that this water would eventually settle and become clear. Unfortunately it happened too quickly: into leadership in 33, war six years later. That probably says it all. But the hope that this would eventually die out, settle or change—that was what kept us old National Socialists committed to our outlook: bridging class-mindedness, bridging status-mindedness, and so on and so on. Apart from that, during the war there was no time to think about any of it.

Questioner

Now another question: do you think that the solution of the Jewish question, or rather the order for physical extermination as such, suited the RF (Reichsführer-SS), so to speak? Or that it was nevertheless inwardly repugnant to him?

Open page image and German
Page 569 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 569 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

einen persönlichen Gefallen. – Gut, H.v.K. läßt ihn sich schicken zum Vorblasen, – der Trompeter kommt, bläst, daß die Fliegen von der Wand fallen und H.v. K. kann ihn also nicht gebrauchen – Kurze Zeit danach wieder ein telefonischer Anruf des Reichsleiters, – bitte, H.v.K, stellen sie diesen Mann ein, – darauf H.v.K. diesen Mann kann ich nicht einstellen, der kann ja nicht blasen, – drauf hin sagt der Reichsleiter, aber er ist doch ein alter Kämpfer, daraufhin wieder H.v.K., aber er soll ja bei gar nicht kämpfen – blasen soll er. – Ich erzähle diese Geschichten, weil ich irgendwie da den roten Faden sehe, die Schuld sehe – aber wenn man von schuldig überhaupt sprechen will dann mag es vielleicht so gesagt sein; vor 33 wurde nur der Nationals. der es aus innerer Überzeugung werden wollte – nach 33 haben sie sich alle nach vorne gedrängt – dann aber wieder wurde gesagt das waren treue alte Kämpfer, siehe Bläser und Kämpfen – infolge dessen wurden sie das und das, Gauleiter etc… und dann konnten sie zwar kämpfen, aber nicht mehr blasen. – Sie konnten zwar blasen im Kampf gegen den Kommunismu… Marxismus, tapfer in den Saalschlachten, auf den Straßen – ließen sich teils zum Krüppel schlagen, alles was Du willt, aber daher sind sie noch lange nicht fähig nachher diese od jene Stellung einzunehmen und das geht durch die ganze Linie durch – sonst hätte es im Grunde genommen anders ausgesehen, wenn es nicht doch im Grunde genommen kleine Leute gewesen wären, dann hätte es auch nicht diesen Duellismus gegeben, zwischen den Reichsleitern und den Reichsministern usw… – Beispiel; Herr v. Ribbentrop. – Nun könnte es berechtigt sein, daß Du mir die Frage stellst, ob ich diese Überzeugung schon immer hatte, schon damals und wenn ja, warum ich dann überhaupt mit gemacht habe? Aber wir waren wohl der Überzeugung, daß sich einmal dieses Wasser setzt und klar wird – es ist bedauerlicherw. zu schnell gegangen, 33 an die Führung – 6 Jahre später Krieg, damit ist wohl alles gesagt – aber die Hoffnung daß das mal ausstirbt, sich absetzt od wandelt, das war das, was uns alte Nationals. in unsrer Anschauung, – Überbrückung des Klassengeistes, Überbrückung des Standesgeistes, etc.etc. doch an der Stange hielt, abgesehen davon war im Krieg gar keine Zeit an all das zu denken… Nun eine andere Frage, glaubst Du, daß die Lösung der Judenfrage, bzw. der physische Vernichtungsbefehl als solcher dem RF sozusagen gelegen hat? Oder daß es ihm innerlich doch zuwider gewesen ist?

Draft translation

[?Band 56?] [HW: 569] a personal favor.--Good, H.v.K. has him sent to blow [audition on trumpet],-- the trumpeter comes, blows, so that the flies fall off the wall, and H.v.K. thus cannot use him---- A short time later again a telephone call from the Reichsleiter,--please, H.v.K, take this man on, --to which H.v.K. this man I cannot take on, he can't blow at all,---upon which the Reichsleiter says, but he is an old fighter [alter Kämpfer], whereupon again H.v.K., but he isn't supposed to fight at all---- b l o w is what he's supposed to do.-- I tell these stories because I somehow see there the red thread, see the guilt---but if one wants to speak of guilty at all, then it may perhaps be put thus; before 33 only the National Soc. [became one] who wanted to become one out of inner conviction--after 33 they all pushed themselves to the front--but then again it was said those were[DEL: [?xx?]] loyal old fighters, see blowers and fighting ---as a consequence they became this and that, Gauleiter etc......and then they could indeed fight, but no longer blow.--- They could indeed blow in the fight against Communism, Marxism, brave in the hall-battles, on the streets- let themselves in part be beaten to a cripple, everything you like, but from that they are still not by a long way capable afterwards of taking up this or that position and that runs through the whole line---otherwise it would basically have looked different, if in the end they had not been small people [little people] after all, then there would also not have been this dualism, between the Reichsleiters and the Reichsministers etc..-Example; Herr v. Ribbentrop.-- Now it could be justified that you put the question to me whether I always had this conviction, already then, and if yes, why I then took part at all? But we were probably of the conviction that this water would one time settle and become clear--it went unfortunately too fast, 33 into the leadership--6 years later war, with that probably everything is said----but the hope that that would one day die out, settle itself off or change, that was what held us old National Soc. in our view, -bridging of the class-spirit, bridging of the estate-spirit [caste-spirit], etc.etc. still to the pole [i.e. kept us on course], apart from that in the war there was no time at all to think of all that.... Now another question, do you believe that the solution of the Jewish question, or rather the physical extermination order as such, so to speak suited the RF [Reichsführer]? Or that it was nevertheless inwardly repugnant to him?

Questioner

Yes, it is strange that something like this was kept so secret. Did you know anything about it—about this gassing and extermination?

No. But, on the other hand, if one reads the literature, it was not so secret at all. The Jews knew about it, for example. The Jews said things to prominent German officials—spoke about the extermination mills in Auschwitz. At times, when something in Auschwitz was running at full speed, one could immediately detect a distinctive stench five to six kilometers away, and it was constantly reported in the foreign press. Only it had also been reported beforehand, before there was any talk of it at all, so it is logical that people did not attach much importance to it.

I know, for example, that the operational detachments (Einsatzkommandos) in the East, partly staffed by the Waffen-SS, in some cases carried out mass executions. But what I still know from back then, from Kiev and Lemberg, is that Hschf. (Hauptscharführer) Soffner told such atrocity stories in the mess in Lemberg that I thought to myself, “Well, he really is boasting.” At Kiev, I believe, three or four thousand were reported. But back then all of that somehow came under combating partisans and so on. At that time I absolutely did not know that children were also being killed there, and so on. But it must be assumed that the majority knew nothing of these things.

But the thing is, these operational detachments (Einsatzkommandos)—Ohlendorf, for example, was subordinate to Heydrich. I consider it entirely possible, because I know that the RF (Reichsführer-SS) could be very warm-hearted and helpful, that Heydrich was the main driving force. I consider it possible; I cannot prove it.

[Rest unintelligible on the recording.]

Something else I do not understand on the RF’s (Reichsführer-SS’s) part is that he put these concentration camp guards into SS uniforms, for example. How can one blur an order like the SS? He simply put the men into uniforms, and they then belonged to the Death’s Head regiment (Totenkopfstandarte) or otherwise to the SS. The same with the officials in the State Police (Stapo) and Criminal Police (Kripo). They were police officials: today they were nothing, tomorrow they had a rank, perhaps Ostf. (Obersturmführer), because they were senior government councillors (Oberregierungsräte). But all of that lies in ambition, in the sphere of power. Take the SS court, SS jurisdiction, to kick them particularly hard in the H… …. But properly speaking, these people do not belong to the SS at all.

But that was Heydrich: his order was the men who served the Reich.

Open page image and German
Page 570 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 570 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Ja, das ist eigenartig, daß so etwas so geheim gehalten worden ist. – Hast Du etwas davon gewußt? Von dieser Vergasung und Vernichtung. Nein – aber wenn man andererseits wieder die Literatur liest, war es doch gar nicht so geheim, denn zB. die Juden haben das gewußt – die Juden haben zB zu bedeutenden deutschen Beamten gesagt – gesprochen über die Vernichtungsmühlen in Auschwitz – Teilweise konnte man wenn etwas in Auschwitz auf Hochtouren lief, auf 5 bis 6 km konnte man sofort einen identifizierenden Gestank feststellen und in der Auslandspresse wurde es dauernd bekannt gegeben, nur wurde das auch schon vorher bekannt gegeben, bevor davon überhaupt die Rede war, deshalb ist es logisch daß man sich da nicht soviel daran gelegen ließ. Ich weiß zB. daß die Einsatzkommandos im Osten, die teilweise von Waffen SS besetzt wurden daß die zT. Massenexekutionen durchgeführt haben. Aber was ich zB von damals noch weiß, von Kiew und von Lemberg, daß der Hschf. Soffner im Kasino von Lemberg also solche Greuelgeschichten erzählte, wo ich noch bei mir dachte, na, der gibt ja mächtig an – und bei Kiew wurden glaube ich drei od vier tausend angegeben, aber das lief damals irgendwie alles unter Partisanenbekämpfung usw. – aber damals war mir absolut auch nicht bekannt, daß da auch Kinder umgelegt wurden usw… aber es ist doch anzunehmen, daß der Größtteil von diesen Sachen nichts wußte. Aber die Sache ist doch, so, diese Einsatzkommandos, Ohlendorf zB, unterstand doch dem Heydrich und ich halte es für absolut möglich, denn ich weiß daß der RF sehr warmherzig sein konnte, sehr hilfsbereit, daß der Haupttreibende Heydrich war, ich halte es für möglich, ich kann es nicht beweisen… (Rest unverständlich) Noch etwas, was ich von seiten des RF nicht verstehe, daß er zB diese KZ Wächter in SS Uniformen steckte, wie kann man einen Orden wie die SS zu verwischen – er steckte die Leute dann so einfach in die Uniformen und sie gehörten dann der Totenkopfstandarte an oder sonst der SS. Genause die Beamte bei der Stapo und Kripo, es waren Polizeibeamte, heute waren sie nichts, morgen hatten sie einen Rang, vielleicht Ostf. weil sie Oberregierungsräte waren… Aber das alles liegt in dem Ehrgeiz indem Machtbreich, nehmen wir das SS Gericht, die SS Gerichtsbarkeit, um sie ganz besonders in den H… zu treten – aber ordnungsgemäß gehören diese Leute gar nichts zu der SS – Aber so war Heydrich, sein Orden waren die Männer die im Dienst des Reiche standen.

Draft translation

Yes, that is strange, that something like this was kept so secret.-- Did you know anything about it? About this gassing and extermination. No--but if on the other hand one reads the literature again, it was really not so secret at all, for e.g. the Jews knew this- the Jews for e.g. said to prominent German officials--spoke about the extermination-mills in Auschwitz--Partly one could, when something was running at full speed in Auschwitz, at 5 to 6 km one could immediately detect an identifying stench, and in the foreign press it was constantly made known, only it was also already made known beforehand, before there was even any talk of it, therefore it is logical that one did not attach so much importance to it. I know e.g. that the Einsatzkommandos in the East, which were partly manned by Waffen SS, that they in part carried out mass executions. But what I e.g. still know from back then, from Kiev and from Lemberg, that the Hschf. [Hauptscharführer] Soffner in the casino of Lemberg told such atrocity-stories, where I still thought to myself, well, he really is boasting mightily---and at Kiev I believe three or four thousand were given, but back then all that somehow ran under partisan-combat etc.--but back then it was absolutely not known to me either, that children were also being killed there etc.......but it is indeed to be assumed that the greatest part of these people knew nothing. But the thing is, so, these Einsatzkommandos, [DEL: [?Heydrich?]] Ohlendorf for e.g., was after all subordinate to Heydrich, and I hold it for absolutely possible, for I know that the RF [Reichsführer] could be very warm-hearted, very helpful, that the main driving force was Heydrich, I hold it for possible, I cannot prove it...... (Rest unintelligible) Something else, which I do not understand on the part of the RF, that he e.g. put these KZ [concentration camp] guards into SS uniforms, how can one blur an order [decoration/honor] like the SS --- he then simply put the people into the uniforms and they then belonged to the Totenkopfstandarte or otherwise to the SS. Just as the officials at the Stapo and Kripo, they were police officials, today they were nothing, tomorrow they had a rank, perhaps Ostf. [Obersturmführer] because they were Ober- regierungsräte... But all that lies in the ambition, in the power- sphere, take the SS court, the SS jurisdiction, in order to tread them quite especially in the h...... ----but properly these people do not belong to the SS at all-- But that was Heydrich, his order [decoration/honor] were the men who stood in the service of the Reich.

He was an idealist. On the military side, that was the SS; on the idealistic side there was also the General SS, and then came the general … services. Those services were performed by people who were also from the SS, and in that way he gave everyone the possibility of withdrawing. There were also people who served the Reich very well who were hunchbacked, cross-eyed and 1.54 tall, and they were not admitted to the SS.

Questioner

Do you now think that this extermination order suited the RF (Reichsführer-SS)? Or do you think he did not agonize over it?

[Interruption.]

Eichmann

Yes, but one should not tear something down before having something better. And if one wants to replace a religion with a pot-bellied local Party group leader …

[unintelligible on the recording]

that is what the chickens do in the yard.

Questioner

What would have interested me in this whole story is to know from a personal perspective, to have Heydrich’s character outlined in such a way that the operation against enemies of the Reich, probably first and foremost the Jews, was dealt with in this manner—cunningly, with force used in part. But that seems very difficult to me. On the other hand, I do not believe Heydrich undertook anything without, by and large, being covered by the RF (Reichsführer-SS).

Eichmann

No, that is clear. He was too clever for that, and he could not push ahead on his own either. It must have been coordinated somewhere.

Questioner

Guided by the right hand, Heydrich was a very suitable and capable police chief. Is nothing known about any conflicts he had with Canaris?

Eichmann

Yes, the gods may know whether they had been together before, or whether he had even been managed by Canaris earlier and then brushed off when he became inconvenient, just as he in turn wanted to brush Canaris off because he knew too much. All that was interesting, but unresolved.

Questioner

Are there no indications?

Eichmann

This subject we are discussing is so broad that, to exhaust it, one would need many people who were in the picture. It was divided up very cunningly: what one did not know, the other knew.

Open page image and German
Page 571 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 571 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Er war ein Idealist – von der militärischen Seite das war die SS, die idealistische Seite war weiter die allgemeine SS und dann kamen die allgemeinen … Dienste. Diese Dienste wurden gemacht von Leuten, waren auch von der SS, – und damit gab er einem jedem die Möglichkeit des Rückzuges… Auch im Dienst des Reiches haben Leute sehr gut gestanden, die einen Buckel hatten und schielten und 1,54 groß waren – und die wurden nicht in die SS aufgenommen. Glaubst Du nun daß dieser Vernichtungsbefehl dem RF gelegen kam? oder meinst Du er hat sich kein Kopfzerbrechen darum gemacht. (Unterbrechung) Ja, aber man soll nicht etwas abreißen bevor man etwas besseres hat – Und wenn man nun eine Religion ersetzen will, durch einen dickbäuchigen Ortsgruppenleiter…(unverständlich) … das machen die Hühner auf dem Hof. – Was mich an der ganzen Geschichte interessiert hätte, zu wissen aus der persönlichen Schau raus, die Gestalt von Heydrich so umrissen zu bekommen, daß also die Aktion in Bezug auf Reichsfeinde, wohl an erster Stelle die Juden eben auf diese Art gelöst wurde, raffiniert, zT. Gewalt angewandt wurde – aber das scheint mir doch wohl sehr schwierig zu sein – andererseits glaube ich nicht, daß Heydrich etwas unternommen hat, um nicht im großen und ganzen gedeckt zu sein vom RF. Nein, das ist klar, dafür war er zu klug und vordrängen konnte er ja auch nicht, irgendwo abgestimmt sein mußte daß schon… Heydrich war, geführt von der richtigen Hand, ein sehr geeigneter und tüchtiger Polizeichef Nichts ist bekannt über irgendwelche Gegensätze, die er mit Canaris hatte? Ja, das mögen die Götter wissen, ob die früher zusammen waren, oder ob er früher sogar von Canaris gemanaged worden ist und dann abgewimmelt wurde, als er unbequem wurde, wie er seinerseits den Canaris abwimmeln wollte, weil er zuviel gewußt – das alles wurde interessant aber ungeklärt Indizien liegen nicht vor? Dieses Thema das wir hier besprechen, ist so breit – um das zu erschöpfen müßte man viele Menschen die im Bilde waren haben, denn sehr raffiniert war das ja aufgeteilt, was der eine nicht wußte, wußte der andere.

Draft translation

He was an idealist- from the military side that was the SS, xxx the idealistic side was further the general SS and then came the general ........ services. These services were performed by people, were also of the SS, --and thereby he gave everyone the possibil- ity of retreat..... Also in the service of the Reich people have stood very well, who had a hunchback and squinted and were 1.54 tall---and those were not taken into the SS. Do you now believe that this extermination order came at a convenient time for the RF? or do you think he did not rack his brains about it. (Interruption) Yes, but one should not tear something down before one has something better-- And if one now wants to replace a religion, with a fat-bellied local group leader...(unintelligible) ....... that is what the chickens do in the yard.-- What would have interested me in the whole story, to know from the personal view out, to get the figure of Heydrich outlined in such a way, that thus the action in regard to enemies of the Reich, indeed at first place the Jews were solved just in this way, cunning, in part force was applied--but that seems to me indeed very difficult to be--on the other hand I do not believe that Heydrich undertook anything, so as not by and large to be covered by the RF. No, that is clear, for that he was too clever and push himself forward he could also not, somewhere it had to be coordinated already... Heydrich was, led by the right hand, a very suitable and capable police chief Nothing is known about any antagonisms that he had with Canaris? Yes, that the gods may know, whether they were together earlier, or [TS INS: he] whether earlier he was even managed by Canaris and then brushed off when he became inconvenient, as he for his part wanted to brush off Canaris, because he had known too much--all that became interesting but un- resolved No indications are present? This theme that we are discussing here, is so broad--to exhaust it one would have to have many people who were in the picture, for very cunningly it was xt indeed divided up, what the one did not know, the other knew.

And playing one off against another was also a major factor. It was, after all, a bit of very strong …-economy. There is nothing to be done about that…

Questioner

In general, with those particular appointments of Higher SS and Police Leaders in the various countries, Heydrich had no say?

Eichmann

Hardly. Well, he could raise an objection, he could produce material against the appointment, he could attack it. If the man had been very disagreeable to him, he would probably have done so… But in general, as SS and Higher Police Leader, he was the highest-ranking man. He did not go to the commander of the Security Police; he went to him personally. But basically everyone—the commander of the Security Police too, the commander of the Order Police, the State Police and the Security Service—had their own official channels.

The Higher SS and Police Leader could certainly put in a word or make a proposal, but he had no command authority of any kind. He also took no part in the proceedings, because they came directly from Heydrich to the commander of the Security Police; they did not pass through his office. It is like this: people believed the Higher SS and Police Leader had been a little Reichsführer in his own office—not a bit of it. Only the General SS went through the chief of staff of the two senior SS district leaders (Oberabschnittsführer)…

[unintelligible on the recording]

But none of the others.

Questioner

And who proposed the appointment of a Higher SS and Police Leader?

Eichmann

The RF (Reichsführer-SS) did that. He took care to choose men who were skilled in dealing with the respective Reich governors and Gauleiters, who would not cause him difficulties by stirring up trouble in the individual territories, but who were also presentable, diligent and so on… But basically they were not professional policemen. Without exception they also belonged to the General SS…

Questioner

Was that also the case later in the occupied territories?

Eichmann

Yes, it was the case there too, of course.

Questioner

And they became Waffen-SS generals after the 20th of July, because after that date the army’s prisoner camps and, in part, other functions that united the army and the Wehrmacht—to the Higher SS and Police Leader, that is, for example, a Grpf. (Gruppenführer) and lieutenant general of the Waffen-SS and Police. And now they became Waffen-SS lieutenant generals in order to hold a rank conferred by the Führer, so that they could carry out certain defined military tasks.

Eichmann

I, for example, am a lieutenant general of the Waffen-SS, but from a purely military point of view my highest rank was captain, perhaps major—that is, in Wehrmacht terms.

Open page image and German
Page 572 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 572 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Und auch das gegenseitige Ausspielen war ja auch ein großer Faktor es war halt doch ein bißchen sehr starke … wirtschaft. Da ist nichts zu ändern… Im allgemeinen die bestimmten Berufungen zu SS u Höh Pol Führern in den verschied Ländern, da hatte Heydrich nichts zu melden? Wohl kaum, nun er konnte Einspruch erheben, er konnte Gegenmateriel bringen, er konnte dagegen schießen – wenn der Mann ihm sehr unangenehm gewesen wäre, dann hätte er es wohl getan… Aber im allgemeinen war er als SS und Höh Pol. Führer der Ranghöchste, er ging nicht zum Kommandeur der SIPO, er ging zu ihm persönlich – aber im Grunde genommen hatte jeder, auch der Kommandeur der SIPO, der Kommandeur der Ordnungspolizei, der Stapo und SD, ihren eigenen Dienstweg – aber der SS Höh.Pol. konnte wohl man ein Wort einlegen, einen Vorschlag machen, aber irgendwelche Befehlsgewalt hatte er nicht – er nahm ja auch nicht an den Vorgängen teil, denn kamen ja direkt vom Heydrich an den Befehlshaber der SIPO, die gingen ja nicht durch sein Dienstzimmer – Es ist nun so, wie man glaubte, daß der Höh SS u Pol F. ein kleiner Reichsführer gewesen sei in seiner Dienststelle, keine Spur, nur die allgemeine SS ging durch den Stabsführer der beiden Oberabschnittsführer, … (unverständlich. aber alle anderen nicht Und wer machte den Vorschlag zur Ernennung eines SS Höh Pol F.? Das machte der RF – wobei er Rücksicht darauf nahm, in dem er Männer nahm die geschickt waren im Umgang mit den jeweiligen Reichsstatthaltern und Gauleitern, die keine Schwierigkeiten ihm bereiteten, indem sie Stunk machten in den einzelnen Gebieten, die aber auch repräsentativ waren, die fleißig waren usw… aber im Grunde genommen waren es keine Fachpolizisten die waren ja ausnahmslos auch allgemeine SS… Auch nachher bei den besetzten Gebieten war das der Fall? Ja, da war das auch der Fall, natürlich Und die wurden Waffen SS Generäle nach dem 20. Juli, weil nach dem Datum die Gefangenenlager des Heeres und zT auch andere Funktionen die das Heer und die Wehrmacht einten, dem Höh. SS und Pol F. – sprich – zB Grpf. und Generallt. der Waffen SS und Polizei, und nun wurden sie Waffen SS Generallt. um nun einen vom Führer ernannten Dienstgrad zu besitzen um militärische bestimmte umrissenen Aufgaben erfüllen zu können. Ich zB. bin Generallt. der Waffen SS, aber rein militärisch gesehen war mein höchster Dienstgrad Hauptmann, vielleicht Major, also wehrmachtsmäßig.

Draft translation

And also the mutual playing-off against each other was indeed also a great factor [HW: 572] it was after all a bit of very strong .........economy. There is nothing to change about that..... In general the particular appointments to SS and Higher Pol[ice] Leaders in the various countries, there Heydrich had nothing to say [in the matter]? Hardly, well he could raise an objection, he could bring counter-material, he could shoot against it----if the man had been very disagreeable to him, then he would probably have done it.... But in general he was, as SS and Higher Pol[ice] Leader, the highest in rank, he did not go to the Commander of the SIPO, he went to him person[al]ly--but fundamentally everyone had, including the Commander of the SIPO, the Commander of the Order Police, the Stapo and SD, their own official channel--but the SS Higher Pol[ice] could indeed put in a word, make a proposal, but any sort of command authority he did not have-- he also did not take part in the proceedings, for [they] came indeed dir[e]ctly from Heydrich to the Commander of the SIPO, these did not go through his office--It is now so, as one believed, that the Higher SS and Pol[ice] L[eader] had been a little Reichsführer in his official post, no trace [of it], only the general SS went through the Chief of Staff of the [b]oth Oberabschnitt leaders,.....(unintelligible. but all the others not And who made the proposal for the appointment of an SS Higher Pol[ice] L[eader]? That the RF did---whereby he took into consideration [this], in that he took men who were skilled in dealing with the respective Reichsstatthalter[s] and Gauleiters, who caused him no difficulties, in that they made a stink in the individual regions, but who were also presentable, who were diligent etc.....but fundamentally they were not professional policemen they were indeed without exception also general SS... Later also in the occupied territories was that the case? Yes, there that was also the case, naturally And they became Waffen SS generals after the 20th of July, because after that date the prisoner camps of the Army and in part also other functions which the Army and the Wehrmacht [unified/held], [went to] the Higher SS and Pol[ice] L[eader] -that is- e.g. Grpf. and Lieutenant General of the Waffen SS and Police, and now they became Waffen SS Lieutenant General[s] in order now to possess a rank appointed by the Führer in order to be able to fulfill [certain] outlined military tasks. I e.g. am Lieutenant General of the Waffen SS, but seen purely militarily my highest rank was Captain, perhaps Major, that is, in Wehrmacht terms.

A man like Hauser, for example, was a real lieutenant general, or Steiner—whichever you care to name. Militarily speaking, they were genuine military officers who rose through the ranks.

Questioner

Did you know Jungklaus?

Eichmann

Yes, what about him?

Questioner

He was shot for cowardice in the face of the enemy—first demoted, then shot. He was Higher SS and Police Leader in Belgium.

And Rauter.

Eichmann

What about him?

Questioner

He was shot by the Dutch.

Open page image and German
Page 573 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 573 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Ein Mann wie Hauser zB. der war ein wirklicher Generallt, oder Steiner, wie Du sie nennen willst, militärisch gesehen, waren das wirkliche Soldatenoffiziere, die eben rangmäßig anstiegen. Hast Du den Jungklaus gekannt? Ja, was ist mit dem? Der ist wegen Feigheit vorm Feind erschossen worden, erst degradiert und erschossen, er war Höh.SS und Pol F. in Belgien Und Rauter Was ist mit dem? Der ist von den Holländer erschossen worden

Draft translation

14 Volume 56 [HW: 573] A man like Hauser for example, he was a real lieutenant general, or Steiner, whichever way you want to call them, seen militarily, those were real soldier-officers, who simply rose by rank. Did you know Jungklaus? Yes, what about him? He was shot for cowardice before the enemy, first demoted and shot, he was Higher SS and Police Leader in Belgium And Rauter What about him? He was shot by the Dutch

Questioner

Did you never notice that Müller had woodworking as a hobby?

No.

[unintelligible on the recording]

I did not build the air-raid cellar; I only made the design. Originally he wanted just a small foxhole. I made a small … air-raid bunker where there would be room for him, his wife and their two children. Naturally, the four people had to stand packed closely together. I … reinforced it accordingly, siphoned off some cement for myself, and then had the men do it. It had only just hardened properly when there was another terrible air raid on Berlin. His house took a direct hit and was half blown to pieces, but the Muelle family was in the air-raid bunker and came through the raid splendidly.

Questioner

And you were often at his house?

Eichmann

Yes, for a while even every Thursday, with a few of my comrades. We also played chess. I regularly lost the games; I believe I never won a single one. He had the following tactic: it gave him diabolical pleasure to let me come on at the start until I became certain of victory. It was always the same. I kept charging headlong into the whole business, became certain of victory, and suddenly he had me—I was checkmated. Now I must say that when I was younger I was a chess player who enjoyed playing very much and played a great deal.

But from about the age of twenty-four or twenty-five I would play perhaps one game a year, perhaps none, or suddenly thirty games at once. I am that sort of occasional chess player. But I cannot tell you whether Müller was a keen chess player; I do not know that either. He was a clever chess player, though, and that means that such a man has the capacity to concentrate and plan, and also adopts a particular tactic. As a rule, a chess player shows in his play what he is like in life…

[unintelligible on the recording] [Typed topic cue: Some question concerning Poland-Frank (?)]

Yes, in my case it came very early, with the affair…

Questioner

So that was already at the end of 1939.

Eichmann

Stallecker was already commander of the Security Police and the Security Service in the Protectorate—March 1939. We had several months of work in Prague and in Bohemia and Moravia. Poland declared war on us in 1939—the war was over at the end of September.

Open page image and German
Page 574 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 574 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Ihnen ist nie aufgefallen, daß Müller ein Holzverarbeitendes Hobby hatte? Nein – (Unverständlich) Luftschutzkeller habe ich nicht gemacht, ich habe nur den Entwurf gemacht, er wollte ursprünglich nur so ein kleines Schützenloch, – Ich habe einen kl… Luftschutzbunker gemacht, wo er mit seiner Frau und seinen 2 Kinder Platz haben konnte. Natürlich mußten hier eng an eng die vier Personen stehen, ha… ihn entsprechend armiert(?), habe mir den Zement abgezwackt, und habe es dann die Leute machen lassen. Er war gerade gut gehärtet gewesen, da war wieder ein fürchterlicher Luftangriff auf Berlin gewesen, ein Volltreffer traf sein Haus, dieses ist halb verpulvert worden, aber die Familie Müller war im Luftschutzbunker und hat diesen Angriff so glänzend überstanden. Und in seinem Haus waren Sie öfters? Ja, einige Zeit sogar jeden Donnerstag mit ein paar meiner Kameraden. Wir spielten dann auch Schach, die Partien verlor ich regelmäßig, habe glaube ich, keine einzige je gewonnen. Und zwar hatte er folgende Taktik, es bereitete ihm ein diabolisches Vergnügen, mich am Anfang so ran gehen zu lassen, daß ich zum Schluß siegessicher wurde, es war immer dasselbe, ich habe mich immer wieder hineingaloppiert in die ganze Angelegenheit, ich wurde siegessicher und auf einmal hat er mich gehabt, ich war matt gese[unleserlich]t Nun muß ich sagen, ich bin ein Schachspieler, der früher einmal als ich noch jünger war, sehr gern und sehr viel gespielt habe, aber dann so ab 24, 25 J. spielte ich im Jahr vielleicht eine Partei, vielleicht auch keine, oder auf einmal gleich 30 Partien – ich bin so ein Gelegenheitsschachspieler Ich kann Ihnen aber nicht sagen, ob Müller nun ein eifriger Schachspieler war, das weiß ich auch nicht. Aber er war ein kluger Schachspieler, und daß heißt ja nun, daß ein solcher Mann über ein Konzentrations und Planungsvermögen und sich auch eine bestimmte Taktik zu eigen macht. Und ein Schachspieler gibt im Spiel, in der Regel das wieder, im Leben, wie er ist… (Unverständlich, das Band) Irgendeine Frage bzgl. Polen-Frank (?) Ja, bei mir ist es schon sehr früh gekommen, und zwar bei der Affäre… Also ist das Ende 39 schon gewesen. Stallecker war Bef. d. Sipo und SD im Prot. bereits – März 39 – da hatten wir etliche Monate in Prag zu tun und in Böhmen und Mähren – Polen hat uns den Krieg erklärt 39 – der Krieg war aus Ende September

Draft translation

Band 57 [HW: 574] It never struck you that Mueller had a wood-working hobby? No-- (Unintelligible) The air-raid cellar I did not make, I only made the design, originally he only wanted such a small foxhole,-- I made a sma[illegible] air-raid bunker, where he with his wife and his 2 children could have room. Of course the four persons had to stand here tight against each other, ha[illegible] armored(?) it accordingly, chiseled off some cement for myself, and then let the people do it. It had just hardened well, when there was again a terrible air raid on Berlin, a direct hit struck his house, this was half blown to bits, but the Muelle family was in the air-raid bunker and survived this raid so splendidly. And you were in his house more often? Yes, for some time even every Thursday with a few of my comrades. We then also played chess, the games I lost regularly, I have I believe, never won a single one. And indeed he had the following tactic, it gave him a diabolical pleasure to let me go at it so at the beginning that at the end I became sure of victory, it was always the same, I galloped myself again and again into the whole affair, I became sure of victory and all at once he had me, I was checkmate[illegible] Now I must say, I am a chess player who earlier, when I was still younger, played very gladly and very much, but then from about 24, 25 yrs. I played perhaps one game a year, perhaps also none, or all at once 30 games at once --- I am such an occasional chess playe[r] But I cannot tell you whether Mueller was now an avid chess player, that I also do not know. But he was a clever chess player, and that now means that such a man has a capacity for concentration and planning and also makes a certain tactic his own. And a chess player in the ga[HW: 1]me renders, as a rule, again, i[HW: 2]n life, the way [HW: 1]he is..... (Unintelligible, the tape) Some question regarding Poland-Fran[k] (?) Yes, with me it came already very early, and indeed with the affair......[HW: ??? ?] So that was already at the end of '39. Stallecker was Cmdr. of the Sipo and SD in the Prot. already---March '39----- there we had several months of work in Prague and in Bohemia and Moravia-- Poland declared war on us '39---the war was over at the end of September

In October I made that trip with Stahlecker, to choose the pla… for ourselves. I drove with Stahlecker in his car through the Russian corridor, and there we also spoke with a … commissar. I can still see the man before me: a very tall, broad-shouldered fellow wearing a leather jacket as his uniform—a brown leather jacket. He stood there and, in a manner of speaking, ran the checkpoint at the entrance to the corridor. The corridor was several kilometres long, probably twenty, and the population stared at us along the way… In a small village we had a breakdown; something was wrong, and hundreds of these small-town people gathered around us. So it was about that time…

Then came the assembling of the transports: from Theresienstadt the m…rial…, the craftsmen from the Moravian-Ostrau region, because I said to myself, in this industrial region I have the best craftsmen. Then they were sent to … It was already winter, with snow… The setting-up work took several weeks. After one of my inspection trips to see how far it had progressed, I passed through Krakow, and Streckenbach told me … he wanted to tell me a good joke. He was always a cheerful fellow from Hamburg. The joke was that the Governor General had ordered that I was to be arrested by him immediately on setting foot on the General Government’s own soil. That must have been at the end of 1939 or the beginning of 1940.

Questioner

Do you know that the Warsaw ghetto was supposed to be closed on 12 September 1940?

Eichmann

No, I do not know that…

Questioner

It is interesting how Frank says in Lublin on 22 April 1941:

Questioner reads from Frank's diary

“Who can demand of us, after we have been fighting the Jew for twenty years, that we still show any consideration? If the Jews in the world ask for pity today, that leaves us cold.” On 9 September 1941, Dr. Humel, head of an office in Warsaw, states that the danger of typhus is becoming ever greater for the Polish population too. He reports 2,405 cases of typhus in the ghetto, but says the actual number is much higher, and so on… Many Poles ill with typhus have also been found, and it is therefore important to press for the ghetto to be sealed off completely. Then an order of the … is issued, permitting Jews on the country road to be shot—which basically means imposing the death penalty for leaving the ghetto unlawfully.

Questioner

Was that generally the case with the ghettos, that permission to shoot was given?

Open page image and German
Page 575 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 575 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Im Oktober habe ich dann mit Stahllecker diese Fahrt gemacht, um uns den Pla… auszusuchen – ich fuhr mit Stahllecker in seinem Wagen den russischen Korridor durch und da unterhielten wir uns noch mit einem Kommissar, ich sehe den Mann noch vor mir, ein sehr hochgewachsener, breitschultriger Kerl mit einer Lederjacke, als Uniform – braune Lederjacke, und der stand dort und leitete so gewissermaßen den Kontrollposten am Eingang zum des Korridor – Der Korridor war etliche km lang, wohl 20 km, und unterwegs wurden wir von Bevölkerung bestaunt … in einem kleinen Dorf hatten wir eine Panne, irgendetwas war nicht in Ordnung, und es versammelten sich also um uns herum hunderte von dieser kleinstädtischen Bevölkerung, also um diese Zeit war das … dann kam die Zusammenstellung der Transporte, aus Theresienstadt das M… …rialu aus dem Mährischostraum die Handwerker, weil ich mir sagte, in diesem I… …dustriegebiet habe ich die besten Handwerker, dann wurden sie nach … es wa… bereits Winter gewesen, mit Schnee … die Einrichtungsarbeiten haben mehrer… Wochen gedauert und im Anschluß an einer meiner Inspektionsreisen, wie weit das nun gediehen ist, kam ich durch Krakau, und da sagte mir Streckenbach, er mir einen guten Witz erzählen wolle, er war ein immer vergnügter Hamburger und der Witz sei also, daß der Generalgouverneur angeordnet hätte, daß ich b… Betreten des Gen Gov eigenen Boden sofort von ihm zu verhaften wäre. Das mus… also gewesen sein, Ende 39 Anfang 40. Ist Ihnen bekannt, daß am 12. Sep. 1940 das Ghetto von Warschau geschlossen werden sollte. Nein, das weiß ich nicht … Es ist interessant wie Frank am 22. April 1941 in Lublin sagt, wer kann von uns, nachdem wir nun 20 Jahre im Kampf mit dem Juden stehen, verlangen, daß wir noch irgendwelche Rücksichten nehmen. Wenn heute die Juden in der Welt um Mitleid bitten, so läßt uns das kalt. Am 9. Sept. 1941 wird von Dr. Humel, Amtschef in Warschau, festgestellt, daß die Gefahren des Fleckfiebers auch für die polnische Bevölkerung immer größe… wird und daß der Fleckfieberstand im Ghetto 2 405 Fälle gemeldet sind, daß der tatsächliche Stand aber viel höher sei usw. … Außerdem hat man sehr viel an Fleckfieber erkrankte Polen festgestellt, und daß es darum wichtig ist, die vollkommene Abschließung des Ghettos zu betreiben. Dann wird ein Befehl des … gegeben, wo auf Juden auf der Landstraße geschossen werden darf, – und d.h. im Grunde genommen verhängung der Todesstrafe bei widerrechtlichen Verlassens des Ghettos. War das bei den Ghettos überhaupt so, daß eine Schießerlaubnis gegeben wurde ?

Draft translation

2 Volume 57 In October I then made this trip with Stahllecker, in order to pick out the [place/pla-] for us - - I rode with Stahllecker in his car through the Russian cor[ridor] and there we still talked with a Commissar, I can still see the man before me, a very tall, broad-shouldered fellow with a leather jacket, as uniform - - brown leather jacket, and he stood there and directed, so to speak, the control post at the entrance [TS INS: to] of the corridor - The corridor was several km long, probably 2o km, and along the way we were gawked at by [the] population ... in a small village we had a breakdown, some­thing was not in order, and so hundreds of this small-town population gathered around us us, so at that time it was .... then came the assembling of the transports, from Theresienstadt the m[ate]ria[l], from the Moravian-Ostrau region the craftsmen, because I said to myself, in this in[dustrial] area I have the best craftsmen, then they were [taken] to ... it wa[s] already winter, with snow .... the setting-up works lasted sever[al] weeks and following one of my inspection trips, how far it had now progressed, I came through Krakow, and there Streckenbach said to me, [that] he wanted to tell me a good joke, he was an always cheerful Hamburger and the joke was thus, that the Governor-General had ordered that I, up[on] entering the Gen[eral] Gov[ernment]'s own soil, was immediately to be arrested by him. That mus[t] therefore have been, end of 39 beginning of 40. Is it known to you that on 12 Sep. 1940 the ghetto of Warsaw was supposed to be closed. No, that I do not know .... It is interesting how Frank on 22 April 1941 in Lublin says, who among us can, after we have now stood 2o years in struggle with the Jew, demand that we still take any considerations. When today the Jews in the world beg for pity, that leaves us cold. On 9 Sept. 1941 it is established by Dr. Humel, office chief in Warsaw, that the dangers of spotted fever [typhus] for the Polish population too are becoming ever great[er] and that the spotted-fever count in the ghetto [is] reported [as] 2 4o5 cases, that the actual count however is much higher etc. .... Besides, one has established very many Poles ill with spotted fever, and that it is therefore important to press for the complete sealing-off of the ghetto. Then an order of the .... is given, where at Jews on the country road [it] may be shot, - - and that is, at bottom, the impo­sition of the death penalty for unlawful leaving of the ghetto. Was that with the ghettos at all the case, that a permission to shoot was given ¿

I do not know, because I never inspected ghettos. The only place in my area of responsibility where a restricted zone was imposed on the Jew was Theresienstadt. But the border gendarmerie there had no permission to shoot. And Theresienstadt was not so sealed off either, because the main Dresden–Prague road ran right through the middle of it.

Questioner

But it says here that

Questioner reads from Frank's diary

in Warsaw, despite bringing in a …, they had so far been able to pass only forty-five death sentences. Of these, only eight were said to have been carried out, since the clemency commission in Krakow had to decide each individual case. A further six hundred applications for sentencing are pending.

Questioner

[Further reading] [unintelligible on the recording]

[Typed topic cue: Keywords concerning a speech by Frank dated ….] [unintelligible on the recording]

[Typed as notes in the transcript:

Questioner reads from Frank's diary

Deliberate attempts are repeatedly made to speak of cruelty and harshness. As a matter of principle, we want to have pity only for the German people—the others had no pity for us either…

Questioner

]

[Further reading, almost entirely] [unintelligible on the recording]

So several things emerge from this. That is dated 9 September 1941—two months after the beginning of the eastern campaign, two months after the Commissar Order came into force. He goes on to say that, from an estimated two and a half million Jews who were there in the east, in Poland, he has now reached three and a half million. These are probably Jews who have been filtering through in increasing numbers. This is also reported from Jewish sources, so that Poland became more and more of a reservoir for Jews. That is not unimportant for the subsequent calculation of the stated numbers of those exterminated. On the other hand, there must also have been a large migration of Jews to the Russian side.

Eichmann

They fled like swarms of bees, and the Russians immediately let them pass freely if they gave them a watch… If I am not mistaken, Murmelstein told me that.

Questioner

Do you have any idea of the numbers?

Eichmann

Yes, I once estimated them—100,000, 200,000, 250,000, figures of that order. But that was an intuitive estimate on our part. We had no control; they crossed along the whole broad frontier. That was back then, before the Russian war. Later, when the General Government began its measures against the Jews, you can imagine—if so many had already run away beforehand, just because it had led there to a

Open page image and German
Page 576 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 576 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Das weiß ich nicht, denn ich habe nie Ghettos kontrolliert. Das einzige wo den Jude eine Bannmeile gesetzt war, bei mir in meinem Dienstbereich, das war Theresienstadt gewesen. Aber da hatte die Grenz.Gend. keine Erlaubnis zu schießen – Aber Theresienstadt war ja auch nicht so abgeschlossen, denn mitten durch Theresienstadt führte ja die große Autostraße Dresden-Prag. Aber hier kommt zum Ausdruck, daß in Warschau trotz Hinzunahme einer erst 45 Todesurteile fällen können. Von diesen wären erst 8 vollstreckt worden, da über jeden einzelnen Fall die Gnadenkommission in Krakau die Entscheidung treffen müsse. Weitere 600 Anträge auf Verurteilung liegen vor. (Weiteres Vorlesen einfach unverständlich… Stichworte; Bzgl einer Rede von Frank vom… (unverständlich ) Bewußt wird immer wieder versucht von Grausamkeit und Härte zu sprechen, Mitleid wollen wir grundsätzlich nur mit dem deutschen Volk haben, – die anderen haben mit uns auch kein Mitleid gehabt… (Weiteres Vorlesen fast unverständlich – Also hieraus gehen nun einige Sachen hervor, daß ist vom 9. Sept. 41 – also 2 Monate nach Anfang des Ostfeldzuges, – 2 Monate nach in Kraft treten, das Kommissarbefehler – er spricht weiter, daß er nun von schätzungsweise 21/2 Mill Juden, die da wären im Osten, in Polen, er jetzt auf 31/2 Mill Juden gekommen ist, wahrscheinlich handelt es sich um Juden die da mehr und mehr durchgesickert sind – das wird ja auch von jüd. Seite bekannt gegeben – sodaß Polen mehr und mehr ein Reservoir für Juden wurde, – das ist nicht unwichtig, für die nachherige Berechnung der angegebenen Zahlen der Vernichteten, – andererseits muß aber auch eine große Abwanderung statt gefunden haben der Juden nach der russ Seite. – Sie sind ja wie Bienenschwärme getürmt – und die Russen haben ihnen sofort freien Durchgang gegeben, wenn sie ihnen eine Uhr gaben… wenn ich nicht irre hat mir das Murmelstein erzählt. Haben Sie eine Ahnung in welcher Höhe??? Ja, ich habe sie einmal geschätzt, – 100-200-250 000, in jeder Größenordnung. Das ist aber ein Fingerspitzengefühl von uns gewesen, wir haben ja keine Kontrolle gehabt, sie sind ja auf der ganzen breiten Linie rüber. Das war damals gewesen, noch vor dem russ. Krieg. Später als das Gen. Gov. mit den Judenmaßnahmen anfing, dann können Sie sich vorstellen, wenn schon vorher soviel abgehauen sind, nur weil es dort zu einer

Draft translation

3 Volume 57 [HW: 576] That I do not know, for I never controlled ghettos. The only [place] where a [B]annmeile ["ban-mile"/prohibited zone] was set [for] the Jew, in my sphere of duty, that was Theresienstadt. But there the border-gendarmerie had no permission to shoot -- But Theresienstadt was also not so closed off, for right through the middle of Theresienstadt ran the great highway Dresden-Prague. . But here it comes to expression, that in Warsaw despite the addition of a [they] could only pass 45 death sentences [as yet]. Of these only 8 would have been carried out, since about each individual case the clemency commission in Krakow must [make] [DEL: pass] the decision. A further 600 applications for sentencing are pending. (Further reading simply unintelligible....... Catchwords; Regarding a speech by Frank of the......... (unintelligible) Consciously it is again and again attempted to speak of cruelty and harshness, we want on principle to have pity only with the German people,------- the others also had no pity with us...... (Further reading almost unintelligible-------- So from this now several things emerge, that is from the 9th Sept. 41-- so 2 months after the beginning of the Eastern campaign,-- 2 months after the coming into force of the commissar order----he speaks further, that he now from roughly 2 1/2 million Jews, who were there in the East, in Poland, has now arrived at 3 1/2 million Jews, probably it is a matter of Jews who there more and more seeped through----- that is also made known from Jewish side [DEL: [illegible]] --so that Poland more and more became a reservoir for Jews,---- that is not unimportant, for the later calcula[HW: t]ion of the stated figures of the exterminated,--on the other hand there must however also have taken place a great migration of the Jews to the Russian side.-- They are heaped up like swarms of bees --and the Russians gave them at once free passage, if they gave them a watch.....if I am not mistaken Murmelstein told me that. Have you any idea in what magnitude??? Yes, I once estimated it,--100-200-250,000, in every order of magnitude. But that was a fingertip-feeling of ours, we had after all no control, they went over on the whole broad line. That was then, still before the Russian war. Later when the G[eneral] Gov[ernment] began with the Jewish measures, then you can imagine, if already beforehand so many had cleared off, only because there [it came] to a

local concentration or ghettoization—how many Jews then migrated into Russian territory when they now felt the pressure behind it. Namely, when physical extermination began…

Questioner

Wait a moment. Then they would have been in Russian territory, or rather in the sphere of influence of the deployment detachments (Einsatzkommandos)—out of the frying pan into the fire. If they wanted to reach unoccupied Russian territory, they would have had to … behind the Wehrmacht—on… (an, fragment)

(One word) [unintelligible on the recording]

Eichmann

No, in the period before that. There had been almost two years, up to June 1941. What I am telling you about the 200,000 or 250,000 belongs to the time of Nisko on the Sa…, shortly after the Polish campaign. So, the end of 1939 to the middle of 1941—that was the figure I was somehow given. I believe we even included it in our statistics. And I believe we put it down as 100,000; we did not want to put it too high. That was safer. As for how many crossed the border from the beginning of 1940, when the two thousand skilled workers were at Nisko on the San under Murmelstein’s direction, until the outbreak of the Russian war in June 1941, more than a year later, I do not know. The pressure kept getting stronger, and the Jew could roughly work out what was still to come.

Questioner

But Frank speaks of an increase in the number of Jews. He makes no mention at all of Jews having migrated into Russian territory. Now there could be two explanations for that: he may regard it as a shortcoming (Mango) on his part that Jews slipped through…

Eichmann

Yes, out of his border area…

Questioner

Yes, but then I would say he was not responsible, after all; it was not the General Government.

Eichmann

Yes, but it was all his area. Everything was subject to his decision; he was the sovereign authority.

Questioner

But beyond the D-Line (demarcation line), was that not a matter for the Wehrmacht?

Eichmann

The Wehrmacht, yes, quite right… But I believe we had no border troops at that time. The Governor General did have something like a Wehrmacht commander in Krakow. He could do nothing without the permission of the General Government authority—there was no war on. You can already see from this that he cared a jot about it: he had given orders to arrest a member of the Reich Security Main Office, a desk officer in the senior service. That shows this high-handedness… Frank had a sort of—how shall I put it—the beginnings of a dictator’s delusions, megalomania—to have me arrested just like that… although it is only one individual case. He liked to show off, unlike K. H. Frank in Bohemia and Moravia, who was an extraordinarily

Open page image and German
Page 577 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 577 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

örtlichen Konzentrierung kam oder zu einer Ghettoisierung, wieviel Juden dann in das russ Gebiet abgewandert sind, wo sie jetzt nun Druck dahinter verspürten. Nämlich als die physische Vernichtung anfing… Moment, dann wären sie ja in russ Gebiet, bzw. in die Einflußzone der Einsatzkommandos, also vom Regen in die Traufe… wenn sie nun in unbesetztes russ Gebiet gelangen wollten, dann hätten sie hinter der Wehrmacht an (?) (Wort unverständlich) Nein, in dem Zeitraum vorher, es waren doch fast 2 Jahre Zeit gewesen, bis Juni 41, was ich Ihnen sage mit den 200 oder 250 000, das ist die Zeit gewesen Nisko a/ sa…(??) also kurz nach dem Polenfeldzug. Also Ende 39 bis Mitte 41, da war die Zahl gewesen, die ich irgendwie genannt bekam. Ich glaube, wir haben sie sogar in unserer Statistik geführt. Und ich glaube wir haben da die Zahl 100 000 aufgestellt, wir wollten sie nicht so hoch aufstellen, das war sicherer. Was nun von Anfang 1940, als die 2000 Facharbeiter unter Murmelsteins Leitung in Nisko a/S. waren, bis zum Ausbruch des russ. Krieges, also Juni 1941, mehr als ein Jahr später, was da die Grenze gewechselt hat, daß weiß ich nicht – denn der Druck werde ja immer Stärker, der Jude konnte sich ja ungefähr ausrechnen was da noch kommt. Er, Frank, aber spricht von einem Zuwachs der Juden – er weist gar nicht daraufhin daß Juden nach dem russ Gebiet abgewandert sind. Nun könnte es dafür 2 Erklärungen geben, daß er es seinerseits als ein Mango ansieht, daß Juden durchgeschlüpft sind, Ja, aus seinem Grenzbereich… Ja, aber dann wurde ich sagen er war doch nicht verantwortlich, es war doch nicht das Gen. Gov. Ja, aber es war doch alles sein Bereich, es oblag doch alles seiner Entscheidung, er war doch der Hoheitsträger gewesen. Aber nach der D-Linie, war das nicht eine Angelegenheit der Wehrmacht. Wehrmacht, ja, ganz richtig… aber ich glaube wir hatten um diese Zeit keine Grenztruppen, – aber der Gen Gov hatte doch in Krakau so etwas ähnliches wie einen Wehrmacht Befehlshaber gehabt, (?) – er konnte ja nichts machen, es war ja kein Krieg, ohne Genehmigung der Gen Gov. Behörde – Sie sehen schon daraus daß er sich einen Deut darum kümmerte, er hatte ja Befehl gegeben einen Angeh, des RSHA, einen Referenten im höheren Dienst zu verhaften, – man sieht daraus diese Selbstherrlichkeit… Frank hatte so eine Art, wie soll ich sagen – so einen beginnenden Diktatorenwahn – Greessenwahn – mich da so einfach zu verhaften…obwohl es nur einen Einzelfall darstellt. – Er protzte gerne, im Gegensatz zu dem K.H. Frank in B.u.M. der ein außerordentlich

Draft translation

Band 57 [HW: 577] local concentration came about, or to a ghettoization, how many Jews then migrated into Russian territory, where they now felt pressure behind [them]. Namely when the physical extermination began.... One moment, then they would after all be in Russian territory, or rather in the zone of influence of the Einsatzkommandos, so out of the frying pan into the fire.....if they now wanted to get into unoccupied Russian territory, then they would have had to [go] behind the Wehrmacht (?) (word unintelligible) No, in the period before, there had after all been almost 2 years' time, up to June 41; what I am telling you with the 200 or 250,000, that was the time [of] Nisko a/ Sa...(??) so shortly after the Polish campaign. So end of 39 to mid-41, that was the number that I somehow got named. I believe we even carried it in our statistics. And I believe we set up the number 100,000 there, we did not want to set it so high, that was safer. What now from the beginning of 1940, when the 2000 skilled workers were under [DEL: [?Nob-lstein's?]] [HW: [?Murmel?]] direction in Nisko a/S., up to the outbreak of the Russian war, so June 1941, more than a year later, what there crossed the border, that I do not know --for the pressure did after all become ever stronger, the Jew could after all roughly calculate for himself what still was coming. He, Frank, however, speaks of an increase of the Jews---he does not point at all to [the fact] that Jews migrated into the Russian territory. Now there could be 2 explanations for this, that he for his part regards it as a shortcoming that Jews slipped through,, Yes, out of his border area... Yes, but then I would say he was after all not responsible, it was after all not the General Government. Yes, but it was after all all his area, everything was after all subject to his decision, he was after all the bearer of sovereignty. But after the D-Line, was that not a matter of the Wehrmacht. Wehrmacht, yes, quite right... but I believe we had no border troops at this time,---but the General Government did after all have in Cracow something similar to a [HW: [?Wehrmacht?]] [DEL: commander], (?)---he could not do anything after all, it was after all not war, without permission of the General Government authority-- You already see from that that he did not care a jot about it, he had after all given orders to arrest a member of the RSHA, a Referent in the senior service,-- one sees from that this self-imperiousness.... Frank had a manner, how shall I say--- such an incipient dictator-mania--megalomania----to arrest me there just like that...although it represents only an individual case.--He liked to show off, in contrast to the [HW: K.H.] Frank in B.u.M. who was an extraordinarily

modest man, who did not tend to exaggerate and was a man of few words. This Frank, on the other hand, was a powerful speaker who liked putting himself in the limelight. I believe Streckenbach told me that when Poland-Frank set off from his office for home or somewhere, there was an enormous motorcade, with sirens and police and so on—rather like an oriental prince setting out on a journey. If two and a half million Jews were too few for him, he readily added another million. The Führer took up the Jewish problem in every speech, and at that time everyone was pressing to contribute something to the solution…

Just read Dr. Blau’s collection: it shows how everyone pushed his way in and believed this or that was his own exclusive preserve… You can also see it from the fact that Frank forbade me to enter and wanted to handle the matter himself. He obviously saw me as a rival. If he had let the Reich Security Main Office operate freely from the end of 1939 to 1941, if he had allowed the plan I drew up, with my superiors’ approval, to be carried out, Frank would have had nothing at all to do with it. The whole question in the General Government would have been solved completely without bloodshed. He would only have had to give me the Lublin district. I had discussed it with the Jews; Murmelstein was enthusiastic at the time.

I had to start small then. If I had immediately asked for the city of Radom [?], I would never have got it, because it first had to be cleared of the Polish population. But now that I had established myself at Nisko on the San, it was a small Jewish state in the making—just as I had started small with the Central Office in Vienna, and then suddenly they wanted Central Offices everywhere… Nisko was a little village, and I believe the Jews were entitled to a restricted zone of ten kilometres by ten kilometres. I had simply taken all of that for myself. The Jews were provided with horses; I had a Jewish veterinarian there, so they had animals too.

I also said to Murmelstein, “Here you must learn to ride too, not just sit at a desk.” That was the first time Murmelstein got onto a nag. I rode myself as well; there was not much you could do with vehicles. Murmelstein clambered onto the horse and sat there like a grease spot. I said to him, “Well, Murmelstein, what is life like on the back of a horse?” Well, he was not pleased. But why am I describing all this? If it had been a small area, they would not have needed horses. It was an area of ten kilometres by ten kilometres round about. That was the beginning. And I say once again, it would all have happened completely without bloodshed…

Open page image and German
Page 578 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 578 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

bescheidener Mensch war. Der nicht zu Übertreibungen neigte, wortkarg war – er, dieser Frank, redegewaltig, sich gerne ins Rampenlicht stellend. Ich glaube Streckenbach erzählte mir daß, wenn der Polenfrank loszog, von seiner Dienststelle nach Hause oder so, daß war eine gewaltige Autokaravane gewesen, mit Sirenen und Polizei, tec – quasi so wenn sich ein Orientalischer Fürst auf Reisen begibt. – Wenn ihm 21/2 Mill Juden zu wenig waren, gab er ohne weiteres noch 1 Mill dazu, das Judenproblem wurde ja vom Führer in jeder Rede aufgegriffen und in jener Zeit drängte ja alles dazu irgendetwas zu der Lösung beizutragen… Lesen Sie einmal die Sammlung von Dr. Blau, da sieht man, wie sich jeder hineindrängte, wie jeder auch glaubte, dies und jenes für sich gepachtet zu haben… Man sieht es auch daraus, daß Frank mir das Betreten verbot und selbst die Sache machen wollte. – er sah in mir offensichtlich eine Konkurrenz. Hätte er das RSHA von Ende 39 bis 41 schalten und walten lassen, hätte er den Plan, den ich aufstellte und für den ich die Genehmigung meiner Vorgesetzten hatte, durchführen lassen, dann hatte Frank ja gar nichts mit zu tun gehabt, denn wäre die ganze Frage im Gen. Gov. völlig unblutig gelöst worden – Er hätte mir ja nur den Distrikt Lublin geben brauchen, und ich hatte das ja mit den Juden besprochen, Murmelstein war damals begeistert – ich mußte damals ja erst klein anfangen – hätte ich damals gleich die Stadt Radom ?) verlangt, ich hätte sie nie bekommen, denn es mußte ja erst von der poln. Bevölkerung geräumt werden. Nun da ich mich aber in Nisko a/s festgesetzt hatte, es war ein kleiner Judenstaat im Werden – genau so wie ich auch in Wien mit der Zentralstelle klein anfing, auf einmal aber wollten sie auch überall die Zentralstellen haben, – Nisko war ein kleines Dörfchen, und ich glaube den Juden stand eine Bannmeile von 10 km zu 10 km zu… das hatte ich mir einfach alles genommen.D.Juden waren mit Pferden versehen, ich hatte einen jüd. Tierarzt dort, – sie hatten also auch Tiere gehabt, ich sagte auch zu Murmelstein, hier müssen sie auch reiten lernen und nicht nur am Schreibtisch sitzen… Murmelstein ist da zum ersten Mal auf einen Gaul – ich bin selbst auch geritten, mit Fahrzeugen konnte man nicht viel machen – Murmelstein kroch aufs Pferd und saß dort wie ein Fettfleck – ich sagte ihm damals, na, Murmelstein, wie ist das Leben auf dem Rücken eines Pferdes? Nun, er war nicht erbaut – Aber warum schildere ich das alles? – Wäre es ein kleines Gelände gewesen, dann hätten sie ja keine Pferde gebraucht, nun es war ein Gelände gewesen von 10 km zu 10 km im Umkreis – Das war der Anfang gewesen – Und ich sage noch einmal, es wäre völlig unblutig alles geschehen…

Draft translation

[HW: 8] Band 57 [HW: 578] ...a modest man was. Who did not tend toward exaggerations, was taciturn-- he, this Frank, eloquent, gladly putting himself into the limelight, I believe Streckenbach told me that, when the Poland-Frank set off, from his office to go home or so, that was a mighty motorcade, with sirens and police, etc--just as when an Oriental prince sets off on a journey.--If 2 1/2 million Jews were too few for him, he readily added another 1 million on top, the Jewish problem was indeed taken up by the Führer in every speech and in that time everything was pressing to contribute something or other to the solution.....Read once the collection by Dr. Blau, there one sees how everyone pushed his way in, how everyone also believed to have this and that leased for himself..... One sees it also from the fact that Frank forbade me entry and wanted to do the matter himself.-- he evidently saw in me a competition/rival. Had he let the RSHA rule and dispose from the end of '39 to '41, had he let the plan that I drew up and for which I had the authorization of my superiors be carried out, then Frank would have had nothing at all to do with it, for the whole question in the Gen. Gov. would have been solved completely bloodlessly-- He would have only needed to give me the District Lublin, and I had indeed discussed this with the Jews, Murmelstein was at that time enthusiastic-----I had after all to begin small at that time--had I at that time demanded right away the city of Radom 2), I would [DEL: [?it?]] never have gotten it, for it had after all first to be cleared of the Polish population. Now since I had, however, established myself firmly in Nisko a/s, it was a small Jewish state in the making-- exactly just as I also began small in Vienna with the Central Office, but all at once they wanted to have the Central Offices everywhere too,---Nisko was a small little village, and I believe the Jews were entitled to a prohibited zone of [HW: (approx. not all ?!!)] 10 km by 10 km to...that I had simply taken all for myself. The Jews were provided with horses, I had a Jewish veterinarian there,-- they had thus also had animals, I said also to Murmelstein, here they must also learn to ride and not only sit at the desk...Murmelstein got there for the first time onto a nag --I myself also rode, with vehicles one could not do much---Murmelstein crawled onto the horse and sat there like a grease-stain--I said to him at that time, well, Murmelstein, how is life on the back of a horse? Well, he was not delighted---- But why do I describe all this?---- Had it been a small piece of terrain, then they would not have needed horses, well it was a piece of terrain of 10 km by 10 km in circumference-- That had been the beginning---- And I say once more, it would have all happened completely bloodlessly...

For it was to become an autonomous Jewish state in the Lublin district. I had also thought about how we would have employed the Jews. That cannot happen overnight either. I cannot bring a million, two million or five hundred thousand Jews there in transports all at once: they will croak on me, or I will have nothing but epidemics… No, Nisko on the San—that was where the first specialists were. Barracks were to be built there; it was to become a base, and an industry was to develop there. That is why the skilled workers came first; later unskilled workers would have been needed too. It would have grown just as our large concentration camps did.

They too grew to a hundred thousand and more, and there had been nothing there before either. Only it was not to become a concentration camp, but an autonomous Jewish state in the Lublin district, under the protectorate of the German Reich. That was to be a final solution (Endloesung) to the Jewish question. And so today I cannot absolve Poland-Frank of being the very initiator of this enormous extermination of Jews in his General Government, which he set in motion with his orders and his people… Because of his shortsightedness and his frantic fear that anyone might meddle in his area of command… That is the truth.

Questioner

Now, when people came out of the General Government and made off eastward into Russian-occupied territory, they slipped through a barrier. Whose authority was that barrier under—the OKW (Armed Forces High Command), a central office for border-police matters in Berlin, or Poland-Frank?

When did Department IV get the border police?

Eichmann

Before the war.

All right, that does not matter further. But I was at the D-Line (demarcation line) several times, and you must not imagine that it was a hermetically sealed territory. Here and there you had a couple of fellows standing at the main crossing points, and then for ten or twenty kilometres you saw nothing at all—neither Russians nor anyone else. At Nisko on the San, for example, there was a small Wehrmacht unit when I came up there.

Questioner

It lies much farther west.

Eichmann

Yes, but you could get into Russian territory there across the San. It was not so hermetically sealed off.

Questioner

But the question remains: was Poland-Frank responsible? In that case he had reason not to mention it at all. Or did it not fall within his authority?

Eichmann

I think it did fall within his authority, because it was his sovereign territory. There was no war on. The Reich Protector was responsible for his Protectorate’s borders too, so that not everybody would come in from the Reich to

Open page image and German
Page 579 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 579 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Denn es sollte ein autonomer Judenstaat werden im Distrikt Lublin. Wie wir nun die Juden beschäftigt hätten, auch darüber habe ich mir Gedanken gemacht – auch das geht nicht von heute auf morgen, ich kann nicht auf einmal 1 Mill oder 2 Mill. oder 500 000 Juden in Transporten dorthin bringen, da verrecken sie mir oder ich habe nichts als Seuchen… Nein, Nisko a/S, da waren die ersten Fachleute, dort sollten Baracken gebaut werden, das sollte ein Stützpunkt werden, da sollte eine Industrie entstehen, – daher auch erst die Facharbeiter, dann hätte man auch Hilfsarbeiter benötigt, aber es wäre dann so gewachsen, wie auch unsre Groß KL, die wuchsen ja auch zu 100 000 und …ahr und da war früher auch nichts dagewesen. – nur sollte es ja kein KL werden, sondern ein autonomer Judenstaat, der im Distrikt Lublin, unter dem als Prot. für das Deutsche Reich. Das sollte eine Endlösung der Judenfrage sein. – Und so kann ich heute den Polenfrank nicht frei sprechen, daß er überhaupt der Initiator ist, für diese gewaltige Judenvernichtung in seinem Gen Gov, die er ja mit seinen Befehlen und mit seinen Leuten angesetzt hat… Zufolge seiner Kurzsichtigkeit und zufolge seiner krampfhaften Angst, daß jemand in seinem Befehlsbereich überhaupt herum fummeln könnte… Das ist die Wahrheit. Wenn nun Leute aus dem Gen Gov kamen und nach Osten, nach dem russ besetzten Gebiet sich absetzten, dann schlüpften sie doch durch einen Sperriegel, wem unterstand nun der Sperriegel, dem OKW oder einer Zentralstelle für Grenzpol. Art in Berlin, oder dem Polenfrank? Wann hat das Amt IV, die Grenzpolizei bekommen? Vor dem Kriege Gut, spielt weiter keine Rolle – aber ich war mehrmals an der D-Linie und man darf sich nicht vorstellen, daß es ein hermetisch abgeschlossenes Gebiet war, – man hat hier und da mal ein paar Heinis stehen gehabt an den Hauptübergangsstellen, und dann haben Sie 10 oder 20 km überhaupt nichts gesehen weder vom Russen, noch von irgend jemand anderem. – ZB. Nisko a/S, da war eine kleine Wehrmachteinheit gewesen, als ich dort hinauf kam Es liegt viel weiter westlicher Ja, aber dort konnte man ja hinein kommen in das russ Gebiet über den San (?) es war nicht so hermetisch abgeschlossen – Aber die Frage bleibt – war Polenfrank dafür verantwortlich, dann hatte er Grund überhaupt nicht davon zu reden, oder war er nicht zuständig? Ich meine er war zuständig, denn es war ja sein Hoheitsbereich gewesen… Es war ja kein Krieg. Es war ja auch der Reichsprot. zuständig gewesen, für seine Prot. Grenzen, damit nicht alles aus dem Reich hinein kommt um das

Draft translation

For it was to become an autonomous Jewish state in the District of Lublin. How we would then have employed the Jews, about that too I have given thought--- that too does not happen from today to tomorrow, I cannot at once bring 1 mill. or 2 mill. or 500,000 Jews there in transports, there they perish on me or I have nothing but epidemics....No, Nisko on the S[an], there were the ra[?]te[?] specialists, barracks were to be built there, that was to become a base of support, an industry was to arise there,--therefore first the skilled workers, then one would also have needed auxiliary/unskilled workers, but it would then have grown, like also our big KL [concentration camps], those grew indeed to 100,000 and [more] and there earlier too there had been nothing.--only it was indeed not to become a KL, but rather an autonomous Jewish state, that in the District of Lublin,xxxxxxxxxx [HW: [?under the?]] [DEL: like] [HW: [?as?]] Prot. for the [?German?] Reich. That was to be a Final Solution of the Jewish question.-- And so I cannot today acquit Poland-Frank, that he is at all the initiator, for this enormous extermination of Jews in his Gen[eral] Gov[ernment], which he indeed set in motion with his orders and with his people... In consequence of his short-sightedness and in consequence of his convulsive fear that anyone in his area of command could at all meddle around...... That is the truth. If now people came out of the xxxxxx Gen Gov and toward the East, toward the Russian-occupied territory withdrew, then they slipped through a barrier-bar[rier], to whom was the barrier then subordinate, to the OKW or to a central office for border-pol[ice] matters in Berlin, or to Poland-Frank? When did Amt IV [Department IV] receive the border police? Before the war Good, plays no further role--but I was several times at the D-Line and one may not imagine that it was a hermetically sealed-off territory,--one has here and there had a couple of fellows standing at the main crossing points, and then you saw nothing at all for 10 or 20 km neither of the Russian, nor of anyone else.- E.g. Nisko on the S[an], there had been a small Wehrmacht unit, when I came up there It lies much farther west Yes, but there one could indeed come into the Russian territory across the San (?) it was not so hermetically sealed-off--- But the question remains--was Poland-Frank responsible for it, then he had reason not to speak of it at all, or was he not competent/responsible? I mean he was competent/responsible, for it had indeed been his sovereign domain.... It was indeed no war. Indeed the Reich Prot[ector] too had been responsible, for his Prot[ectorate] borders, so that not everything comes in out of the Reich in order to

buy up the Protectorate. That is also why there were transit passes and all those little tricks. The Reich Protector was responsible for that. Of course he worked it out in the closest cooperation with the Reich Economics Ministry, because neither could have any interest in it.

Questioner

Then, on 17 October 1941, a government meeting discusses the following matter:

Questioner reads from Frank's diary

“The city of Lublin had about forty thousand Jews in 1939. In the course of time about twelve thousand of them have been resettled, but almost the same number has moved in again by today.”

Unknown speaker

From the rural hinterland…

Questioner

When he says “resettled” there—is that Globocnik, October 1941?

Eichmann

That is possible. In any case, it was a measure of the General Government’s own.

Questioner

And it goes on to say that

Questioner reads from Frank's diary

the Jews who moved in brought a great deal of scabies and other diseases with them and were therefore carriers of these epidemics. There will only be a clarification of the Jewish question when all the Jews can be transported away.

Eichmann

If Poland-Frank thought he could deport his Jews into the occupied Russian territories, he met the strongest resistance from Reich Commissioner Rosenberg for those occupied Russian territories. Nobody would take the Jews off anyone else—what was he to do with them? Hence that drastic expression, “Liquidate them yourselves.” It was not the Reich Security Main Office that said that; it was the Rosenberg office, on which he wanted to foist them. I reckon Heydrich turned Poland-Frank down flat: “Deal with your own business yourself.”

Questioner reads from Frank's diary

Then, at a police meeting on 18 June 1942, the problem of resettling Jews in Krakow is discussed. Carrying out such an operation requires the provision of sufficient transport trains. Although a train embargo has been ordered for the next fourteen days, he has secured, in negotiations with President …, the occasional provision of trains to transport Jews away. After the embargo expires, the operation against the Jews must be intensified.

Questioner

It is perhaps interesting in this respect: even with the General Government’s high-handedness, the transport people still had to be involved as the responsible authority.

Eichmann

Yes—you might not believe me when I describe the difficulties I had with the Reich Economics Ministry. It was not so simple when some Gauleiter who had gone wild suddenly wanted to evacuate a hundred thousand Jews. No, the trains had to be provided first. The Reich Transport Ministry was itself a central authority, and when they said no and invoked other orders

Open page image and German
Page 580 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 580 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Prot. aufkaufen kann, deswegen hat es ja auch die Durchlaß-Scheine gegeben und alle diese Mätzchen. Da war der Reichsprot. zuständig gewesen, natürlich hat er das in engster Zusammenarbeit mit dem Reichswirtschaftsminist. ausgearbeite, denn beide konnten kein Interesse daran haben. Dann wird im Okt,17, 1941, – in einer Regierungssitzung gesprochen über folgende Angelegenheit; Die Stadt Lublin zählte 1939 rund 40 000 Juden, es sind davon im Laufe der Zeit ungefähr 12 000 ausgesiedelt worden, aber fast dieselbe Anzahl ist bis heute wieder zugewandert Aus dem flachen Hinterland… Wenn er da sagt, "ausgesiedelt" – ist das Globocnizz, Okt. 1941 Das ist möglich, jedenfalls ist das eine Gen. Gov. eigene Maßnahme gewesen. Und es heißt weiter, daß die eingewanderten Juden im hohen Maße Kretze und andere Krankheiten mit sich brachten, daher Träger dieser Seuchen. Eine Klärung der Judenfrage wird es erst dann sein, wenn der volle Abtransp. aller Juden bewerkstelligt sein kann. Wenn nun der Polenfrank glaubte seine Juden in die russ besetzten Gebieten abschieben zu können, dann ist er da auf stärkstem Widerstand gestoßen, beim Reichskommissar Rosenberg für die russ besetzten Gebieten – Keiner nahm vom anderen die Juden an, was soll er damit… Daher auch dieser drastische Ausdruck "liquidiert sie selbst"… Das hat nicht das RSHA, das hat das Amt Rosenberg gesagt, dem er sie aufhängen wollte.. Ich schätze daß Heydrich den Polenfrank glatt abblitzen lassen – mach' deinen Kram selber. Dann in einer Polizeisitzung am 18 Juni 1942 – wird gesprochen über das Problem der Judenaussiedlung in Krakau – Für die Durchführung einer solchen Aktion sei die Stellung von ausreichenden Transportzügen notwendig. Trotzdem für die nächsten 14 Tage eine Zugsperre verordnet sei, habe er in den Verhandlungen mit Präs. erreicht, daß für den Abtransp. von Juden ab und zu Züge bereit gestellt werden. Nach Ablauf der Sperrfrist müsse die Judenaktion verstärkt durchgeführt werden. – Es ist vielleicht insofern interessant, daß auch selbst bei der Selbstherrlichkeit des Gen. Gov. doch die Zuständigkeit der Transportheinis notwendig war Ja, – man glaubt es mir vielleicht gar nicht, wenn ich so schildere welche Schwierigkeiten ich mit dem Reichswirtschaftsminist. hatte – es ist nicht so einfach gewesen, wenn da irgend ein wildgewordener Gauleiter plötzlich 100 000 Juden evakuieren wollte – nein, da müßten erst einmal die Züge gestellt werden. Es war ja selbst eine Zentralinstanz, das Reichsverk. Minist und wenn die gesagt haben, nein, und haben sich auf anderweitige Befehle

Draft translation

7 Volume 57 [HW: [?540?]] [HW: [illegible]] Prot[ectorate] can buy up, that is also why there were the transit-passes and all these tricks. There the Reich Prot[ector] had been responsible, of course he worked this out in closest cooperation with the Reich Economics Minist[ry], for both could have no interest in it. Then on Oct. 17, 1941, in a government session there is talk about the following matter: The city of Lublin numbered around 40,000 Jews in 1939, of these in the course of time about 12,000 have been resettled, but almost the same number has by today immigrated again From the flat hinterland.. When he says there, "resettled"—is that Globocnizz, Oct. 1941 That is possible, in any case that was a Gen[eral] Gov[ernment] own measure. And it goes on that the immigrated Jews to a high degree brought scabies and other diseases with them, therefore carriers of these epidemics. A clarification of the Jewish question will only be [achieved] when the full transport-away of all Jews can be accomplished. If now the Poland-Frank believed he could deport his Jews into the Russ[ian] occupied territories, then he ran there into the strongest resistance, at the Reich Commissar Rosenberg for the Russ[ian] occupied territories---Nobody took the Jews off the other, what is he to do with them... Hence also this drastic expression "liquidate them yourself".... That was not the RSHA, that was the Office [of] Rosenberg [that] said [it], on whom he wanted to hang them.. I estimate that Heydrich let the Poland-Frank get flatly rebuffed--do your own stuff yourself. Then in a police session on 18 June 1942--there is talk about the problem of the Jewish resettlement in Kraków-- For the carrying-out of such an action the provision of [DEL: xxxxx] sufficient transport-trains is necessary. Although for the next 14 days a train-embargo is ordered, he had in the negotiations with Pres[ident]. achieved, that for the transport-away of Jews now and then trains are made ready. After expiry of the embargo-period the Jew-action must be carried out reinforced.-- It is perhaps insofar interes[DEL: ixxxx][TS INS: ting], that also even with the self-glory[/absolutism] of the Gen[eral] Gov[ernment] the competence of the transport-fellows was necessary Yes,--- one perhaps does not even believe it, when I describe like this what difficulties I had with the Reich Economics Minist[ry]---- it was not so simple, when some Gauleiter gone wild suddenly wanted to evacuate 100,000 Jews------no, there first the trains had to be provided. It was itself indeed a central authority, the Reich Transport Minist[ry] and when they said, no, and referred to other orders

or embargoes, there was nothing at all you could do. There was only one thing you could do: keep putting pressure on them or pestering them until you got a few trains, which were only a fraction of what you needed.

Questioner

Did you generally have to deal with embargoes like that as well?

Eichmann

Yes—Hstf. (Hauptsturmführer) Novak can testify to how I kept pressing that little man to procure transport trains. I was being pressed from above as well, and Novak met with a stubborn no from the R.V.M. (Reich Transport Ministry). I often had to intervene myself, and Günther too, so that we could get somewhere.

Questioner

Did these train embargoes last a long time?

Eichmann

Yes, often four, six, eight weeks.

Questioner

Not three or four months?

Eichmann

No, within three or four months I did get something after all, but not always the full number of trains. That happened. I remember one occasion when I got nothing at all any more and gave up. Well, I said to myself, then Heydrich will just have to do it himself. I drew up a submission; what came of it, I no longer know today.

Questioner

Do you have any idea how many embargoes were imposed on average in a year? Were there one, or two, or five, or eight?

Eichmann

No, I cannot give you an average figure. With the beginning of the Russian campaign, that was the period of almost trouble-free provision of rolling stock by the R.V.A. —requests of that kind were refused more often than granted.

Questioner

Can one say that every major offensive meant a train embargo for your office?

Eichmann

Yes, you can say that—though that should not quite mean that I could not still get two or three trains now and then.

Questioner

You will not have got any trains before the western offensive.

Eichmann

No.

Questioner

You will not have got any when the Norway and Denmark business got under way either.

Eichmann

Yes, difficulties there too.

Questioner

So in 1940, for much of 1940, you will not have got any trains—in May, June, July, up to the end of the campaign in France?

Eichmann

No.

Questioner

Then immediately afterwards?

Eichmann

Not immediately afterwards. There were still the supply trains, until I intervened and said: the trains go out full, with food supplies, ammunition and all sorts of equipment, and with soldiers,

Open page image and German
Page 581 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 581 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

oder Sperren, da konnte man gar nichts machen. Man konnte nur eines machen, sie solange treten oder belästigen, bis man dann ein paar Züge, die nur ein Bruchteil von dem waren, was man brauchte, bekommen hatte. Haben Sie denn auch im allgemeinen mit solchen Sperren zu tun gehabt? Ja, – das kann der Hstf. Novak bezeugen, wie dieser kleine Mann bedrängelt wurde von mir, er soll Transp. Züge beschaffen, denn man bedrängelte mich ja auch von oben und dem Novak wurde ein stures Nein entgegen gesetzt vom wenigstens R.V.M. – Da mußte ich mich oft mit einschalten, auch Günter, damit wir etwas erreichen Nahmen diese Zugsperren einen längeren Zeitraum ein? Ja, oft 4,6,8 Wochen 3 oder 4 Monate nicht? Nein, innerhalb von 3 od 4 Monate habe ich dann doch etwas bekommen aber nicht immer die volle Zahl der Züge – das kam vor – einmal erinnere ich mich, da bekam ich überhaupt nichts mehr und resignierte – gut, sagte ich mir, dann muß es Heydrich eben selber machen, und habe eine Vorlage gemacht, mit welchem Erfolg, daß weiß ich heute nicht mehr. Haben Sie eine Ahnung was für ein Durchschnitt von Sperren im Laufe eines Jahres verhängt worden, waren 1, oder 2 oder 5 oder 8 Sperren? Nein, einen Durchschnittssatz kann ich Ihnen nicht sagen. Mit Beginn des Rußlandfeldzuges, da war die Zeit des fast reibungslosen zur Verfügungstellung von rollenden Materials des R.V.A., die waren mehr negativ entschieden worden, solche Anfragen, als positiv Kann man sagen, daß jede größere Offensive für Ihr Amt eine Zugsperre bedeutete? Ja, das kann man sagen – was aber nicht ganz so heißen sollte, daß ich nicht doch ab und an 2 bis 3 Züge bekommen konnte. Sie werden vor der Westoffensive keine Züge bekommen haben Nein Sie werden als die Sache Norwegen, Dänemark anrollte auch keine bekommen habe Ja, auch Schwierigkeiten Also im Jahre 1940, weitgehenst im Jahre 1940 werden Sie keine Züge bekommen haben, also Mai, Juni, Juli, bis Abschluß des Frankreichfeldzuges? Nein Dann unmittelbar danach? So unmittelbar danach nicht – Es waren da noch die Verpflegungszüge, bis ich mich da einhackte und sagte, die Züge fahren voll hin, mit Verpflegungsnachschub, mit Munition und allen möglichen Geräten, und mit Soldaten,

Draft translation

or blocks/stoppages, there one could do nothing at all. One could only do one thing, keep pressing or pestering them until one had then obtained a few trains, which were only a fraction of what one needed. Did you in general also have to deal with such blocks? Yes,--that the Hstf. Novak can attest, how this little man was pressed by me, he was to procure transport trains, for I was after all also being pressed from above, and Novak was met with a stubborn No from the [HW: [DEL: [?at least?]]] R.V.M.--There I often had to intervene myself, Guenter too, so that we achieved something Did these train-blocks take up a longer period of time? Yes, often 4,6,8 weeks Not 3 or 4 months? No, within 3 or 4 months I did then after all get something but not always the full number of trains-----that happened---- once I remember, there I got nothing at all anymore and resigned--- good, I said to myself, then Heydrich must just do it himself, and made a submission/proposal, with what success, that I don't know anymore today. Do you have any idea what sort of average of blocks in the course of a year was imposed, were there 1, or 2 or 5 or 8 blocks? No, an average figure I cannot tell you. With the beginning of the Russia campaign, that was the time of the almost frictionless making-available [DEL: [?providing?]] [TS INS: of] rolling stock/material of the R.V.A., those were more negatively decided, such inquiries, than positively Can one say that every larger offensive meant a train-block for your office? Yes, one can say that--which however should not quite mean that I could not after all now and then get 2 to 3 trains. You will not have gotten trains before the Western offensive No You will, when the Norway, Denmark matter got rolling, also not have gotten any Yes, difficulties too So in the year 1940, largely in the year 1940 you will not have gotten trains, that is May, June, July, until the conclusion of the France campaign? No Then immediately after that? Not so immediately after that----There were still the provisioning trains then, until I hacked in there and said, the trains run there full, with provisioning-supply, with munition and all possible equipment, and with soldiers,

They must come back empty, surely. Yes, Novak then told me, this is how it is—he had heard it from Stange—they are loaded up again in Russia straight away. There was this business with honey: they had no containers, it stood there in bathtubs, and was then put into barrels and loaded aboard. From Russia the trains brought back all sorts of things, fodder grain and so on… They all came back loaded.

Questioner

But why would empty trains coming back from Russia interest you?

Eichmann

Well, I could have used them somewhere in the Reich where I had evacuation measures to carry out. Because evacuations within the Reich only went from some place or other to Auschwitz—or… I could have used them there…

Questioner

So now we have got well into 1940: the western campaign, then the preparations for the leap across to England, which are finally abandoned in September. So it is quite possible that you could run normally in September, October, November and December 1940. But you were running relatively little then, only out of the Reich.

Eichmann

Yes.

Questioner

Then at the beginning of 1941 you began transporting Jews from other countries too—but then in April 1941 came the Balkan campaign?

Eichmann

I do not think I really felt that one…

But I only rarely got anything after the beginning of the Russian campaign. For Operation Barbarossa, enormous quantities of ammunition and materiel were brought up to East Prussia months beforehand, into the forests… As far as I can remember, I got nothing at all then.

Questioner

Then you probably got nothing at all from May or June 1941 until after the first great double battles?

Eichmann

No—at least, I believe so.

Questioner

Did that last the whole of 1941, that you got no transports?

Eichmann

No, a whole year—no, I do not think so.

Questioner

So from May, possibly until the end of the year?

Eichmann

Yes, towards the end of the year something again now and then—that could well be.

Questioner

Then Frank says on 2 August 1943:

Questioner reads from Frank's diary

“Things are quite clear with us. If someone asks what will become of the NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers’ Party)—the NSDAP will certainly outlive the Jews. Here we began with three and a half million Jews; of them only a few … remain.”

Open page image and German
Page 582 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 582 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Die müssen doch leer zurück kommen – ja, sagte mir Novak dann, das ist so, er hatte es von Stange gehört, die werden gleich wieder in Rußland beladen und zwar war das so mit Honig, sie hatten keine Gefäße, der stand dort in Badewannen, wurden dann in Fässer verladen und aufgeladen – aus Rußland brachten die Züge alles mögliche mit an Futtergetreide usw. … die kamen, alle beladen zurück. Aber wieso konnte Sie interessieren, leer fahrende Züge die aus Rußland kommen? Nun, die hätte ich irgendwo im Reich ansetzen können, wo ich Evakuierungsmaßnahmen hatte – Denn die Evakuierungen die drehten sich doch im Reich nur von irgendeiner Stelle nach Auschwitz, – oder. … da hätte ich sie brauchen können… Jetzt sind wir also damit gekommen, tief ins Jahr 1940 herein, – Westfeldzug, dann waren die Vorbereitungen für den Sprung nach England, die werden dann definitiv aufgegeben im Sept., also ist es schon möglich, daß Sie Sept, Okt Nov Dez 1940 normal haben fahren können – Aber da fuhren Sie ja relativ wenig, nur aus dem Reich Ja Dann sind Sie Anfang 1941 dazu übergegangen, auch Juden aus anderen Ländern zu transportieren – da kam aber im April 1941 der Balkanfeldzug? Den glaube ich habe ich nicht recht gespürt… Aber ich habe nur selten etwas bekommen nach dem Beginn des Rußlandfeldzuges. Für das Unternehmen Barbarossa wurden ja gewaltige Munitions und Material-Sachen Monate vorher nach Ostpreußen rauf gebracht in die die Wälder… soviel ich mich erinnern kann, – da bekam ich überhaupt nichts. Dann haben Sie wahrscheinlich vom Mai-Juni 41 bis nach den ersten großen Doppelschlachten überhaupt nichts bekommen haben? Nein, ich glaube wenigstens. Hat das wohl das ganze Jahr 41 überdauert, daß Sie keine Transp. bekamen? Nein, ein ganzes Jahr, nein, das glaube ich nicht Also ab Mai evtl bis Ende des Jahres? Ja, gegen Ende des Jahres doch ab und zu mal wieder etwas, das könnte schon sein – Dann sagt Frank am 2 Aug. 43; Bei uns stehen die Dinge ganz klar, wenn da einer fragt, was wird mit der NSDAP werden – – die NSDAP wird die Juden bestimmt überleben – – hier haben wir mit 31/2 Mill Juden begonnen, von ihnen sind nur noch wenige vorhanden.

Draft translation

They must after all come back empty--yes, Novak told me then, that is how it is, he had heard it from Stange, they will immediately be loaded again in Russia, and indeed it was so with honey, they had no vessels, it stood there in bathtubs, were then loaded into barrels and loaded up--from Russia the trains brought back all sorts of things, fodder grain etc......they all came back loaded. But how could empty-running trains coming from Russia interest you? Well, those I could have put to use somewhere in the Reich, where I had evacuation measures--Because the evacuations [DEL: ixxRxixhx] they after all revolved within the Reich only from some place or other to Auschwitz, --or.....there I could have used them..... Now we have thus come, deep into the year 1940,-Western campaign, then there were the preparations for the leap over to England, those are then definitively abandoned in Sept., so it is indeed possible that you Sept, Oct Nov Dec 1940 could have run normally- But there you drove relatively little, only out of the Reich Yes Then at the beginning of 1941 you went over to also transporting Jews from other countries-but then in April 1941 came the Balkan campaign? That I believe I did not really feel.... But I received [DEL: nothing more] [HW: [?only somewhat less?]] after the [HW: ^] beginning of the Russian campaign. For the operation Barbarossa, tremendous ammunition and materiel things were after all brought up to East Prussia months beforehand into the forests......as far as I can remember, -- there I received nothing at all. Then you probably from May-June 41 until after the first great double battles received nothing at all? No, [HW: [?I believe at least.?]] Did this perhaps last out the whole year 41, that you received no transp.? No, a whole year, no, that I do not believe So from May possibly until the end of the year? Yes, toward the end of the year now and then something again after all, that could well be-- Then Frank says on 2 Aug 43; With us the things stand quite clearly, if someone there asks, what will become of the NSDAP--- the NSDAP will certainly outlive the Jews--here we began with 3 1/2 mill Jews, of them are only a few still present.

Everyone has, let us say, emigrated.

Questioner

That is a fine euphemism…

But on 2 August 1943 he states that three and a half million Jews…

Eichmann

That is a figure—he wanted to report a success.

Questioner

Then on 4 March 1944 he said in Krakow—the military situation was not very good by then:

Questioner reads from Frank's diary

“If some whiner here and there now mourns the Jews with tears in his eyes and says, ‘Is it not dreadful what has been done to the Jews?’, one must ask that person whether he is still of the same opinion today. If we had the two million Jews fully active today, and the few men and women in the country, we would no longer be in control of the situation. The Jews are a race that must be wiped out; wherever we catch even one, that is the end of him.”

Questioner

There he suddenly goes from three and a half million to two million.

Eichmann

That fits what I said before: reporting success, always inflating the figures.

Questioner

Both statements were made at a gathering of Reich speakers.

Eichmann

The figures could never be inflated enough…

Questioner

Then it says here, in connection with a picture of the main entrance to the ghetto in Krakow, that it was to become a model ghetto.

Eichmann

That was on 20 March 1941—the gas chambers at Belsec, Meidanek, Auschwitz and elsewhere were not yet operating. On 13 March 1943 the model ghetto was liquidated as well.

Questioner reads from the Ostland correspondence

On 31 October 1941 the Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories writes to the Reich Commissioner for Ostland in Riga and says:

Questioner

Can a Reich Commissioner for Ostland prohibit executions of Jews?

Eichmann

Yes, certainly. It is not clear to me who in the RSHA (Reich Security Main Office) could have said that. Second, the Reich Commissioner and the individual commissioners were responsible for the occupied Russian territories, and nobody could do as he pleased there without the district commissioner’s consent. If he entered a veto, nothing could be undertaken. This may have been the work of an individual task force (Einsatzgruppe) of the Security Police and the Security Service, or a task detachment (Einsatzkommando) subordinate to a task force.

And if they wanted to settle the matter locally in accordance with an order from the RF (Reichsführer-SS)—it must have been a general order—then that task-force chief will have complained in Berlin. But the task-force chief did not approach Section IV B 4. At most he approached Müller, though as a rule he approached the Chief of the Security Police and the Security Service.

Open page image and German
Page 583 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 583 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Alles ist, sagen wir einmal ausgewandert – Das ist eine schöne Umschreibung… Er gibt aber am 2 Aug. 43 an, daß 31/2 Mill Juden… Das ist eine Angabe, da wollte er Erfolg melden – Dann am 4. März 44 sagte er, in Krakau, daß war nun die militärische Lage nicht sehr schön… Wenn nun einer Wehleidiger da und dort mit Tränen in den Augen den Juden nachtrauert und sagt, ist das nicht grauenhaft, was den Juden gemacht worden ist, dann muß man den Betreffenden fragen ob er heute noch derselben Meinung ist. Wenn wir heute die 2 Mill Juden in voller Aktivität und die wenigen Männer und Frauen im Lande hätten, würden wir nicht mehr Herr der Lage sein. Die Juden sind eine Rasse die ausgetilgt werden muß, wo immer wir nur einen erwischen, geht es mit ihm zu Ende. Da ist er auf einmal von 31/2 Mill auf 2 Mill Das paßt dazu wie ich schon sagte, Erfolg melden, immer nach oben frisieren. Beide Sachen sind gesagt worden in einer Versammlung von Reichsredner. Es konnte nie genug nach oben frisiert werden… Dann wird hier gesagt anläßlich eines Bildes vom Haupteingang des Ghettos in Krakau, das sollte ein Musterghetto werden. – Das war am 20 März 1941 – die Gaskammern in Belsec, Meidanek, Auschwitz und andere funktionierten noch nicht. – Am 13 März 1943, wurde auch das Musterghetto liquidiert. – Der Reichsminister für die besetzten Ostgebiete richtet sich am 31. Okt. 41 Seite 190 – an den Reichskommissar Ostland in Riga und sagt; Kann ein Reichskommissar Ostland Judenexekutionen untersagen? Ja, freilich, – es ist mir nicht klar, wer das im RSHA gesagt haben könnte, 2. ist für die besetzten russ. Gebieten der Reichskommissar zuständig gewesen und die einzelnen Kommissare und es hat ja niemand in den Gebieten schalten und walten können, ohne daß der Gebietskommissar seine Zustimmung gab. Hat er ein Veto eingelegt, konnte ja nichts unternommen werden. Es kann sich hier um die Arbeit eine Einzeleinsatzgruppe gehandelt haben der Sipo und des SD oder ein Einsatzkommando, daß einer Einsatzgruppe unterstand. Und wenn die nun dort die Sache örtlich bereinigen wollten, gemäß eines RF Befehl, es muß ein allgemeiner Befehl gewesen sein, dann wird sich dieser Einsatzgruppenchef in Berlin beschwert haben. Der Einsatzgruppenchef ist aber nicht das Referat IV B 4 angelaufen, sondern allenfalls Müller angegangen, aber doch in der Regel den Chef der Sipo und des SD angegangen.

Draft translation

10 Volume 57 [HW: 585] Everything is, let us say, emigrated-- That is a nice paraphrase.... But on 2 Aug. 43 he states that 3 1/2 mill. Jews...... That is a statement, there he wanted to report success-- Then on 4 March 44 he said, in Krakow, that the military situation was now [TS INS: Whiners here and there] not very nice....When now someone with tears in his eyes mourns for the Jews and says, is it not dreadful, what has been done to the Jews, then one must ask the person concerned whether he is still of the same opinion today. If we today had the 2 mill. Jews in full activity and the few men and women in the country, we would no longer be master of the situation. The Jews are a race that must be exterminated, wherever we catch only one, it comes to an end with him. There he is suddenly from 3 1/2 mill. to 2 mill. That fits with it as I already said, report success, always dress up upward. Both things were said in an assembly of Reich speakers. It could never be dressed up upward enough..... [TS INS: Haupt] Then here it is said on the occasion of a picture of the entrance of the Ghetto in Krakow, that was supposed to become a model ghetto.-- That was on 20 March 1941--the gas chambers in Belzec, Majdanek, Auschwitz and others were not yet functioning.-- On 13 March 1943, the model ghetto was also liquidated.-- The Reich Minister for the occupied Eastern Territories addresses himself on 31 Oct. 41 Page 190- to the Reich Commissioner Ostland in Riga and says; Can a Reich Commissioner Ostland prohibit Jew-executions? Yes, indeed,--it is not clear to me, who in the RSHA could have said that, 2. for the occupied Russ. territories the Reich Commissioner was responsible and the individual commissioners and no one in the territories could manage and govern without the district commissioner giving his consent. If he lodged a veto, then nothing could be undertaken. It may here have been the work of a single Einsatzgruppe of the Sipo and the SD or an Einsatzkommando, that was subordinate to an Einsatzgruppe. And if they now wanted to settle the matter locally there, pursuant to an RF order, it must have been a general order, then this Einsatzgruppe chief will have complained in Berlin. But the Einsatzgruppe chief did not approach the section IV B 4, but at most approached Mueller, but as a rule approached the Chief of the Sipo and the SD.

He will have presented his difficulties and his successes there. So it may be correct that he approached the RSHA (Reich Security Main Office) with a complaint, and that the RSHA then expressed its surprise to the Reich Commissioner for the occupied Russian territories, or something along those lines… But this affair shows without doubt that, from a certain point at least, when the troops were no longer carrying out military operations and the civil administration took a greater role, people could no longer do as they pleased there—not even the Security Police, as is sometimes generally believed.

Questioner reads from the Ostland correspondence

Fifteen days later this commissioner replies:

Questioner

[Typed document heading: Reporting official: government councillor (Regierungsrat) Trampedach (?)]

Questioner reads from the Ostland correspondence

“I have prohibited the uncontrolled executions of Jews in Libau because the manner in which they were carried out could not be justified. Please inform me whether your inquiry is to be understood as a directive that all Jews in Ostland are to be liquidated. Is this to be done without regard to age, sex and economic considerations? Of course, cleansing Ostland of Jews is an urgent task, but the solution must be reconciled with the needs of the war economy. Neither from the orders on the Jewish question in the brown folder nor from other decrees have I so far been able to infer such a directive.”

Eichmann

The brown folder must be an order from the Reich Commissioner for the occupied Russian territories to his subordinate offices.

That has nothing to do with us. I know of no brown folder.

Questioner reads from the Ostland correspondence

Then a reply comes on 18 December 1941 from the Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories:

“The Jewish question should by now have been clarified through oral discussions. As a matter of principle, economic interests are to be disregarded in settling the problem. Otherwise, please discuss any questions that arise directly with the Higher SS and Police Leader.”

Questioner

So that is clear proof that between October and 18 December 1941 the RSHA pressed its case with Rosenberg, and that the Reich Commissioner for Ostland is instructed: the Higher SS and Police Leader is responsible here. Thus the Reich Commissioner’s executive authority is absolutely restricted, and that of the Higher SS and Police Leader is expanded instead.

Eichmann

No, the Higher SS and Police Leader is assigned to the Reich Commissioner. He cannot do anything without the approval of the Reich Commissioner for the occupied … territories. Krüger in the General Government could not do anything without an authorization from the Governor General.

Open page image and German
Page 584 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 584 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Hier wird er seine Schwierigkeiten und auch seine Erfolge vorgetragen haben. Und so mag das stimmen, daß er sich beschwerdeführend an das RSHA wendete, und das RSHA dann dem Reichskommissar für die besetzten russ. Gebiete eben seine Verwunderung zum Ausdruck brachte oder etwa so in dieser Form… Aber aus dieser Sache heraus, sieht man ohne Zweifel, daß, ab einem gewissen Zeitpunkt zumindestens, als die Truppen nicht mehr militärische Aktionen hatte, sondern als mehr die Zivilverwaltung eintrat, daß hier nicht mehr geschaltet und gewaltet werden konnte, auch nicht von seiten der Sipo, wie man das allgemein manchmal glaubt. – 15 Tage später antwortet dieser Kommissar; Berichterstatter Reg Rat Trampedach (?); Ich habe die wilden Judenexekutionen in Libau untersagt, weil sie in der Art ihrer Durchführung nicht zu verantworten waren. Ich bitte mich zu unterrichten, ob Ihre Anfrage als dahingehende Weisung aufzufassen ist, daß alle Juden im Ostland liquidiert werden sollen? Soll dieses ohne Rücksicht auf Alter, Geschlecht und Wirtschaft geschehen? Selbstverst. ist die Reinigung des Ostlands von Juden eine dringliche Aufgabe, aber die Lösung muß mit den Notwendigkeiten der Kriegswirtschaft in Einklang gebracht werden. – Weder aus den Anordnungen zur Judenfrage in der braunen Mappe, noch aus anderen Erlassen, konnte ich bisher eine solche Weisung entnehmen. Die braune Mappe muß eine Anordnung des Reichskommissars für die besetzten russ Gebiete an seine nachgeordneten Dienststellen sein Das hat mit uns nichts zu tun, ich kenne keine braune Mappe. Dann wird darauf geantwortet, am, 18 Dez 41 vom Reichsminist. f.d. besetzten Ostgebiete; In der Judenfrage dürfte inzwischen durch mündl. Besprechungen Klarheit geschaffen sein. Wirtschaftl. Belange sollen bei der Regelung des Problems grundsätzlich unberücksichtigt bleiben. Im übrigen wird gebeten, auftauchende Fragen unmittelbar mit dem Höh. SS und Pol. Führer zu bereden. – – – – – Das ist also ein klarer Beweis daß vom Okt bis zum 18 Dez 41 das RSHA bei Rosenberg vorgestoßen hat, und das der Reichskommissar Ostland angewiesen wird – da ist der Höh. SS und Pol. Führer zuständig. – Also wird hiermit die Exekutivgewalt des Reichskommissars absolut eingeschränkt und es wird die des Höh. SS und Pol Führer dafür erweitert. Nein, der Höh SS und Pol Führer ist dem Reichskommissar ja zugeteilt, – – – Er kann ja nichts machen ohne die Genehmigung des Reichskommissars für die besetzten Gebiete. – Es könnte ja Krüger im Gen Gov, nichts machen wenn er nicht den Ermächtigungsbescheid vom Gen, Governeur hatte.

Draft translation

11 Volume 67 [HW: 584] Here he will have presented his difficulties and also his successes. And so it may be correct that he turned complainingly to the RSHA, and the RSHA then expressed to the Reich Commissar for the occupied Russ[ian] territories precisely its astonishment or something roughly in this form....... But out of this matter, one sees without doubt that, from a certain point in time at least, when the troops no longer had military actions, but rather when more the civil administration set in, that here one could no longer operate and govern, not even on the part of the Sipo, as one generally sometimes believes.-- 15 days later this Commissar answers; Reporter Reg[ierungs]Rat Trampedach (?); I have forbidden the wild Jewish executions in Libau, because in the manner of their execution they were not to be justified. I ask to be in- formed whether your inquiry is to be understood as a directive to the effect that all Jews in the Ostland are to be liquidated? Should this happen without regard to age, sex and economy? Self-evid[ently] the cleansing of the Ostland of Jews is an urgent task, b[u]t the solution must be brought into harmony with the necessities of the war economy.-- Neither [DEL: xxx] [HW: from the] orders on the Jewish question in the brown folder, nor from other decrees, could I so far derive such a directive. The brown folder must be an order of the Reich Commissar for the oc- cupied Russ[ian] territories to his subordinate offices That has nothing to do with us, I know no brown folder. Then a reply is made to it, on, 18 Dec 41 by the Reich Minist[ry] f[or] the occupied Eastern territories; In the Jewish question clarity should meanwhile have been created through oral discussions. Economic interests are, in the regulation of the problem, to remain fundamentally disregarded. For the rest it is requested that arising questions be discussed directly with the Higher SS and Pol[ice] Leader.----- That is thus a clear proof that from Oct until 18 Dec 41 the RSHA had pushed forward at Rosenberg, and that the Reich Commissar Ostland is instructed--there the Higher SS and Pol[ice] Leader is competent.-- Thus herewith the executive power of the Reich Commissar is absolutely restricted and it is that of the Higher SS and Pol[ice] Leader for that expanded. No, the Higher SS and Pol[ice] Leader is indeed assigned to the Reich Commissar,--- He can indeed do nothing without the authorization of the Reich Commissar for the occupied territories.-Krüger in the Gen[eral] Gov[ernment] could indeed do nothing if he did not have the authorization decree from the Gen[eral] Governor.

Questioner reads from the Ostland correspondence

The Reich Commissioner for Ostland writes on 18 June 1943 to the Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories: “From General Commissioner Kube…”

Yes, the one who was murdered by a bomb that his Russian servant had placed under his bed.

Questioner reads from the Ostland correspondence

“The enclosed secret reports have come in from General Commissioner Kube and deserve particular attention. That the Jews are given special treatment needs no further discussion. But that things occur such as those described in the General Commissioner’s reports of 1 June scarcely seems credible. What is kafue compared with that? Just imagine such occurrences becoming known to the other side and being exploited there. Such propaganda would probably remain ineffective only because listeners and readers would not be prepared to believe it.”

Questioner

You know nothing about that?

Eichmann

No.

Questioner

Then here is a letter (Schreine).

Questioner reads from a document

Ambassador Abetz…

Questioner

[Quoted document signature: By order — Best.]

Eichmann

I know nothing about it, but I could roughly piece together how it may have happened. Either the Foreign Office acted on its own initiative and instructed Abetz, or the RSHA (Reich Security Main Office) approached the Foreign Office to say that the matter should now be examined in principle: under which … the removal of Jews (Entjudung) from France in the occupied territories could be carried out. The Foreign Office will then have written to Abetz and passed the points you have just raised to him for handling. Abetz, for his part, then passed the matter to the responsible office, the military administration in Paris.

Questioner

Then here is one addressed

Questioner reads from an RSHA letter to Dannecker

to the representative of the Chief of the Security Police and the Security Service for France and Belgium, Paris office, for the attention of Hstf. (Hauptsturmführer) Dannecker:

“Subject: Emigration of emigrants from Spain to America. Enclosed, for your information, are copies of two confidential reports from the German Consulate General in Casablanca that were transmitted to the Foreign Office—letters of 25 March and 8 June 1942. The conditions described in them are also to receive attention from your office and are to be countered as far as possible, so that emigration of this kind is prevented.”

Questioner

IV B 4 wrote that to Dannecker. Who signed it? Sur?

Eichmann

My government councillor (Regierungsrat). What can this be? There is no previous file on it; it is a new matter.

Open page image and German
Page 585 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 585 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Der Reichskommissar Ostland schreibt am 18 Juni 43; an den Reichsminist. für die besetzten Ostgebiete; Vom Generalkommissar Kube… Ja, der ermordet wurde – – durch eine Bombe die ihm sein russ dienstbarer Geist unters Bett gelegt hatte. Vom Generalkommissar Kube sind die beigefügten Geheimberichte eingegangen die ganz besondere Beachtung verdienen. – Daß die Juden sonder behandelt werden bedarf keiner weiteren Erörterung – daß aber Dinge vorkommen, wie sie in den Berichten des Generalkommissars vom 1. Juni, vorgetragen werden, erscheint kaum glaubhaft, – was ist dagegen Katyn – man stelle sich nur einmal vor, solche Vorkommnisse würden auf der Gegenseite bekannt und dort ausgeschlachtet. Wahrscheinlich würde eine solche Propaganda nur deshalb wirkungslos bleiben, weil Hörer und Leser nicht bereit wären, derselben Glauben zu schenken. Davon haben Sie keine Ahnung? Nein Dann ist hier ein Schreiben; Seite 193 Der Botschafter Abbets… Im Auftrag – – – – Best Bekannt ist mir nichts davon, aber ich könnte mir ungefähr zusammenreimen wie es gewesen sein mag – – – Entweder hat das ausw. Amt von sich aus geschaltet und Abbets angewiesen, oder das RSHA ist an das Ausw. Amt herangetreten, daß nun mehr in grundsätzlicher Hinsicht die Sache zu beleuchten sei, nach welchen die Entjudung Frankreichs in den besetzten Gebieten durchgeführt werden könne. Daraufhin wird das ausw. Amt Abbets angeschrieben haben und wird ihm diese Punkte, die Sie eben anzogen, zur Bearbeitung übertragen haben. – Seinerseits hat nun Abbets die Sache weitergegeben an die zuständige Stelle, an die Militärverwaltung in Paris. Dann ist hier an den Beauftragten des Chef der Sipo und SD für Frankreich und Belgien, Dienststelle Paris, zu Händen, Hstf. Dannecker; Betr; Emigrantenauswanderung von Spanien nach Amerika Anliegend werden abschriftlich zwei dem ausw. Amt übermittelte vertrauliche Berichte des deutschen Generalkonsulats in Casablanca – Schreiben vom 25.3. und 8.6. 42 – zur Kenntnisnahme übersandt. Den darin geschilderten Zuständen ist auch von dort aus, Beachtung zu zuwenden und im Rahmen des möglichen entgegen zu treten. Damit eine derartige Auswanderung unterbunden wird. Das hat IVB 4 geschrieben an Dannecker, war hat es unterschrieben? Sur? mein Reg Rat. – – Was kann das nun sein, es ist ohne Vorgang, es ist eine neue Sache.

Draft translation

12 Volume 57 [HW: 197] The Reich Commissioner Ostland writes on 18 June 43; to the Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories; From the General Commissioner Kube.. Yes, the one who was murdered---by a bomb that his Russian menial spirit had placed under his bed. From the General Commissioner Kube the enclosed secret reports have arrived which deserve quite special attention.- That the Jews are treated specially requires no further discussion--but that things occur, such as are presented in the reports of the General Commissioner of 1 June, appears scarcely credible,--what against it is kafue(?) [HW: Katyn] -one need only imagine, such occurrences would become known on the opposing side and there be exploited. Probably such propaganda would remain ineffective only for the reason, because listeners and readers would not be prepared to lend it belief. Of this you have no idea? No Then here is a shrine [Schreine]; Page 193 The Ambassador Abbets......... By order ---- Best Nothing of this is known to me, but I could roughly piece together how it may have been--- Either the Foreign Office acted on its own initiative and instructed Abbets, or the RSHA approached the Foreign Office, that now more in a fundamental respect the matter was to be illuminated, according to which the de-Jewification of France in the occupied ter- ritories could be carried out. Thereupon the Foreign Office will have written to Abbets and will have transferred to him these points, which you just drew upon, for processing.-For his part Abbets has now passed the matter on to the competent office, to the Military Administration in Paris. Then here to the Deputy [DEL: and] [TS INS: of the] Chief of the Sipo and SD for France and Belgium, Office Paris, to the attention of, Hstf. Dannecker; Re; Emigrant emigration from Spain to America Enclosed are transmitted as copies two confidential reports conveyed to the Foreign Office of the German Consulate General in Casablanca--letters of 25.3. and 8.6. 42- uur [for] information sent. To the conditions described therein attention is also to be turned from there and within the scope of the possible to be countered. So that such an emigration is prevented. That was written by IVB 4 to Dannecker, who signed it? Sur? my Reg[ierungs]rat.---What can this now be, it is without precedent, it is a new matter.

There can be two explanations. First, emigration was forbidden; or second, it was a matter of property rights—the Jews were carrying a great deal of property with them on this occasion. It strikes me as odd that Sur handled the matter and signs it.

Questioner

What interests me is this: basically you did not care how the Jews got away.

Eichmann

At what time?

Questioner

On 10 July 1942.

Eichmann

But I had the RF’s (Reichsführer-SS’s) order forbidding emigration. At that time it had not yet been relaxed. That came only later, as compensation deals with the Jews became increasingly widespread. At the beginning of the Russian campaign the RF (Reichsführer-SS) had issued a rigid ban on emigration, and it was rigidly observed… This date seems a little too early to me.

Questioner

Who is that?

Eichmann

That is the certification stamp of my authority—the RSHA (Reich Security Main Office) within the RMI (Reich Ministry of the Interior)—then the state emblem and beneath it “Chief of the Security Police and the Security Service.” It is the certification stamp of this letter, which was certified here by an office clerk, nothing more.

Questioner

Can you read the signature?

Eichmann

Not properly. In any case, one of my police employees.

Questioner

What does “By order—Sur ” mean? On your behalf?

Eichmann

No, on behalf of the RSHA.

Questioner

Do you not know what numbers were involved in the emigration of Jews to Casablanca and so on?

Eichmann

No, there can only have been very few. It is not very significant and can be checked at any time. Those were small matters.

Questioner

But how so? There are tremendously many—thousands upon thousands…

Eichmann

But this is about Jews of Spanish nationality, is it not? How so?

Questioner

No—the emigration through Spain to America…

Eichmann

That is something else… Yes, that is illegal emigration, that is fleeing. As I said, in every country where measures began, everyone immediately fled across the border away from the official crossing points. Yes, those are enormous numbers.

Questioner

Do you know any figures, then?

Eichmann

Yes, as far as I know, the statistician who worked with me made an approximate calculation of illegal emigration, and it was a fixed item in our calculations.

Open page image and German
Page 586 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 586 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Es kann zwei Dinge haben; 1. die Auswanderung war verboten – oder 2. es war eine vermögensrechtliche Angelegenheit, daß die Juden bei dieser Gelegenheit sehr viel vermögensrechtl. Sachen mitschleppten – – – weil es mir merkwürdig ist, daß Sur die Sache behandelt hat und unterschreibt. Was mich interessiert – im Grunde genommen war es Ihnen doch egal wie die Juden wegkamen – – – Um welche Zeit? Am 10 Juli 1942 – Ich hatte doch den Befehl des RF Auswanderung verboten, um diese Zeit war er ja noch nicht gelockert, das kam doch erst später, als im zunehmenden Maße die Compensationsgeschäfte überhaupt nahmen mit den Juden. Mit Beginn des Rußlandfeldzuges hatte der RF ein stures Auswanderungsverbot erlassen, und es wurde auch stur eingehalten… dieses Datum erscheint mir ein bischen verfrüht. Wer ist das? Das ist der Beglaubigungsstempel meiner Behörde – des RSHA im RMI – dann Hoheitszeichen und darunter Chef der Sipo und SD. Das ist der Beglaubigungsstempel dieses Schreibens der von einer Kanzleiangestellte hier beglaubigt worden ist, weiter nichts. Können Sie die Unterschrift lesen? Nicht richtig, jedenfalls einer meiner Polizeiangestellten – Was heißt im Auftrag Sur? in Ihrem Auftrag? Nein, im Auftrag des RSHA Ist Ihnen nicht bekannt um wieviel Zahlen es sich gehandelt hat bei der Auswanderung von Juden nach Casablanca usw…? Nein, das können nur ganz wenige gewesen sein, das ist nicht sehr bedeutsam und ist auch jeder Zeit nachzuweisen. Das sind kleine Sachen gewesen. Aber wieso, es sind unheimlich viele, tausend und abertausend… Aber es dreht sich doch um Juden spanischer Staatsangeh, wieso?… Nein – – – – die Auswanderung über Spanien nach Amerika… Das ist was anderes… ja, das ist die illegale Auswanderung, das ist das Türmen, wie ich schon sagte, als in jedem land indem nun Maßnahmen anfingen türmte alles sofort über die grüne Grenze – – – – ja, das sind gewaltige Summen. Ist Ihnen denn nun zahlenmäßig etwas bekannt? Ja, soviel ich weiß hat der Statistiker der bei mir gearbeitet hat so ungefähr errechnet, die illegale Abwanderung und die war doch ein feststehender Posten gewesen in unserer Rechnung.

Draft translation

Band 57 It can be one of two things; 1. emigration was forbidden--or 2. it was a property-law matter, that the Jews on this occasion dragged along very many property-law things---because it is strange to me that Sur handled the matter and signs. What interests me--basically it was all the same to you anyway how the Jews got away--- Around what time? On 10 July 1942-- But I had the order of the RF [Reichsführer] emigration forbidden, around this time it was indeed not yet relaxed, that only came later, when to an increasing degree the compensation deals [Conyensationsgeschaefte] were taken up at all with the Jews. With the beginning of the Russian campaign the RF had issued a stubborn [stur02] emigration ban, and it was also stubbornly adhered to..... this date seems to me a bit premature [verfrücht]. Who is that? That is the authentication stamp of my authority--of the RSHA in the RMI--then sovereign emblem and beneath it Chief of the Sipo and SD. That is the authentication stamp XX of this letter which has been authenticated here by an office clerk, nothing further. Can you read the signature? Not properly, in any case one of my police employees-- What does "by order [im Auftrag] Sur" mean? By your order? No, by order of the RSHA Is it not known to you what numbers were involved in the emigration of Jews to Casablanca etc...? No, that can only have been very few, that is not very significant and is also traceable at any time. Those were small matters. But how, there are terribly many, thousand and abertausend [thousand upon thousand]...... But it is about Jews of Spanish nationality, how?... No---- the emigration via Spain to America....... That is something else......yes, that is the illegal emigration, that is the bolting [Tuermen], as I already said, when in every country in which measures now began everything immediately bolted over the green border [i.e. across the frontier]-----yes, those are enormous sums. Is anything then now known to you numerically? Yes, as far as I know the statistician who worked with me calculated approximately, the illegal migration and it was indeed a fixed item in our accounting.

Questioner

But that doesn't come out of his report…

Did you study it carefully?

Didn't you have any definite figures?

Of course we had figures on illegal emigration.

Questioner

Yes, but I mean here specifically…

Eichmann

There were thousands, tens of thousands—not Jews now—who came from Holland, Belgium and France, specifically through unoccupied France, to Spain and Portugal and to North Africa. Some then went on to England, America and so on. So if that was the case with people who were politically opposed to the Germans, and there were perhaps ten thousand of them, then there is no need to be surprised that there were also ten thousand, perhaps even a hundred thousand Jews—

Questioner

Yes, that's right too…

Eichmann

Because I know from personal experience: Jews I knew who were in the cinema business, and they simply went to unoccupied France. That was very early on, in 1941…

I already told you about Hungary. I did nothing to stop this illegal emigration. The people who got away through Romania were legion…

Questioner

But wasn't some figure available from that time?

Eichmann

We estimated it. Didn't I include it in that statistical account I drew up? Somewhere I know the estimated number of those who emigrated illegally. That estimate wasn't simply a rough guess; it was calculated somehow. It was a very high figure, the illegal emigration overseas—

Questioner

In figures?

Eichmann

Don't you have my handwritten report to hand, with the tabulation?

Now this number of those who emigrated illegally—a; with the intention of remaining on the European mainland, and those who left for land overseas—still keeps us very busy as we compile the statistics. We will come to it automatically…

Questioner

Have you ever heard of an institution called Hadamar?

Eichmann

No.

Questioner

In May 1943 people of mixed ancestry (Mischlinge), half-Jews, all of them children, are said to have been housed there.

Open page image and German
Page 587 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 587 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Aber das geht aus seinem Bericht nicht hervor… Haben Sie ihn denn gut studiert? Haben Sie denn keine bestimmten Ziffern gehabt? Freilich haben wir Ziffern gehabt über die illegale Abwanderung Ja, aber ich meine nun hier speziell… Es sind tausende, es sind zehntausende gewesen, jetzt keine Juden, die aus Holland Belgien, Frankreich, gerade durch das unbesetzte Frankreich, nach Spanien und nach Portugal gekommen sind und nach Nordafrika… Ein Teil ist dann nach England, nach Amerika usw… also wenn das schon der Fall war bei Leuten die politisch gegen die Deutschen eingestellt waren und das sind vielleicht zehntausend, dann braucht man sich doch gar nicht zu wundern, daß es auch zehntausend, vielleicht sogar hunderttausend Juden gewesen sind – Ja, das stimmt doch auch… denn ich weiß aus persönlicher Erfahrung, Juden die ich gekannt habe, die im Kinobetrieb drin saßen und die sind einfach nach dem unbesetzten Frankreich, das ist schon sehr früh gewesen, 1941,… Ich sagte Ihnen ja schon von Ungarn, ich habe nichts dagegen getan, um diese illegale Abwanderung zu unterbinden, – was da über Rumänien abgehauen ist das ist ja Legion… Aber hat aus der damaligen Zeit nicht irgendeine Ziffer vorgelegen? Wir haben sie geschätzt, – habe ich sie denn nicht in die eine Sache, die ich statistisch aufstellte nicht mit herein genommen? – Irgendwo ist mir bekannt die geschätzte Zahl der illegal Abgewanderten… Diese Schätzungszahl wurde nicht so ohne weiteres nur über den Daumen gepeilt, die wurde errechnet irgendwie – – es war eine sehr hohe Zahl gewesen, die illegale Abwanderung nach Übersee – – – Ziffernmäßig??? Haben Sie nicht meinen handschriftlichen Bericht zur Hand mit der Aufstellung? Nun diese Zahl der illegal Abgewanderten, a; mit dem Ziel des Verbleibs auf dem europäischen Festland und der abgesprungenen nach dem überseeischen Festland, die beschäftigt uns ja noch sehr rege, bei der Zusammenstellung der Statistik – wir kommen automatisch noch darauf… Haben Sie irgendwann einmal gehört von einer Anstalt Hadamar? Nein, Im Mai 1943 sollen dort Mischlinge, Halbjuden, alles Kinder untergebracht worden sein.

Draft translation

14 Volume 57 [HW: 587] But that does not emerge from his report.... Did you then study it well? Did you then have no definite figures? Certainly we had figures about the ill egal emigration Yes, but I mean now here specifically..... There were thousands, there were tens of thousands, now not Jews, who from Holland Belgium, France, precisely through unoccupied France, to Spain and to Portugal came and to North Africa...... A part then went to England, to America etc..... so if that was already the case with people who were politically disposed against the Germans and those are perhaps ten thousand, then one need not be surprised at all that it was also ten thousand, perhaps even a hundred thousand Jews-- Yes, that is also correct..... for I know from personal experience, Jews whom I have kn own, who were [HW: 2 2] in the cinema business and they simply [went] to unoccupied France, that was already very early, 1941,.. I already told you about Hungary, I did nothing against it, to prevent this illegal emigration,--what fled out there via Romania that is [DEL: [?a?]] legion..... But was there not some figure available from that time then? We estimated them, --did I then not include them in the one thing, which I set up statistically?-- Somewhere is known to me the estimated number of the illegally emigrated... This estimation- number was not just simply guessed off the cuff, it was calculated somehow---it had been a very high number, the illegal emi- gration overseas --- In figures??? Do you not have my handwritten report to hand with the tabulation? Now this number of the illegally emigrated, a; with the aim of remaining on the European mainland and of those who jumped off to the overseas mainland, that still occupies us very actively, in the compilation of the statistics-- we come to it automatically still.... Have you ever at some point heard of an institution Hadamar? No, In May 1943 there are supposed to have been housed there Mischlinge, half-Jews, all children .

Where, in which country? Who writes that?

Questioner

A head nurse.

Questioner reads from a head nurse's statement

Almost all the children were healthy; only a few had skin rashes. The children were all killed by injections.

Unknown speaker

Jews? Half-Jews?

Eichmann

That I don't know…

Open page image and German
Page 588 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 588 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Wo, in welchem Land? Wer schreibt das? Eine Oberschwester – fast alle Kinder waren gesund, nur einige hatten Hautausschläge, die Kinder wurden alle durch Injektionen getötet. Juden? Halbjuden? – – – – – Das weiß ich nicht…

Draft translation

13 Volume 57 [HW: 578] Where, in which country? Who writes that? A head nurse--almost all children were healthy, only some had skin rashes, the children were all killed by injections. Jews? Half-Jews? ----- That I do not know.. 14 Volume 57

No interview speech on this page.

Open page image and German
Page 589 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 589 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Bitte nachzusuchen zeitlicher Zusammenhang zwischen Evakuierung Norwegen und Evakuierung Dänemark Calvinisch an H.B. Helvetische Bekenntniss.

Draft translation

Band [Tape/Volume] 58 Please to investigate temporal connection between evacuation Norway and evacuation Denmark [HW: Calvinist to H.B.] [HW: / Helvetic Confession.] [HW: S] [HW: 589]

When I came back from Hungary, around that time, I found a letter from the Personnel Main Office—or was it from the Leadership Main Office? In any case, not from the RSHA (Reich Security Main Office). So it probably came from the Personnel Main Office, didn't it…

So this letter was there. It had been sent to all SS officers, and enclosed were five or six or eight large-format sheets with preprinted questions. There may have been about fifty to sixty questions. The letter said that the officer addressed would probably be astonished to be approached with such a matter at the height of the war, at a time when, by order of the Reich leadership, only work essential to the war was really to be done and everything else had to be deferred until after the end of the war. But it went on to say that the RF (Reichsführer-SS) had satisfied himself of its enormous importance, and that, for reasons listed individually which I can no longer remember today, it was absolutely essential for each officer addressed to answer these questions precisely and return them through official channels by the specified date.

Like me, many other SS officers probably threw the letter into a corner of their desks in their first surge of anger on receiving it. But one was so accustomed to orders being orders, especially in a matter with a deadline, that after a few days one took the stuff out again and set about filling it in.

The questionnaire set out everything from birth onward: the parents' standing, number of children, married, family, dates of promotion, award of the RF's (Reichsführer-SS's) death's-head ring, dagger, SS sword, work assignments, postings, foreign travel. In short, everything was listed in this questionnaire, so that the SS man filling it in stood there, from the cradle to the date of completion, naked and bare, so to speak…

Questioner

But how does one explain all that?

Eichmann

Even then one thought about how strange the matter was, but there was hardly any time, and besides, it came from one's own organization. Afterwards, though, when I heard that the enemy side was thoroughly and accurately informed about the entire life of every individual SS officer, I began to have misgivings. I said to myself that in drawing up the questionnaire, without a doubt—the opposite would first have to be proved, but it could hardly be proved—that here, in drawing up the questionnaire, the SS office that drew it up, I am sorry to have to say it, had without a doubt allowed itself to be guided by enemy hands.

Open page image and German
Page 590 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 590 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Als ich aus Ungarn zurückkam, um diese Zeit, fand ich ein Schreiben des Personal HA vor oder war es vom Führungs HA gewesen, jedenfalls nicht vom RSHA, es kam also wohl vom Personal HA, nicht wahr… Also dieses Schreiben lag nun vor, es war an alle SS Führer ausgeschickt worden, und als Anlage waren 5 od 6 od 8 Bogen in Großformat mit vorgedruckten Fragen, es können ungefähr 50 bis 60 Fragen gewesen sein. Und hier in diesem Schreiben hieß es nun, daß der angesprochene Führer wohl erstaunt sei, um diese Zeit des hohen Krieges, mit einer solchen Sache angegangen zu werden, in einem Zeitpunkt wo doch laut Befehl der Reichsführung wirklich nur kriegswichtige Arbeiten zu absolvieren sind und alles andere bis nach Kriegsende hinten angestellt zu bleiben hat – Aber es hieß dann weiter, der RF habe sich von der ungeheuren Wichtigkeit überzeugt und aus Gründen die nun einzeln angeführt worden sind, die mir heute aber nicht mehr erinnerl. sind, ist es unumgänglich wichtig, daß der einzelne angesprochene Führer diese Fragen genau beantwortet und sie zu einem Zeitpunkt, der angegeben war, auf dem Dienstweg zurück schickt. Mit mir werden wohl viele andere SS Führer bei Erhalt dieses Schreibens, dieses erst einmal in der ersten Aufwallung des Zornes in eine Schreibtischecke hineingefeuert haben, aber man war so gewöhnt, daß Befehl, Befehl ist noch dazu bei einer terminisierten Angelegenheit, daß man sich dann diesen Kram nach einigen Tagen hervorhalte und sich dann an die Ausfüllung machte. Auf diesem Fragebogen war nun alles ausgeführt, von der Geburt an, Stand der Eltern, Kinderanzahl, verheiratet, Familien, Beförderungsdaten, Verleihung des Totenkopfringes des RF, Dolch, SS Degen, Arbeitsverwendung, Kommandierungen Auslandsreisen – kurz und gut, es war in diesem Fragebogen alles angeführt, sodaß der ausfüllende SS Mann von der Wiege bis zum Datum der Ausfüllung quasi nackt und bloß dastand… Aber wie erklärt man sich das nun alles… Schon damals dachte man über die Merkwürdigkeit der Sache nach, – aber es blieb einem ja kaum Zeit und außerdem es kam ja von dem eigenen Verband – – – – nachher allerdings dachte ich, als ich hörte, daß die Feindseite über das gesamte Leben jedes einzelnen SS Führers, bestens und wahrheitsgemäß unterrichtet war, da kamen mir Bedenken und ich sagte mir, daß hier bei der Erstellung des Fragebogens sich zweifelsohne, das Gegenteil müßte erst bewiesen werden, aber man kann es wohl kaum beweisen, daß hier, bei Aufstellung des Fragebogens sich hier die aufstellende Dienststelle der SS, ich muß es leider sagen, sich zweifelsohne von Feindhand hat leiten lassen.

Draft translation

Band 58 [HW: 590] When I came back from Hungary, around this time, I found a letter from the Personnel Head Office [Personal HA], or was it from the Leadership Head Office [Fuehrungs HA], in any case not from the RSHA, so it probably came from the Personnel HA, is that not so..... So this letter now lay before [me], it had been sent out to all SS leaders [officers], and as an enclosure there were 5 or 6 or 8 sheets in large format with pre-printed questions, they may have been about 50 to 60 questions. And here in this letter it now said that the leader [officer] addressed would probably be astonished, at this time of the high [intense] war, to be approached with such a matter, at a point in time when, according to the order of the Reich Leadership, really only work important to the war is to be carried out and everything else is to remain deferred [put at the back] until after the end of the war--- But it then said further, the RF [Reichsfuehrer] had convinced himself of the tremendous importance and for reasons which have now been listed individually, but which I can no longer remember today, it is unavoidably important that the individual leader [officer] addressed answer these questions exactly and send them back through official channels at a point in time which was given. Along with me many other SS leaders [officers] will probably, upon receipt of this letter, have first of all, in the first surge of anger, fired this into a corner of a desk, but one was so accustomed [to the fact] that order is order, moreover in a matter set to a deadline, that one then took this stuff back out after a few days and set about filling it in. On this questionnaire everything was now laid out, from birth onward, standing [status] of the parents, number of children, married, families [family details], promotion dates, award of the Death's-Head Ring of the RF, dagger, SS sword, work employment [assignment], commandeerings [postings], foreign travels--in short and good [in short], everything was listed in this questionnaire, so that the SS man filling it out stood there, from the cradle to the date of filling out, so to speak naked and bare..... But how does one now explain all this to oneself..... Already at that time one thought about the strangeness of the matter,--but one hardly had any time and besides it came from one's own organization [unit]----afterwards, however, I thought, when I heard that the enemy side was informed in the best and most truthful way about the entire life of each individual SS leader [officer], then misgivings came to me and I said to myself that here, in the preparation of the questionnaire, without doubt—the opposite would first have to be proven, but one can hardly prove it—that here, in the drawing up of the questionnaire, the drawing-up office [Dienststelle] of the SS, I must unfortunately say it, without doubt let itself be guided by enemy hand.

There is no other explanation, because we had also deferred quite different, very important things in accordance with the order to put off everything not essential to the war. This was a waste of paper, a waste of the personnel who had to process the material, and theft of every SS officer's time.

Questioner

You mean that a more senior officer then, to the RF (Reichsführer-SS)…

Eichmann

It can only have happened that someone of high rank in the Reich leadership made this matter seem plausible to the RF (Reichsführer-SS). How, I don't know—perhaps by saying that the SS officers' files had been lost in a bombing raid, and so on. And the RF (Reichsführer-SS) then let himself be lulled. I cannot imagine it any other way, however hard I try. And I tell you quite openly and freely, as a personal supposition of mine: when I heard that all this had fallen so intact into enemy hands, I thought to myself that one really ought to investigate whether the tattooing of SS men's blood groups had not also somehow been suggested as part of a plan prepared long in advance.

Unknown speaker

I would doubt that, although I myself know from my own experience that in April 1945 it was proposed to the RF (Reichsführer-SS) that all 100,000 concentration camp inmates be tattooed in a rapid operation, to create a certain confusion, so that not every SS man could immediately be recognized by it. And that the RF (Reichsführer-SS) personally rejected it—he did not want to use tricks of that kind.

[Comments about these questionnaires; overlapping talk.]

[Measures against the Jews in Belgium.]

Questioner reads from a book

On 10 May 1940, that is, when the German Wehrmacht occupied Belgium, there were 85,000 Jews living in Belgium, most of them in Antwerp or Brussels. On 28 October the occupying troops ordered the registration of the Jews. Do you remember that?

Eichmann

No, but that is probably how it was done.

Questioner

Are you aware that no more than 42,000 Jews could be ascertained, although there were 85,000 Jews in Belgium?

Eichmann

Because they had fled. I wanted to tell you at the outset: we had no success in Belgium.

Questioner

Yes, that may well be right, they had fled. But it says here that a large proportion managed to evade registration—

Open page image and German
Page 591 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 591 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Es gibt nichts anderes, denn wir haben ganz anderes, sehr wichtige Dinge, gemäß dem Befehl, alles nichts kriegswichtig hinten anzustellen, auch hinten angestellt – Das war Papierverschwendung, das war Verschwendung von Personal die ja die Sachen nun bearbeiten mußten – und es war ein Diebstahl an der Zeit eines jeden SS Führers. – Sie meinen, daß nun ein höherer Führer nun dem RF…… Nur so kann es gewesen sein, daß ein hoher Dienstgrad der Reichsführung dem RF diese Sache plausible gemacht hat, wie weiß ich nicht, – – – vielleicht daß die Akten der SS Führer durch Bombenangriff verloren gegangen seien, etc. und der RF hat sich dann einlullen lassen… ich kann es mir beim besten Willen nicht anders vorstellen – und ich sage Ihnen ganz offen und frei, als persönliche Annahme von mir – – – als ich das hörte, daß das alles so wohlbehalten dem Feind in die Hände gefallen sei, da dachte ich in meinem Sinn, man mußte doch einmal nachforschen, ob nicht auch die Tätovierung der Blutgruppe der SS Leute, von langer Hand vorbereitet, nicht irgendwie suggeriert worden ist. – – Das möchte ich bezweifeln, obwohl ich selber aus eigener Erfahrung weiß, daß dem RF im April 1945 vorgeschlagen wurde, in einer Schnellaktion sämtl. 100 000 KZ Insassen tätovieren zu lassen, um damit eine gewisse Verwirrung zu erreichen, damit nicht jeder SS Mann sofort daran wiedererkannt werden kann. Und das der RF persönlich das abgelehnt hat – er wollte sich derartigen Triks nicht bedienen (Kommentare, durcheinander gesprochen bzgl dieser Fragebogen – – –) Maßnahmen gegen die Juden in Belgien; Am 10 Mai 1940, d.h. also bei der Besetzung Belgiens, durch die deutsche Wehrmacht, lebten in Belgien 85 000 Juden. Und die meisten in den Städten Antwerpen oder Brüssel, am 28. Okt. verfügten die Besatzungstruppen die Regist der Juden. Ist Ihnen das erinnerlich Nein – – – aber es wird so gemacht worden sein. Ist Ihnen bekannt, daß eine höhere Zahl wie 42 000 Juden nicht festzustellen war, obwohl 85 000 Juden in Belgien waren. Weil sie geflüchtet sind – – – – ich wollte Ihnen schon zu Anfang sagen, in Belgien haben wir keinen Erfolg gehabt. Ja, das mag wohl stimmen, sie sind geflüchtet – – – aber es heißt hier, daß es einem Großteil gelang, sich der Regist. zu entziehen –

Draft translation

2 Volume 58 [HW: 581] There is nothing else, for we have quite other, very important things, in accordance with the order, to put everything not important to the war effort at the back, [these] were also put at the back --That was a waste of paper, that was a waste of personnel who now had to work on the matters--and it was a theft of the time of every SS leader.- You mean that now a higher leader now [made this plausible] to the RF...... Only so can it have been, that a high rank of the Reich leadership made this matter plausible to the RF, how I do not know,---perhaps that the files of the SS leaders had been lost through a bombing raid, etc. and the RF then let himself be lulled..... I cannot with the best will imagine it otherwise--and I tell you quite openly and freely, as a personal assumption of mine--- when I heard that, that it had all fallen so well-preserved into the enemy's hands, then I thought in my mind, one really ought to investigate once whether the tattooing of the blood group of the SS men, prepared by [DEL: a] [HW: long] hand, had not somehow been suggested.-- That I would like to doubt, although I myself know from my own experience that in April 1945 it was proposed to the RF, in a swift action, to have all 100,000 concentration camp inmates tattooed, in order thereby to achieve a certain confusion, so that not every SS man could be immediately recognized again by it. And that the RF personally rejected this--he did not want to make use of such tricks (Comments, spoken confusedly/over one another regarding these questionnaires---) ------- Measures against the Jews in Belgium; On 10 May 1940, i.e. thus at the occupation of Belgium by the German Wehrmacht, there lived in Belgium 85,000 Jews. And most in the cities of Antwerp or Brussels, on 28 Oct. the occupation troops ordered the registr[ation] of the Jews. Is that recollectable to you [do you recall that] No--- but it will have been done so. Is it known to you that a higher number than 42,000 Jews could not be ascertained, although there were 85,000 Jews in Belgium. Because they fled---- I wanted to tell you already at the beginning, in Belgium we had no success. Yes, that may well be correct, they fled--- but it says here that a large part managed to evade the registr[ation] -

Questioner reads from a book

Now the military governor, General von Falkenhausen, and the civil governor, Ekhardt Reeder, play a major role.

Yes, I know. I had to write to him a few times on Heydrich's instructions.

Questioner

Falkenhausen is well known, of course—a 20 July man—

Eichmann

Yes.

Questioner reads from a book

Reeder always tried to hold his own against the interventions of the Sipo (Security Police).

Questioner

Do you remember any specific cases?

Eichmann

No, not directly. I can only say that because, on Heydrich's instructions, I had to prepare a draft letter to Reeder for him several times, in which he tried in some way to clarify the complaints he heard from the local Sipo (Security Police) offices in Belgium and advance the Sipo's (Security Police's) interests.

Questioner

Do you remember that Reeder and Falkenhausen always refused to introduce the Jewish star?

Eichmann

I can't recall that detail, but it would be entirely possible.

Questioner reads from a book

Reeder and Falkenhausen pursued a policy aimed at winning over Belgian public opinion, but they had no scruples about giving up Jewish foreigners and Jewish refugees. And so Belgium is said to have been the first occupied western country from which Jewish refugees were deported: 82 Polish Jewish families were repatriated from Antwerp, and later a much larger number of Jews originating from Poland, in February and March 1942, to be employed in the textile industry of Mo….

Eichmann

I don't know about that either, but it would certainly be possible…

Questioner

Do you remember what the Jewish camp in Belgium was called? Marling?

Eichmann

No, I don't recall it.

Questioner reads from a book

The deportation trains that left Marlin for Auschwitz from 4 August 1942 were intended for the mass deportation of Jews regardless of citizenship. And this was devised by Eichmann's office.

Eichmann

I can't believe that…

Questioner reads from a book

Which even complained later to the Foreign Office that its orders were not being carried out properly. Consequently Luther and Rademacher initialled a sharp protest on 2 December, addressed to Werner von Bargen, the Foreign Office representative with Falkenhausen, concerning the failure to include the native Belgian Jews.

Eichmann

Yes, now I understand. I had opposed their sending me foreigners and no Belgian Jews. Because Jews of foreign citizenship had, under the—

Open page image and German
Page 592 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 592 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Nun spielt eine große Rolle der Militärgouverneur, General von Falkenhausen und der Zivilgouverneur, Ekhardt Reeder. Ja, das weiß ich, an den mußte ich ein paar mal schreiben im Auftrag von Heydrich. Falkenhausen ist ja bekannt, 20. Juli Mann – – – Ja, Reeder hat immer versucht, sich gegen die Eingriffe der Sipo zu behaupten, haben Sie irgendwelche konkrete Fälle in Erinnerung? Nein, nicht direkt, ich kann das nur deswegen sagen, weil ich einige Male im Auftrag von Heydrich ihm einen Briefentwurf für Reeder fertig machen mußte. Wo er hier versuchte, die Klagen, die er von den örtlichen Stellen der Sipo in Belgien hörte, in irgendeiner Form klar zu stellen und die Sipo Belange vorwärts zu treiben. Ist Ihnen in Erinnerung, daß Reeder und Falkenhausen sich immer geweigert haben, den Judenstern einzuführen? An dieses Detail kann ich mich nicht entsinnen, aber es wäre durchaus mögl. Reeder und Falkenhausen verfolgten eine Politik die daraus ausging die belgische öffentliche Meinung zu gewinnen – – aber sie hatten dabei keine Bedenken, jüd. Ausländer und jüd. Flüchtlinge preis zu geben. Und so sei Belgien das erste occupierte westl Land gewesen, aus dem jüd. Flüchtlinge deportiert wurden und zwar 82 poln. jüd. Familie aus Antwerpen repartiiert, und später eine weit größere Zahl aus Polen stammenden Juden, im Feb und März 42, um in der Textilindustrie von Mo… beschäftigt zu werden. Darüber ist mir auch nicht bekannt, aber mögl. wäre es schon… Erinnern Sie sich wie das Judenlager hieß in Belgien? Marling? Nein, ist mir nicht in Erinnerung. Die Deportierungszüge die ab 4 Aug 42 aus Marlin nach Auschwitz abgingen waren für eine Massenverschickung der Juden ohne Unterschied der Staatsbürgerschaft bestimmt. – Und zwar ist das ausgeklügelt worden von Eichmanns Amt Das kann ich nicht glauben… Das sich sogar später beim ausw. Amt beschwert hat, daß seine Aufträge nicht richtig erfüllt wurden. – Infolgedessen paraphierten Lutter und Rademacher am 2 Dez einen scharfen an, Werner Balken, den Vertreter des ausw. Amtes bei Falkenhausen gerichteten Protest, der sich darauf bezog, daß die bodenstämmigen Belg. Juden nicht erfaßt worden waren Ja, jetzt verstehe ich, ich hatte mich dagegen gestemmt, daß man mir Ausländer schickte und keine belg. Juden… Denn die Juden ausl. Staatsangeh, die mußten ja laut der

Draft translation

3 Volume 58 [HW: 592] Now a large role is played by the military governor, General von Falkenhausen and the civil governor, Ekhardt Reeder. Yes, that I know, I had to write to him a few times on the orders of Heydrich. Falkenhausen is well known, of course, 20 July man--- Yes, Reeder always tried to assert himself against the interventions of the Sipo, do you recall any concrete cases? No, not directly, I can only say this because I several times had to prepare, on the orders of Heydrich, a draft letter for Reeder for him. Where he here tried to clarify in some form the [DEL: [illegible]] complaints that he heard from the local offices of the Sipo in Belgium, and to push forward the Sipo interests. Do you recall that Reeder and Falkenhausen always refused to introduce the Jewish star? This detail I cannot recall, but it would be quite possible. Reeder and Falkenhausen pursued a policy which proceeded from [the aim of] winning over Belgian public opinion--but they had no scruples in this about giving up Jewish foreigners and Jewish refugees. And so Belgium is said to have been the first occupied country [HW: western] from which Jewish refugees were deported, and indeed 82 Polish Jewish famil[ies] from Antwerp repatriated, and later a far greater number of Jews originating from Poland, in Feb and March 42, to be employed in the textile industry of Mo... . About that I am also not informed, but it would indeed be possible... Do you remember what the Jewish camp was called in Belgium? Marling? No, it is not in my memory. The deportation trains which departed from 4 Aug 42 from Marlin to Auschwitz were intended for a mass dispatch of the Jews without distinction of citizenship.--And indeed this was worked out/devised by Eichmann's office. That I cannot believe... Which even later complained to the Foreign Office that its orders were not being carried out correctly. - As a consequence Lutter and Rademacher paraphed/initialed on the 2 [DEL: [illegible]] Dec a sharp [protest] to, directed at Werner Balken, the representative of the Foreign Office at Falkenhausen, a protest, which referred to the fact that the native-born Belgian Jews [DEL: [illegible]] had not been registered/apprehended. Yes, now I understand, I had resisted/opposed that one sent me foreigners and no Belgian Jews...For the Jews of foreign citizenship, those had after all according to the

guidelines, to be exempted in any case. They weren't allowed to be deported at all, unless, of course…

Questioner

No, you misunderstand. Refugees and stateless Jews were deported, but Belgian Jews were not, and Eichmann's office protested against that.

Eichmann

Well, of course. If they send me only stateless Jews, or only Jews with foreign citizenship—but only where that citizenship was of countries we had occupied and where we already had an agreement with the individual governments, or where it concerned countries in the East, that is, Poland—those could of course be deported. They were not exempt from deportation. Naturally it annoyed me when they sent me only such Jews, because my orders were to make Belgium free of Jews according to the guidelines issued. So Falkenhausen and Reeder's conduct was directly contrary to the RF's (Reichsführer-SS's) order. So I had to act against it, so I had to call on the Foreign Office, and so the Foreign Office intervened in Belgium as described here. I would in no way deny that this was how the matter developed and the course it took.

Questioner reads from a book

It is stated here that native Belgian Jews arrived at Auschwitz camp for the first time on 3 August 1943. Until then there had been only a single mass raid in Belgium. On 3 September several hundred Belgian Jews from Antwerp were taken in furniture vans from their homes to the barracks… (?) in Marlin. The Queen and Cardinal van Roy (?) then intervened, and Reeder again ordered these Belgian Jews to be released. The attempt at a mass raid was not repeated after that.

Eichmann

That may be…

Questioner reads from a book

Further privileged groups, 1,800, were taken in 1944 to Theresienstadt, Bergen Belsen and other German camps.

Eichmann

I no longer know about that. 1944—I don't even need to know about that any more, because for a large part of that year I was no longer serving in Berlin.

Questioner

Are you aware that the Belgian population helped the Jews a great deal?

Eichmann

Yes. I no longer know individual cases, but I still remember that the Belgian population was very much on the Jews' side.

Questioner reads from a book

In any case, in the trial against Reeder and Falkenhausen that concluded in 1951, the Brussels court considered their guilt in the deportations of 25,000 Jews proven, but did not hold them responsible for the subsequent tortures and murders.

Open page image and German
Page 593 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 593 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Richtlinien sowieso ausgenommen werden, die durften ja gar nicht deportiert werden, es sei natürlich, daß… Nein, Sie verstehen das falsch, es wurden deportiert, Flüchtlinge und staatenlose Juden – aber belgische Juden nicht und dagegen hat das Amt Eichmann protestiert. Na, selbstverst. – wenn sie mir nur staatenlose Juden schicken oder nur Juden mit ausl. Staatsangeh. aber nur insoweit daß nämlich die Staatsbürgerschaft sich auf Länder erstreckte, die wir besetzt hatten und wo wir mit den einzelnen Regierungen sowieso ein Übereinkommen hatten oder es sich um Länder drehte aus dem Osten, also aus Polen, die konnten selbstverst. deportiert werden, die waren nicht ausgenommen von der Deportation. – Natürlich hat mich das nun geärgert, wenn man mir nur solche Juden schickte, denn mein Befehl lautete ja, Belgien judenfrei zu machen nach den erteilten Richtlinien, also ist das Vorgehen von Falkenhausen und Reeder geradezu conträr zu dem Befehl des RF gewesen, also mußte ich dagegen angehen, also mußte ich hier das ausw. Amt bemühen, also hat dann das ausw. Amt wie hier beschrieben, in Belgien interveniert. Ich möchte keinesfalls in Abrede stellen, daß der Werdegang und Weg auch so war. Hier wird nun erklärt, daß zum ersten Mal am 3. Aug 1943 bodenstämmige, belgische Juden im Lager Auschwitz eingetroffen seien. Bis dahin hat es nur eine einzige Massenrazzia in Belgien gegeben. Am 3. Sept wurden einige hundert belgische Juden aus Antwerpen in Möbelwagen aus ihrem Heimen nach der Kaserne…(?) in Marlin geschafft. Daraufhin intervenierte die Königin und der Kardinal van Roy (?) und Reeder ordnete wieder die Freilassung dieser belgischen Juden an. – Der Versuch einer Massenrazzia wurde daraufhin nicht mehr wiederholt. Das mag sein… Weitere previligierte Gruppen, 1800, wurden im Jahre 1944 nach Theresienstadt, Bergen Belsen und anderen deutschen Lagern gebracht. Das ist mir nicht mehr bekannt, 1944 – das brauche ich gar nicht mehr zu wissen, weil ich ja einen Großteil des Jahres gar nicht mehr amtierte in Berlin Ist Ihnen bekannt, daß die belgische Bevölkerung den Juden sehr geholfen hat? Ja – – – Einzelfälle sind mir nicht mehr bekannt, aber mir ist noch in Erinnerung das die belgische Bevölkerung sehr auf Seiten der Juden gestanden hat. Jedenfalls in dem gegen Reeder und Falkenhausen geführten und 1951 abgeschlossenen Prozeß nahm das Brüssler Gericht die Schuld der Beiden an den Deportationen von 25 000 Juden als erwiesen an, hielt sie aber für die späteren Torturen und Ermordungen nicht für verantwortlich.

Draft translation

4 [illegible] [HW: 593] guidelines are excepted in any case, they were not even allowed to be deported, it being of course "that. . No, you understand that wrongly, they were deported, refugees and stateless Jews--but Belgian Jews not, and against that the Eichmann office protested. Well, of course.--if they send me only stateless Jews or only Jews with foreign citizenship but only insofar as namely the citizenship extended to countries that we had occupied and where we had an agreement with the individual governments anyway or where it concerned countries from the East, so from Poland, those could of course be deported, they were not excepted from the deportation.--Of course it now annoyed me when one sent me only such Jews, for my order was indeed to make Belgium free of Jews according to the issued guidelines, so the action of Falkenhausen and Reeder was downright contrary to the order of the RF, so I had to move against it, so I had to trouble the Foreign Office here, so then the Foreign Office, as described here, intervened in Belgium. I would in no case wish to deny that the development and course was also so. Here it is now explained, that for the first time on 3 Aug 1943 native-born, Belgian Jews arrived at the Auschwitz camp. Until then there had been only a single mass raid in Belgium. On 3 Sept several hundred [TS INS: from Antwerp] Belgian Jews were transported in furniture vans from their homes to the barracks...(?) in Marlin. Thereupon the Queen and the Cardinal van Roy (?) intervened and Reeder again ordered the release of these Belgian Jews.-- The attempt at a mass raid was thereupon no longer repeated. That may be.... Further privileged groups, 1800, were in the year 1944 brought to Theresienstadt, Bergen Belsen and other German camps. That is no longer known to me, 1944--that I do not even need to know any more, because for a large part of the year I was no longer in office in Berlin. Is it known to you that the Belgian population helped the Jews very much? Yes--- Individual cases are no longer known to me, but I still remember that the Belgian population stood very much on the side of the Jews. In any case, in the trial conducted against Reeder and Falkenhausen and concluded in 1951, the Brussels court took the guilt of the two in the deportations of 25,000 Jews as proven, but did not hold them responsible for the later tortures and murders.

Questioner

Yes, nothing more is said about Belgium, and you don't remember anything else either?

I'd be interested to know what the man from the Sipo (Security Police) was called.

Questioner

It isn't in here at all…

Eichmann

Then there probably wasn't anyone down there. It was a very meagre affair in Belgium. The only definite thing I can still remember is that I repeatedly had to write letters to Reeder for Heydrich, which he then signed. [Handwritten note: or (? Kaltenbr…)]

Questioner reads from a book

Now we come to a country that retained its monarchy, its neutrality and its constitution despite German occupation: Denmark. Here resistance to the pressure of Himmler and the SS was 90 per cent successful.

Eichmann

That's true too.

Questioner reads from a book

In 1942 the American press reports that the King of Denmark had threatened to abdicate if the Nuremberg Laws were introduced by the German side.

Eichmann

I don't know about that.

Questioner

It is claimed here that Rademacher served as an informer for the SS in the diplomatic corps.

Eichmann

That is absolutely untrue, in every respect. Rademacher came from the diplomatic career service. He was, I believe, a legation counsellor first class…

Questioner reads from a book

The first German envoy was called Cecil von Rendefink.

Eichmann

I never had anything to do with him.

Questioner reads from a book

On the basis of this experience with the King, Rademacher instructed him to find a suitable opportunity to point out that Denmark would be wise to prepare in good time for a European settlement of the Jewish question to have taken place by the end of the war at the latest.

Questioner

Are you aware that in 1942 King Christian wanted to introduce the Jewish star—had declared that he would be the first to wear the Jewish star?

Eichmann

No, I don't know about that.

Questioner

Do you remember that Himmler, when he was not getting anywhere with the usual measures that had succeeded in every country, ordered Gestapo chief Heinrich Müller in September 1942 to include the names of Jews in a list of communists and Danish resistance leaders whom he intended to arrest?

Eichmann

That is completely new to me. I've never heard it. I had nothing to do with it either.

Unknown speaker

But where did the author get these things?

Eichmann

That is completely new to me…

Open page image and German
Page 594 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 594 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Ja, weiter über Belgien wird nicht mehr gesagt und Ihnen ist auch nichts in Erinnerung? Mich würde interessieren wie der Mann hieß der Sipo? Steht überhaupt nicht drin… Dann wird wohl keiner unten gewesen sein, es war ein sehr magere Sache in Belgien – – das einzige positive wo ich mich noch erinnern kann, ist, daß ich wiederholtest Briefe an Reeder schreiben mußte für Heydrich, die dieser den unterschrieben hat. oder Kaltenbr… Nun kommen wir zu einem Land, daß trotz deutscher Besatzung, seine Monarchie, seine Neutralität und seine Verfassung beibehielt. – Dänemark; Hier war der Widerstand gegen den Druck Himmlers und der SS zu 90% erfolgreich war. Das stimmt auch. Im Jahre 1942 berichtet die amerikanische Presse, daß der König von Dänemark mit seinem Thronverzicht gedroht habe im Falle daß von deutscher Seite die Nürnberger Gesetze eingeführt werden würden Ist mir nicht bekannt – Hier wird behauptet daß Rademacher als Spitzel für die SS in dem diplom. Corps diente Das stimmt auf keinen Fall, in keinster Weise. Rademacher kommt aus der Diplomatenlaufbahn, er war, glaube ich, Legitationsrat 1. Kl…… Der erste deutsche Gesandte hieß Cecil von Rendefink – Mit dem habe ich nie etwas zu tun gehabt. – – – – Auf Grund dieser Erfahrung mit dem König gab Rademacher dem die Weisung eine passende Gelegenheit zu finden, daraufhin zu weisen, daß es klug wäre, wenn Dänemark sich rechtzeitig darauf einstellt, das spätestens am Kriegsende eine europäische Regelung der Judenfrage erfolgt wäre. Ist Ihnen bekannt, daß der König Christian im Jahre 1942, den Judenstern einführen wollte – erklärte habe, er werde als erster den Judenstern tragen? Nein, ist mir nicht bekannt. Erinnern Sie sich daß Himmler, als man mit den normalen Maßnahmen mit denen man in allen Ländern Erfolg hatte, nicht durch drang, im Sept 42 dem Gestapo Chef Heinrich Müller befahl, die Namen von Juden in einer Liste von Kommunisten und dänischen Widerstandsführern aufzunehmen, die er zu verhaften beabsichtige Das ist mir völlig neu – habe ich nie gehört – – hatte auch nichts damit zu tun Aber woher hat der Autor diese Sachen? Das ist mir völlig neu…

Draft translation

[HW: 594] Yes, nothing more is said about Belgium and you also have nothing in your memory? I would be interested in what the man was called, the Sipo? It isn't in there at all... Then probably no one was down there, it was a very meager affair in Belgium--- the only positive thing I can still remember is that I repeatedly had to write letters to Reeder for Heydrich, which the latter signed. [HW: [illegible]] Now we come to a country that, despite German occupation, retained its monarchy, its neutrality and its constitution.-Denmark; Here the resistance against the pressure of Himmler and the SS was 90% successful. That is also correct. In the year 1942 the American press reports that the King of Denmark had threatened to abdicate his throne in the event that the Nuremberg Laws were to be introduced from the German side That is not known to me-- Here it is claimed that Rademacher served as an informer for the SS in the diplomatic Corps That is by no means correct, in no way. Rademacher comes from the diplomatic career [track], he was, I believe, Legation Councillor 1st Class...... The first German envoy was called Cecil von Rendefink-- I never had anything to do with him.---- On the basis of this experience with the King, Rademacher gave [the] instruction to find a suitable opportunity to point out that it would be wise if Denmark prepared itself in good time [for the fact] that at the latest at the war's end a European regulation of the Jewish question would have taken place. Is it known to you that King Christian in the year 1942 wanted to introduce the Jewish star--had decl[?are?]d he would be the first to wear the Jewish star? No, that is not known to me. Do you remember that Himmler, when he did not get through with the normal measures with which one had success in all countries, in Sept 42 ordered the Gestapo Chief Heinrich Mueller to include the names of Jews in a list of communists and Danish resistance leaders whom he intended to arrest That is completely new to me- -I never heard [of it]-- also had nothing to do with it But where did the author get these things? That is completely new to me....

Questioner

Rendefink's successor was the famous K. W. Best. Did you have dealings with him?

Yes. Under Best, the RF (Reichsführer-SS), or Heydrich, demanded that Jews of Danish citizenship be brought into Reich territory. This went back and forth, with the result that, through the office of the Commander of the Sipo and SD (Security Police and Security Service), Dr Rudolf Mildner—I visited him once in Copenhagen—I believe 2,000 or 1,500 Danish Jews were then shipped out. During the crossing I believe some Jews also jumped into the water and committed suicide. The steamer arrived; where they went first, I don't know.

Questioner

You've got the number wrong. There were only 202 Jews on the steamer.

Eichmann

Only 203? Possibly. In any case, I then had to house these Jews in Theresienstadt on the RF's (Reichsführer-SS's) orders. Then Denmark demanded the Jews back. I went to Copenhagen once to discuss the matter with the Commander of the Sipo and SD (Security Police and Security Service), so that I could give Müller and Heydrich an appropriate oral report here and the further course of action could be decided. When I came back, it was more or less the case that these Jews had to be sent back again. Some people died of natural causes, but only a few, and then there were those who had jumped overboard into the water.

Questioner reads from a book

It is stated here that Himmler expected to be able to count on K. W. Best because he had previously belonged to the Secret State Police. But Best, who had left the Gestapo to escape Heydrich's clutches, was freed from his fears for his career by the death of his bitterest enemy.

Eichmann

I'd heard that once before. That was high politics; I couldn't see through it, I couldn't make sense of it.

Questioner

The author of this book defends Best strongly.

Eichmann

I can well believe that. He attacks Heydrich, of course…

Questioner

At one point he writes:

Questioner reads from a book

Best wished to lead a quiet life as Reich plenipotentiary in a semi-neutral country. So the report he sent to Ribbentrop in January 1943 was quite brave. Best proposed—

Questioner

[reading aloud too fast]

Eichmann

Yes, there was no Jewish question in Denmark. Whoever put the idea of ridding Denmark of Jews into the RF's (Reichsführer-SS's) head must have been a bad adviser. Those few Jews in Denmark, whom one had to look for with a magnifying glass, caused the German government more trouble and headaches than if a thousand times that number had been shipped away.

Questioner reads from a book

There were 6,500 Jews in Denmark altogether—

Open page image and German
Page 595 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 595 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Der Nachfolger von Rendefink war der berühmte K.W. Best; Haben Sie mit ihm zu tun gehabt? Ja, unter Best hat der RF oder Heydrich, verlangt, daß die Juden dänischer Staatsangeh. nach dem Reichsgebiet zu bringen sind. Das ist nun Hin und Her gegangen, mit der Folge, daß über die Dienststelle des Bef. der Sipo und SD Dr. Rudolf Mildner, – ich habe ihn einmal besucht in Kopenhagen – sind glaube ich dann 2 000 oder 1500 dänische Juden abgefahren worden. Jetzt sind bei dieser Überfahrt glaube ich auch einige Juden ins Wasser gesprungen und haben Selbstmord verübt. Der Dampfer kam an, wohin sie zuerst gegangen sind, weiß ich nicht, In der Zahl haben Sie sich geirrt, auf dem Dampfer waren nur 202 Juden – – Nur 203? mögl. – jedenfalls habe ich dann diese Juden in Theresienstadt unterbringen müssen auf Befehl des RF. Und dann forderte man von Dänemark die Juden wieder zurück – ich fuhr dann einmal nach Kopenhagen um dort die Sache mit dem Bef. der Sipo und SD zu beörtern, damit ich hier Müller und Heydrich einen entsprechenden mündl. Bericht erstatten kann, damit die weitere Marschroute festgelegt wird und als ich nun zurückkam, war es ungefähr so gewesen, daß diese Juden wieder zurück geschickt werden mußten. Es sind infolge natürl. Ablebens einige Leute gestorben, aber wenige und dann die eben die von Bord ins Wasser gesprungen sind. Hier wird erklärt, daß Himmler erwartete, daß er auf K.W. Best rechnen könne, weil der früher Angeh. der geheimen Staatspol. war – aber Best, der die Gestapo verlassen hatte, um Heydrichs Fängen zu entgehen, war durch den Tod seines ärgsten Feindes von den Befürchtungen für seine Laufbahn befreit. Ich hörte das schon einmal, daß war höhere Politik gewesen, da schaute ich nicht durch, ich konnte es mir nicht zusammen reimen, – Der Autor dieses Buches verteidigt Best sehr. Das glaube ich schon, – er greift Heydrich an natürlich… Einmal schreibt er – Best wünschte als Reichsbevollm. in einem halbneutralen Land ein ruhiges Leben zu führen – darum war der Bericht, den er Ribbentrop im Jahre 1943 Jan zugehen ließ, recht tapfer. – Best schlug vor, (Vorlesen zu schnell Ja, in Dänemark gab es ja keine Judenfrage, wer dem RF den Floh ins Ohr gesetzt hat, Dänemark zu entjuden, muß ein übler Ratgeber gewesen sein, denn diese paar Juden in Dänemark, die mit der Lupe gesucht werden mußten, die haben der deutschen Reg mehr Scherereien und Kopfzerbrechen verursacht, als wenn das tausendfache davon weggefahren wäre. Es gab im Ganzen 6 500 Juden in Dänemark –

Draft translation

Rendefink's successor was the famous K.W. Best; Did you have dealings with him? Yes, under Best the RF, or Heydrich, demanded that the Jews of Danish nationality were to be brought to the Reich territory. This then went back and forth, with the result that via the office of the Commander of the Sipo and SD Dr. Rudolf Mildner, --I visited him once in Copenhagen--- I think then 2,000 or 1,500 Danish Jews were shipped off. Now during this crossing I think also some Jews jumped into the water and committed suicide. The steamer arrived, where they first went, I do not know, You were mistaken in the number, on the steamer there were only 202 Jews---- Only 202? possibly--in any case I then had to accommodate these Jews in Theresienstadt on the order of the RF. And then one demanded the Jews back again from Denmark --I then travelled once to Copenhagen in order to discuss the matter there with the Commander of the Sipo and SD, so that I here could render Mueller and Heydrich a corresponding oral report, so that the further course of march is determined, and when I now came back, it had been approximately so, that these Jews had to be sent back again. As a consequence of natural death some people died, but few, and then those precisely who jumped from board into the water. Here it is stated that Himmler expected that he could count on K.W. Best, because he was earlier a member of the secret State Police--but Best, who had left the Gestapo in order to escape Heydrich's clutches, was freed by the death of his bitterest enemy [DEL: fxxx] from the apprehensions for his career. I heard that once already, that was higher politics, there I did not see through it, I could not make sense of it,-- The author of this book defends Best very much. That I do believe,--he attacks Heydrich of course... At one point he writes---Best wished, as Reich Plenipotentiary in a semi-neutral country, to lead a quiet life--therefore the report which he had sent to Ribbentrop in the year 1943 [HW: Jan] was quite brave.-- Best proposed, (reading aloud too fast Yes, in Denmark there was indeed no Jewish question, whoever put the flea in the RF's ear to de-Jew Denmark must have been a bad advisor, for those few Jews in Denmark, who had to be searched for with a magnifying glass, they caused the German government more trouble and headache than if a thousandfold of that had been taken away. There were in total 6,500 Jews in Denmark--

As I say, there was no Jewish question in Denmark…

Questioner reads from a book

There were 1,350 refugees from Germany who until then had been valued by the Danish government. Now Best proposed that, if German citizenship were restored to these refugees, the Danes would no longer be able to protect them. But Best, who was an excellent lawyer, certainly knew that this was impossible under German law.

Eichmann

No, that wasn't possible. Now it is possible again. I recently read in the newspaper that all those Jews who lost German citizenship through my department can now apply to regain German citizenship, because a law has since been passed in West Germany making this legal repatriation possible. But that does not happen wholesale either. An individual application has to be made, so that incorporation into the German national body is also carried out individually. Only now, so long after the war, is it possible.

But as I already said about Denmark: first, there had been no Jewish question there. Second, we never intended to intervene there. Third, whoever inspired the RF (Reichsführer-SS) with this idea was a bad adviser. I may assume that this adviser acted either out of stupidity or deliberately. Fifth, it is also possible that the RF (Reichsführer-SS) thought of it himself, not knowing that there really were only a miserable few thousand Jews in Denmark.

However hard I examine myself as to whether, and to what extent, I might have taken any initiative here, I have to answer in the negative. If only because, with the enormous row that arose over this matter, I would inevitably have received a terrible dressing-down from one office or another—whether the head of Office 4, the Chief of the Sipo and SD (Security Police and Security Service), or the RF (Reichsführer-SS)—because I was, after all, the lowest-ranking person who had a share in the whole affair. It would have been very easy to give me a dressing-down, but because I had been so completely removed from anything that set it off, they could not do that. And with that I have amply demonstrated my department's inactivity in this field. Naturally, once the basic order, the instruction, was given, I got involved; then I had to deal with the matter.

Questioner reads from a book

They waited for an event that would allow harsher action over Jewish affairs, and that event was unrest caused by a strike of the dockworkers in Odensee.

Open page image and German
Page 596 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 596 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Ich sage ja, es gab keine Judenfrage in Dänemark… Es gab 1 350 Flüchtlinge aus Deutschland… die von der dänischen Reg. bisher geschätzt wurden. – Nun machte Best den Vorschlag, wenn man diesen Flüchtlingen die deutsche Staatsangeh, wieder zurückgebe, daß dann die Dänen den Schutz nicht mehr ausüben könnten – aber Best, der ein ausgezeichneter Jurist war wußte bestimmt daß das auf Grund der deutschen Gesetze nicht möglich war. Nein, das ging nicht, – – – jetzt geht es wieder, ich las neulich in der Zeitung, daß all jene Juden, die durch mein Dezernat die deutsche Staatsangeh. verloren haben, nun den Antrag stellen können, zur Wiedererlangung der deutschen Staatsangeh. weil nämlich inzwischen in Westdeutschland ein Gesetz herausgekommen ist, das diese juristische Repatriierung ermöglicht. Das geht aber auch nicht in Bausch und Bogen, da muß ein individueller Antrag gestellt werden, um dann auch individuell die Einverleibung in den deutschen Körper vorgenommen wird. – – – Jetzt erst nach so langer Zeit nach dem Krieg ist es mögl. Aber ich sagte schon zu Dänemark; 1. hatte es keine Judenfrage vorliegen gehabt, 2. Von uns nie beabsichtigt hier hineinzustechen 3. Wer dem RF diese Sache inspirierte, war ein schlechter Ratgeber – ich darf unterstellen, daß dieser Ratgeber entweder aus Dummheit oder aus Vorsatz gehandelt hat. 5. Mögl. ist allerdings auch, daß der RF von sich aus darauf gekommen ist. Aus einer Unkenntnis heraus, daß in Dänemark nun wirklich nur ein paar kümmerliche tausend Juden da waren… Und so sehr ich mich prüfe, ob und inwieweit ich vielleicht hier eine Initiative rolle gespielt hätte, muß ich hier negativ beantworten, schon allein aus dem Grunde, weil ich bei dem ungeheuren Knatsch, der aus dieser Sache entstand, ich unweigerlich von irgendeiner Stelle sei es Amtschef 4, sei es der Chef der Sipo und SD, sei es der RF, eineß Fürchterlichen auf den Hut verpaßt bekommen hätte, weil ich schließlich der kleinst Dienstgrad war, der an dem ganzen Brocken mitgegessen habe. Es wäre sehr billig gewesen, mir hier so …ine aufs Dach zu verpassen, aber weil ich so ganz abseits stand, von jeglicher …nitialzündung, hat man das nicht tun können, und damit habe ich die Inaktivi…tät meines Dezernates auf diesem Gebiet reichlich bewiesen. …atürlich als der grundsätzliche Befehl, die Weisung gegeben ward, da habe …ch mich eingeschaltet, da mußte ich die Sache bearbeiten. …un wartete auf ein Ereignis, auf Grund dessen, man etwas schärfer gegen die …denangelegenheiten vorgehen konnte, und dieses Ereignis waren Unruhen die …rvorgerufen wurden durch einen Streik der Hafenarbeiter in Odensee.

Draft translation

Band 58 [HW: 596] I do say, there was no Jewish question in Denmark... There were 1,350 refugees from Germany... who up to now were being protected [OCR: "geschaetzt" = estimated/valued, but sense requires "geschuetzt" = protected] by the Danish government.--Now Best made the proposal that if one gave these refugees back the German citizenship, then the Danes could no longer exercise the protection--but Best, who was an outstanding jurist, knew for certain that this was not possible under German law. No, that did not work,---now it works again, I recently read in the newspaper that all those Jews who lost the German citizenship through my department can now file the application for the regaining of the German citizenship, because in the meantime in West Germany a law has come out that makes this juridical repatriation possible. But that does not go through wholesale either, there an individual application must be filed, so that then the incorporation into the German body [corpus] is also carried out individually.---Only now, after such a long time after the war, is it possible. But I already said as to Denmark: 1. it had had no Jewish question present, 2. Never intended by us to stick in here [intervene here] 3. Whoever inspired the RF [Reichsführer] with this matter was a bad adviser--I may assume that this adviser acted either out of stupidity or out of intent. 5. Possible, however, is also that the RF came upon it of his own accord. Out of an ignorance, that in Denmark there really were only a few miserable thousand Jews.... And however much I examine myself, whether and to what extent I perhaps played an initiative role here, I must answer this in the negative, for the sole reason that, given the enormous quarrel/mess that arose out of this matter, I would inevitably have gotten a terrible one on the hat [i.e. gotten a terrible rap over the head] from some office, be it Amtschef 4 [head of Office 4], be it the chief of the Sipo and SD, be it the RF, because I was after all the smallest rank [service grade] who ate along at the whole chunk. It would have been very cheap to give me one on the roof here [i.e. to rap me over the head], but because I stood so entirely off to the side, from every initial ignition [instigation], one could not do that, and thereby I have amply proved the inactivity of my department in this field. Naturally when the fundamental order, the directive was given, then I switched myself in [got involved], then I had to work on the matter. Now [one] waited for an event, on the basis of which one could proceed somewhat more sharply against the Je[wish] affairs, and this event was disturbances/unrest which were caused by a strike of the harbor workers in Odense.

Questioner reads from a book

And the affair was triggered by the Swedish government passing on to the soldiers stationed in Norway the right to use the Swedish railways (?).

Questioner

(Next sentence) [unintelligible on the recording]

Questioner reads from a book

There was unrest and there were arrests, and on 9 August the Danish prime minister threatened to resign if the Danish courts had to open criminal proceedings against those arrested. Martial law was then proclaimed. After that, the Danish resistance movement blew up the German-occupied Vorum (?) hall. The strike then intensified, so that the next day all Danish shipyards were on strike. Then the gov— … (?) resigned, and General Hanneken proclaimed martial law throughout Denmark. Danish government business was then in practice conducted by the ministerial directors, acting for the ministers. Best now thought this was a favourable opportunity for the deportations, and on 8 September demanded police reinforcements and help from the Wehrmacht.

Questioner

Are you informed about all these matters? Do you know or remember anything?

No. After all, this matter was too insignificant to have interested me much at the time, let alone for me still to be able to recall anything about it today.

Questioner reads from a book

On 18 September Rolf Günther arrived in Copenhagen with a delegation from … and Eichmann's office. The Commander of the Sipo (Security Police) in Copenhagen, SS Stadf. (Standartenführer) Rudolf Mildner, immediately recognized the intentions, which would then have been held against him. He flew to Berlin to persuade Kaltenbrunner to call the men back, but had no success. Meanwhile Best tried to cover himself on both sides. On the evening of the raid, he promised Swe. to pass on the King's wish that the Jews should be interned in Denmark.

Eichmann

Yes, Günther went to Copenhagen and set some operation in motion there. What it was and how, I don't know either. I believe he got the transport organized. Doesn't the author say that?

Questioner reads from a book

The transport took place, and it was stated that the soldiers who had been interned should be let out and the Jews locked up instead, to show the Danish soldiers that they were not the enemy, but that the Jews were the enemy. It was also proposed that 50 to 100 Jews be deported for every act of sabotage. Finally Best assured Ribbentrop that the deportations would begin immediately when the steamer Wartheland arrived in Copenhagen. And he complains about the lack of help from Hanecken.

Eichmann

Yes, they must have pulled out all the stops to get those few—

Open page image and German
Page 597 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 597 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Und zwar ausgelöst wurde die Sache durch die Schwed. Reg. den in Norwegen stationierten Soldaten das Recht zur Benützung der schwedischen Bahnen (?) weiterzugeben (Nächster Satz unverständlich…) Es gab Unruhen und Verhaftungen und am 9 Aug drohte der dänische Ministerpräs. mit dem Rücktritt falls die dänischen Gerichte gegen die Verhafteten ein Strafverfahren eröffnen müßten. Daraufhin wurde ein Standrecht verkündet… und daraufhin sprengte die dänische Widerstandsbewegung die deutsch-besetzte, Vorum (?) Halle in die Luft. Daraufhin verstärkte sich der Streik, sodaß am nächsten Tag alle dänischen Schiffswerken streikten. Daraufhin trat die Reg- (?) zurück und General Hanecken verkündigte das Standrecht für ganz Dänemark. Die dänischen Regierungsgeschäfte wurden dann praktisch nunmehr von den Ministerialdirektoren wahr genommen. in Vertretung der Minister. Nun dachte Best daß das eine günstige Gelegenheit für die Deportationen sei, und verlangte am 8. Sept Polizeiverstärkung und Hilfe von der Wehrmacht Sind Sie über alle diese Sachen informiert, kennen oder erinnern Sie sich an etwas… Nein, es ist ja schließl. auch zu bedeutungslos gewesen diese Sache, als daß es mich um jene Zeit sehr interessiert hätte, geschweige denn daß ich heute noch irgendeine Rückerinnerung aufzubringen in der Lage wäre. Am 18 Sept kam Rolf Günter mit einer Abordnung von … und Eichmanns Amt in Copenhagen an. Der Befehlshaber der Sipo in Copenhagen SS Stadf. Rudolf Mildner erkannte sofort was für Absichten bestanden, die dann ihm zur Last gelegt worden wären, er flog nach Berlin, um Kaltenbrunner zu bewegen, die Leute zurück zu rufen, hatte damit aber keinen Erfolg. Best versuchte in der Zwischenzeit sich nach beiden Seiten zu decken. Er versprach Swe. an dem Abend an dem die Razzia stattfand, den Wunsch des Königs weiterzuleiten, daß die Juden in Dänemark interniert werden mögen. Ja, Günter ist nach Copenhagen gefahren und hat dort irgendeine Aktion in die Wege geleitet – was und wie das weiß ich auch nicht – ich glaube er hat den Transport auf die Beine gebracht, schreibt das nicht der Autor ? Es wurde transportiert und zwar hat man erklärt, man soll die Soldaten auslassen die interniert waren und dafür die Juden einsperren, um den dänischen Soldaten zu zeigen, sie seien nicht der Feind, sondern der Feind seien die Juden Außerdem wurde vorgeschlagen, für jeden Sabotageakt sollen 50 bis 100 Juden deportiert werden. Schließlich versicherte Best Ribbentrop, daß die Deportationen sofort beginnen würden, sobald der Dampfer Wartheland in Copenhagen eintreffe. und er beschwert sich über den Mangel von Hilfe von Hanecken, Ja, es müssen schon allerhand Geschütze aufgefahren sein, um die paar

Draft translation

[HW: 597] And in fact the matter was triggered by the Swedish government passing on to the soldiers stationed in Norway the right to use the Swedish railways (?) (Next sentence unintelligible.....) There were disturbances and arrests and on 9 Aug the Danish Prime Minister threatened to resign if the Danish courts should have to open criminal proceedings against those arrested. Thereupon a martial law was proclaimed... and thereupon the Danish resistance movement blew the German-occupied, Vorum (?) hall into the air. Thereupon the strike intensified, so that on the next day all Danish shipyards were on strike. Thereupon the government (?) resigned and General Hanecken proclaimed martial law for all of Denmark. The Danish governmental affairs were then practically now conducted by the ministerial directors, in representation of the ministers. Now Best thought that this was a favorable opportunity for the deportations, and on 8 Sept demanded police reinforcement and help from the Wehrmacht Are you informed about all these matters, do you know or do you remember something.... No, it was after all ultimately too insignificant, this matter, for it to have interested me very much at that time, let alone that I would today still be in a position to bring up any recollection. On 18 Sept Rolf Guenter arrived in Copenhagen with a delegation from and Eichmann's office. The commander of the Sipo in Copenhagen, SS Stadf. Rudolf Mildner immediately recognized what intentions existed, which would then have been laid to his charge, he flew to Berlin, in order to persuade Kaltenbrunner to call the people back, but had no success with that. Best in the meantime tried to cover himself toward both sides. He [TS INS: pro-]mised Swe. on the evening on which the raid took place, to pass on the wish of the King, that the Jews in Denmark might be interned. Yes, Guenter travelled to Copenhagen and set in motion some action there--what and how, that I also do not know--I believe he got the transport onto its feet, does the author not write that? There was transporting and in fact it was declared, one should let out the soldiers who were interned and in return lock up the Jews, in order to show the Danish soldiers, they were not the enemy, but rather the enemy were the Jews. Besides it was proposed, for every act of sabotage 50 to 100 Jews should be deported.. Finally Best assured Ribbentrop that the deportations would begin immediately, as soon as the steamer Wartheland arrived in Copenhagen. and he complains about the lack of help from Hanecken, Yes, quite a lot of artillery must indeed have been brought up, in order to [get] the few

Jews out of Denmark.

Questioner

Aren't you aware that they even wanted to send Gruppenführer Berger to Denmark to carry the operation out?

Eichmann

No, I don't know about that. There seems to have been some office with a very particular interest in having these few Jews transported out of Denmark.

Questioner

Berger was the fellow with the idea of a Greater Germanic Reich, wasn't he? Perhaps it was he who thought that all the Scandinavian countries should be made Nordic-Germanic?

Eichmann

Possibly that was where it came from…

Questioner

Because the idea of a Greater Germanic Reich comes from Berger…

Eichmann

There must have been some office behind it, because we ourselves laughed at the enormous effort required for those few Jews, who were then sent back again on top of it. But we, my department, we washed our hands of any blame, because we did nothing but transport them. Orders are orders. And transport them back again, as ordered.

Questioner reads from a book

Now this raid had the following lack of success: 284 Jews were arrested, of whom 50 were released again as privileged Jews, and only 202 Jews were put aboard the steamer Wartheland. Occasional arrests raised the number to 470, but more than 6,000 full Jews and 1,376 half-Jews were smuggled across the border into Sweden.

Eichmann

Well, that was always the reaction when we appeared…

Questioner reads from a book

Best was less successful in his efforts to wrest some Danish Jews from the clutches of Eichmann's office. There was, for example, a 102-year-old Jewish woman, and Best requested—she had been sent to Theresienstadt—that this woman be released and sent back to improve morale.

Eichmann

Yes, I remember, and that was done.

Questioner

No, it wasn't done. It says here in a report…

[unintelligible on the recording]

Questioner reads from a book

of 25 October that the RSHA (Reich Security Main Office) absolutely disapproved of it, because it would have to give the Jews an impression of weakness if some of them were brought back to Copenhagen.

Eichmann

But they were all sent back…

Questioner

There's nothing about that in this book…

Eichmann

But I would have staked my life on it: those few Danish Jews had to march back again…

Open page image and German
Page 598 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 598 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Juden aus Dänemark zu bekommen Ist Ihnen nicht bekannt, daß man sogar den Gruppenführer Berger nach Dänemark schicken wollte um die Sache durchzuführen Nein – ist mir nicht bekannt. – Es scheint eine Stelle da gewesen zu sein, die ein ganz besonderes Interesse daran hatte, daß dies paar Juden aus Dänemark transportiert werden. Berger war doch gerade der Onkel mit dem Gedanken Groß Germanisches Reich… ob der nicht daraufkam, daß man die ganzen Skandinavischen Länder nordisch-germanisch machen sollte? Möglich, das es von da kam… Den die Idee, Groß Germanisches Reich, ist von Berger… Irgendeine Stelle muß da gewesen sein, denn wir selber lachten ja über die gewaltige Kraftanstrengung die notwendig war für die paar Juden, die dann obendrein wieder zurück geschickte wurden. Aber wir, mein Dezernat, wir wuschen unsere Hände in Unschuld, denn wir taten nichts anderes als zu transportieren, Befehl ist Befehl, und wieder zurück transportieren gemäß Befehl. Nun diese Razzia hatte folgenden Nicht-Erfolg; 284 Juden wurden festgenommen, davon wurden 50 wieder freigelassen, als previligierte Juden, und nur 202 Juden wurden auf diesen Dampfer Wartheland gebracht. Gelegentliche Festnahmen erhöhten diese Zahl auf 470 aber mehr als 6000 Volljuden und 1376 Halbjuden wurden über die Grenze nach Schweden geschmuggelt. Nun das war ja immer die Reaktion auf unser Auftreten… Weniger erfolgreich war Best in seinen Bemühungen einige dänische Juden aus den Fängen von Eichmanns Amt zu entreißen – das war zB. eine 102 Jahre alte Jüdin – und da hat Best beantragt – sie kam nach Theresienstadt – man möge doch zur Hebung der Stimmung diese Frau frei geben und zurückschicken. – Ja, ich entsinne und das wurde auch gemacht Nein, wurde nicht gemacht… hier heißt es in einem Bericht… (unverständl gesprochen… – vom 25. Okt; daß das RSHA ihn absolut mißbillige, weil es unter den Juden den Eindruck von Schwäche machen müsse, wenn einige von ihnen nach Copenhagen zurück gebracht wurden. Aber sie sind doch alle wieder zurück gegeben warden… In diesem Buch steht davon nichts… Aber ich hätte mich dafür kreuzigen lassen, daß diese paar dänischen Juden wieder zurückmarschieren mußten…

Draft translation

to get Jews out of Denmark Is it not known to you that they even wanted to send Gruppenführer Berger to Denmark to carry the matter out No-- it is not known to me.-- There seems to have been an office that had a quite special interest in these few Jews being transported out of Denmark. But Berger was precisely the fellow with the idea of a Greater Germanic Reich... whether he did not hit upon the idea that all the Scandinavian countries ought to be made Nordic-Germanic? Possible, that it came from there... For the idea, Greater Germanic Reich, is from Berger..... Some office must have been there, for we ourselves laughed at the enormous exertion of force that was necessary for the few Jews, who then on top of that were sent back again. But we, my department, we washed our hands in innocence, for we did nothing other than to transport, an order is an order, and to transport back again according to order. Now this raid had the following non-success; 284 Jews were arrested, of these 50 were released again, as privileged Jews, and only 202 Jews were brought onto this steamer Wartheland.. Occasional arrests raised this number to 470 but more than 6000 full Jews and 1376 half Jews were smuggled across the border into Sweden. Now that was always the reaction to our appearance.... Less successful was Best in his efforts to wrest some Danish Jews from the clutches of Eichmann's office --that was e.g. a 102-year-old Jewess -and there Best applied--she came to Theresienstadt---that one should indeed, for the raising of the mood, release this woman and send her back.-- Yes, I recall and that was also done No, was not done......here it says in a report....(spoken unintelligibly......- of the 25th Oct; that the RSHA absolutely disapproved of it, because it must make the impression of weakness among the Jews if some of them were brought back to Copenhagen. But they were all given back again...... In this book there is nothing about that..... But I would have let myself be crucified for it, that these few Danish Jews had to march back again...

But they did come back. I still remember how angry I was with the idiot who sent those old people on the journey in the first place…

Questioner

That was probably Günther's operation?

Eichmann

It doesn't matter. Even if it was Günther, he got his knuckles rapped just the same. I remember very clearly the disgraceful business and the dressings-down over sending those old farts on the journey at all. As far as Denmark was concerned, we did nothing but disgrace ourselves. I was always against putting a thorn in a country's side for nothing at all. It wasn't worth it, for the sake of a few thousand Jews you could count on one hand.

Questioner

Do you remember that the Swedish envoy in Berlin asked for Sweden to be allowed to take at least the children?

Eichmann

I don't know about it, but it would have been entirely in keeping with the intervention at the time.

Questioner

It was rejected, of course—by the Foreign Office.

Questioner reads from a book

Later all these deported Danish Jews came to Theresienstadt.

Eichmann

Yes, I remember that, much to Eppstein's annoyance.

Questioner

And you don't remember anything else about Denmark?

Eichmann

No. Even today I can still get angry at the stupidity of deporting those old farts back then…

But looking at it today, all in all: you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

But I must still add that I'm not certain Günther carried out this operation with the old people. Perhaps it was another idiot after all…

Questioner

Do you remember anything else about Norway?

Eichmann

I know practically even less about that than about Denmark.

Questioner

Are you aware that there was a Jewish reception camp at Berg near D onsberg?

Eichmann

No. Norway is a blank to me; I know nothing about it…

Questioner

Don't you remember that all the German measures against Jews were carried out in Norway?

Eichmann

How many Jews were there?

Questioner

In Oslo, 1,700. There were very few…

Eichmann

You must excuse me: if I can often remember 20,000 or 30,000 Jews only very vaguely, then I probably don't remember 1,000 or 2,000 Jews at all…

Questioner

Do you know the name Korherr?

Open page image and German
Page 599 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 599 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Aber sie sind doch zurückgekommen – ich weiß doch noch wie ich mich geärgert habe, über diesen Trottel, der diese Alten überhaupt auf die Reise geschickt hat… Das war wohl die Aktion Günters gewesen? Ist ja egal, auch wenn es Günter war, ist ihm genauso auf die Finger geklopft worden, denn da entsinne ich mich noch ganz genau, an die Schweinerei und die Anpfiffe die es gegeben hat, diese alten Säcke überhaupt auf die Reise zu schicken. Im Hinblick Dänemark haben wir uns nichts als blamiert und ich war immer dagegen in ein Land einen Stachel hineinzusetzen wegen nichts und wieder nichts, es lohnt sich ja gar nicht, wegen ein paar tausend Juden, die man an einer Hand abzählen kann. Erinnern Sie sich daß der schwedische Gesandte in Berlin darum gebeten hat, daß Schweden wenigstens die Kinder übernehmen dürfe. Ist mir nicht bekannt, aber es läge absolut in der Natur der damaligen Intervention. Es wurde natürlich abgelehnt. Und zwar vom ausw. Amt… Später kamen dann alle diese dänischen deportierten Juden nach Theresienstadt Ja, das weiß ich noch, sehr zum Verdruß von Eppstein Und sonst wissen Sie nichts mehr über Dänemark Nein… ich kann mich nur auch noch heute über die Trotteligkeit ärgern, damals diese alten Säcke zu deportieren… Aber nun heute gesagt im summasumarium wo gehobelt wird, fallen Späne. – Aber ich muß trotzdem dem noch unterstellen, daß ich nicht sicher bin, daß Günter diese Aktion mit den Alten getroffen hat, vielleicht war es doch ein anderer Trottel gewesen… Über Norwegen ist Ihnen da noch etwas erinnerlich? Da weiß ich praktisch noch weniger wie über Dänemark Ist Ihnen bekannt, daß es eine Judenaufnahmelager gab bei Berg bei Donsberg? Nein – – – Norwegen ist ein schwarzes Tuch, da weiß ich gar nichts… Ist Ihnen nicht erinnerlich, daß in Norwegen sämtl deutsche Judenmaßnahmen durchgeführt worden sind, – Wieviel Juden gab es denn? In Oslo 1 700, es gab sehr wenig… Man muß schon entschuldigen, wenn ich mich schon oft nur sehr vage an 20 000 oder 30 000 Juden erinnern kann, daß ich mich dann an 1000 oder 2000 Juden wohl gar nicht mehr erinnere… Ist Ihnen der Name Korherr bekannt?

Draft translation

10 Volume 58 [HW: 599] But they did come back after all--I still remember how I got annoyed, about that idiot who sent these old people on the journey at all.... That was probably Guenter's operation? It doesn't matter, even if it was Guenter, he got his knuckles rapped just the same, because there I still remember quite exactly, the mess and the dressings-down that there were, to send these old sacks on the journey at all. With regard to Denmark we did nothing but make fools of ourselves and I was always against setting a thorn into a country for nothing at all, it isn't even worth it, for the sake of a few thousand Jews, that one can count on one hand. [TS INS: in Berlin] Do you remember that the Swedish envoy asked that Sweden be at least permitted to take over the children. That is not known to me, but it would lie absolutely in the nature of the intervention of that time. It was naturally rejected. And indeed by the Foreign Office... Later then all these Danish deported Jews came to Theresienstadt Yes, that I still know, very much to the annoyance of Eppstein And otherwise you know nothing more about Denmark No....I can only still today get annoyed about the idiocy, of deporting these old sacks back then... But now, said today in the sum-summation, where planing is done, shavings fall.--- But I must nevertheless still suppose, that I am not sure, that Guenter carried out this operation with the old people, perhaps it was after all another idiot..... About Norway is anything still remembered by you there? There I know practically even less than about Denmark Is it known to you, that there was a Jew reception camp near Berg near Donsberg? No---Norway is a black cloth, there I know nothing at all.... Is it not remembered by you, that in Norway all German Jew measures were carried out, -- How many Jews were there then? In Oslo 1,700, there were very few..... One must indeed excuse me, when I often can only remember very vaguely 20,000 or 30,000 Jews, that I then probably no longer remember 1000 or 2000 Jews at all.... Is the name Korherr known to you?

Questioner

Because a Dr Korherr reported to Himmler on Jewish matters?

Unless that was the statistician? No…

I didn't have another Korherr.

Questioner reads from a book

In a general raid only 725 Jews were found at all, and the raid was carried out mainly by members of the Qu. party (Parte…) ….

Eichmann

Yes, perhaps it is the statistician after all?

Yes, it can only be the statistician…

Questioner

Do you remember a transport on the Norddeutscher Lloyd steamer Donau from Belgen to a German port, with Auschwitz as its destination?

Eichmann

No, I don't remember that at all.

Questioner reads from a book

A second group was then deported in March 1943. Only 43 Jews deported from Norway to Auschwitz survived the war.

Eichmann

When I don't remember something, I don't mean that I think it is untrue. No, I no longer recall it. Just as I cannot understand why anyone intervened in these countries at all…

Questioner

Do you know nothing of the negotiations in Norway's case too, of the Swedish government's requests stating that it was prepared to take in the Norwegian Jews?

Eichmann

No, I can no longer remember these Nordic matters. I can only condemn the fact that anyone interfered there at all.

Questioner

It is also interesting that Mr Weiszaecker rejected precisely these requests from the Swedish government, reported on them to Ribbentrop as well, and declared that such a plan had no prospect of success.

Eichmann

Weiszaecker, the 20 July man—well, that fits the pattern…

Questioner

This Swedish proposal to take in Jews must surely be familiar to you somehow. It must have matched your original ideal regarding emigration, with all the difficulties there were with receiving countries. It must have been what you wanted, and surely you must remember it?

Eichmann

Yes, but the number was so small.

Questioner

Yes, but it is this matter we are discussing. I can well imagine, precisely because it matched your original ideal, that you will remember it, because at that particular time, when nothing at all could be done with any government—

Open page image and German
Page 600 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 600 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Denn über die Judenangelegenheiten berichtete ein Dr. Korherr an Himmler? Wenn das nicht der Statistiker gewesen ist?… nein… Einen anderen Korherr habe ich nicht gehabt Bei einer allgemeinen Razzia wurden nur 725 Juden überhaupt entdeckt und diese Razzia wurde hauptsächlich von den Angehörigen der Qu. … Parte… durchgeführt. – Ja, vielleicht ist es doch der Statistiker? – – – – – – Ja, daß kann nur der Statistiker sein… Ist Ihnen erinnerlich, daß ein Transport stattfand mit dem Dampfer " Donau" des Norddeutschen Lloyd von Belgien nach einem deutschen Hafen mit dem Bestimmungsort Auschwitz. Nein, ist mir gar nicht mehr in Erinnerung. Eine zweite Gruppe wurden dann im März 1943 deportiert. Nur 43 aus Norwegen nach Auschwitz deportierte Juden haben den Krieg überlebt. Ich will damit nicht sagen, wenn ich mich nicht erinnere, daß ich es für nicht wahr halte, nein, ich entsinne mich nicht mehr daran. Genau so wie ich es nicht begreifen kann, daß man hier überhaupt in diese Länder eingegriffen hat… Ist Ihnen nichts bekannt von den Verhandlungen, auch im Falle Norwegen, von den Anträgen der schwedischen Regierung, daß sie bereit sei, die norwegischen Juden aufzunehmen? Nein, ich kann mich an diese nordischen Sachen nicht mehr erinnern, ich muß nur verurteilen, daß da überhaupt hineingestochen wurde. Interessant ist auch, daß gerade die Anträge der schwedischen Regierung Herr Weiszäcker abgelehnt hat und darüber noch an Ribbentrop berichtet hat und erklärt hat, so einen Plan habe keine Aussicht. Weiszäcker, der vom 20 Juli – – – – nun liegt ganz in der Linie… Dieser schwedische Vorschlag, nun Juden aufzunehmen, der muß Ihnen doch irgendwie bekannt sein – – – es müßte doch weil es Ihrem ursprünglichen Wunschbild entsprach bzgl. der Auswanderung, und nun die vielen Schwierigkeiten mit den Aufnahmeländer da waren – – – es müßte doch Ihrem Wunsch entsprochen haben und Sie müßten sich doch daran erinnern? Ja, aber nun war die Zahl so gering gewesen, Ja, aber es geht um diese Sache – – – und ich kann mir gut vorstellen, weil es ja gerade Ihrem ursprünglichen Wunschbild entsprach, daß Sie sich an diese Sache noch erinnern werden, weil ja gerade in der damaligen Zeit wo überhaupt mit keiner Regierung etwas zu machen wäre,

Draft translation

11 Volume 58 [HW: 600] For it was a Dr. Korherr who reported to Himmler on the Jewish matters? If that was not the statistician?...... no.... I did not have another Korherr In a general raid only 725 Jews were discovered at all [DEL: [illegible]] and this raid was carried out mainly by the members of the Qu. . Part[?y?] carried out. -- Yes, perhaps it is the statistician after all?------ Yes, that can only be the statistician..... Do you recall that a transport took place with the steamer "Donau" of the Norddeutscher Lloyd from Belgium to a German port with the destination Auschwitz. No, I no longer remember it at all. A second group was[?] then deported in March 19 43. Only 43 from Norway [TS INS: to Auschwits] deported Jews survived the war. I do not mean to say by this, when I do not remember, that I hold it to be untrue, no, I no longer recall it. Just as I cannot comprehend that one intervened in these countries at all..... Is nothing known to you of the negotiations, also in the case of Norway, of the requests of the Swedish government that it was willing to take in the Norwegian Jews? No, I can no longer remember these Nordic matters, I must only condemn that there was any meddling in there at all. Interesting too is that it was precisely the requests of the Swedish government that Herr Weiszaecker rejected [TS INS: has] and reported about it to Ribbentrop and de[?]clared that such a plan had no prospect. Weiszaecker, who [was] of the 20th of July----now lies entirely in line...... --------- This Swedish proposal, now to take in Jews, must surely be somehow known to you---it would have to, because it corresponded to your original ideal wish regarding emigration, and now the many difficulties with the receiving countries were there--- it would have had to correspond to your wish and you would surely have to remember it? Yes, but now the number had been so small, Yes, but it is about this matter--- and I can well imagine, because it precisely corresponded to your original ideal wish, that you will still remember this matter, because precisely in that period when nothing at all could be done with any government,

Questioner

that this proposal must have been like a flower in the desert in your eyes. That was 1943.

Even if that were so, the RF's (Reichsführer-SS's) ban was in force at that time. It would not have been possible at all…

Questioner

Yes, but the RF's (Reichsführer-SS's) ban was also such that—not after all… Look at the case of Hungar— …—and I seem to remember dimly that you once spoke to me about it, and that it was quite clear to you at the time, and that it was precisely this intervention by Weizsaecker that completely thwarted the efforts then being made, which your office itself supported. And that your office then did not want to start a war with the all-powerful under-secretary of state. So recalling something along those lines would not be without interest.

Eichmann

You mean that Weizsaecker opposed Jews leaving Norway for Sweden? And the Danish Jews whom Sweden wanted to take in as well? Weizsaecker opposed all that?

Questioner

Yes, the author writes here:

Questioner reads from a book

in keeping with his usual conduct, Weizsaecker refused to discuss the question at all.

Questioner

Because we have other cases too where Weizsaecker was always against the Jews. In the Italian case we see that he did something different…

Eichmann

So Weizsaecker was against it, and therefore against our intentions. All right, you can put it that way. At that moment it was all the same to us where they went. We had to clear Norway of them. If they left for neutral Sweden, that would have suited us. If they had gone a few years earlier, we would have been glad. Or if Sweden had been able to take 30,000 or 40,000 off our hands a few years earlier, we would have been glad. We would even have paid for it.

So one could indeed say here that Weizsaecker—if it is true that these Jews went from Norway to Auschwitz, which I don't know—if that is true, then some of them certainly will not have survived the war; perhaps none will have survived. But in any case Weizsaecker would then have set himself up as the murderer of the Jews. Because we would have let them go.

Questioner

Is that what you meant?

Eichmann

That's right.

Questioner

The first time Sweden asked to be allowed to take in the children, Stenkraft (?) opposed it…

Eichmann

Why?

[Reading aloud, quickly and indistinctly: the answer to the Swedish government's request.]

Open page image and German
Page 601 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 601 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

daß nun dieser Vorschlag quasi wie so eine Blume in der Wüste gewesen sein muß in Ihrem Auge, das war 1943 Selbst wenn an dem so wäre, es bestand ja um diese Zeit das Verbot des RF, es wäre doch gar nicht möglich gewesen… Ja aber das RF Verbot war nun auch so, daß nicht doch… sehen Sie Fall Ungar… und ich meine mich dunkel erinnern zu können, daß Sie doch mal darüber zu mir gesprochen haben und daß es Ihnen doch damals ziemlich klar war und daß gerade diese Intervention von Weiczäcker gewesen war, der die damaligen Bemühungen, die an und für sich von Ihrem Amt unterstützt wurden, also restlos in die Quere schoß. Und daß dann Ihr Amt nicht einen Krieg anfangen wollte mit dem allmächtigen Unterstaatsekr. Also in dem Sinn ich an etwas zu erinnern, wäre nicht uninteressant. Sie meinen, daß Weiczäcker sich dagegen stemmte, daß Juden aus Norwegen nach Schweden abmarschierten… auch gegen die dänische Juden, die Schweden aufnehmen wollte… gegen all das hat sich Weiczäcker gestemmt? Ja, der Autor schreibt hier; im Übereinstimmen mit seinem sonstigen Verhalten lehnte es Weiczäcker ab, die Frage überhaupt zu besprechen. Weil wir sonst auch einige Fälle haben wo Weiczäcker immer gegen die Juden war Im Fall Italien sehen wir dann, daß er etwas anderes gemacht hat… Also Weiczäcker war dagegen… also somit gegen unsere Intensionen – gut man kann es so formulieren… Uns war es ja im Augenblick egal wo sie hinkamen, wir hatten Norwegen frei zu machen, wenn sie also in das neutrale Schweden abmarschieren, wäre es uns ja recht gewesen. – – – Wenn sie ein paar Jahre vorher schon gegangen wären, wären wir ja froh gewesen, oder hätte Schweden ein paar Jahre vorher schon uns 30 od 40 000 abnehmen können, wären wir ja froh gewesen, wir hätten sogar noch bezahlt dafür. Also könnte man hier schon sagen, daß Weiczäcker, – wenn das stimmt daß diese Juden von Norwegen nach Auschwitz gekommen sind, was ich ja nicht weiß, wenn das also stimmt, dann wird bestimmt ein Teil davon den Krieg nicht überlebt haben, vielleicht auch alle, – aber jedenfalls hätte sich hier dann Weiczäcker zum Mörder der Juden aufgespielt. Denn wir hätten sie freigelassen Das meinten Sie? – Das stimmt. – – – Das erste Mal, als die Anfrage von Schweden kam, die Kinder aufnehmen zu dürfen, hat sich Stenkraft (?) dagegen gestellt… Warum? (Vorlesen, schnell und undeutlich die Antwort auf den Antrag der schwedischen Regierung)

Draft translation

12 Volume 58 [HW: 601] that now this proposal must have been quasi like a flower in the desert in your eye,, that was 1943 Even if it were so, there existed after all at this time the prohibition of the RF, it would after all not have been possible at all..... Yes but the RF prohibition was now also such that not nevertheless....... you see the Hungarian case and I think I can dimly remember that you did speak to me about it once and that [DEL: xkxx] it was after all rather clear to you at that time and that precisely this intervention of Weizsäcker was the one who shot the efforts of that time, which in and of themselves were supported by your office, thus completely across (thwarted them). And that then your office did not want to start a war with the almighty [TS INS: Under-]State Secretary. So in that sense to remind me of something would not be uninteresting. You mean that Weizsäcker resisted the Jews from Norway marching off to Sweden...also against the Danish Jews, whom Sweden wanted to take in.....against all that Weizsäcker resisted? Yes, the author writes here; in accordance with his otherwise usual conduct Weizsäcker declined to discuss the question at all. Because we otherwise also have some cases where Weizsäcker was always against the Jews. In the case of Italy we see then that he did something else..... So Weizsäcker was against it....thus therefore against our intentions -- good, one can formulate it that way... To us it was at the moment indifferent where they got to, we had to make Norway free, if they thus march off into neutral Sweden, it would after all have been fine with us.---If they had already gone a couple of years earlier, we would after all have been glad, or had Sweden been able to take 30 or 40,000 off our hands a couple of years earlier, we would after all have been glad, we would even have paid for it besides. So one could indeed say here that Weizsäcker, --if it is true that these Jews from Norway came to Auschwitz, which I do not know, if it thus [DEL: xixxtx] is true, then a part of them will certainly not have survived the war, perhaps also all,-- but in any case here then Weizsäcker would have set himself up as the murderer of the Jews. For we would have released them. That is what you meant? --That is right.--- The first time, when the inquiry came from Sweden, to be allowed to take in the children, Stenkraft (?) set himself against it... Why? (Reading aloud, quick and indistinct, the answer to the application of the Swedish government)

Questioner

Now another matter. So far our study has shown that rounding up the Jews in the Reich and in all the occupied territories, and transporting them away, was the sole and exclusive field of work of your office.

Rounding them up and transporting them? No, that is not quite right. In very many countries, rounding them up was not my task. You mean bringing them together—yes, that is right, you are right there…

Questioner

I mean transport now…

Eichmann

But that has nothing to do with rounding them up—the deportation, the transport.

Questioner

That was exclusively your field?

Eichmann

Yes indeed.

Questioner

Norway was occupied territory. You would not have transported people by ship every day?

No, so this was an exceptional matter, something outside the ordinary official routine. Surely you ought to be able to remember it?

Eichmann

Denmark, yes, because a few [? people; typed “old” struck out] jumped into the water on me there… I cannot recall Norway. If Sweden had taken them in, we would gladly have handed them over. If anyone opposed that, it was certainly only to cause us further difficulties.

Questioner

What was the timing of the Norwegian and Danish affairs? Which was done first?

Eichmann

They happened at roughly the same time…

Questioner

That cannot be. Is there no date given for when the Donau sailed, for example?

It sailed on 26 November 1942.

Eichmann

Now, if the Danes should have gone before the Norwegians, then Weizsaecker will have chuckled to himself and said, “Now I will play the same filthy trick on them with the Norwegians.” The difficulties with the Danish Jews were unbelievable. You can hardly believe that those few …00 Jews from Denmark caused us more trouble than the whole Hungarian evacuation.

Questioner

… But the status was quite different with the Danish government…

Eichmann

… I have said it countless times: I do not know who the unfortunate fellow could have been who stirred up this hornets’ nest, which did not interest us in the slightest in terms of numbers, because there was never a Jewish question in the Scandinavian states.

… And if the Norwegians came after the Danes, then Weizsaecker could have played his … game here to perfection. Then it fits exactly that he sabotaged the transfer of the Jews from Norway to Sweden to cause us fresh difficulties. Nothing else.

Open page image and German
Page 602 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 602 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Nun eine andere Sache; es ist doch bis jetzt aus unserem Studium hervorgegangen, daß die Erfassung der Juden im Reichsgebiet, in sämtl. besetzten Gebieten und deren Abtransport, auch nur das einzige und exklusive Arbeitsgebiet Ihres Amtes war Erfassung und Transport? Nein, das stimmt nicht ganz – die Erfassung war in sehr vielen Ländern nicht meine Aufgabe. Sie meinen das Zusammenführen – ja das stimmt, da haben Sie recht…. Ich meine jetzt Transport… Aber das hat doch mit Erfassung nichts zu tun – die Deportation, der Transport Das war ausschließl. Ihr Gebiet?…. Jawohl… Norwegen gehörte zum besetzten Gebiet, – Sie werden nicht jeden Tag Leute transp haben mit einem Schiff? Nein, also war das schon eine außerordentliche Sache, die irgendwie aus dem normalen Dienstkram fiel, da müßten Sie sich doch erinnern können? An Dänemark ja, weil mir da so ein paar [unleserlich] ins Wasser gesprungen sind… An Norwegen kann ich mich nicht entsinnen, wenn Schweden sie aufgenommen hätte, wir sie mit Handkuß abgegeben hätten. Wenn dagegen geschossen wurde, so sicherlich nur deshalb um uns weitere Schwierigkeiten zu bereiten. Wie sieht die Sache zwischen Norwegen und Dänemark zeitlich aus, was wurde zuerst gemacht – Die liefen ungefähr zur selben Zeit… Das kann nicht sein, ist denn kein Datum genannt wann ZB die "Donau" abging Die fuhr am 26 Nov. 1942 Nun wenn die Dänen vor den Norwegern gefahren sein sollten – dann wird sich Weiczäcker ins Fäustchen gelacht haben und sich gesagt haben, nun mache ich ihnen dieselbe Schweinerei mit den Norwegern – denn unglaublich waren die Schwierigkeiten gewesen mit den dänischen Juden – man kann es wohl kaum glauben, daß die paar …OO Juden aus Dänemark uns mehr zu schaffen machten, als die ganze ungar. Evak. …a aber der Status war ein ganz anderer mit der dänischen Regierung…. …t, ich sagte schon x-mal, ich weiß nicht wer der Unglücksmensch gewesen kann …r diesen Vespennest anstieß, daß uns in keinster Weise zahlenmäßig interessierte, denn in den skandinavischen Staaten gab es nie eine Judenfrage. – …d wenn nun noch die Norweger nach den Dänen kamen, dann hat hier Weiczäcker in Rachspiel in größter Vollendung durchspielen können und dann haut es …nau hin daß er die Übernahme der Juden aus Norwegen an Schweden sabotierte uns neuerliche Schwierigkeiten zu bereiten. nichts anderes

Draft translation

[?20?] Volume [?30?] [HW: 602] Now another matter; up to now it has indeed emerged from our study that the registration of the Jews in the Reich territory, in all occupied territories, and their transport away, was also the only and exclusive field of work of your office Registration and transport? No, that is not entirely correct ---the registration was in very many countries not my task. You mean the bringing-together--yes, that is correct, there you are right.... I mean now transport... But that has nothing to do with registration--- the deportation, the transport That was exclusively your area?.... Yes indeed.. [HW: [illegible]] Norway belonged to the occupied territory, -you will not have transp[orted] people every day with a ship? No, so that was indeed an extraordinary matter, which somehow fell out of the normal routine duty-business, there you ought surely to be able to remember? [DEL: [illegible]] Of Denmark yes, because there a couple of [DEL: [?files?]] [HW: [illegible]] jumped into the water for me.....Of Norway I cannot recall, if Sweden had taken them in, we would have handed them over with a hand-kiss. If, on the contrary, there was shooting, then surely only for the purpose of preparing further difficulties for us. How does the matter look between Norway and Denmark in terms of time, what was done first-- They ran approximately at the same time.. That cannot be, is then no date named, when, for example, the "Donau" departed It sailed on 26 Nov. 1942 Now if the Danes were to have sailed before the Norwegians- then Weizsäcker will have laughed into his little fist and said to himself, now I do the same swinishness to them with the Norwegians--for unbelievable had been the difficulties with the Danish Jews- one can hardly believe it, that the few OO Jews from Denmark gave us more trouble than the whole Hungarian evac[uation] [a] but the status was an entirely different one with the Danish government.... [t], I said already x-times, I do not know who the unlucky person can have been [who] bumped into this wasps' nest, that in no way interested us numerically, for in the Scandinavian states there was never a Jewish question.--- [and] if now the Norwegians came after the Danes, then here Weizsäcker was able to play through a [HW: [illegible]]sh-play in greatest perfection and then it fits exactly that he sabotaged the takeover of the Jews from Norway to Sweden [in order] to prepare fresh difficulties for us. nothing else

Questioner

You never had anything to do with Reich Commissioner Terboven?

Yes, he was written to quite often. I had to draft several letters for the Chief of the Security Police and Security Service, addressed to Derhoven.

Questioner

He was a Gauleiter?

Eichmann

Yes, he was Reich Commissioner for Norway.

Yes, I remember. I flew back from Copenhagen to Berlin at the time in a four-engined Condor. It was one of my trips up there to see what was going on. Gauleiter … was on the same aircraft; he had turned up at Copenhagen airport. The military commander Hanecken also appeared at the airfield to see the Reich Commissioner off officially. On that occasion I saw both gentlemen, but I spoke to neither of them. At that time I had no desire to talk to anyone: I had a nasty mess on my hands that other people had cooked up, and now I had to see how to get it settled and cleared up again.

What did I discuss with Mildner in Copenhagen at the time? Well, first I looked into whether it was true that some people had jumped off the ship into the water, and whether it was true that the Jews really were that old. The birth registers had to be checked, and all those things—and I had to discuss all those things with Mildner on the spot. I, who never had to deal with individual cases, now had to concern myself with this. That is why Denmark still rings so horribly in my ears. Apparently Mildner was also very glad that he finally had an officer from the Reich Security Main Office before him, because I can imagine that Mildner—that his a… was quaking with fear too. He was sitting in Copenhagen, heard nothing for days, and was probably trembling for his position and his life, after the world press…

Questioner

He did go to Kaltenbrunner…

Eichmann

Mildner had been dismissed. I still remember…

Questioner

Yes, because of the arrival of your people.

Eichmann

I came up later to put the matter in order.

[overlapping talk]

And he was all amiability and friendliness, and you could hear what a tremendous weight had lifted from his heart, now that he had someone before him who came from the

Open page image and German
Page 603 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 603 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Mit dem Reichskommissar Derhoff (?) haben Sie nie etwas zu tun gehabt? Ja, er wurde öfters angeschrieben – ich mußte einige Schreiben entwerfen für den Chef der Sipo und SD für Derhoven(?) – Er war Gauleiter? Ja, er war Reichskommissar für Norwegen – Ja, ich erinnere – ich fuhr mit einer Maschine damals nach Berlin von Copenhagen zurück, es war eine viermotorige Condor(?) – es war eine meiner Reisen gewesen, um oben einmal nachzusehen, was los war, und da flog in derselben Maschine der Gauleiter T… mit, der sich auf dem Flughafen Copenhagen einfand und der Militärbefehlshaber Hanecken erschien auch am Flugplatz, um den Reichskommissar offiziell zu verabschieden, bei dieser Gelegenheit habe ich diese beiden Herren gesehen, habe aber weder mit dem einen noch mit dem anderen gesprochen. – Denn um diese Zeit hatte ich gar keine Lust mit irgend jemand zu reden, denn ich hatte einen üblen Stunk, den andere ausgekocht hatten und nun mußte ich sehen, wie man ihn nun wieder unter Dach und Fach bringt und wie man ihn bereinigen kann. Was ich damals mit Mildner besprochen habe in Copenhagen? – Nun erst einmal bin ich der Sache nachgegangen, ob es stimmt, daß einige vom Schiff ins Wasser gesprungen sind, ob es stimmt, daß die Juden wirklich so alt sind, – da mußten die Geburtenregister nachgesehen werden und alle diese Sachen – und alle diese Sachen mußte ich mit Mildner an Ort und Stelle besprechen – ich mußte mich hier, der ich nie mit Einzelfällen abzugeben hatte, nun mußte ich hier mich drum kümmern. Deshalb klingt mir auch noch Dänemark greulich in den Ohren nach. – Scheinbar war Mildner auch sehr froh gewesen, daß er nun mal endlich einen Dezernenten vom RSHA vor sich hatte, denn ich kann mir denken, daß Mildner daß ihm auch der A… im Grundeis zerflossen ist, denn er saß in Copenhagen hörte tagelang nichts und zitterte wahrscheinlich um Stellung und Leben, nachdem die Weltpresse… Er fuhr ja zu Kaltenbrunner… Mildner war abgesetzt (?) gewesen,… ich erinnere mich noch Ja, wegen der Ankunft Ihrer Leute Ich kam ja später rauf um die Sache in Ordnung zu bringen (Durcheinander) und da war er liebenswürdigkeit und freundlich gewesen und es fielen ihm hörbar zentnerweise die Steine vom Herzen, daß er nun einen hatte vor sich, der aus der

Draft translation

14 Volume 58 [HW: 603] [HW: Terboven] With the Reich Commissar Derhoff (?) you never had anything to do? Yes, he was written to often - I had to draft several letters for the Chief of the Sipo and SD for Derhoven(?) - He was Gauleiter? Yes, he was Reich Commissar for Norway-- Yes, I remember--I flew with an aircraft back then to Berlin from Copenhagen, it was a four-engine Condor(?) -- it was one of my trips, to look up above [/go up and take a look] once at what was going on, and there flew in the same aircraft the Gauleiter T.... along, who turned up at the Copenhagen airport and the Military Commander Hanecken also appeared at the airfield, in order to officially bid farewell to the Reich Commissar, on this occasion I saw these two gentlemen, but spoke with neither the one nor the other.-- For at this time I had no desire at all to talk with anyone, for I had a nasty mess/stink [Stunk], which others had cooked up and now I had to see how to bring it back under roof and cover [i.e. set it in order] and how to clean it up. What I discussed with Mildner back then in Copenhagen?--- Now, first of all I went into the matter, whether it is true that several jumped from the ship into the water, whether it is true that the Jews really are so old,--there the birth registers had to be checked and all these things ---and all these things I had to discuss with Mildner on the spot--- I had to, here, I who never had to deal with individual cases, now I had to concern myself here with it. That is why Denmark still rings horribly in my ears afterwards.---Apparently Mildner had also been very glad that he now finally had a referent/desk-officer [Dezernenten] from the RSHA before him, for I can imagine that Mildner, that for him too the A..... melted into ground-ice [i.e. was terrified / it "melted in ground-ice", idiom for extreme fear], for he sat in Copenhagen heard nothing for days and probably trembled for position and life, after the world press...... He drove/went indeed to Kaltenbrunner... Mildner had [DEL: [?in any case?]] [HW: [?been dismissed/removed?]] (?) been,..I still remember Yes, because of the arrival of your people I came indeed [DEL: xxxx] up later to put the matter in order (Confusion/commotion) and there he had been amiability and friendly and there fell from him tremendously hundredweights of stones from the heart [i.e. a great weight fell from his heart], that he now had one before him, who came from the

central authority and to whom he was obliged to report, and to whom he could now hand everything over, so to speak. And I then tried to put the matter in order, and I believe I can recall that the Jews then went back. I made that proposal.

Questioner

The author does not mention that here.

Eichmann

I cannot swear to it, but I think that is how it was…

Questioner

Now there is another matter: not only Weizsaecker but also the Reich Commissioner was opposed to emigration, or to the Swedes taking over the Norwegians. In 1943 he complained that the Swedish consulate was very liberal in issuing naturalization certificates.

Eichmann

Yes, Sweden was known for taking a great interest in looking after these people.

Questioner

Otherwise, have you nothing further to say about the Scandinavian affairs?

Eichmann

No, I have said everything there is to say about them in principle.

Questioner

And you had no further conferences with Best?

Eichmann

Yes, I called on Best too in Copenhagen. Now, this discussion with Best, since I can no longer even picture its setting—I'm sure I went there with Mildner—I can only reproduce it from the impression I have of it. Perhaps Best will have said to me, “Well, now see what you have got yourself into. I said so from the start.”

And I will have said, “Gruppenführer, it was an order from the RF (Reichsführer-SS). We had to carry it out.” And I believe I can recall that the first proposal to return the Jews to Denmark came from Best, because it was the only alternative left to us at all if we were to save face. Too much nonsense had been committed for us to maintain the situation as it stood.

I myself supported the return, which at first struck me as something outrageous, something that had never happened before. And I believe I can recall that the Jews from Denmark, apart from the few individual cases who died of natural causes, actually were taken back again. In the meantime I had housed the Jews very well and properly in Theresienstadt, to Dr. Eppstein’s sorrow and distress, so that they would be preserved for me. Thus they were under my control.

I have nothing more to say about it…

Open page image and German
Page 604 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 604 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Zentralinstanz kam, dem er berichterstattungmäßig verhalten war, und dem er nun alles gewissermaßen übergeben konnte. – Und ich habe dann die Sache in Ordnung zu bringen versucht – und ich glaube mich entsinnen zu können, daß die Juden dann zurück gefahren sind, den Vorschlag habe ich gemacht Das bringt der Autor hier nicht – Ich kann es nicht beschwören, aber ich meine es sei so gewesen… Nun kommt noch eine andere Sache, daß nicht nur Weiczäcker, sondern auch der Reichskommissar gegen eine Auswanderung bzw. Übernahme der Norweger an die Schweden eingestellt war. – Er hat sich nämlich darüber beschwert, im Jahre 43, daß das schwedische Konsulat bei Ausgabe von Naturalisierungbescheinigungen sehr liberal sei. – Ja, Schweden war dafür bekannt gewesen sich dieser Leute sehr anzunehmen. Sonst haben Sie weiter zu den Skandinaviengeschichten nichts mehr zu sagen? Nein, ich habe alles gesagt, was grundsätzlich dazu zu sagen wäre. Und mit Best haben Sie weiter keine Konferenzen gehabt? Ja, Best lief ich auch an in Copenhagen – ich kann nun diese Besprechung mit Best, weil ich sie nicht einmal mehr räumlich sehe – sicherlich bin ich mit Mildner hingegangen – ich kann sie nur gefühlsmäßig wiedergeben, vielleicht wird Best mir gesagt haben, tja – das haben Sie nun davon… ich habe es ja gleich gesagt…. Und ich werde gesagt haben; Gruppenf. es ist Befehl des RF gewesen… den mußten wir durchführen und ich glaube mich entsinnen zu können, daß der erste Vorschlag zur Rückführung der Juden nach Dänemark von Best aus ging, weil es die einzige Alternative war, die uns überhaupt noch blieb, um das Gesicht zu wahren, denn es wurde zuviel Blödsinn begangen, als das wir den augenblicklichen Status hatten aufrecht erhalten können. Ich selber befürwortete die Rückführung, die mir anfänglich als etwas ungeheuerliches, bis dahin noch nie dagewesenes erschien und ich glaube mich entsinnen zu können, daß tatsächlich die Juden aus Dänemark, mit Ausnahme der wenigen Einzelfällen, die infolge natürlichen Ablebens verschieden, wieder zurück gefahren worden sind. Zwischendurch hatte ich die Juden sehr gut und ordentlich, zum Leid und Kummer von Dr. Eppstein, in Theresienstadt untergebracht, damit sie mir nur ja erhalten blieben und somit standen sie unter meiner Kontrolle. – Mehr habe ich dazu nicht zu sagen…

Draft translation

15 Volume 58 604 came central authority, to which he was bound in terms of reporting, and to which he now could hand over everything, so to speak.--And I then tried to put the matter in order---- and I believe I can recall that the Jews then were driven back, the proposal I made The author does not bring that here--- I cannot swear to it, but I mean it was so... Now comes yet another matter, that not only Weiczaecker, but also the Reich Commissar was disposed against an emigration resp. taking over of the Norwegians to the Swedes.--He namely complained about it, in the year 43, that the Swedish consulate in issuing naturalization certificates was very liberal.-- Yes, Sweden had been known for taking up these people very much. Otherwise you have nothing further to say about the Scandinavia stories? No, I have said everything that fundamentally would be to say about it. And with Best you had no further conferences? Yes, Best I also ran into in Copenhagen--- I can now this discussion with Best, because I do not even see it spatially anymore---- ----- certainly am I gone there with Mildner-----I can render it only by feeling, perhaps Best will have said to me, well--- that is what you now have of it..... I did say it right away.... And I will have said; Gruppenf. it was order of the RF..... we had to carry it out and I believe I can recall, that the first proposal for the return of the Jews to Denmark went out from Best, because it was the only alternative that remained to us at all, to save face, for too much nonsense was committed, than that we the momentary status could have maintained. I myself advocated the return, which appeared to me initially as something mon- strous, until then never before existing and I believe I can re- call, that indeed the Jews from Denmark, with the exception of the few individual cases, who by natural decease died, again were driven back. In between I had housed the Jews very well and properly, to the sorrow and grief of Dr. Eppstein, in Theresienstadt, so that they would just be preserved to me and thus they stood under my control.-- More I have not to say about it.......

Questioner

We have discussed several times how the Italians acted as protectors of the Jews in Greece, Croatia and the part of France occupied by the Italians. From September 1943 the picture naturally changed, since Italy was in practice treated as an occupied country.

What measures in Italy can you remember that were taken on your part, by your office?

Did I not send Bosshammer down there?

Questioner

The name does not appear here.

Eichmann

Was he not in Verona?

Questioner

In Verona, Sandberger comes up, and the inevitable Dannecker.

Eichmann

Italy was just as much a failure as Belgium and the Nordic states. It was of no interest to me. I can tell you that I remember nothing at all about Italy.

Questioner

Jewish sources give 15,000 Jews who perished, out of a total of 57,000.

Eichmann

No more than 57,000 Jews in Italy—and were those 15,000 all supposed to have been deported to Germany?

Questioner

Yes.

Eichmann

I will not deny it, but I cannot recall anything.

Questioner

Are you aware that when Rome was occupied by German troops, 8,000 Jews in Rome fell into German hands?

Eichmann

No.

Questioner

Are you not aware that Himmler intended to deport these 8,000 Jews to Auschwitz—in this case, your work?

Eichmann

No. What year is this supposed to have been?

Questioner

In September 1943, after the occupation of Italy.

Questioner reads from a book

When the plan arose to deport these 8,000 Jews found in Rome, on 30 September the famous Bishop Hudal, director of the German church in Rome, drew the city commandant General Stahel’s attention to the possibility that the Pope would speak out against the deportations. The latter then decided not to carry out Himmler’s orders without the express consent of the Foreign Office.

[Further reading aloud: too fast and unintelligible on the recording.]

Questioner

Do you remember this matter?

Eichmann

No, nothing at all.

Questioner

Now Weizsaecker turns up again. By then he was already ambassador to the Holy See, and Weizsaecker and his deputy always emphasized that he had always warned the Jews about deportations and the like…

Open page image and German
Page 605 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 605 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Italien; Schon einige Male besprachen wir, daß die Italiener als Beschützer der Juden Teil in Griechenland, Kroatien und in dem von den Italiener besetzten Frankreich aufgetreten sind. Ab Sept 1943 hat sich natürlich das Bild verändert, da Italien praktisch als besetztes Land behandelt wurde. An welche Maßnahmen in Italien können sie sich erinnern, die von Ihrer Seite aus von ihrem Amt aus ergriffen wurden? Habe ich nicht Bosshammer herunter geschickt? Der Name kommt hier nicht vor. War er nicht in Verona? In Verona kommt vor Sandberger und der unvermeidliche Dannecker. Italien ist genau so ein Versager gewesen wie Belgien, wie die nordischen Staaten, es ist für mich uninteressant gewesen – ich kann Ihnen sagen an Italien erinnere ich mich überhaupt nicht. – 15 000 umgekommene Juden, geben Jüd Quellen an. Von insgesamt 57 000 In Italien nicht mehr wie 57 000 Juden – und die 15 000 sollen die alles deportiert worden sein, nach Deutschland? Ja Ich will es nicht abstreiten, aber ich kann mich an nichts entsinnen. Ist Ihnen bekannt daß in Rom, als Rom von den deutschen Truppen besetzt wurde, daß 8 000 Juden den Deutschen in die Hände fielen? Nein Ist Ihnen nicht bekannt, daß Himmler, in diesem Fall Ihre Arbeit, beabsichtigte diese 8 000 Juden nach Auschwitz zu deportieren Nein, in welchen Jahr soll es gewesen sein? Im Sept 1943, nach der Besetzung Italiens Als der Plan auftauchte diese 8000 in Rom aufgefundenen Juden zu deportieren, am 30 Sept machte der berühmte Bischoff Judall (?) Direktor der deutschen Kirche in Rom den Stadtkommandanten General Stahlem darauf aufmerksam, daß sich der Papst möglicherweise gegen die Deportierungen aussprechen würde. Daraufhin beschloß dieser die Befehle Himmlers ohne ausdrückliche Zustimmung des ausw. Amtes nicht auszuführen. (Weiteres Vorlesen zu schnell und unverständlich) Erinnern Sie sich an diese Angelegenheit? Nein gar nichts – Nun taucht Weiczäcker wieder auf, er war damals bereits Botschafter beim Heiligen Stuhl und zwar kehrte Weiczäcker und sein Vertreter immer hervor, daß er immer [unleserlich] die Juden gewarnt habe vor Deportierungen und ähnliches

Draft translation

Band 59 [HW: 605] Italy; Several times already we discussed that the Italians appeared as protectors of the Jews [TS INS: Part] in Greece, Croatia and in the France occupied by the Italians. From Sept 1943 the picture naturally changed, since Italy was practically treated as an occupied country. Which measures in Italy can you recall that were undertaken from your side, from your office? Didn't I send Bosshammer down? The name does not appear here. Wasn't he in Verona? In Verona there appear Sandberger and the unavoidable Dannecker. Italy was just as much a failure as Belgium, as the Nordic states, it was uninteresting for me — I can tell you, of Italy I remember nothing at all.-- 15,000 Jews who perished, Jewish sources state. Out of a total of 57,000 In Italy no more than 57,000 Jews-- and the 15,000 are all supposed to have been deported, to Germany? Yes I don't want to deny it, but I can recall nothing. Is it known to you that in Rome, when Rome was occupied by the German troops, that 8,000 Jews fell into the hands of the Germans? No Is it not known to you that Himmler, in this case your work, intended to deport these 8,000 Jews to Auschwitz No, in which year is it supposed to have been? In Sept 1943, after the occupation of Italy When the plan emerged to deport these 8000 Jews found in Rome, on 30 Sept the famous Bishop Judall (?), director of the German church in Rome, drew the attention of the city commandant General Stahlem to the fact that the Pope would possibly speak out against the deportations. Thereupon the latter resolved not to carry out Himmler's orders without express consent of the Foreign Office. (Further reading aloud too fast and unintelligible) Do you remember this matter? No, nothing at all----- Now Weiczaecker turns up again, he was at that time already ambassador to the Holy See and indeed Weiczaecker and his deputy always emphasized that he had always warned the Jews of deportations and similar

Questioner reads from a book

What is certain is that he forwarded a copy of Bishop Hudal’s protest to the Commander of the Security Police, Obersturmbannführer Kappler. And Kappler believed this warning came from the Pope himself, and the whole thing was a bluff by Judall.

I recall nothing of that.

Questioner reads from a book

Then Weizsaecker writes to the Foreign Office that the Pope, although reportedly pressed from many sides, has not allowed himself to be drawn into any demonstrative statement against the deportation of the Jews.

Questioner

[Further reading aloud: unintelligible on the recording and fast.]

Eichmann

No, I cannot remember anything…

Questioner

Now it is repeatedly emphasized that the Jews were warned in time to look for hiding places, that many were kept hidden in monasteries, and that many fled to the south, which was already occupied by the Allies.

Eichmann

When was all this?

Questioner

In the autumn of 1943.

Eichmann

And when did the deportations start rolling?

Questioner

They started rolling in October. Then it says that

Questioner reads from a book

fewer than 1,000 of them were arrested on 16 October, of whom 615 arrived in Auschwitz on 22 October.

Eichmann

That may well be right; I can no longer remember it.

Questioner reads from a book

And from then on the Jews were said to be like hunted game in Italy. A key witness, Max. …, reports that altogether 1,127 Jews were used from Rome to Auschwitz, and only 15 of them returned.

Questioner

Can you also remember the shooting of the 350 hostages?

Eichmann

I got that from the newspaper. I had nothing to do with it. I only learned of it long after the war, through the Kappler trial.

Questioner

Are you aware that Jews were arrested at Largomaggiore after the occupation of Italy, and were drowned there by the police and the SS?

Eichmann

No, I know nothing about it.

Questioner reads from a book

Incidents of this kind were more frequent. But this haphazard killing was then replaced by systematic extermination. At the beginning of October Martin Sandberger, former commander of the task forces (Einsatzgruppen) in Russia, took over the leadership of the Gestapo in Verona, while the apparently indispensable Dannecker became commissioner for Jewish affairs in Italy, in October 1943.

Eichmann

I cannot recall anything. Perhaps it is possible that I remember nothing because the whole business was such a trifle that I did not concern myself with it at all, and my permanent deputy took this matter off my hands. Denmark was a trifle too, but it became an international stink.

Open page image and German
Page 606 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 606 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Sicher ist, daß er eine Abschrift des Protestes des Bischoffs Judall an den Bef. der Sipo an den Obstbaf. Kappler weiter geleitet. Und Kappler glaubte, diese Warnung käme vom Papst selbst, und das Ganze war ein Bluff Judalls. Ist mir nichts erinnerlich Dann schreibt Weiczäcker an das auswärtige Amt, der Pabst hat sich obwohl dem Vernehmen nach von vielen Seiten bestürmt, zu keiner demonstrativen Äußerung gegen den Abtransport der Juden hinreißen lassen – (Weiteres Vorlesen; unverständlich und schnell… Nein ich kann mich an nichts erinnern… Nun wird immer wieder betont, daß die Juden rechtzeitig gewarnt wurden, Verstecke aufzusuchen, daß viele in Klöstern versteckt gehalten wurden, daß viele nach dem Süden geflüchtet sind, der bereits von den Allii besetzt war. Um welche Zeit ist das alles gewesen? Im Herbst 43 Und wann sind die Deportationen angerollt? Die rollten an im Oktober – dann heißt es weniger als 1000 von ihnen wurden am 18 Okt verhaftet, von denen 615 am 22 Okt. in Auschwitz ankamen. Es kann schon stimmen, erinnern kann ich mich nicht mehr daran Und von da an seien die Juden gewesen wie gehetztes Wild in Italien. Ein Kronzeuge Max. berichtet daß im Ganzen von Rom nach Auschwitz 1127 Juden gebraucht wurden und davon nur 15 zurückkehrten. Können Sie sich auch an die Erschießung erinnern der 350 Geiseln? Das habe ich aus der Zeitung entnommen, damit habe ich nichts zu tun gehabt. Erst lange nach dem Kriege habe ich durch den Prozeß Kappler das erfahren. Ist Ihnen bekannt daß Juden am Largomaggiore nach der Besetzung von Italien verhaftet worden seien und dort von der Polizei und SS ertränkt worden seien? Nein, nichts ist mir bekannt. Vorkommnisse dieser Art waren häufiger. Aber dieses regellose Morden wurde dann abgelöst durch eine planmäßige Vernichtung. Anfang Oktober übernahm Martin Sandberger, früherer Bef. der Einsatzgruppen in Rußland, die Leitung der Gestapo in Verona. Während der offenbar unentbehrliche Dannecker Judenkommissar für Italien wurde, im Okt 1943 Ich kann mich an nichts entsinnen – vielleicht ist es möglich, daß ich mich deshalb an nichts erinnere, weil ja die ganze Sache eine solche Lappalie war daß ich mich um diese ganze Sache überhaupt nicht gekümmert habe und mir diese Sache mein ständiger Vertreter abgenommen hat. – Dänemark war auch eine Lappalie, wurde aber zu einen internationalen Stunk. –

Draft translation

Certain is that he forwarded a copy of the protest of Bishop Judall to the Commander of the Sipo to Obstbaf. [Obersturmbannführer] Kappler. And Kappler believed this warning came from the Pope himself, and the whole thing was a bluff of Judall's. Nothing is recollectable to me. Then Weizsäcker writes to the Foreign Office, the Pope has, although according to report pressed from many sides, not let himself be carried away into any demonstrative utterance against the deportation of the Jews-- (Further reading aloud; unintelligible and fast... No, I cannot remember anything... Now it is emphasized again and again that the Jews were warned in time to seek out hiding places, that many were kept hidden in monasteries, that many fled to the South, which was already occupied by the Alli[es]. At what time was all this? In the autumn of 43. And when did the deportations get rolling? They got rolling in October--then it says fewer than 1000 of them were arrested on the 18th of Oct, of whom 615 arrived in Auschwitz on the 22nd of Oct. It may well be correct, I can no longer remember it. And from then on the Jews were said to be like hunted game in Italy. A key witness Max. [surname omitted] reports that in total from Rome to Auschwitz 1127 Jews were used [gebraucht] and of them only 15 returned. Can you also remember the shooting of the 350 hostages? That I took from the newspaper, I had nothing to do with it. Only long after the war did I learn that through the Kappler trial. Is it known to you that Jews were arrested at the Largo Maggiore [Lago Maggiore] after the occupation of Italy and were drowned there by the police and SS? No, nothing is known to me. Occurrences of this kind were more frequent. But this irregular murdering was then superseded by a systematic extermination. At the beginning of October Martin Sandberger, former Commander of the Einsatzgruppen in Russia, took over the leadership of the Gestapo in Verona. While the apparently indispensable Dannecker became Jewish Commissar for Italy, in Oct 1943. I can recall nothing--perhaps it is possible that I therefore remember nothing, because indeed the whole thing was such a trifle that I did not concern myself at all with this whole matter and my permanent deputy took this matter off my hands.-- Denmark was also a trifle, but became an international stink.-

Questioner

Now, perhaps “a trifle” is not the right word, because transports rolled to Auschwits.

Questioner reads from a book

Ten thousand alone have been established.

Well, it was a trifle after all. That must have been the case, because I can remember absolutely nothing about it. Günther took all the small matters off my hands.

Questioner

It says here about one transport—a transport that Eichmann possibly organized himself, which would mean that he was in northern Italy at the time?

Eichmann

No, I was never down there. Never, never.

Questioner

It is claimed here that 600 Jews, some of them from Tripoli, were deported on 22 February 1944, and that only 126 men and women among them survived the selections in Birkenau. It is claimed that this transport may have been organized by Eichmann himself.

Eichmann

No. In February 1944 I was sitting in the woods 60 or 80 kilometres east of Berlin. I had been in Italy privately at Easter 1939, and then I was not in Italy again until 1950. I travelled through Italy in 1937 when I came from Egypt ….

Questioner

Does the camp … mean anything to you? The Italian Jews were concentrated there, and a second camp … near Bozen?

Eichmann

No, nothing… Only in 1945 was I at the Brenner, but on the Austrian side ….

Questioner reads from a book

The transports from Gris went to Mauthausen, in 1944.

Eichmann

I must tell you that I can hardly remember, and also that in the year 194… I was hardly carrying out my duties as a section officer.

Questioner

Were you told that Jewish transports had to turn back because they could not get through the Brenner owing to the Allied bombing raids?

Eichmann

No, I know nothing about that…

Questioner

Did you have anything to do with the solution of the Jewish question in Trieste?

Eichmann

No, I had nothing to do with that either. In 1944 I was hardly carrying out my duties. My permanent deputy had to do all this, not I, so I am not informed about any of these things. Besides, Günther was not obliged to report everything to me, since he is not allowed to ask me for a decision anyway.

Questioner

And did Globoeniss approach you in any way as Higher SS and Police Leader in Trieste?

Eichmann

No, never. He did not correspond with me. Perhaps with IV B 4; that may be, but I know nothing about it…

Questioner

And in Rome, with Kappler?

Eichmann

No, not that either. I only know that Kappler was an important man for Müller. How, why, for what reason, I do not know. I only kept hearing the name Kappler.

Questioner

Good, then let us conclude.

Open page image and German
Page 607 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 607 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Nun Lappalie ist vielleicht nicht richtig, denn Transporte rollten nach Auschwitz, 10 000 sind allein festgestellt worden Na ja, es war doch eine Lappalie gewesen, so wird es auch sein, weil ich mich an so gar nichts entsinnen kann, die kleinen Sachen nahm Günter mir alle ab. Hier heißt es von einem Transport – ein Transport den Eichmann möglicherw. selbst organisierte, demzufolge er damals in Norditalien war? Nein, ich war nie unten – nie, nie. Es wird hier behauptet von 600 Juden, einige von ihnen aus Tripolis, wurden am 22 Feb 44 deportiert und von diesen überlebten nur 126 Männer und Frauen die Selektionen in Birkenau und von diesem Transport wird behauptet, daß er möglicherw. von Eichmann selbst organisiert wurde. Nein, Feb 44 da saß ich im Wald 60 od 80 Km ostwärts von Berlin Ich war in Italien gewesen Ostern 1939 privat – und bin dann erst wieder in Italien gewesen 1950 und bin 1937 durch Italien gefahren als ich von Ägypten h… Ist Ihnen das Lager ein Begriff, dort wurden die italienischen Juden konzentriert, als zweites Lager bei Bozen? Nein, nichts…… Nur 1945 war ich am Brenner gewesen, aber auf der östr. Seit… Die Transporte aus Gris(?) gingen nach Mauthausen, 1944 Ich muß Ihnen sagen, daß ich kaum entsinne und aber auch daß ich im Jahre 194… kaum amtierte als Referent – Hat man Ihnen berichtet, daß Judentransporte zurück gehen mußten, weil sie wegen den allii Bombenangriffen den Brenner nicht passieren konnten? Nein, davon weiß ich nichts… Haben Sie mit der Lösung der Judenfrage in Triest zu tun gehabt? Nein, auch damit habe ich nichts zu tun gehabt. 1944 amtierte ich ja kaum, mein ständiger Vertreter hatte ja dies alles zu tun, nicht ich deswegen bin ich über alle diese Dinge gar nicht orientiert. Außerdem war Günter gar nicht verhalten, mir alles zu berichten, weil er ja sowieso von mir keine Entscheidung verlangen darf. Und Globoeniss hat Sie irgendwie angegangen als Höh SS Pol Führer in Triest? Nein, nie – mit mir hat er keinen Schriftwechsel geführt, vielleicht mit IV B 4 mag sein, aber ich weiß von nichts… Und in Rom mit Kappler Nein, auch nicht, ich weiß nur, daß Kappler ein wichtiger Mann für Müller war, – wie warum wieso, daß weiß ich nicht – ich hörte nur immer wieder den Namen Kappler. – Gut dann wollen wir abschließen –

Draft translation

3 Band 59 607 Now a triviality is perhaps not right, because transports rolled to Auschwitz, 10,000 alone have been established Oh well, it was after all a triviality, so it will be too, because I can remember absolutely nothing at all about it, Guenter took all the small matters off my hands. Here it says of one transport--- a transport that Eichmann possibl[y] organized himself, according to which he was in Northern Italy at the time? No, I was never down there-- never, never. It is claimed here of 600 Jews, some of them from Tripoli, [they] were deported on 22 Feb 44 and of these only 126 men and women survived the selections in Birkenau and of this transport it is claimed that it was possibl[y] organized by Eichmann himself. No, Feb 44 there I was sitting in the woods 60 or 80 km eastward of Berlin I had been in Italy at Easter 1939 privately- and then was only again in Italy in 1950 and drove through Italy in 1937 when I [came] from Egypt h[m] Is the camp a concept to you, there the Italian Jews were concentrated, as a second camp near Bozen? No, nothing...... Only in 1945 was I at the Brenner, but on the Austrian side The transports from Gris(?) went to Mauthausen, 1944 I must tell you that I hardly recall and but also that in the year 194[4] I hardly officiated as regent [Regerent]-- Has one reported to you that Jew-transports had to go back, because they could not pass the Brenner on account of the Alli[ed] bombing raids? No, of this I know nothing... Did you have to do with the solution of the Jewish question in T[r]iest? No, with that too I had nothing to do. In 1944 I hardly officiated after all, my permanent deputy had after all to do all this, not I therefore I am not oriented at all about all these things. Besides Guenter was not at all obliged to report everything to me, because he anyway may not require any decision from me. And did [?Globocnik?] approach you in any way as Higher SS Pol[ice] Leader in Trieste? No, never--with me he conducted no correspondence, perhaps with IV B 4 may be, but I know of nothing... And in Rome with Kappler No, that neither, I only know that Kappler was an important man for Mueller, -how why wherefore, that I do not know-I only heard again and again the name Kappler.- Good, then we want to conclude---

Questioner

Can you tell us something about the measures taken against the Jews in Holland?

In Holland we had SS-Brigadeführer Harstfer as Commander of the Security Police and Security Service. Then in The Hague there was a Government Councillor Zoepf, who had a very close personal connection with Harster. Somehow it was then decided at a higher level that this Government Councillor Zoepf was to handle Jewish affairs in Holland and, for that purpose, to get in touch with the responsible section of the Reich Security Main Office.

Questioner

Was there not also a colleague called aus der Fuenten?

Eichmann

Yes, I remember, aus der Fuenten. I believe he was Zoepf’s deputy. He was a very simple-minded fellow, not blessed with the slightest intellectual gifts… I came to know Zoepf somehow—perhaps he came to the Reich Security Main Office and introduced himself as the appointed officer for Jewish affairs in the occupied Dutch territories. At any rate he was there, and he received his guidelines from my section.

Harster was very much occupied with the radio deception operation he was running with England, which had resulted in his securing a certain number of enemy agents who had parachuted in. Consequently Harster had little time to involve himself personally in the solution of the Jewish question. Zoepf therefore had a fairly free hand. I know that Zoepf often approached the Reich Commissioner for the occupied Dutch territories, Seisinquart, directly, and also the economics minister there, Fischböck. But Zoepf also had Dutch bodies with executive powers at his disposal.

Zoepf was an extraordinarily soft man, distinguished by only one thing: his zeal, punctuality and loyalty as an official. While he was acting on his own, Zoepf had been able to produce more difficulties than practical results. Numerical quotas were agreed on, ranging from 20,000 to 50,000, but the actual result was usually not even 10 percent. I myself had to travel to The Hague some five or six times to get things moving again through Zoepf and the Commander, stiffen their backbones, and set them on the offices responsible for the legislative underpinning and the executive orders.

And no sooner had a figure of 20,000 to 40,000 been settled than I could establish with certainty that in reality only 10 to 15 percent were being transported away. It dragged on like that for a long time, to transport those few thousand Jews away from Holland.

Open page image and German
Page 608 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 608 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Können Sie uns über die Maßnahmen die gegen die Juden in Holland unternommen wurden, etwas sagen? In Holland hatten wir als Befehlshaber der Sipo und SD den SS Brigf. Harstfer. Dann war in Den Haag ein Reg Rat Zoepf, der mit Harstner einen sehr engen persönl Konex hatte. Irgendwie wurde dann auf einer höheren Ebene bestimmt, daß dieser Reg Rat Zoepf, in Holland die Judenangelegenheiten zu bearbeiten hätte, und sich dieserhalb mit dem zuständigen Referat des RSHA ins Benehmen zu setzen habe Gab es nicht auch noch einen Mitarbeiter aus der Fünden? Ja, ich entsinne mich, aus der Fünden, ich glaube es war der Vertreter von Zoepf, – er war ein sehr einfältiger Bursche und mit keinerlei Geistesgaben auch nur in etwa begnadet… – Zoepf lernte ich nun irgendwie kennen, sei es daß er zum RSHA kam und sich dort vorstellte, als der bestellte Judenreferent in den besetzten niederländischen Gebieten, er war jedenfalls da und er bezog seine Richtlinien von meinem Dezernat. Nachdem Harstner zeitlich sehr in Anspruch genommen war, durch das Funkspiel, das er mit England trieb, und daraus als Resultat doch eine gewisse zahlenmäßig Sicherstellung hatte von abgesprungenen feindlichen Fallschirmagenten, dadurch hatte Harstner wenig Zeit sich persönlich für die Lösung der Judenfrage miteinzusetzen. Zoepf hatte also ziemlich freie Hand und ich weiß daß Zoepf oftmals selbst an den Reichskommissar für die beset. niederl. Gebiete Seisin quart herantrat und auch an den dortigen Wirtschaftsminist. Fischböck. Zoepf hatte aber auch holl. Organe die mit Ex-Gewalt ausgestattet waren an der Hand. Zoepf war ein außerordentlich weicher Mann, den nur eines auszeichnete, seinen Beamteneifer, seine Beamtenpünktlichkeit und seine Beamtentreue. Zoepf hatte in der Zeit seines Alleinschaltens mehr Schwierigkeiten als praktische Resultate zeitigen können. – Es wurden Zahlenkontigente vereinbart, die in der Größenordnung zwischen 20 bis 50 000 lagen, der praktische Endeffekt war in der Regel nicht einmal 10% gewesen. Ich selber mußte an die 5 bis 6mal nach Den Haag fahren, um hier immer wieder über Zoepf und über den Bef. die Sachen anzukurbeln, und ihnen das Rückgrat stärken, und sie dergestalt wieder auf die Stellen zu hetzen, die für die legislative Untermauerung und für die Ex-Anordnungen zuständig waren, Und kaum war wieder eine Zahl von 20 bis 40 000 abgehandelt, so konnte ich mit Sicherheit feststellen, daß in Wirklichkeit nur 10 – 15% abtransportiert werden. So zog sich das eine lange Zeit hin – um die paar tausend Juden von Holland abzutransportieren. –

Draft translation

4 Volume 69 Can you tell us something about the measures that were undertaken against the Jews in Holland? In Holland we had as Commander of the Sipo and SD the SS-Brigade[führer] Harster. Then in The Hague there was a Government Councillor [Regierungsrat] Zoepf, who had a very close personal connection with Harster. Somehow it was then determined at a higher level that this Government Councillor Zoepf was to handle the Jewish affairs in Holland, and that he for this reason was to enter into communication with the responsible section of the RSHA. Was there not also another co-worker from the Fünden? Yes, I recall, from the Fünden, I believe it was the deputy of Zoepf,--he was a very simple-minded fellow and not in the least gifted with any intellectual talents...--I now somehow came to know Zoepf, be it that he came to the RSHA and introduced himself there, as the appointed Jewish affairs officer [Judenreferent] in the occupied Dutch territories, in any case he was there and he obtained his guidelines from my department. After Harster was very much taken up in terms of time, through the radio-game [Funkspiel] that he ran with England, and had as a result a certain numerical securing of dropped enemy parachute agents, through this Harster had little time to involve himself personally in the solution of the Jewish question. Zoepf thus had rather a free hand and I know that Zoepf often himself approached the Reich Commissioner for the occupied Dutch territories Seyss[-Inquart] [HW: [?meist?]] and also the economics minister there Fischböck. But Zoepf also had Dutch organs at hand that were equipped with executive power [Ex-Gewalt]. Zoepf was an extraordinarily soft man, whom only one thing distinguished, his official's zeal, his official's punctuality and his official's loyalty. Zoepf had [DEL: xxx] in the time of his acting alone been able to produce more difficulties than practical results,-- Numerical contingents were agreed upon, which lay in the order of magnitude between 20 to 50,000, the practical end effect was as a rule not even 10% [of that]. I myself had to travel to The Hague some 5 to 6 times, in order here again and again to get the matters going through Zoepf and through the Commander, and to strengthen their backbone, and in this way again to spur them on to the offices that [DEL: xxx] were responsible for the legislative underpinning and for the executive orders [Ex-Anordnungen], [DEL: x] And scarcely was a number of 20 to 40,000 dealt with again, then I could establish with certainty that in reality only 10-15% are transported away. Thus this dragged on for a long time---in order to transport away the few thousand Jews from Holland.--

Questioner reads from a book

110,000 Jews out of a total of 140,000 were transported away from Holland ….

That many—110,000 Jews. Well, I did say that I had to go to The Hague five or six times to get things moving again. So it did succeed after all…

Now, I have already told you, my efforts in Holland to sabotage the interventions extended from the—to the point of contempt for death …—“Reichstafel” (?), to the powerful one in the old, dusty but quite proper and bourgeois Hotel De Indes, to trips to Amsterdam. There Zoepf, by virtue of the powers of his chief, the Commander of the Security Police and Security Service, had a section officer who had been taken away from the Commander of the Security Police. He was an Hstf. (Hauptsturmführer); his name escapes me. He was a very shrewd and experienced detective, far ahead of Zoepf, and in my eyes at the time he was the right man for Amsterdam. He seized the right moment, set the right police measures in motion, and achieved the right results.

Questioner

It was Lages…

Eichmann

Yes, right, Lages, that was his name. Hstf. (Hauptsturmführer) Lages.

In conclusion, I can state that the BDS (Commander of the Security Police and Security Service) always showed the greatest readiness to serve, that Government Councillor Zoepf was in no way behind him, and that the man who controlled the centre of Jewish life in Holland, namely Amsterdam, was always the right man in my eyes too. But once Zoepf had worked out the legal underpinning for Holland—that suited his particular abilities—and pushed it through the official channels with many difficulties, he was no longer the right man.

Practical work eluded him. He could carry legislative matters through and conduct negotiations reasonably well, but he was not a practical man. So I soon sent him up a whole string, so to speak, of advisers on Jewish affairs who could be spared and had become available. Of these I remember the head of the Z. f.J.A. (Central Office for Jewish Emigration), Hstf. (Hauptsturmführer) Brunner, and I believe Hstf. (Hauptsturmführer) Burger too…

Questioner

Aus der Fuenten?

Eichmann

Yes, I believe I sent him too. He does not come from Harster’s office. One day Müller told me to find a place for aus der Fuenten. He had done his crash course with me, going through all the subject areas. Then I sent him up to Zoepf as support and as an aide, because Zoepf was already complaining about staffing difficulties anyway.

Novak was in The Hague for a time too.

Open page image and German
Page 609 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 609 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Es wurden 110 000 Juden von 140 000 Juden insgesamt aus Holland abtransportier… Doch soviel, 110 000 Juden – nun ich sagte ja, ich mußte 5 bis 6 mal nach De… Haag um die Sache immer wieder anzukurbeln. So hattes also doch Erfolg. – Nun ich sagte Ihnen schon, meine Bemühungen in Holland die Interventionen zu sabotieren, die erstreckten sich von der bis zur Todesverachtung …(?) [unleserlich] [unleserlich] jüd. Reichstafel(?) bis zu dem mächtigen, in dem alten verstaubten, aber so… recht ordentlichem und bürgerlichen Hotel De Indes, m der Wehr, bis zu Fahrten nach Amsterdam, wo Zoepf kraft seiner Vollmachten seines Chefs, nämlich des Bef. d. Sipo u SD, dort einen Dezernenten hatte, der dem Kommandeur der Sipo entrissen ward, ein Hstf, Name ist mir entfallen, es war ein sehr schlauer und sehr erfahrener Kriminalist gewesen, der Zoepf um vieles voraus war und der auc… für mich, für meine damaligen Augen auch der richtige Mann für Amsterdam gewesen ist, der den richtigen Augenblick erfaßte und auch die richtigen polis. Maßnahmen in die Wege leitete, und auch die richtigen Erfolge hatte. Lages war es… Ja, richtig, Lages, so hieß er… – Hstf. Lages – Abschließend kann ich feststellen, daß der BDS immer größte Dienstbereitschaft an den Tag legte, daß der Reg Rat Zoepf ihm in nichts nachstand, und daß der Mann der den Schwerpunkt des jüd. Lebens in Holland, nämlich Amsterdam, kontrollierte, immer auch in meinen Augen, der richtige Mann gewesen war. Nun aber Zoepf einmal, und das lag in seiner Eigenschaft die Gesetzesmäßi… Untermauerung für Holland erarbeitet hat, sie auf dem Instanzenweg, mit vielen Schwierigkeiten durchgepaukt hat, daß Zoepf ab dem Augenblick nicht mehr der geeignete Mann war, weil ihn die Praxis mied, er konnte wohl die legislativen Angelegenheiten, durchziehen, er konnte Verhandlungen relativ ordentlich führen, aber ein Mann der Praxis war er nicht und deshalb habe ich ihm alsbald einen ganzen Rattenschwanz sozusagen von entbehrlichen, freigewordenen Judenberater raufgeschickt. Als solche sind mir in Erinnerung, der Leiter der Z.f.J. A., den Hstf Brunner, ich glaube auch den Hstf Burger,… Aus der Fünden? Ja, ich glaube den habe ich auch geschickt – der kommt nicht aus der Dienststell… von Harstner – eines Tages sagte mir Müller, ich solle aus der Fünden unterbringen. Aus der Fünden hatte bei mir seinen Schnellkurs gemacht, in dem er durch sämtl. Sachgebiete lief – und dann schickte ich ihn als Unterstützung und als Atlatus rauf zu Zoepf, weil Zoepf sowieso schon jammerte über Personalschwierigkeiten. – Auch Novak war mal eine Zeit in Den Haag gewesen.

Draft translation

5 Volume 59 [HW: 609] 110,000 Jews out of 140,000 Jews in total were transported away from Holland. But so many, 110,000 Jews--- well I did say, I had to go 5 to 6 times to The Hague to keep getting the matter going again. So it did have success.------- Now I already told you, my efforts in Holland to sabotage the interventions, they extended from the to the point of contempt for death ..(?) [HW: [?exterminated?]] [HW: MT] Jew. Reich-board(?) up to the mighty, in the old dusty, but qui[te] proper and bourgeois Hotel De[HW: [?Indes, at the guard?]] , down to trips to Amsterdam, where Zoepf by virtue of his authority of his chief, namely the Cmdr. of the Sipo and SD, had a case officer there, who was wrested from the Commander of the Sipo, an Hstf, the name has slipped from me, he had been a very shrewd and very experienced criminalist, who was far ahead of Zoepf and who als[o] for me, for my eyes at the time was also the right man for Amsterdam had been, who grasped the right moment and also set the right pol. measures in motion, and also had the right successes. [HW: X] It was Lages... Yes, right, Lages, that's what he was called.....-Hstf. Lages---- [HW: Crim. Comm. or Councillor] In conclusion I can establish that the BDS always displayed the greatest readiness to serve, that the Gov. Councillor Zoepf was in no way inferior to him, and that the man who controlled the focal point of Jew. life in Holland, namely Amsterdam, always in my eyes as well, had been the right man. But now once Zoepf, and that lay in his capacity, worked out the statutory underpinning for Holland, pushed it through the official channels, with many difficulties, that from that moment Zoepf was no longer the suitable man, because practice avoided him, he could indeed carry through the legislative matters, he could conduct negotiations relatively properly, but a man of practice he was not and therefore I soon sent up to him a whole rat's tail so to speak of dispensable, freed-up Jewish advisers. As such I recall, the head of the Z.f.J.A. , the Hstf Brunner, I believe also the Hstf Burger,.... [HW: all these were] Aus der Fünden? [HW: X] [HW: subordinated to the Bdt.S.,] [HW: (Zoepf)] Yes, I belieeve I sent him too---- he does not come from the office of Harstner--- one day Mueller told me, I should place Aus der Fünden. Aus der Fünden had done his crash course with me, in which he ran through all the subject areas --and then I sent him up as support and as adlatus to Zoepf, because Zoepf was already whining anyway about personnel difficulties.-- Novak too had been in The Hague for a time.

Now, from that mass of men I sent up there, I would not want to commit myself about one individual or another, and I would like to include Novak and Bosshammer here too.

Questioner

Bosshammer carried out some deportations in Italy in 1945.

Eichmann

So Bosshammer was in Italy after all. Then he can hardly have been in Holland as well. So I did remember correctly.

The game up there was then played in such a way that, after I sent reinforcements, Zoepf only had to smooth the way for settling the theoretical matters, through his BDS (Commander of the Security Police and Security Service) to the individual desk officers of the Reich Commissioner for the occupied Dutch territories, and to the Higher SS and Police Leader in that territory, Rauter.

I still remember very clearly how the difficulties were once again very great and difficulties were being made on the Dutch side. But that did not happen very often. We had more difficulties from our own German economic offices, because they feared a setback to the Dutch economic quota. I know for certain that once, if not twice, I went with Harster to Rauter and had to give Rauter an address on my chief’s instructions. The address was about the patience of the Reich Security Main Office now approaching exhaustion: we had done everything, everything had now been put right in staffing terms, and it was now forcefully demanded that a solution to the question in the occupied Dutch territories should finally be achieved.

And I will probably have had a special programme for Rauter, which I handed over to him, set out point by point. He only needed to follow the individual points to issue the appropriate orders and, if he did not yet have the necessary powers, obtain them in order to carry out the individual points I set out for him. Rauter was a very decent, pleasant person. We got on very well. He was the second of the men who formed the Styrian Homeland Defence (Heimatschutz), in contrast to Prince Starhemberg in Austria. The first was called Dr. Pfrimer. He had left the Home Guard (Heimwehr) to set up the Homeland Defence (Heimatschutz) in Austria, and Rauter was his associate, his military adviser. These leaders of the nationalist Homeland Defence (Heimatschutz), as distinct from the Christian Social Home Guard (Heimwehr), were taken over by the SS. That is how Rauter moved into the SS.

Questioner

Rauter joined the party as early as 1932.

Eichmann

That whole Homeland Defence (Heimatschutz) outfit was nationalist. The Home Guard (Heimwehr) had gone through the same development and formation as the German-Austrian Front Fighters’ Association had gone through some time earlier,

Open page image and German
Page 610 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 610 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Nun aus diesem Massenangebot das ich dort hinaufschickte, wobei ich mich an der ein od anderen nicht festhalten möchte, und ich möchte auch hier Novak und Bosshammer verstehen – Bosshammer hat 1945 in Italien einige Deportationen durchgeführt Also war Bosshammer doch in Italien, dann kann er auch kaum in Holland gewesen sein, habe ich mich doch recht erinnert. Nun ist dieses Spiel oben so gespielt worden daß Zoepf, nachdem ich Verstärkung schickte, nur noch die Wege zu ebenen hatte zur Erledigung der theoretischen Angelegenheiten und zwar über seinen BDS zu den einzelnen Sachbearbeitern, des Reichskommissars f.d. beset. niederl. Gebiete, und zum Höh. SS und Pol. Führer in diesem Gebiet Rauter. Ich entsinne mich noch sehr deutlich als die Schwierigkeiten mal wieder sehr groß waren, und von holl. Seite aus Schwierigkeiten gemacht wurden, aber es ist nicht zu oft vorgekommen, vielmehr Schwierigkeiten hatten wir von den eigenen deutschen Wirtschaftsstellen. weil sie einen handicap von dem holl. Wirtschaftssoll befürchteten, und ich weiß bestimmt, daß ich einmal, wenn nicht sogar zweimal mit Harstner bei Rauter war, und Rauter im Auftrag meines Chefs einen Vortrag halten mußte. Der Vortrag hatte zum Thema, daß die Geduld des RSHA sich nunmehr der Erschöpfung nähere, wir alles getan hätten, personaltechn. nunmehr alles ausgeglichen sei und nunmehr mit Rasanz verlangt würde, daß endlich die Lösung der Frage in dem beset. niederl. Raum gelöst wird. Und ich werde wohl ein Spezialprogramm gehabt haben für Rauter, das ich ihm übergeben habe, punktmäßig gegliedert, sodaß er nur nach den einzelnen Punkten zu verfahren brauchte, um seine entsprechenden Anordnungen zu verteilen, falls er die entsprechenden Vollmachten noch nicht gehabt hat, sich die einzelnen Vollmachten zu besorgen, um den einzelnen Punkten, die ich ihm anführte nachzukommen. Rauter war ein sehr ordentlicher, netter Mensch, wir verstanden uns sehr gut, er war der Zweite der Leute die den steyrischen (?) Heimatschutz aufstellten, im Gegensatz zu Fürst Starhemberg in Östreich, der Erste hieß Dr. Pfrimer der an sich aus der Heimat Wehr heraustrat, um den Heimatschutz aufzustellen in Östreich und Rauter war sein Nebengeordneter, sein militärischer Berater, aus dem Heimatschutz, nationalen im Gegensatz zu der christl. sozial. Heimwehr, wurden diese Führer zum Heimatschutz von der SS übernommen, und so avancierte Rauter zur SS. Rauter trat ja schon im Jahr 32 der Partei bei Dieser ganze Laden "Heimatschutz" war ja national gewesen. Die Heimwehr hatte ja dieselbe Entwicklung und Gestaltung durchgemacht, wie sie einige Zeit vorher die deutsch-östr. Frontk. Vereinig. durchmachte,

Draft translation

[?Band 59?] [HW: 610] Now out of this mass offering that I sent up there, whereby I do not want to hold fast to the one or the other, and I would also like here to understand Novak and [illegible] Bosshammer,-- Bosshammer carried out some deportations in Italy in 1945 So Bosshammer was in Italy after all, then he can hardly have been in Holland either, if I have remembered correctly. Now this game was played up top in such a way that Zoepf, after I sent reinforcement, only still had to level the paths for the settlement of the theoretical matters, and namely via his BDS to the individual case-officers, of the Reich Commissioner for the occupied Netherlands territories, and to the Higher SS and Police Leader in this territory, Rauter. I still remember very clearly when the difficulties were once again very great, and difficulties were made from the Dutch side, but it did not occur too often, [DEL: [illegible]] rather we had difficulties from our own German economic offices, because they feared a handicap to the Dutch economic quota, and I know for certain that I was once, if not even twice, with Har[t]ner at Rauter's, and Rauter had to give a lecture on the orders of my chief. The lecture had as its theme, that the patience of the RSHA was now nearing exhaustion, that we had done everything, in personnel-technical terms everything was now balanced out, and that now with vehemence it was demanded that finally the solution of the question in the occupied Netherlands space be solved. And I will probably have had a special program for Rauter, which I handed over to him, articulated point by point, so that he only needed to proceed according to the individual points, in order to distribute his corresponding orders, [DEL: [illegible]] [TS INS: in case] he had not yet had the corresponding powers of authority, to procure for himself the individual powers of authority, in order to comply with the individual points that I cited to him. Rauter was a very orderly, nice person, we understood each other very well, he was the "second" of the people who set up the Styrian (?) Heimatschutz, in contrast to Starmberg [HW: Fürst Starhem[berg]] in Austria, the first was called Dr. [?Reismann?] [HW: Pfrimer] who himself stepped out of the Heimwehr, in order to set up the Heimatschutz in Austria, and Rauter was his subordinate, his military advisor, out of the Heimatschutz, [TS INS: national] in contrast to the Christian-social Heimwehr, these leaders were taken over into the Heimatschutz by the SS, and thus Rauter advanced to the SS. Rauter joined the party already in the year 32 [HW: ✗ is from Dr. [?Langer?]!!] This whole outfit "Heimatschutz" had after all been national. The Heimwehr had after all gone through the same development and formation as the German-Austrian Front-fighters' Association had gone through some time before,

I brought up this little digression to explain why Rauter and I got on so well. I came from Linz; he was from Steyr. So there was a good relationship from the outset, because you were glad for once to be able to speak in dialect. You did not feel you had to be so very careful and watch every word, so you could make negotiations in a conference a little easier for yourself. And I can still remember that the negotiations with Rauter were very proper and also very successful.

Then, after my negotiations, I went back again, crawled into my web like a spider, and waited for what was to come. I marched off with the figures they gave me, took Novak to task in Berlin, threw the figures at him and chased him off to the R.V.M. (Reich Transport Ministry). His task was to get the necessary trains within the time I had agreed and draw up the timetable. Then the trains had to roll. And they rolled, and there were many, many difficulties: they were suddenly interrupted, and I had to overturn the timetable again, much to the distress of the Reich Transport Ministry. They had to draw up not only this timetable arrangement in some form; a whole string of other timetable conferences and timetable arrangements depended on it, so they had to reorganize their entire structure, which was geared to this whole cycle of trains.

That happened very, very often in Holland, or in connection with Holland.

Questioner

So you were at Rauter’s two or three times altogether?

Eichmann

Once for certain, perhaps twice, perhaps even three times. I do not know.

Questioner

But only at his office?

Eichmann

Yes, only at his office.

Questioner

And you never found that Rauter wanted a certain moderation of this evacuation programme?

Eichmann

Certainly. Rauter was one of the authorities who had certain misgivings, and when I went to Rauter with Harster, it was not to pay a friendly visit but to dispel those misgivings.

Questioner

Do you still remember what kind of misgivings he expressed?

Eichmann

It was very difficult in this country to deport Jews with Dutch citizenship. The Dutchman does not recognize a Jew with Dutch citizenship; he recognizes a Dutchman, or someone who is not a Dutchman. And if someone is a Dutchman, other Dutchmen make difficulties when another nation wants to go after him.

Open page image and German
Page 611 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 611 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Ich habe diese kleine Abschwenkung angeführt um zu erklären, warum ich mich mit Rauter eben so gut verstand. Ich kam aus Linz, er war Steyr, so war schon von Haus aus das gute Verhältnis da, weil man mal ganz froh war wenn man in Mundart hat sprechen können, man hat sich nicht gefühlt, daß so sehr vorsichtig sein muß und auf jedes Wort aufpassen muß, so konnte man sich auch in einer Konferenz die Verhandlung etwas leichter machen, und ich mich so auch noch erinnern kann, daß die Verhandlungen mit Rauter sehr ordentlich und auch sehr erfolgreich waren. Dann bin ich nach meinen Verhandlungen wieder zurückgefahren und habe mich wie eine Spinne ins Netz verkrochen und habe die Dinge erwartet, die da kommen sollten, bin mit den Zahlen, die man mir nannte abmarschiert, habe mir in Berlin Novak vorgeknöpft, habe ihm die Zahlen an den Kopf geschmissen, habe ihn zum R.V.M. verjagt und seine Aufgabe war es nun innerhalb der Zeit die ich vereinbart hatte, die nötigen Züge zu bekommen, den Fahrplan zu erstellen und dann mußten ja die Züge rollen. Und sie rollten und es gab viele, viele Schwierigkeiten, wo sie dann plötzlich abrupt unterbrochen wurden, ich dann wieder den Fahrplan umstoßen mußte, sehr zum Leidwesen des RVM, denn sie mußten ja nicht nur diese Fahrplanordnung in irgendeiner Form zusammenstellen, sondern damit hing ja ein ganzer Rattenschwanz von anderen Fahrplankonferenzen und Fahrplanordnungen, sodaß sie ihr ganzes Gebilde, das nun auf diesen ganzen Zugturnus abgestellt war, wan wieder umlegen mußten. Das war in Holland oder bei Holland sehr, sehr oft der Fall gewesen. Sie sind also im Ganzen 2 od 3 mal bei Rauter gewesen? Einmal bestimmt, vielleicht 2 vielleicht auch 3 mal, ich weiß es nicht, Aber nur auf seiner Dienststelle? Ja, nur auf seiner Dienststelle Und Sie haben bei Rauter nie festgestellt, daß er doch eine gewisse Mäßigung diese Evakuierungsprogrammes wünschte? Sicherlich, denn Rauter war eine der Stellen gewesen, die gewisse Bedenken hatten und wenn ich mit Harstner zu Rauter ging, so galt es nicht hier einen Freundschaftsbesuch zu machen, sondern hier diese Bedenken zu zerstreuen. Erinnern Sie sich noch an die Art der Bedenken die er geäußert hat. Es war nun in diesem Land sehr schwierig Juden mit holl. Staatsangeh. zu deportieren, der Holländer kennt keinen Juden mit holl Staatsangeh, er kennt einen Holländer, oder er kennt einen der kein Holländer ist. Und wenn da nun ein Holländer ist, so macht der andere Holländer Schwierigkeiten wenn eine andere Nation diesem Holländer an den Wagen fahren will.

Draft translation

[HW: 611] I have brought up this little digression in order to explain why I got along so well with Rauter precisely. I came from Linz, he [DEL: [illegible]] was Steyr, so [HW: [illegible]] the good relationship was there already from the outset, because one was quite glad when one could speak [DEL: [illegible]] [HW: be able] in dialect, one did not feel that [HW: one] must be so very careful and watch every word, so one could also make the negotiation somewhat easier in a conference, and I can also still remember that the negotiations with Rauter [DEL: [illegible]] were very proper and also very successful. Then, after my negotiations, I drove back again and crept [away] like a spider into the web and awaited the things that were supposed to come, marched off with the figures that were named to me, took Novak to task in Berlin, threw the figures at his head, chased him off to the R.V.M., and his task was now, within the time that I had agreed upon, to obtain the necessary trains, to draw up the timetable, and then the trains had to roll. And they rolled and there were many, many difficulties, where they [sic: si] were then suddenly abruptly interrupted, [and] I then had to overturn the timetable again, much to the distress of the RVM, for they had not only to put together t h i s timetable arrangement in some form, but rather a whole rat's tail of other timetable conferences [sic: konferenzne] and timetable arrangements hung on this, so that they had to rearrange their whole structure again, which was now set to this whole train cycle. That was the case very, very often in Holland or near Holland. So you were in all 2 or 3 times at Rauter's? Once for certain, perhaps 2 perhaps also 3 times, I don't know it. But only at his office? Yes, only at his office. And with Rauter you never established that he did after all wish a certain moderation of this evacuation program? Certainly, for Rauter had been one of the offices that had certain misgivings, and when I went with Harstner to Rauter, it was not a matter here of making a friendship visit, but rather of dispelling these misgivings here. Do you still remember the nature of the misgivings that he expressed. It was now very difficult in this country to deport Jews with Dutch citizenship, the Dutchman knows no Jew with Dutch citizenship, he knows a Dutchman, or he knows one who is not a Dutchman. And when there is now a Dutchman, then the other Dutchman makes difficulties if another nation wants to go after this Dutchman [idiom: drive at his cart].

Questioner

But you did deport Jews with Dutch citizenship…

Yes, of course, but people resisted that at first.

Questioner

And Rauter resisted it too?

Eichmann

Probably not Rauter personally, but he also had to deal with the Dutch police, and apparently he felt the resistance there very strongly.

Questioner

Do you no longer remember how he expressed his individual misgivings, or how…

Eichmann

No, not in detail any more.

Questioner

Or whether he spoke of the political situation or some large-scale political plan?

Eichmann

No, I cannot recall it.

Questioner reads from a book

Here in a letter—it says he wrote it to Himmler—he states that he would never allow a deportation train to be cancelled: “the way is gone”. Just as he declared in a speech to SS leaders: “I will gladly atone in heaven with my soul for the crimes I have committed here against the Jews. Whoever has recognized the significance of Jewry as a people and as a race cannot act differently from us.”

Eichmann

Please, I said expressly—not personally, but that he merely expressed misgivings because he obviously had to reckon with the Dutch police and had to see things clearly there too. And I said that I had to dispel Rauter’s misgivings.

Questioner

But why did you have to dispel misgivings about the Dutch police?

Eichmann

An express order from the RF (Reichsführer-SS). That was enough.

Questioner

Do you not know whether Rauter and Kaltenbrunner had a particularly close friendship?

Eichmann

I do not know of one, but I know nothing to the contrary either. I cannot recall having to be careful when writing to Rauter.

Questioner

Are you aware that a Jewish ghetto was created in Holland on the East European model?

Eichmann

Yes, I am aware of that.

Questioner

And that the Jews were concentrated?

Eichmann

Zoepf arranged all that. They were concentrated in the ghetto in Amsterdam.

Questioner

Or what other kinds of camps were set up there? Have you heard of a peat-cutting camp?

Eichmann

I do not know about that. It may be that the Jewish Council of Elders set up this peat-cutting camp itself, just as the Reich Association in Germany or the Council of Elders in Theresienstadt founded various labour camps. I do not think the Security Police concerned itself with peat-cutting camps.

Open page image and German
Page 612 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 612 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Aber Sie haben doch auch Juden holl. Staatsangeh. deportiert – Ja, natürlich, aber dagegen sträubte man sich doch anfangs. Und Rauter sträubte sich auch dagegen? Rauter als Mensch wohl nicht, aber er hatte doch auch mit holl. Polizei zu tun, und scheinbar hat er dort die Resistenz sehr verspürt. Erinnern Sie sich nicht mehr, wie er nun seine einzelnen Bedenken zum Ausdruck brachte oder wie… Nein im einzelnen nicht mehr Oder daß er von der polit. Lage oder einer polit. Großplanung sprach? Nein, ich kann mich nicht entsinnen. Hier in einem Brief wird behauptet, er schrieb ihn an Himmler; daß er niemals zulassen würde, daß ein Deportationszug ausfiele "der Weg ist weg". Jan. 44 Genau so wie er in einer Rede SS Führer gegenüber erklärte; "ich will gern im Himmel mit meiner Seele dafür büßen für das was ich hier gegen die Juden verbrochen habe, wer die Bedeutung des Judentums als Volk und als Rasse erkannt hat, kann nicht anders handeln als wir." Bitte, ich sagte ausdrücklich – nicht als Mensch, sondern nur Bedenken geäußert hat, weil er offenbar mit der holl. Poliz. rechnen mußte, und dort ja auch die Sachen klar sehen mußte. Und ich sagte, daß ich bei Rauter Bedenken zerstreuen mußte. Aber wieso mußten Sie Bedenken bzgl. der holl Poliz. zerstreuen? Ausführlicher Befehl des RF, das genügte. Ist Ihnen nicht bekannt ob Rauter und Kaltenbrunner ein besonders enges freundschaftl. Verhältnis hatten. Ist mir nicht bekannt, aber auch nichts gegenteiliges. Ich kann mich nicht entsinnen, daß ich aufpassen mußte, bei Schreiben an Rauter Ist Ihnen bekannt, daß in Holland nach osteuropäischen Muster ein Judenghetto geschaffen wurde? Ja, ist mir bekannt Und daß die Juden zusammen gefaßt wurden? Das hat Zoepf alles veranlaßt, im Ghetto in Amsterdam wurden sie zusammen gefaßt Oder was sonst für Lager hat man dort gemacht? Haben Sie was von Torfstechlager gehört? Das weiß ich nicht – Es kann ja sein, daß der jüd. Ältestenrat selbst dies Torfstechlager angelegt hat, genau wie diese Reichsvereinig. in Deutschland oder der Ältestenrat in Theresienstadt verschied. Arbeitslager gründete. Ich glaube nicht, daß die Sipo sich mit Torfstechlagern abgegeben hat.

Draft translation

But you did also deport Jews of Dutch nationality--- Yes, of course, but at first there was resistance against that. And Rauter also resisted it? Rauter as a person probably not, but he did also have to deal with Dutch police, and apparently he strongly sensed the Resistance there. Do you no longer remember how he then expressed his individual objections or how...... No, not in detail anymore. Or that he spoke of the political situation or of some large-scale political planning? No, I cannot recall. Here in a letter it is claimed, he wrote it to Himmler; that he would never allow that a deportation train fal[DEL: xxxxxx] [HW: l] "the road is gone/lost". [HW: 2/1] [HW: Jan. 44] Exactly as he declared in a speech before SS leaders; "I will gladly atone in Heaven with my soul for that which I have committed here against the Jews, whoever has recognized the significance of Jewry as a people and as a ra[DEL: sxx] [HW: ce] cannot act otherwise than we did." Please, I said expressly---- not as a person, but only expressed objections, because he evidently had to reckon with the Dutch police, and there indeed also had to see things clearly. And I said that with Rauter I had to dispel objections. But why did you have to dispel objections regarding the Dutch police? Detailed order of the RF [Reichsführer], that was sufficient. Is it not known to you whether Rauter and Kaltenbrunner had a particularly close friendly relationship. It is not known to me, but nothing to the contrary either. I cannot recall that I had to be careful, in writing to Rauter Is it known to you that in Holland a Jewish [HW: Council of Elders?] was created after the Eastern European model? Yes, it is known to me And that the Jews were rounded up/concentrated? Zoepf arranged all that, in the ghetto in Amsterdam they were concentrated Or what other kind of camps did one make there? Have you heard anything of a peat-cutting camp? That I do not know-----It may well be that the Jewish Council of Elders itself set up this peat-cutting camp, just as this Reich Association in Germany or the Council of Elders in Theresienstadt founded various labor camps. I do not believe that the Sipo [Security Police] concerned itself with peat-cutting camps.

Questioner

No, it did not originate with the Jews themselves, because it says here that

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

from the very beginning these atrocities aroused more than merely passive sympathy among the n… population.

Questioner

Do you know anything about the raid in the historic Jewish quarter in Amsterdam on 9 February 1941?

No, it will have been a local measure.

Questioner

But you must know about it, because after this raid the first Jewish transport left Holland, but the railway workers went on strike. You were supposed to get ten or twelve trains.

Eichmann

No, I know nothing about it.

Questioner

It says that dock workers from the islands of Kaltenburg, Wittenburg and Osterburg came to the Jews’ aid. In the course of this a certain Henry…, a Dutch policeman, was wounded and later died. And this funeral was used for further unrest.

Eichmann

I am sorry, but I cannot remember anything…

Questioner

Are you not aware that after these incidents, on Himmler’s orders, 400 hostages were arrested—Jews?

Eichmann

No, I know nothing about it. My section probably was not responsible for it at all. We only dealt with the deportations; we had nothing to do with any acts of sabotage. There was another section for that, and for taking hostages too… I only remember the business with the Berlin exhibition, where it was established that Jews were involved. Müller instructed me to tell Berlin, Vienna and Prague that the heads were to come here. Then Müller informed them, on orders from the RF (Reichsführer-SS), that Jews had been involved in the affair, in the sabotage at the Berlin exhibition, that six or eight Jews as …

Questioner

Yes, you have told us that already.

Did you ever have difficulties with Seyss…?

Eichmann

Not I, but the people from the BDS (Commander of the Security Police and Security Service). You cannot call them difficulties. Those gentlemen, Seyss…, Fischböck and so on, were fundamentally willing to do everything the Reich demanded. In that respect they were beyond reproach. But they had their missions to carry out, and one little cogwheel meshes with the next. If you authorize it and make all the Jews available at one stroke, a few cogwheels drop out, the machine no longer runs as it did, and you have difficulties. So these people are obliged to work it in calmly, slowly, step by step, as suits their economic or political intentions. [Handwritten note at the foot of the sheet, with a mark at Fischböck: He is still alive!]

Open page image and German
Page 613 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 613 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Nein, von den Juden selber ist es nicht ausgegangen, denn es steht hier, gleich von Anbeginn riefen diese Grausamkeiten mehr als bloß passiven Symphatie von seiten der … Bevölkerung her. Wissen Sie etwas von der Razzia im historischen Judenviertel in Amsterdam am 9. Feb 1941? Nein, wird eine lokale Maßnahme gewesen sein Das muß Ihnen aber bekannt sein, denn nach dieser Razzia ist der erste Judentransport aus Holland abgerollt, aber da wurde von den Eisenbahner gestreikt, Sie sollten wohl 10 oder 12 Züge bekommen. Nein, ist mir nichts bekannt. Es heißt daß die Dockarbeiter den Juden zur Hilfe kamen von den Inseln Kaltenburg, Wittenburg und Osterburg, – dabei wurde ein gewisser Henry… ein holl. Poliz. verwundet und starb später Und dieses Begräbnis wurde zu weiteren Unruhen benützt. Tut mir leid, aber ich kann mich an nichts erinnern… Ist Ihnen nicht bekannt, daß nach diesen Vorfällen, auf Befehl Himmler 400 Geiseln festgenommen wurden, Juden? Nein, ist mir nichts bekannt. – Wahrscheinlich war mein Dezernat dafür gar nicht zuständig, wir hatten ja nur die Deportationen aber wir hatten nichts mit evtl. Sabotagen zu tun, dafür gab es ein anderes Dezernat. Auch für die Erfassung von Geiseln… Ich erinner mich nur noch an die Geschichte mit der Berliner Ausstellung, wie da festgestellt worden ist, daß Juden dran waren, da hat mir Müller aufgetragen ich habe Berlin, Wien und Prag mitzuteilen, daß die Leiter herkommen sollen, und da wurde ihnen von Müller eröffnet, auf Befehl des RF, da an der Geschicht an der Sabotage in der Berliner Ausstellung seien Juden beteiligt gewesen, daß 6 oder 8 Juden als … Ja, haben Sie schon erzählt. Haben Sie einmal Schwierigk. mit Seis… gehabt? Ich nicht, aber die Leute vom BDS – Schwierigk. kann man nicht sagen, diese Herrschaften Seis… …, Fischböck usw. sie waren ja an sich primär bereit all das zu tun, was das Reich verlangte – in der Beziehung waren sie unantastbar. Aber die Leute haben nun ihre Missionen zu erfüllen gehabt und da spielt ein Zahnrädchen in das andere. Erlauben sie nun und geben sie nun auf Anhieb sämtl Juden frei, dann fallen ihnen einige Zahnräder aus und die Maschine läuft nich mehr so und sie haben Schwierigkeiten. Also sind diese Leute verhalten, ruhig, langsam, Zug um Zug, so wie es ihnen in ihren wirtschaftspolit. oder polit. Intensionen genehm erscheint, einzubauen.

Draft translation

No, it did not originate from the Jews themselves, for it says here, right from the very beginning these atrocities called forth more than merely passive sympathy on the part of the m............. .......population. Do you know anything about the raid in the [haetreisch — unclear] Jewish quarter in Amsterdam on 9 Feb 1941? No, it will have been a local measure. But that must be known to you, for after this raid the first Jew[ish] transport out of Holland rolled off, but then the railwaymen went on strike, you were supposed to get 10 or 12 trains. No, nothing is known to me of that. It is said that the dock-workers came to the aid of the Jews from the islands Kattenburg, Wittenburg and Oosterburg,--in the process a certain Henry... a Dutch policeman was wounded and died later. And this funeral was used for further unrest. I am sorry, but I can remember nothing..... Is it not known to you that after these incidents, on Himmler's order 400 hostages were arrested, Jews? No, nothing is known to me.--- Probably my section was not even responsible for that, for we only had the deportations but we had nothing to do with possible sabotage acts, for that there was another section. Also for the seizure of hostages.... I only still remember the story with the Berlin exhibition, how it was established there that Jews were involved [lit. "were on it"], then Mueller charged me that I was to inform Berlin, Vienna and Prague that the heads should come here, and then it was disclosed to them by Mueller, on order of the RF [Reichsführer], that in this affair in the sabotage at the Berlin exhibition Jews had been involved, that 6 or 8 Jews as ... ...... Yes, you have already told that. Did you once have difficulties with Seis... ? Not I, but the people from the BDS---difficulties one cannot say, these gentlemen Seis..... ..., [HW: ⊗] Fischboeck etc. they were indeed in themselves primarily willing to do all that which the Reich demanded--in that respect they were beyond reproach. But the people now had their missions to fulfil and there one little cogwheel plays into the other. If you now permit and now release all the Jews at one stroke, then some cogwheels fall out for them and the machine no longer runs so [well] and they have difficulties. So these people are held back, calm, slow, step by step, so as it seems agreeable to them in their economic-political or political intentions, to build in. [HW: ⊗ He is still alive !!!!] [HW: X]

Their art was to curb the impatience of the Security Police somewhat—it was driven by the order of the RF (Reichsführer-SS)—without losing face with the RF (Reichsführer-SS). Neither Fischböck nor Seyss… lost face.

Questioner

Did you also negotiate with Sei in… fairly often?

Eichmann

No, never, not once. Not with Fischböck either, although I knew him from Austria; but I no longer had anything to do with him.

Questioner

And with Schmidt, the Party Chancellery’s representative in Holland?

Eichmann

Yes, I had dealings with Schmid, but I no longer know where or how.

Questioner

But in that capacity he had nothing to do with Jewish affairs?

Eichmann

No. I applied pressure through the BDS (Commander of the Security Police and Security Service), or, when that was not enough, through Rauter. I never really went beyond Rauter; I did not need to.

Questioner

It says here that Seyss… and Rauter took a position on the arrest of hostages, and both declared that it was politically unwise.

Eichmann

But I had nothing to do with the arrest of hostages. That was another section. I have said so countless times already.

Questioner

What do you say to this characterization of Rauter, in prison after 1945?

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

It points to a man with strongly emphasized but professionally limited notions of honour, who was not unpleasant in manner, but was decidedly stupid and a worshipper of force.

Eichmann

I would not call him decidedly stupid. Rauter was a man who took orders, though he only carried out the order of the RF (Reichsführer-SS), whom he recognized as his superior. As I have already said, it was enough if I could show him that the RF (Reichsführer-SS) had given the order. That dispelled all his misgivings and also gave him the strength to gallop over the hurdles of a Reich Commissioner’s misgivings, carrying the Reich Commissioner over those hurdles with him.

Questioner

I believe that all the more firmly, since Seyss… and Rauter could surely talk things out quite well personally.

Eichmann

No, they were two different characters…

But both came from Austria (Ostmark), and both Austrians in very high positions were swimming alone on their little island in the so-called sea of “Prussians” (Pifken), as people say. I say this because I am an Austrian myself, and because in my office I had some Austrian personnel and some from the Old Reich (Altreich). There were often frictions between the Austrians and the so-called “Prussians” (Pifken). My assessors and government councillors, in particular, had to needle one another. Wunsche less so: he was fairly indifferent to all that. Not Suhr; Suhr was a pronounced—I would almost say nasty—type of “Prussian” (Pifke). Bosshammer less so: he was a Rhinelander. At first he made himself unpleasantly conspicuous with his big mouth. Only later, through the evenings of music-making, did he win the …

Open page image and German
Page 614 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 614 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Um die Ungeduld der Sipo, sie trieb ja der Befehl des RF, diese Ungeduld in etwa zu zügeln, ohne dabei beim RF das Gesicht zu verlieren, war ihre Kunst. Es verlor kein Fischböck das Gesicht, und auch kein Seis … Haben Sie mit Sei in. … auch öfters verhandelt? Nein, nie, nicht ein einziges Mal. auch nicht mit Fischböck, allerdings den kannte ich von Östr. her, hatte aber nichts mehr mit ihm zu tun. Und mit Schmidt, Beauftr. der Parteikanzlei. in Holland. Ja, mit Schmid hatte ich zu tun gehabt, aber wo und wie weiß ich nicht mehr. Aber er hatte als solcher in den Judenangelegenheiten nichts zu machen? Nein – ich habe meine Hebel geansetzt beim BDS oder wenn das nicht genügt hat, bei Rauter, über Rauter hinaus eigentlich nie, brauchte ich nicht. Hier heißt es, daß Seis. und Rauter zu der Geiselfestnehmung Stellung genommen haben, und beide haben erklärt, daß es politisch unklug sei. Aber ich habe doch mit den Geiselfestnahmen nichts zu tun gehabt, es doch ein anderes Dezernat – x-mal schon gesagt. – Was sagen Sie zu den Charakterisierung von Rauter (im Gefängnis nach 45) Man weist auf einen Mann mit stark betonten, aber beruflich beschränkten Ehrbegriffen, der kein unangenehmes Wesen hatte, aber ausgesprochen dumm und ein Gewaltanbeter war. Ausgesprochen dumm möchte ich ihn nicht bezeichnen – Rauter war ein Befehlsempfänger, hat allerdings nur den Befehl des RF ausgeführt, den anerkannte er als seinen Vorgesetzten. Ich sagte ja schon, es genügte wenn ich ihm nachweisen konnte, der RF hat befohlen, das zerstreute sämtl. Bedenken bei ihm und das gab ihm auch die Kraft über die Hürden der Bedenken eines Reichskommissars hinwegzugaloppieren, um den Reichskommissar über diese Hürden hinweg mitzureißen. Das glaube ich, um so sicherer, da Seis und Rauter sich sicher persönl. recht gut aussprechen konnten Nein, es waren zwei verschied. Charaktere… Aber beide sind aus der Ostmark und beide Ostmärker auf sehr hohem Posten sind auf dem Inselchen allein geschwommen in dem sogen. Meer der Pifken, wie man es sagt. Ich sage das deswegen, weil ich ja auch [unleserlich] Östreicher bin, und weil ich auf meiner Dienststelle, zT. Ostmärker hatte und zT. Altreich Personal hatte, da kam es oftmals zu Reibereien zwischen den Ostmärker und den sogen. Pifken, besonders meine Assesoren und Reg. Räte mußten da sticheln, – Wunsche weniger, ihm war das alles ziemlich egal, Surr nicht, Surr war ein ausgesprochener (fast möcht ich sagen übler Typ) des Pifkes… Bosshammer weniger, er war Rheinländer, er hat sich am Anfang durch seine große Schnauze unliebsam bemerkbar gemacht… erst später durch die Musizierabende [unleserlich] an die Sympathie…

Draft translation

To curb somewhat the impatience of the Sipo — it was driven by the order of the RF [Reichsführer] — this impatience, without thereby losing face before the RF, was her/your art [Kunst]. No Fischboeck lost face, and neither did any Seis... Did you also negotiate more often with Sei[ss-Inquart]...? No, never, not a single time. Not with Fischboeck either, though I knew him from Austria [Oestr.], but I no longer had anything to do with him. And with Schmidt, representative [Beauftr.] of the Party Chancellery in Holland. Yes, I had had dealings with Schmid[t], but where and how I no longer know. But as such he had nothing to do in Jewish affairs? No—— I applied my levers at the BDS or, when that did not [HW: ge]suffice, at Rauter; beyond Rauter, actually never, I did not need to. Here it says that Seis[s] and Rauter took a position on the taking of hostages, and both declared that it was politically unwise. But I had nothing to do with the hostage-takings, that was after all another section [Dezernat]—— said x-times already.—— What do you say to the characterization of Rauter (in prison after '45)? One points to a man with strongly emphasized but professionally limited notions of honor, who had no unpleasant nature, but was decidedly stupid and a worshipper of force [Gewaltanbeter].; I would not want to describe him as decidedly stupid—— Rauter was an order-receiver [Befehlsempfaenger], carried out, however, only the order of the RF, whom he recognized as his superior. I already said, it sufficed if I could prove to him, the RF has ordered [it], that dispersed all his reservations and that also gave him the strength to gallop past the [DEL: effect] [HW: hurdles] of the reservations of a Reich Commissioner, in order to sweep the Reich Commissioner along past these hurdles. That I believe, all the more surely, since Seis[s] and Rauter could surely talk things out with each other quite well personally. No, they were two different characters..... But both are from the Ostmark [Austria] and both Ostmarkers in very high posts were swimming alone on the little island in the so-called Sea of the Pifken [derogatory for Prussians/Germans of the Old Reich], as one says. I say that because I too am [HW: [illegible]] an Austrian, and because at my office [Dienststelle] I had partly Ostmarkers and partly Old Reich [Altreich] personnel, there it often came to frictions between the Ostmarkers and the so-called Pifken, especially my assessors [Assessoren] and government councillors [Reg. Raete] had to needle [each other] there,——Wunsche less, to him it was all rather indifferent, Surr not, Surr was a decided (I would almost say a nasty type) of the Pifke...Bosshammer less, he was a Rhinelander, at the beginning he made himself unpleasantly noticeable through his big mouth [grosse Schnauze].....only later, through the music evenings [Musizierabende] [illegible], [he came] into [my/their] sympathy

of the other section members, so that later I heard nothing more about it. And so I took each individual seriously to task who reproached someone else for being Austrian, or, conversely, for being a “Prussian” (Pifke). I stepped in, and I know this too because I fought that plague. That is why I know so well that when one … an Austrian in that sea of Old Reich Germans, someone whose official position was roughly comparable to one’s own, one could speak to him much more easily and openly than to someone who came from a different German region (Lebensraum). And so I believe that Seyss… and Rauter, both of whom held very high positions in the occupied Dutch territory and were often surrounded by people who were not southern Germans, must have got on quite well together, although they had opposite natures.

Questioner

But they come from two entirely different camps. Seyss… was Catholic …, and Rauter came from the German-national camp.

Eichmann

But that does not mean that they did not, after all, get on quite well in the Netherlands.

Questioner

Do you know nothing about the incident in Amsterdam in which a German police patrol was doused with vitriol, after which another 250 Jews were arrested as hostages?

Eichmann

No, I cannot remember that. Perhaps I read it, but I do not recall it.

Questioner

Then there were really wild incidents: strikes by workers in Amersterdam, crowds gathering, the police firing into the crowd, and so on.

Eichmann

Yes, I cannot know about that. The primary matter here is the attack, so the department whose section dealt with attacks was responsible for it. The same applied to the strike business: none of that was my task…

Questioner

That was precisely what led to the dispatch of the 3… Jewish hostages to Mauthausen. Do you know nothing about it?

Eichmann

No, I was not responsible for taking hostages, and if another section arrested Jewish hostages, they were sent separately and did not travel on the deportation trains. Everyone picked up by other sections came to the Reich separately. If a matter was not purely a Jewish affair concerned with the solution of the Jewish question—and thus, for me, with deportation—I had nothing to do with those transports either; I was not involved at all. The department responsible for each particular subject area was responsible for all the questions that arose, whether they concerned Jews or non-Jews. And after all, I was not the transport man for every Tom, Dick or Harry…

Open page image and German
Page 615 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 615 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Der anderen Referatsmitglieder, sodaß ich später nichts mehr weiter hörte, und so habe ich mir hier jeden einzelnen vorgeknöpft, im Ernst, der hier einen anderen vorwarf das Östreichertum oder umgekehrt, das Pifkentum. Da bin ich dazwischen gefahren und ich weiß es auch, weil ich ein Bekämpfer dieser Seuche gewesen bin, deshalb weiß ich es zu gut, daß wenn man mal einen Ostmärker tar… im Meer der Altreichdeutschen, der in etwa dieselbe Dienststellegröße einnahm als man selbst, daß man mit dem viel leichter und offener sprechen konnte, als wenn das jemand gewesen war, der aus einem anderen deutschen Lebensraum herauskam. Und so glaube ich, daß Seis und Rauter, die beide auf einem sehr hohen Posten standen in dem niederl. beset. Gebiet und vielfach umgeben war von nicht Süddeutschen, daß die sich hier bestimmt recht gut vertragen haben obgleich sie gegensätzlicher Natur gewesen sind. Sie kommen aber aus zwei ganz verschiedenen Lagern, Seis… war katholi… und Rauter aus der deutsch-nationalen. Das will aber nicht besagen, daß sie sich doch nicht in den Niederlanden recht gut verstanden haben. Ist Ihnen über den Vorfall in Amsterdam nichts bekannt, bei der eine deutsche Polizeipatrouille mit Vitriol übergossen wurde, worauf wieder 250 Juden als Geiseln verhaftet wurden Nein – ich kann mich nicht darauf erinnern – vielleicht habe ich es gelesen, aber es ist mir nicht erinnerlich. Darauf in kam es dann zu wirklich wilden Vorfällen. Streiks der Arbeiter in Amsterdam, Menschenauflauf, Schießen der Polizei in die Menge usw. Ja, das kann ich nicht wissen, das primäre ist hier das Attentat, also ist der Dezernat dafür zuständig gewesen, dessen Referat Attentate bearbeitete. Ebenso bei den Streikangelegenheit, war alles nicht meine Aufgabe… Gerade das hatte zur Folge die Verschickung der jüd. 300 Geiseln nach Mauthausen Ist Ihnen nichts bekannt? Nein, ich hatte ja nicht Geiseln zu erfassen und wenn ein anderes Dezernat jüd. Geiseln festgenommen hat, so wurden die extra verschickt und fuhren nicht mit den Deportationszügen. Alle Personen die von anderen Dezernaten aufgegriffen wurden, sind extra nach dem Reich gekommen. Wenn so eine Sache nicht eine reine Judenangelegenheit war zur Lösung der Judenfrage, für mich also betr. Deportation, dann hatte ich auch nichts mit solchen Abtransporten zu tun, dann war ich gar nicht mit einbegriffen. Für alle aufkommenden Fragen war der zuständige Dezernat des jeweiligen Sachgebietes zuständig, ob das nun Juden waren oder Nicht-Juden, – und schließlich war ich ja kein Transportonkel für irgendwelche Heinis…

Draft translation

Of the other section members, so that I later heard nothing further, and so here I took each individual to task, in earnest, whoever here reproached another with the Austrian-ness or the reverse, the Pifke-ness [derogatory term for Prussians/Reich-Germans]. There I intervened and I also know it, because I was a fighter against this plague, therefore I know it too well, that when one once [took/put] an Ostmark man [Austrian] in the sea of the Old-Reich Germans, who occupied roughly the same size of official position as oneself, that one could speak with him much more easily and openly than if it had been someone who came out of a different German living-space [Lebensraum]. And so I believe that Seyss[-Inquart] and Rauter, who both stood in a very high post in the Netherlands occupied territory and were often surrounded by non-South-Germans, that they certainly got along quite well here although they were of opposite natures. But they come from two entirely different camps, Seyss[-Inquart] . . ..... .. was Catholic and Rauter from the German-national. But that does not mean that they [HW: 2 1] did not nevertheless get along quite well in the Netherlands. Is nothing known to you about the incident [Verfall] in Amsterdam, in which a German police patrol was doused with vitriol, whereupon again 250 Jews were arrested as hostages? No-- I cannot remember it-- perhaps I read it, but it is not recalled by me. Thereupon it then came to really wild incidents. Strikes of the workers in Amsterdam, throngs of people, shooting of the police into the crowd, etc. Yes, that I cannot know, the primary thing here is the attentat [assassination attempt], so the desk [Dezernat] for that was xix responsible, whose section handled attentats. Likewise in the strike matter, all was not my task..... Precisely that had as its consequence the sending of the [TS INS: Jewish] 300 hostages to Mauthausen. Is nothing known to you? No, I did not have hostages to register, and if another desk [Dezernat] arrested Jewish hostages, then they were sent off extra and did not travel with the deportation trains. All persons who were seized by other desks were brought extra to the Reich. When such a matter was not a pure Jewish affair for the [Fragmax] solution of the Jewish question, thus for me concerning deportation, then I also had nothing to do with such removals/transports-off, then I was not at all included. For all arising questions the responsible desk of the respective subject area was responsible, whether that were now Jews or non-Jews, ---and finally I was indeed no "transport-uncle" [transport-man] for any [Meinis]......

Questioner

Rauter defends himself at his trial by saying that he was against sending the Jews to the Muathausen camp, to the stone-quarry camps—that is, death camps—and that this is why many Dutch Jews went to Sachsenhausen.

Then the question would be: where did the transports go that are to be described as transports for the solution of the Jewish question? Where did they go?

No, from 1942 the transports go to Auschwitz again.

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

Mr Eichmann reported to Mr Rademacher on 23 June 1942 that from the middle of July the trains would run daily, and that 40,000 from the Netherlands and 40,000 from occupied France and Belgium would be transported.

Now, that would have been a programme… But unfortunately that was not how it was. I had to go there again and was promised another 40,000, and I was glad when I got 10 to 15 per cent. And in Holland I did at least eventually reach 110,000.

Questioner

But the Foreign Office, out of consideration for the psychological effects, initially wanted to deport only 25,000 stateless Jews and refugees from Holland, whereas Zoepf and aus der Fuenten arrested everyone they could lay hands on—

Eichmann

One moment. Zoepf did what I ordered. He had my guidelines, and I did not simply make those up out of thin air either. They developed over time through orders from the RF (Reichsführer-SS), supplementary decrees, and my own thinking and drafting.

Questioner

So you were doing creative work after all? [Handwritten note: (? Now) this nonsense again!]

Eichmann

I already told you then that I compiled the guidelines. They were made up of the practical experience of the section—our own, of course—together with the orders from the RF (Reichsführer-SS) and the supplementary orders. The Chief of the Security Police had had another idea, and then the Chancellery of the Deputy of the Führer came into it as well: they wanted their say too. Everything was added; it grew as a cancer grows. And those guidelines stated that Jews of foreign nationality were not to be deported, that old Jews and Jews unfit for transport were likewise not to be transported, and that avoidable hardships were to be avoided.

I must also explain what is to be understood by “Jews of foreign nationality”. Of course, all those countries we had occupied were gradually excluded from that clause, or those where we could reach an arrangement with the competent government, insofar as they were still autonomous; or, as in the General Government, where we had to administer by our own authority, these former Polish Jews … were no longer to be regarded as foreign Jews.

Turkey, for example. Up to 1944, no Jew with Turkish citizenship would ever have …

Open page image and German
Page 616 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 616 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Rauter verteidigt sich in seinem Prozeß daß er gegen die Verschickung der Juden nach dem Lager Mauthausen war, in die Steingrubenlager, also Todeslager, deshalb kamen viele holl. Juden nach Sachsenhausen. Da wäre die Frage, wohin sind denn die Transporte, die als Transporte zur Lösung der Judenfrage anzusprechen sind, wohin sind die gegangen. Nein, ab 42 gehen die Transporte wieder nach Auschwitz und – zwar hat Herr Eichmann am 23 Juni 1942 berichtet an Herr Rademacher, daß von Mitte Juli an, die Züge täglich verkehren. Und 40 000 aus den Niederlanden, 40 000 aus dem besetzten Frankreich und Belgien befördert werden. Nun das wäre ein Programm gewesen… aber leider war es ja nicht so, ich mußte ja dann wiederhinfahren und dann wieder 40 000 versprochen bekommen habe und froh war, wenn ich dann 10 bis 15% bekam. Und bin dann in Holland doch wenigstens noch auf 110 000 gekommen, wie man sagt! Das ausw. Amt wollte aber mit Rücksicht auf die psychologischen Auswirkungen zunächst nur 25 000 staatlose Juden und Flüchtlinge aus Holland deportieren. Während Zoepf und aus der Fuenden alles verhaftet haben, was sie erfassen konnten Moment, Zoepf hat das gemacht was ich befohlen habe – er hat ja seine Richtlinien gehabt, die habe ich mir ja auch nicht so aus der Rippe geschnitten – die sind geboren worden im Laufe der Zeit durch RF Befehle, durch Zusatzverordnungen durch eigenes Nachdenken und Aufstellen. Also waren Sie doch schöpferisch tätig? Ich sagte Ihnen ja damals schon, daß ich die Richtlinien zusammen gestellt habe und zwar setzten sie sich zusammen aus den praktischen Erfahrungen des Dezernates, selbstverst. das waren die eigenen, dazu kamen die RF Befehle, die Zusatzbefehle, der Chef der Sipo hatte noch eine andere Idee gehabt, dann kam noch die Kanzlei des Stellvertr. des Führers hinzu, die wollten auch noch was sagen, alles kam dazu, es wuchs, wie ein Krebs wächst. Und in diesen Richtlinien stand drin, daß Juden ausl. Staatsangeh, nicht zu deportieren sind, ebenso nicht alte und transportunfähige Juden nicht zu transportieren sind, und auch daß vermeidbare Härten zu vermeiden sind – unter Ferner muß ich dazu bemerken, daß Juden ausl. Staatsangeh, – selbstverst. zu verstehen ist, daß all jene Länder dann peu a peu ausgenommen wurden aus diesem Passus, die wir besetzt hatten, oder wo wir ein Reglement treffen konnten mit der zuständigen Regierung, sofern sie noch autonom waren, oder wie im Gen Gov, wo wir kraft eigenen Rechtes zu wirtschaften hatten, daß diese ehem. poln. Juden jetzt nicht mehr als ausl. Juden anzusprechen war, – z.B. Türkei, bis 44 hätte doch nie ein Jude mit türkischer Staatsangeh, [unleserlich]

Draft translation

12 Volume 59 616 Rauter defends himself in his trial that he was against the deportation of the Jews to the Mauthausen camp, into the stone-quarry camps, that is, death camps, this is why many Dutch Jews came to Sachsenhausen. Now the question would be, [DEL: [illegible]] where then did the transports go, those which are to be addressed as transports for the solution of the Jewish question, where did they go. No, from 42 on the transports go again to Auschwitz and — indeed Herr Eichmann reported on 23 June 1942 to Herr Rademacher, that from mid-July on, the trains run daily. And 40,000 from the Netherlands, 40,000 from occupied France and Belgium are to be transported. Now that would have been a program..... but unfortunately it was not so, I then had to travel there again and then again got 40,000 promised and was glad if I then got 10 to 15%. And then in Holland did after all at least still reach 110,000, [HW: as they say!] But the Foreign Office wanted, out of consideration for the psychological effects, at first only to deport 25,000 stateless [DEL: [illegible]] Jews and refugees from Holland. While Zoepf and aus der Fünden arrested everything they could get hold of One moment, Zoepf did what I ordered--- he indeed had his guidelines, those I did not just cut out of my rib either--- they were born in the course of time through RF orders, through supplementary decrees, through my own reflecting and drafting. [HW: ⊗] So you were creatively active after all? [HW: ⊗ [?once again this?] nonsense !!! X] I told you back then already, that I compiled the guidelines, and indeed they were composed of the practical experiences of the section, of course those were the own ones, to that came the RF orders, the supplementary orders, the Chief of the Sipo had had yet another idea, then there came in addition the Chancellery of the Deputy of the Führer, they too wanted to say something,, everything came to it, it grew, as a cancer grows, And in these guidelines it stood, that Jews of foreign nationality are not to be deported, likewise not old and transport-unfit Jews are not to be transported, and also that avoidable hardships are to be avoided---- among Furthermore I must remark on this, that Jews of foreign nationality —of course it is to be understood, that all those countries were then peu à peu excepted from this passage, which we had occupied, or where we could reach an arrangement with the competent government, insofar as they were still autonomous, or as in the Gen[eral] Gov[ernment], where we had to administer by virtue of our own right, that these former Polish Jews [?état?] were no longer to be addressed as foreign Jews, --- [?e.g.?] Turkey, up to 44 no Jew with Turkish nationality would ever have [illegible] [illegible]

Questioner

But English Jews were killed too…

Yes, if but by mistake, not deliberately (… I cannot remember it).

Incidentally, I read the following here in those tomes of yours that you gave me. I think it was from Holland, though it could also have been France, although I do not think so—but so much time has passed that I have forgotten. Höss passed a case on to me: a woman had been admitted along with the transports and had brightly and cheerfully announced there that she was not a Jewess at all. That made the camp staff suspicious, and they kept this woman there for the time being. Höss first wrote to the Economic and Administrative Main Office, and then it came to me: a woman had been brought in who claimed not to be a Jewess. That was against the guidelines. I immediately ordered that she be sent to Theresienstadt accompanied by someone from the concentration camp. I had her held there in Theresienstadt too and looked into the matter. Indeed, she was not a Jewess…

I came to Theresienstadt again at some point, and Eppstein told me that they still had this woman there. What was to happen to her now? Because I had ordered that she be given preferential accommodation, in the quarter for prominent people. She had her room there, her food…

Open page image and German
Page 617 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 617 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Aber es sind doch auch engl. Juden umgebracht worden… Ja, aber irrtümlich, nicht mit Absicht, wenn ich mich nicht daran erinnern kann Übrigens habe ich hier in Ihren Schwarten die Sie mit gegeben haben folgendes gelesen. Ich glaube aus Holland, es könnte aber auch Frankreich gewesen sein, wenngleich ich es nicht glaube, aber die lange Zeit ließ es mich vergessen, da ist mir doch von Höß eine Sache zugeleitet worden, daß eine Frauensperson auf Grund von Transporten mit eingewiesen wurde, dort frisch, fröhlich erklärt hat, sie ist gar keine Jüdin, daraufhin ist das Lagerpersonal stutzig geworden und hat diese Frauensperson zunächst einmal auf Eis gelegt, und Höß schrieb nun zunächst einmal an das VW HA und dann kam es zu mir, daß also hier eine Frauensperson eingeliefert worden sei, die behauptete Nicht Jüdin zu sein. – Das war gegen die Richtlinien. – ich habe dann sofort angeordnet, daß sie in Begleitung einer Person des KL nach Theresienstadt in Marsch zu setzen sei. – Und ich habe sie dann auch in Theresienstadt auf Eis legen lassen und bin der Sache nachgegangen, tatsächlich, sie war keine Jüdin… Ich kam dann mal wieder nach Theresienstadt und da sagte mir Eppstein, daß sie immer noch diese Frauensperson dort haben, was denn nun damit zu geschehen habe, – weil ich angeordnet hatte, daß sie bevorzugt unterzubringen ist, in dem prominenten Viertel. Sie hatte dort ihr Zimmer, ihr Essen…

Draft translation

13 Volume 59 [HW: 617] But English Jews were indeed also killed..... [HW: X] Yes, but by mistake, not with intent, [HW: [DEL: at the same time] [?that I?] [?cannot remember?]] [HW: if/when] By the way, I read the following here in your tomes that you gave me along, I believe from Holland, but it could also have been France, although I do not believe it, but the long time made me for- get it, there a matter was passed to me by Hoess, that a female person was admitted on the basis of transports, and there freshly, cheerfully declared she is not a Jewess at all, whereupon the camp personnel became suspicious and first of all put this female person on ice, and Hoess now first of all wrote to the VWHA and then it came to me, that so here a female person had been delivered, who claimed [she was] not a Jewess to be.- That was against the guidelines.-- I then immediately ordered, that she was to be set in march to Theresienstadt in the company of a person of the KL [concentration camp].- And I then also had her put on ice in Theresienstadt and pursued the matter, indeed, she was not a Jewess...... I then came to Theresienstadt again once and there Eppstein told me, that they still have this female person there, what then was now to happen with it, ---because I had ordered that she is to be accommodated preferentially, in the prominent quarter. She had her room there, her food..... 12

Questioner

So you got a room there?

I had had accommodation assigned to me in Theresienstadt in the area for prominent people. One day I was shown the results of the inquiries, which stated that in this case it really was—in this case—a non-Jew. This woman had visited a Jewish woman friend or a family during the evacuations and had been swept up with them wholesale, through ignorance or lack of time, or because this non-Jewish woman had stood up for that family. When I visited, Eppstein asked me what was to be done about it. And when, one day, I knew that the case had been cleared up, I was, I believe, transferred back to her country of origin—or I left her in Theresienstadt for a while longer, until the first impressions of her reception in Auschwitz might have faded.

Of course, she had only got as far as being unloaded from the wagons, for she was questioned by officials in Theresienstadt, and I assume and hope that she was questioned skillfully, so that the files could show that she had noticed nothing of the proceedings themselves and could know nothing about them. I believe that was how it was and that she was then transferred to her country of origin. Eppstein pressed me very hard about this, very hard, because he would not tolerate non-Jews being included in his community. It is a counterpart to the business of compensation for the Jews, where the Jews likewise do not want others benefiting at their expense.

Now I will tell you how I come to this: Jews of foreign nationality, people infirm with age, people unfit for transport—that is, they might still be a long way from being infirm with age and yet no longer be fit for transport. A fifty-year-old may still be far from infirm with age, but if he is unfit for transport, if his gout is so bad that he can no longer crawl, then he cannot be evacuated. That is what the guidelines say.

What happened in practice is not the responsibility of section IV B 4. The guidelines had been issued. Where would we have got to if every section head in Office IV had had to run around the whole great German Reich, including the territories we had occupied, checking whether the guidelines he had issued in accordance with his instructions and orders were actually being followed or not? The subordinate offices had to answer for that. If they were not being followed, those offices might have had to face disciplinary penalties.

Open page image and German
Page 618 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 618 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Also Sie bekamen dort in Zimmer? Ich hatte mir in Theresienstadt eine Unterkunft in der prominenten Gegend anweisen lassen und bekommen dann eines Tages das Ergebnis der Erörterungen vorgelegt, welche dann besagen, daß es sich hier in diesem Fall tatsächlich hier in diesem Fall um einen Nicht Juden handelt. und zwar hatte diese Frau in der Zeit der Evakuierungen eine jüd Freundin oder Familie besucht und wurde nun infolge der Unkenntnis oder Zeitmangel oder auch infolge des Eintretens dieser nicht jüd. Frau für diese Familie, im Bausch und Bogen mit erfaßt. Auf meinen Besuch hin sagte ich, daß mir Eppstein nun, was damit zu geschehen habe und alles ich dann eines Tages wußte, daß der Fall klargestellt war, wurde ich, glaube ich, wieder in ihr Herkunftsland überstellt oder ich ließ sie noch eine Zeit in Theresienstadt bis die ersten Eindrücke ihres Empfanges in Auschwitz verflüchtet haben könnten… Sie ist natürlich nur bis zur Auswaggonierung gekommen denn sie wurde durch Organe in Theresienstadt befragt und ich nehme an und hoffe, geschickt gefragt, sodaß die Akten aufweisen konnten, daß sie von den Vorgängen an sich nichts wahrgenommen hat und wissen kann. – Das glaube ich, das es so war und daß sie dann in ihr Herkunftsland überstellt wurde. Denn Eppstein bedrängelte mich sehr dieserhalb sehr, weil er es nicht dulden wollte, daß Nicht Juden in seiner Gemeinschaft mitgeführt wurden. – Es ist ein Gegenstück zu der Sache mit der Wiedergutmachung für die Juden, wo die Juden ja auch nicht wünschen daß andere auf ihr Konto mit reisen. Nun will ich Ihnen sagen, wie ich darauf komme; daß Juden ausl. Staatsangeh. Altersschwache, Transportunfähige, d.h. also sie konnten noch lange bis zur Altersschwäche hinhaben, aber doch nicht mehr transportfähig sein. Ein 50 jähriger ist vielleicht noch lange nicht altersschwach, aber wenn er transportunfähig ist, daß er vor lauter Gicht nicht mehr krauchen kann, dann kann er nicht evakuiert werden, daß besagen die Richtlinien. Was geschehen ist in der Praxis, dafür ist das Dezernat IV B 4 nicht zuständig. Die Richtlinien sind herausgekommen. Wo wären wir hingekommen, wenn ein Jeder Dezernent des Amtes IV hätte nachlaufen müssen im ganzen großen deutschen Reich einschließl. der von uns besetzten Gebieten um nachzuprüfen ob tatsächlich die Richtlinien die er gemäß seinen Weisungen und Befehlen herausgegeben hat, eingehalten werden oder nicht? Dafür hatten die nachgeordneten Dienststellen gerade zu stehen und hätten sich, wenn das Gegenteil der Fall gewesen wäre, hätten sie unter Umständen mit Disziplinarstrafen zu rechn… gehabt.

Draft translation

2 Volume 68 So you got a room there? I had had lodging assigned to me in Theresienstadt in the prominent area and then one day received the result of the deliberations presented to me, which then state that in this case it actually was a matter here in this case of a non-Jew. And indeed this woman had, during the time of the evacuations, visited a Jewish friend or family and was now, as a result of ignorance or lack of time or also as a result of the stepping-in of this non-Jewish woman for this family, lumped in wholesale [TS INS: I, that] caught up along with them. Upon my visit Eppstein now told me what was to happen with it, and everything I then one day knew, that the case was clearly established, I was, I b e l i e v e, transferred back to her country of origin or I left her still a while in Theresienstadt until the first impressions of her reception in Auschwitz might have evaporated... She of course only got as far as the loading-out into wagons, for she was, through organs in Theresienstadt, questioned and I assume and hope, questioned skilfully, so that the files could show that she of the proceedings had as such perceived nothing and can know. — That I believe, that it was so, and that she then was transferred to her country of origin. For Eppstein pressed me very much about this very much, because he did not want to tolerate that non-Jews were carried along in his community. — It is a counterpart to the matter of the restitution for the Jews, where the Jews too indeed do not wish that others travel along on their account. Now I want to tell you how I come to this; that Jews of foreign nationality, those infirm with age, unfit for transport, i.e. so they could still have a long time until age-infirmity, but nonetheless no longer be transportable. A 50-year-old is perhaps still far from age-infirm, but if he is unfit for transport, that from sheer gout he can no longer crawl, then he cannot be evacuated, that state the guidelines. What happened in practice, for that Department IV B 4 is not responsible. The guidelines came out. Where would we have come to, if every desk-officer of Office IV had had to run after throughout the whole great German Reich including the territories occupied by us in order to check whether the guidelines that he in accordance with his instructions and orders had issued are actually being observed or not? For that the subordinate offices had precisely to answer, and would, if the opposite had been the case, have had under certain circumstances to reckon with disciplinary penalties.

When I personally came upon such excesses, I saw to the punishment; at least I reported them, because such cases were not provided for in the guidelines.

[Typed as notes in the transcript: Example: Troestel; Jew with a burnt-off beard; and so on—already mentioned.]

Questioner

Was there a branch of the Central Office for Jewish Emigration in Holland?

Eichmann

Yes, I believe so. I sent Dr. Jako… up to Holland. He was to set up the same thing there, and it was set up. I believe it even called itself the Central Office for Jewish Emigration for a while. But it came to nothing, because it did not work. People think you can simply reproduce a Central Office for Jewish Emigration somewhere else, like copying a transfer picture: it had been put into practice in Vienna and pushed through in Prague with great difficulty. That did not work. It is easy to say, but enormously difficult.

Vienna was an exception. It caused a stir; I was addressed like a little minister-president. What we had managed in Vienna at the first attempt, with tremendous speed, by virtually overrunning people—and which, once it had succeeded, could no longer be undone—we managed once again with the same speed, now also supported by the chief of the Reich Security Main Office, Heydrich. Now he could throw himself into it too, because he already knew how it had worked in Vienna. Until then he had watched the whole thing from a distance.

Stallecker and I had to do that alone. And it worked once again in Prague, although he was still a long way from being deputy Reich Protector then. In Berlin it no longer worked. The central authorities refused, because they were placing their entire staff under the police—and not only that. The personnel side would not have been so important. No, they were handing all their powers over to the authority of the police. That did not work. So they got wind of everything from Vienna; perhaps they had thought differently at first.

When they suddenly heard that Eichmann tells the economics fellow what he wants—or, at the foreign-exchange office, I tell its head: I have this and this and this here, I have 200,000 dollars, and I need 2 million marks, immediately. And I did get them, once even at an exchange rate of up to 20 marks to a dollar. That was the highest. Then the penny dropped with the people, and I got a dressing-down until my own people backed me up, my superiors… But these are encroachments on the most elementary and fundamental powers of those central authorities, and they had naturally—

Open page image and German
Page 619 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 619 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Bei den Ausfällen wo ich persönlich hinzu kam, sorgte ich für die Bestrafung zumindest machte ich Meldung davon, denn solche Fälle waren in den Richtlinien nicht vorgesehen (Beispiel Tröstel, – Jude mit abgebranntem Bart, – usw. sind schon erwähnt. –) Gab es eine Zweigstelle für die Zentrale der jüd. Auswanderung in Holland? Ja, ich glaube, und zwar habe ich den Dr, Jako… rauf geschickt nach Holland – der sollte oben dasselbe aufziehen und es wurde auch aufgezogen und es nannte sich auch glaube ich mal eine Zeitlang Zentralstelle für jüd. Auswanderung, wurde aber nichts, weil es nicht funktionierte. Es glauben nämlich die Leute, es läßt sich eine Z.f.J. A. in Wien praktiziert, in Prag mit Ach und Krach durchgedrückt… irgend an einem anderen Punkt einfach Abziehbildmäßig nachmachen. Das ging nicht. – Das Wort spricht sich leicht aus, aber es ist ungeheuer schwer, – es war in Wien eine Ausnahme, es hat Aufsehen erregt, ich wurde wie ein kleiner Minister präs. auf Anhieb angesprochen, – was uns in Wien mit einer ungeheuren Rasanz mit einem quasi Überfahren gelungen war, das nachdem es gelungen war, nicht mehr rückgängig gemacht werden konnte, haben wir noch einmal mit derselben Rasanz und jetzt noch unterstützt durch den Chef des RSHA, Heydrich, weil er nun jetzt auch seine Person mithereinschmeißen konnte, weil er ja in Wien schon die Praxis kannte, bis dahin hat er sich die ganze Sache aus der Ferne angesehen, das mußten Stallecker und ich alleine machen, – und da ging es in Prag auch noch einmal, obwohl er da noch lange nicht stellvertr. Reichsprot. war. In Berlin ging es dann nicht mehr, da weigerten sich die Zentralinstanzen, denn sie unterstellten ihr ganzes Personal, aber nicht allein das, das Personelle wäre nicht so wichtig gewesen, nein, ihre ganzen Befugnisse gaben sie der Gewalt der Polizei, – das ging nicht. – Also sie alles witterten so von Wien, denn am Anfang dachten sie vielleicht anders darüber – als sie nun plötzlich hörten, der Eichmann gibt dem Wirtschaftsonkel seine Wünsche – oder an der Devisenhandelsstelle, dem Leiter der Devisenhandelsstelle sage ich habe hier, das und das und das, ich habe 200 000 Dollar, und ich brauche 2 Mill Mark, und zwar sofort… ich bekam sie ja denn auch, einmal sogar einen Wechselkurs bis zu 20 Mark für einen Dollar, das war das Höchste gewesen und da fiel von den Leuten der Groschen und ich bekam eins auf die Nuß bis mich meine Leute deckten, meine Vorgesetzten… Das sind aber nun Eingriffe in die elementarsten und fundamentalsten Befugnisse dieser Zentralinstanzen und das hatten sie natürl…

Draft translation

2 Volume 60 [HW: 619] In the excesses where I personally came upon [them], I saw to the pu- nishment, at least I made a report of it, for such cases were not provided for in the guidelines (example Troestel, --Jew with burned-off beard, --etc. have already been mentioned.-) Was there a branch office for the Central Office for Jewish emigration in Holland? Yes, I believe [so], namely I sent Dr. Jako..... up to Holland--he was to set up the same thing up there and it was in fact set up and it also called itself, I believe, for a while, Central Office for Jewish emigration, but it came to nothing, because it did not function. For the people believe, namely, that a Z.f.J.A. as practiced in Vienna, pushed through in Prague with great difficulty..... [could] simply at some other point be copied off decal-fashion. That did not work.-- The word is easily spoken, but it is enormously hard,-- it was in Vienna an exception, it caused a stir, I was addressed like a little minister pres. [HW: at first go],------- what had succeeded for us in Vienna with an enormous impetuosity with a quasi running-over, that after it had succeeded, could not be reversed any more, we did once more with the same impetuosity and now additionally supported by [DEL: [illegible]] the chief of the RSHA, Heydrich, because he now could also throw his own person in as well, because he already knew the practice in Vienna, until then he had watched the whole thing from afar, that Stallecker and I had to do alone,--and there it worked in Prague too once more, although he was there by no means yet deputy Reich Protector. In Berlin then it no longer worked, there the central authorities refused, for they subordinated their whole personnel, but not that alone, the personnel matter would not have been so important, no, their whole powers they gave to the authority of the police,--that did not work.--- So they scented everything so from Vienna, for at the beginning they perhaps thought differently about it---- when they now suddenly heard, Eichmann grants the economics-uncle his wishes---- or at the foreign-exchange trading office, to the head of the foreign-exchange trading office I say I have here, this and that and that, I have 200,000 dollars, and I need 2 million marks, and indeed at once.... I did in fact get them then too, once even an exchange rate up to 20 marks for one dollar, that had been the highest and then [DEL: [illegible]] the [HW: to] the people the penny dropped and I got one on the nut until my people covered me, my superiors.....But these are now interventions into the most elementary and fundamental powers of these central authorities and that they naturally [ha]d

not expected the police to bring their own methods into play here.

Questioner

The head of the Central Office for Jewish Emigration in Holland was ….

Eichmann

Yes, that may be right. Jako… started it up there, in any case. I think we even had an administration and disposal office there. But just as little came of that central office as of the one in Berlin. Wherever I turned up in Berlin, I found anxious faces in the central authorities. Nobody dared do anything anymore. I was treated politely and considerately, but they feared and avoided me as a child avoids fire. Even I, in Berlin—and in The Hague we had no different experience.

Questioner

Are you aware that, regarding the deportation of Jews with Dutch citizenship, the Reich Security Main Office wanted a regulation under which the Jews would lose their Dutch citizenship the moment they crossed the border?

Eichmann

Yes, I have some dim recollection of that. It was an accommodation on our part, intended to free the Dutch from any pangs of conscience. But today I can no longer say whether the idea came from me or from the Foreign Office.

Questioner

No, the Foreign Office opposed it immediately. It pointed out that Sweden would then stop representing the interests of German citizens in the Dutch colonies, for instance in …. Besides, at the same time reports kept coming in from Nordhausen about the deaths of Dutch Jews, and Sweden intervened in that case.

Eichmann

Yes, that is right… But perhaps it was Reich…auer who made the proposal. But I do know about it…

Questioner

The Gestapo then found another solution, in connection with the death certificates, which suddenly arrived in Holland in bundles, about the death of this hostage.

Eichmann

But not through us… Of the hostage—that is none of my section’s business. No death certificates passed through me either.

Questioner

Then the Foreign Office gave the Gestapo the good advice not to issue any more death certificates at all, and not to let any information about the place of confinement reach the outside, so that the Swedes would have no—

Open page image and German
Page 620 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 620 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

nicht erwartet gehabt, daß die Polizei hier nun ihre eigenen Register rauszieht Der Leiter für die Z.f.J. A. in Holland war (?) Ja, das kann stimmen. Jako… hat sie jedenfalls eingeleitet oben – ich glaube wir hatten sogar eine Verwaltung und Verwertungsstelle gehabt oben, aber aus dieser Zentralstelle ist dann genauso wenig etwas richtiges geworden, wie auch die in Berlin, denn wo ich auch immer in Berlin aufkreuzte, ich fand ängstliche Gesichter vor in den Zentralinstanzen, aber keiner traute sich noch etwas zu machen, ich wurde höflich und zuvorkommend behandelt, aber man fürchtete und mied mich, wie ein Kind das Feuer. – Selbst ich in Berlin und in Den Haag haben wir keine anderen Erfahrungen gemacht. Ist Ihnen bekannt, daß bzgl der Deportierung von Juden mit holländischer Staatsbürgerschaft, das RSHA eine Verordnung wünschte, derzufolge die Juden in dem Augenblick, indem sie die Grenze überschritten, ihre holländische Staatsbürgerschaft verlieren. Ja mir ist da etwas dunkel in Erinnerung – es war ein Entgegenkommen von uns gewesen, daß die Holländer frei machen sollte, von etwaigen Gewissensbissen, aber ich kann heute nun nicht mehr sagen ob diese Idee nun von mir kam… oder vom ausw. Amt? Nein, das ausw. Amt war dagegen, es hat sich sofort dagegen gestellt und wies daraufhin, daß in diesem Fall Schweden aufhören würde, die Interessen deutscher Bürger in holl. Kolonien, zB. in zu vertreten, außerdem kam zur selben Zeit dauernd die Nachrichten von dem Tod der holl. Juden aus Nordhausen, und in diesem Fall mischte sich Schweden ein. Ja, das stimmt… aber vielleicht ist es Reich auer gewesen, der den Vorschlag gemacht hat – aber mir ist es bekannt… Die Gestapo hat dann eine andere Lösung gefunden und zwar im Zusammenhang mit der Ausstellung der Totenscheine, die gebündelt ankamen nach Holland plötzlich über den Tod dieser Geisel Aber nicht über uns… der Geisel, das geht mein Dezernat nichts an – über mich sind auch keine Totenscheine gegangen Nun gab das ausw. Amt der Gestapo den guten Rat, man möge überhaupt keine Totenscheine mehr ausstellen, man möge überhaupt von dem Unterbringungsort keine Mitteilung verlauten lassen nach außen hin, damit die Schweden keine

Draft translation

not have expected, that the police here would now pull out their own regis­ters The head for the Z.f.J.A. [Central Office for Jewish Emigration] in Holland was (?) Yes, that may be correct. Jako...... at any rate initiated it up there---- I believe we had even had an administration and utilization office up there, but out of this Central Office then just as little of anything proper came, as also the one in Berlin, for wherever I ever turned up in Berlin, I found anxious faces before me in the central authorities, but no one still dared to do anything, I was treated politely and obligingly, but one feared and avoided me, like a child [fears] the fire.-- Even I in Berlin and in The Hague, we made no other experiences. Is it known to you, that with regard to the deportation of Jews with Dutch citizenship, the RSHA wished for an ordinance, according to which the Jews at the moment in which they crossed the [DEL: [illegible]] border, would lose their Dutch citizenship. Yes, something is dimly in my memory there--- it was an accommodation on our part, that was supposed to free the Dutch, from any [DEL: [illegible]] pangs of conscience, but I can now no longer say today whether this idea came from me.... or from the Foreign Office? No, the Foreign Office was against it, it immediately opposed it and pointed out, that in this case Sweden would cease to represent the interests of German citizens in Dutch colonies, e.g. in [DEL: [illegible]] to represent, besides at the same time the news kept coming continually of the death of the Dutch Jews from Nordhaus[e]n, and in this case Sweden interfered. Yes, that is correct...... but perhaps it was Reich[m]auer who made the proposal--but it is known to me...... The Gestapo then found another solution and namely in connection with the issuing of the death certificates, which arrived bundled in Holland suddenly about the death of these hostages But not through us.....the hostage, that does not concern my desk [Dezernat]---through me no death certificates went either Now the Foreign Office gave the Gestapo the good advice, that one should not issue any death certificates at all anymore, one should not let out any notification at all about the place of accommodation to the outside, so that the Swedes [?kriez?]

Questioner

opportunity to intervene. Have you heard nothing about that?

No.

Questioner

Have you heard of the Jewish camp Ogreben?

Eichmann

No.

Questioner

Westerburg?

Eichmann

Yes, I know Westerburg. Under whose control was it, German or Dutch?

Questioner

I do not know at the moment. It does not emerge from this…

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

Westerburg then became a collection point for the gas chambers of Auschwitz, for the—

Questioner

[unintelligible on the recording] (reading aloud)

Unknown speaker reads from Reitlinger's book

Eichmann had spoken the truth.

Eichmann

Every day a train left either from France or from Holland. I did not travel to Paris and The Hague so often for nothing. Something had to happen.

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

From the middle of August there were difficulties, once the Jews had realized what kind of deportations these were…

Eichmann

Well, the strange thing is that most Dutch Jews are still alive.

Questioner

Yes, but nowhere near most. There were 140,000, and 110,000 of them disappeared…

Eichmann

But they went somewhere else as well. They were not all killed.

[intervening conversation]

This Mr. Reitlinger is not a very precise gentleman…

Questioner

He only says here how many Jews are still in Holland today: 35,000.

Eichmann

But you cannot say that 110,000 were killed.

Questioner

No, 80,000 were killed.

Eichmann

Who says that—the Jews?

Questioner

No, that is the figure you can derive from what was there. Those 140,000 do not even include the 50,000 with German citizenship who came to Holland after ’36…

They do not count anyway…

But then they took the number of those who were still in Holland, who had remained, of those who had returned to Holland, and of those who illegally—because it is all illegal emigration—

Open page image and German
Page 621 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 621 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Möglichkeiten haben, sich einzumischen. Habe Sie darüber nichts gehört? Nein. Haben Sie von dem Judenlager Ogreben (????) gehört? Nein, Westerburg? Ja, Westerburg ist mir bekannt – unter welcher Kontrolle stand es deutscher oder holländischer? Das weiß ich im Moment nicht – geht nicht hieraus hervor… Westerburg hat nun die Rolle bekommen als Sammelstation für die Gaskammern von Auschwitz, für die… (Vorlesen undeutlich… Eichmann hatte die Wahrheit gesprochen Jeden Tag ging entweder ein Zug aus Frankreich oder aus Holland ab Bin nicht umsonst sooft nach Paris und Den Haag gefahren, es mußte ja was passieren – Ab Mitte August gab es dann Schwierigkeiten, nachdem die Juden drauf gekommen sind, um welche Verschickungen es sich handelt… So, nun das merkwürdige ist ja, daß die meisten holländischen Juden noch leben Ja aber bei weitem nicht, es hat 140 000 gegeben und davon sind 110 000 verschwunden… Aber die sind doch noch woanders hingegangen, die sind doch nicht alle getötet worden Zwischengespräch… Dieser Herr Reitlinger ist kein sehr genauer Herr… Er spricht ja nur von dem hier wieviel Juden heute noch in Holland sind, 35 000. Aber man kann doch nicht sagen, daß 110 000 getötet worden sind – Nein, es sind 80 000 getötet worden Wer sagt das, die Juden? Nein, das ist die Ziffer die man daraus ableiten kann, von dem was vorhanden war, bei diesen 140 000 werden gar nicht die 50000 gerechnet mit deutscher Staatsangeh. die nach Holland gekommen sind nach 36… Die zählen ja sowieso nicht… Aber dann hat man die Zahl genommen, von denjenigen die in Holland noch waren, geblieben sind, von denen die nach Holland zurückgekehrt sind, und von denen die illegal, denn es ist ja alles eine illegale Emigration

Draft translation

Band 60 [HW: 621] possibilities to interfere.. Have you heard nothing about it? No.. Have you heard of the Jewish camp Ogreben (????)? No, Westerburg? Yes, Westerburg is known to me-----under what control was it, German or Dutch? That I do not know at the moment ---does not follow [DEL: [illegible]] from here... Westerburg then received the role as collection station for the gas chambers of Auschwitz, for the..... (reading out indistinct...... Eichmann had spoken the truth Every day a train departed either from France or from Holland Have not driven to Paris and The Hague so often for nothing, something did have to happen-- From mid-August there were then difficulties, after the Jews had figured out what deportations it was about.... So, now the strange thing is that most Dutch Jews are still alive Yes but by far not, there were 140,000 and of those 110,000 have disappeared.... But they did go somewhere else after all, they were surely not all killed Interjection...... The Mr. Reitlinger is not a very precise gentleman...... He speaks only of this here, how many Jews are still in Holland today, 35,000. But one cannot say that 110,000 were killed---- No, 80,000 were killed Who says that, the Jews? No, that is the figure one can derive from it, from what was on hand, in these 140,000 the 50,000 with German citizenship who came to Holland after 36 are not counted at all... Those don't count anyway.... But then one took the number, of those who were still in Holland, have remained, of those who returned to Holland, and of those who [came] illegally, for it is after all all an illegal emigration

Questioner

—been.

Fine, then they should not question the Security Police. They should question other offices.

Questioner

Are you aware that there were 14,500 employees at the Jewish Council at the end of the year?

Eichmann

Yes, that is quite possible.

Questioner

They were protected from deportation, but the Gestapo then reduced the number to 13,000.

Eichmann

Possible. Half of Amsterdam was Jewish officials. There you see the tolerance of the Security Police.

Questioner

The peat cutters were exempted too, and their family members numbered 30,000 people.

Eichmann

They were exempted too. There you have it. There was an outcry against the peat-cutting camps, and now, after all this denigration of the entire deportation, it turns out that the workers in the peat-cutting camps and their relatives were exempted from the deportation measures. So I ask myself: was it really so terrible?

Those peat-cutting camps were labor camps and were exempt from the deportation measures.

Questioner

But which camp can it have been?

Eichmann

Westerburg was a peat-cutting camp.

Questioner

And the Security Police even protected these people.

Eichmann

Yes, the relatives were provisionally exempted from the deportation measures.

[overlapping talk]

Questioner

On 10 July Rauter wrote to Müller that rounding up the Jews was causing them the very greatest headaches…

Eichmann

Yes, of course. I did not hear that, but I did hear about the other difficulties.

Questioner

He said that three trains a week were needed to deport the Jews. He then proposed declaring the Jews outside the protection of the law. After 15 October, Jews could be arrested not only by members of the police but also by members of the Wehrmacht and the Party.

Eichmann

After which 15 October? In what year?

Questioner

1943.

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

Those measures had only limited success. Combing out the labor camps yielded not 30,000 but only 17,000, and at the end of the year the total number of Jews deported from the Netherlands was 38,606.

Questioner

At the end of 1943. So there would have been, in ’44, during the invasion and so on—then there was supposed to be the—

Open page image and German
Page 622 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 622 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

gewesen… Gut, dann sollen sie nicht die Sicherheitspol befragen, da sollen sie andere Stellen befragen Ist Ihnen bekannt, daß Ende des Jahres 14 500 Angestellte beim Judenrat waren? Ja, das ist schon möglich Die waren nämlich geschützt vor der Deportierung, wurden aber dann von der Gestapo auf 13 000 heruntergesetzt Möglich, – halb Amsterdam war ja jüdische Beamte – da sehen Sie die Toleranz der Sipo. Die Torfstecher sind auch ausgenommen worden und deren Familienangeh. waren 30 000 Menschen. – Die sind auch ausgenommen worden… Da haben Sie s – da ist gewettert worden gegen die Torfstechlager, jetzt wird festgestellt, nachdem hier übel hergezogen wird über die ganze Deportierung, daß die Arbeiter in den Torfstechlager und die Angeh. von den Deportierungsmaßnahmen ausgenommen waren. Also frage ich mich, war es wirklich so furchtbar,??? Diese Torfstechlager sind ja Arbeitslager gewesen und sind von den Deportierungsmaßnahmen ausgenommen gewesen. Aber welches Lager kann es denn gewesen sein – Westerburg ist ein Torfstechlager gewesen… Und die Sipo hat sie noch geschützt diese Leute Ja, die Angehörige sind vorläufig von den Deportierungsmaßnahmen ausgenommen worden (Durcheinander) Am 10 Juli schrieb Rauter an Müller daß die Zusammenfassung der Juden ihnen die allergrößten Kopfzerbrechen machen… Ja natürl. das hörte ich zwar nicht, aber von den übrigen Schwierigkeiten Er erklärte daß man 3 Züge pro Woche brauche, zwecks Deportierung der Juden – er schlug dann vor, die Juden für vogelfrei zu erklären, nach dem 15 Okt. konnten die Juden nicht nur von Angeh. der Polizei, sondern auch von Angeh. der Wehrmacht und der Partei in Haft genommen werden. Nach welchem 15 Okt, in welchem Jahr 1943 – diese Maßnahmen hatte nur beschränkten Erfolg – das Auskämmen der Arbeitslager ergab nicht 30 000 sondern nur 17 000 und Ende des Jahre betrug die Gesamtzahl der aus den Niederlanden deportierten Juden, 38 606, Ende 1943 – Also wären im Jahr 44, in der Invasion usw. soll dann der

Draft translation

been.... Good, then they should not question the security police, they should question other offices Are you aware that at the end of the year there were 14,500 employees at the Jewish Council? Yes, that is quite possible They were namely protected from deportation, but were then reduced from the Ge stapo to 13,000 Possible, --half of Amsterdam was Jewi h [Jewish] offi ials [officials]--there you see the tolerance of the Sipo. The peat-cutters were also exempted and their family members were 30,000 people.-- They were also exempted...There you have i----- there was ranting against the peat-cutting camps, now it is being established, after there is nasty carping here about the whole deportation, that the workers in the peat-cutting camps and the family members were exempted from the deportation measures. So I ask myself, was it really so terrible,??? These peat-cutting camps were indeed labor camps and were exempted from the deportation measures. But which camp can it have been then--- Westerburg was a peat-cutting camp.... And the Sipo even protected them, these people Yes, the family members [wer]e for the time being exempted from the deportation measures (Confusion / cross-talk) On 10 July Rauter wrote to Mueller that the rounding-up of the Jews was causing them the very greatest headaches.... Yes of course, I did not hear that, but of the remaining difficulties He declared that one needed 3 trains per week, for the purpose of deporting the Jews--he then proposed to declare the Jews outlawed [vogelfrei], after the 15 Oct. the Jews could be taken into custody not only by members of the police, but also by members of the Wehrmacht and the Party. After which 15 Oct, in which year 1 43 ----- these measures had only limited success--- the combing-out of the labor camps yielded not 30,000 but only 17,000 and at the end of the year the total number of Jews deported from the Netherlands amounted to 38,606, end of 1943---- So in the year 44, in the invasion etc. then the [text ends]

But I know that some time ago there was discussion of measures to protect Jews. Among other things, in Holland, for example, the Commissioner for the Four-Year Plan sent out his emissaries. They tracked down gem dealers, antique dealers and art dealers, who then immediately received protective passes. That falls under this heading. If the Reich Marshal himself does this, pursuing his own passions, then one should not be surprised that every Tom, Dick and Harry helped himself from this pot for his personal or official purposes—which of those it was can be left open. It was very difficult to judge what was right and what was wrong in terms of National Socialist intent. I raised this subject weeks and months ago because I knew about this Dutch example.

Questioner

Did you have to send Jews from the West to Auschwitz who had to work there for the newly built B. works?

Eichmann

What they had to work for did not interest me at all.

Questioner

Have you never heard of this Buna works?

Eichmann

Yes, I have. That was probably a factory there with the one belonging to Heinkel. But I had to deliver my transports to the places prescribed by the Economic and Administrative Main Office. What that office needed them for was not in any file, and it was none of my business either…

Questioner

Because of the difficulties, Harster reduced the May quota from 12,000 to 8,000.

Eichmann

Yes, there were difficulties…

Questioner

They then had to take out exempted, privileged Jews, and that is how they got the 6,000 together.

Eichmann

Really, I can hardly believe that…

Questioner

Yes, they combed through the list of those exempted and claimed that at first they had had only 6,000.

Eichmann

Yes, by privileged you now mean exempted. When I say privileged about these Jews, I mean “privileged”, in quotation marks. When I mean privileged, I mean it according to the laws. Those are two different concepts. What they call privileged is because these people have been classified as indispensable, because they have produced something, let us say on some scale—let us say on a Reich-wide scale. That is how it was issued too. That was how they were raised to privileged status.

Open page image and German
Page 623 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 623 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Aber ich weiß, daß vor einiger Zeit einmal von den Judenschutzmaßnahmen gesprochen wurde, wo auch u.a. B. in Holland auch der Beauftragte für den 4 Jahresplan seine Emissäre aussehen ließ – hier Edelsteinhändler, Antiquitätenhändler, Kunstgemäldehändler ausfindig macht, die dann hier sofort ihren Schutzpass bekamen – unter diese Rubrik zählt das, wenn das natürlich hier der Reichsmarschall macht, der hier so seinen Passionen nachging, so darf man sich eben nicht wundern, daß Huns und Kins hier aus diesem Topf heraus holte für seine persönlichen oder dienstlichen Belange, das mag dahin gestellt sein, und das es eben sehr schwer war, hier zu beurteilen, was ist recht und was ist unrecht, im Sinne des nationalsozialistischen Wollens. Ich schnitt dieses Thema schon vor Wochen und Monaten an, weil mir dieses holländische Beispiel bekannt war Mußten Sie Juden aus dem Westen nach Auschwitz senden, die dort für das neu errichtete B.-Werk arbeiten mußten? Wofür sie arbeiten mußten, das interessierte mich gar nicht Haben Sie von diesem Buna (?) Werk nie gehört? Ja, schon, das war wohl ein Werk da mit den von Heinkel, aber ich mußte meine Transporte dahin liefern an die Orte, die mir das V&W HA verschrieb. Wozu sie das V&W HA brauchte, das stand in keiner Akte und das ging mich auch nichts an… Auf Grund der Schwierigkeiten hat nämlich Harster die Maiquote die auf 12 000 festgesetzt war, auf 8 000 herunter gesetzt. – Ja, man hatte schon Schwierigkeiten… Man mußte dann freigestellte previligierte Juden herausnehmen und so bekam man dann die 6 000 zusammen. So, das glaube ich aber kaum… Ja. man die Liste der Freigestellten durchgekämmt und behauptet zuerst nur 6000 gehabt zu haben. Ja, unter Previligierten meinen Sie nun Freigestellte… wenn ich sage previligiert zu diesen Juden, da meine ich "previligiert" (mit Gänsefüßchen wenn ich previligiert meine, so meine ich das nach den Gesetzen – das sind 2 verschiedene Begriffe. Das was die previligiert nennen, ist weil sie u.k. gestellt sind, weil sie etwas herausgebracht haben sagen wir mal in irgendeiner Größe, sagen wir mal Reichshorizont, so wurde es ja auch herausgegeben – dadurch wurden sie dann in die previligierte Stufe erhoben.

Draft translation

7 Band 60 [HW: 624] But I know that some time ago there was once talk of the Jew-protection measures, where also among other things e.g. in Holland also the Commissioner for the Four-Year Plan had his emissaries sent out -- here he tracks down dealers in precious stones, dealers in antiquities, dealers in art paintings, who then here immediately received their protection-pass -- under this rubric that counts, if of course here the Reich Marshal does it, who here so pursued his passions, then one may indeed not be surprised that Huns and Kins here fished out of this pot for his personal or official concerns, that may be left open, and that it was indeed very hard, here to judge, what is right and what is wrong, in the sense of the National Socialist willing. I broached this theme already weeks and months ago, because this Dutch example was known to me Did you have to send Jews from the West to Auschwitz, who had to work there for the newly erected B.-Works? What they had to work for, that did not interest me at all Did you never hear of this Buna (?) Works? Yes, indeed, that was probably a works there with the ones from Heinkel, but I had to deliver my transports there to the places that the V&W HA prescribed to me. What the V&W HA needed them for, that stood in no file and that was also none of my concern..... On account of the difficulties Harster namely lowered the Maiqiote which had been fixed at 12,000, down to 8,000.-- Yes, one already had difficulties..... One then had to take out exempted privileged Jews and thus one then got the 8,000 together. So, but that I hardly believe.... Yes, one combed through the list of the exempted and claimed at first to have had only 6000. Yes, by privileged you now mean exempted......when I say privileged with regard to these Jews, there I mean "privileged" (with quotation marks) when I mean privileged, then I mean it according to the laws---those are 2 different concepts. That which t h e y call privileged is because they are made u.k. [indispensable], because they brought something out let us say in some size, let us say Reich-horizon, thus it was indeed also issued -- through this they were then raised into the privileged rank.

They were not, in truth, privileged before the law.

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

From the beginning of May, weekly transports of 2,000 Jews began moving again. They did not go to Auschwitz, but to So..

Questioner

Have you heard of this concentration camp?

Eichmann

Actually, I no longer remember it very well.

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

Because the crematoria in Auschwitz were fully occupied by the deportations from Berlin and Sa..

Eichmann

Really?

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

And the inmates of this concentration camp, So., were almost all killed. There were no survivors… Only 16 women and 3 men returned from there after the war. So. was in Poland, and all these trains arrived from Westerburg.

Eichmann

So Westerburg was cleared out?

Questioner

It says nothing here about clearing it out. It only says that

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

a train left Westerburg every Tuesday and arrived on Friday at the remote place in So., 110 kilometers from Lublin.

Eichmann

So, Globocnik, but I never…

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

On some Tuesdays two trains left. In this way a total of 34,313 Jews from Holland reached the secret death camp on the bank of the ….

Eichmann

How precise…

Questioner

Well, those figures… Westerburg was very precisely recorded by the German side. A great many Jews were also claimed back by the German side, as so-called exempted Jews, “people’s Jews” (Volksjuden)… The Wehrmacht wanted people, the economy did… There were Jews in the Dutch governing party;

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

thirteen old Party comrades had permission not to wear the Jewish star. Likewise an art expert and an Olympic champion.

Eichmann

The art expert goes on H. Goering’s account…

Questioner

Then a German Olympic champion made a demand, and the son-in-law of a former royal librarian.

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

Besides, Dr. Calmeyer, of the German Commissariat for Justice, demanded that 370 members of the Amsterdam Portuguese Jewish community, who had no points of contact with the Eastern Jews, be placed separately in an internment camp. His demand succeeded. In contrast to the largest sa… community in the Balkans, in Salonika, which was completely exterminated.

Open page image and German
Page 624 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 624 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Es waren in Wahrheit keine Previligierten vor dem Gesetz. Von Anfang Mai rollten dann wieder wöchentliche Transporte von 2 000 Juden. Und zwar gingen die nicht nach Auschwitz, sondern nach So. Haben Sie von diesem KL etwa gehört? Eigentlich ist es mir nicht mehr so in Erinnerung. Denn in Auschwitz waren die Krematorien durch die Verschickungen aus Berlin und Sa. voll besetzt. So? – Und die Insassen von diesem KL So… wurden fast alle umgebracht es gab keine Überlebende… nur 16 Frauen und 3 Männer kamen nach dem Krieg von dort zurück. So… war in Polen und diese Züge kamen alle aus Westerburg an. Also ist Westerburg geräumt worden? Von Räumung steht hier nichts, es heißt hier nur, es verließ jeden Dienstag ein Zug Westerburg. Und kam am Freitag an der abgelegenen Stelle in So… an, 110 Km von Lublin. Also Globocnizz, aber ich habe nie… An manchen Dienstagen gingen 2 Züge ab, auf diese Weise erreichten insgesamt 34 313 Juden aus Holland das geheime Todeslager am Ufer des…(?) Wie genau… Nun diese Ziffern… Westerburg war von deutscher Seite sehr genau erfaßt… nun es wurden auch von deutscher Seite sehr viele Juden reklamiert und war als sogen. freigestellte Juden, Volksjuden… die Wehrmacht verlangte Leute, die Wirtschaft, … es gab in der Reg. Partei in der holländischen, die Juden waren, (daß 13 alte Parteigenossen die Erlaubnis hatten, den Judenstern nicht zu tragen), ebenso Bildersachverständiger, ein Olympiasieger… Der Bildersachverständiger geht auf Kosten von H. Göring… dann verlangte ein deutscher Olympiasieger und der Schwiegersohn eines früheren königlicher Bibliothekars. – Außerdem verlangte der Dr. Nalmeier von deutschen Kommissariat für Justiz daß 370 Mitglieder der Amsterdamer-portugiesischen jüd. Gemeinschaft, die keine Berührungspunkten mit den Ostjuden hatten, abgesondert in einem Internierungslager kamen und hatte mit seinem Verlangen Erfolg. Zum Unterschied der größten am Balkan befindlichen sa./… sefar… Gemeinde in Saloniki die restlos vernichtet wurde.

Draft translation

Band 60 s were in truth no privileged ones before the law. From the beginning of May then weekly transports of 2,000 Jews rolled again. And indeed these went not to Auschwitz, but to So. have you heard of this KL [concentration camp] perhaps? Actually it is no longer so in my memory. For in Auschwitz the crematoria were through the shipments from Berlin and Sa. full occupied. So?--- And the inmates of this KL So... were almost all killed there were no survivors... only 16 women and 3 men came back after the war from there. So.. was in Poland and these trains all arrived from Westerburg. So Westerburg was cleared out? Of clearing-out nothing stands here, it says here only, there left every Tuesday a train Westerburg. And arrived on Friday at the remote place in So..... , 110 km from Lublin. So Globocnizz, but I have never..... On some Tuesdays 2 trains departed, in this way there reached alto- gether 34,313 Jews from Holland the secret death camp on the bank of the...(?) How exactly... Now these figures...... Westerburg was from the German side very precisely recorded......now there were also from the German side very many Jews re- claimed and indeed as so-called exempted Jews, Volksjuden [ethnic/people's Jews]....... the Wehrmacht demanded people, the economy, ...... there were in the gov. party in the Dutch, who were Jews, (that 13 old party com- rades had the permission not to wear the Jewish star), likewise [DEL: a] a picture-expert, an Olympic victor.. The picture-expert goes at the expense of Mr. Goering.... then a German Olympic victor demanded and the son-in-law of a former royal librarian.-Besides the Dr. Nalmeier of the German Commissariat for Justice demanded that 370 members of the Amsterdam-Portuguese Jewish community, who had no points of contact with the Eastern Jews, come segregated in an internment camp and had success with his demand. In distinction from the largest sa./..... community located in the Balkans in Salonika which was utterly destroyed.

I cannot possibly remember all of that. It did not interest me at all…

Questioner

The diamond polishers…

Eichmann

Yes, yes, I know. When I was in Amsterdam or The Hague on a given day—or the other way round, Zoepf had been to see me—all I wanted to know was: first, do you have difficulties, and if so, what difficulties? Second, how many units do I get, and when? I was not responsible for local difficulties. I had had nothing to do in Holland.

Questioner

If such a Portuguese community is to be exempted on grounds of principle, then…

Eichmann

The guidelines were there, and they had to be followed.

Questioner

There were no guidelines for those who were to be exterminated and those who were to be exempted…

Eichmann

Of course the guidelines were there in Holland. But of course those were not mentioned in the guidelines. Naturally not. As a matter of principle, it was not mentioned…

Questioner

But then the whole thing is confused, if I exterminate in one place and exempt people in another…

Eichmann

Of course it is confused. But in the guidelines I did not lay down that decisions were to be based on Jewish Moll. horizons, but only on service to the Reich and on saving face before world opinion…

Questioner

But here racial grounds are decisive.

Eichmann

Jewish racial grounds—what do I care about the difference between … when it comes to deportations? Of course I knew it, but it is none of my business. It does not interest me at all…

Questioner

But why were they exterminated in Salonika and the others exempted?

Eichmann

That is what I am saying: the local offices are the ones to ask. That does not concern the central authorities. We did not bother with these trivial matters—whom they there, whom they exempted there. It did not interest us. Unless Goering happened to want to direct his picture-Jews through us, or some top gem-cutter-Jews. It was a group that had cut some kind of stone. I have forgotten the name of that odd stone. That much I still remember…

Open page image and German
Page 625 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 625 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Das kann mir ja gar nicht alles in Erinnerung sein, es interessierte mich ja gar nicht… … die Diamantenabschleifer… Ja, ja… weiß ich – wenn ich heute in Amsterdam war oder in DeHaag oder umgekehrt, Zoepf war bei mir gewesen, so interessierte mich bloß zu wissen, 1. habt ihr Schwierigkeiten? Wenn ja, welche 2. Wieviel Einheiten bekomme ich, in welcher Zeit? – Für örtl. Schwierigk. war ich ja nicht zuständig, ich hatte ja in Holland nicht zu tun gehabt. Wenn nun eine solche portug. Gemeinde ausgenommen werden soll, aus grundsätzlichen Überlegungen, dann… Da waren die Richtlinien gewesen, nach denen mußte verfahren werden… Es waren keine Richtlinien da für die die vernichtet werden sollen und für die die frei gestellt werden sollen… Natürlich waren in Holland die Richtlinien da, aber natürlich wurden die in den Richtlinien nicht erwähnt, selbstverst. nicht, es wurde grundsätzl. nicht erwähnt… Dann aber ist doch die ganze Sache konfus… wenn ich dort vernichte und dort wieder freistelle… Natürlich ist es konfus… aber in den Richtlinien habe ich ja nicht Horizonten herausgegeben, daß nach jüd. Moll. erkannt wird, sondern nur nach Gründen des Verdienstes dem Reich gegenüber und nach der Wahrung des Gesichtes vor der Weltöffentlichkeit… Aber hier sind rassische Gründe maßgebend. Jüd-rassische Gründe – was geht mich der Unterschied zwischen (?)an bei den Deportationen, natürlich habe ich es gewußt, aber es geht mich ja nichts an, es interessiert mich ja gar nicht… Warum sind die aber in Saloniki vernichtet worden und die andern ausgenommen worden… Das sage ich ja doch, dazu sind die örtl. Stellen zu fragen. Das geht nicht die Zentralinstanzen an, wir haben uns um diesen Kleinkram nicht gekümmert wen sas dort, wen sie dort ausgenommen haben, es interessierte uns nicht. Wenn nicht zufälligerweise Göring über uns seine Bilderjuden dirigiert haben wollte oder irgendwelche Spitzensteinschleiferjuden, es handelte sich da um eine Gruppe, die irgendeinen Stein geschliffen hat, den Namen hab ich vergessen von diesem komischen Stein,… das weiß ich noch…

Draft translation

Volume 60 [HW: 628] That cannot all be in my memory, it did not interest me at all.... ......... the diamond grinders..... Yes, yes....I know------ when I was in Amsterdam today or in The Hague or vice versa, Zoepf had been at my place, so it only interested me to know, 1. do you have difficulties? If yes, which 2. How many units do I get, in what time? --For local difficulties I was not responsible after all, I did not have anything to do in Holland after all. If now such a Portuguese community is to be excepted, out of fundamental considerations, then...... There the guidelines had been there, according to those it had to be proceeded... There were no guidelines there for those who are to be exterminated and for those who are to be exempted... Of course in Holland the guidelines were there, but of course they were not mentioned in the guidelines, self-evidently not, it was fundamentally not mentioned..... But then the whole thing is confused.....if I exterminate there and there again exempt.... Of course it is confused....but in the guidelines I did not [TS INS: horizons] issue that recognition should be by Jewish Moll., but only by grounds of merit toward the Reich and by the preservation of face before the world public..... But here racial grounds are decisive. Jewish-racial grounds- what does the difference concern me between (?)an in the deportations, of course I knew it, but it does not concern me at all, it does not interest me at all...... But why were they exterminated in Salonika and the others excepted... That is exactly what I am saying, for that the local offices are to be asked. That concerns [HW: [?Moell.?]] the central instances, we did not bother ourselves about this small stuff whom they seated there, whom they excepted there, it did not interest us. If not by chance Goering wanted to direct his picture-Jews over us or some kind of top gem-cutter-Jews, it was a matter of a group that ground some kind of stone, the name I have forgotten of this odd stone,...that I still know....

But otherwise carrying out the classification was the business of the subordinate offices, not the central authorities of the HSS. Except in the General Government and the occupied Russian territories—not there. My guidelines were not recognized there anyway, and they were not followed…

Now, just a moment, this Portuguese community… The gentleman from the Foreign Office has no authority to decide… Were they Jews with Portuguese citizenship?

Questioner

No…

Eichmann

Or was it only a spiritual orientation?

Questioner

No, origin in Portugal.

Eichmann

Then the Foreign Office had no authority to decide.

Questioner

No, it was the German Commissariat for Justice…

Eichmann

But bueno well, he cannot decide that either…

Questioner

No, he cannot decide that either. So IV B 4 must have given its approval in principle?

Eichmann

No, that was the man from Justice in Holland…

Questioner

He demanded it…

Eichmann

Then it was Harster. It was not my task.

Questioner

And Harster could do that without…

Eichmann

Yes, of course. He had his guidelines. If Harster granted it to him, then it is none of my business…

Questioner

As far as I know Harster, he took the case to Berlin by teleprinter. I am 100 percent convinced of that.

Eichmann

If he had not had the guidelines—assuming that—everyone has to do that.

Questioner

What do you mean, guidelines? These were se… Jews…

Eichmann

So it was not in there… They must be evacuated…

Questioner

But they were not evacuated…

Eichmann

Then Harster did it at his own discretion…

Questioner

He asked in Berlin. I am convinced of that…

Eichmann

I am not. If he had asked me, I would not have given him approval. It was not in the guidelines.

Questioner

Yes, that is exactly it. It is impossible for the commander of the Security Police to say to himself: yes, that makes sense to me; these are different people, they have nothing to do with Eastern Jewry, so we will exempt them—

Open page image and German
Page 627 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 627 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Aber sonst ging das die Nachgeordneten an, nicht die Zentralinstanzen, des HSS, die Klassifikation durchzuführen… mit Ausnahme des Gen Gov und den besetzten russ Gebieten, dort nicht, dort wurden ja meine Richtlinien sowieso nicht anerkannt und auch nicht danach verfahren… Nun Moment mal, diese portug. Gemeinde… der Herr vom auswärtigen Amt hat doch nichts zu bestimmen… Waren es Juden mit portug. Staatsangeh.? Nein… Oder war es nur geistige Ausrichtung… Nein, Herkunft Portugal Dann hatte das ausw. Amt nichts zu bestimmen Nein, es war ja auch das deutsche Kommissariat für Justiz – Aber bueno, der kann daß doch auch nicht bestimmen… Nein, der kann das auch nicht bestimmen Also muß IV B 4 doch grundsätzlich seine Zustimmung dazu gegeben haben? Nein, das war ja der Mann von Justiz in Holland gewesen… Der hat das verlangt… Dann war es Harstner gewesen, das war dann nicht meine Aufgabe. Und Harstner konnte das machen ohne… Ja, selbstverst., er hatte seine Richtlinien… Wenn Harstner es ihm zugebilligt hat, dann geht mich die Sache nichts an… Soviel ich Harstner kenne, hat der den Fall nach Berlin gebracht, durch Fernschreiben, davon bin ich 100% überzeugt. Wenn er nicht die Richtlinien gehabt hätte, … das unterstellt… das muß jeder machen Was heißt Richtlinien… es handelt sich da doch um se… Juden… Also stand es nicht drin… muß evakuiert werden… Aber sie sind nicht evakuiert worden… Dann hat Harstner es aus eigenem Ermessen gemacht… Der hat in Berlin angefragt, davon bin ich überzeugt… Ich nicht, wenn er mich gefragt hätte, hätte ich ihm kein Placet gegeben, es stand nicht in den Richtlinien. Ja, das ist es ja, es ist doch unmöglich, daß der Bef. d. Sipe sich sagt, ja das leuchtet mir ein, das sind andere, die haben mit dem Ost Judentum nichts zu tun, also die werden wir mal ausnehmen

Draft translation

20 Volume 60 [HW: 627] But otherwise that concerned the subordinate offices, not the central authorities, of the HSS, to carry out the classification...with the exception of the Gen Gov [General Government] and the occupied Russ[ian] territories, not there, there my guidelines were not recognized anyway and also not proceeded according to... Now just a moment, this Portug[uese] community.... the gentleman from the Foreign Office has nothing to determine after all.... Were they Jews with Portug[uese] citizenship? No.... Or was it only spiritual orientation... No, origin Portugal Then the For[eign] Office had nothing to determine No, it was also the German Commissariat for Justice---- But bueno, he can't determine that either.... No, he can't determine that either So IV B 4 must fundamentally have given its consent to it then? No, that was the man from Justice in Holland.... He demanded that.... Then it was Harstner [DEL: [?gagaba?]], that was then not my task. And Harstner could do that without...... Yes, of course, he had his guidelines.... If Harstner granted it to him, then the matter is none of my business.... As far as I know Harstner, he brought the case to Berlin, by teleprinter, of that I am 100% convinced. If he had not had the guidelines, ......that supposes...... that everyone must do What does guidelines mean.......it's a matter there of [se ....] Jews.... So it wasn't in there.... must be evacuated... But they were not evacuated.... Then Harstner did it at his own discretion... He inquired in Berlin, of that I am convinced.... I am not, if he had asked me, I would not have given him any [?Placet?], it was not in the guidelines. Yes, that is just it, it is impossible after all that the Cmdr. of the Sipo [Security Police] says to himself, yes that makes sense to me, those are others, they have nothing to do with the Eastern Jewry, so we will just make an exception of them

Questioner

but he had to turn to Berlin, and if he did so, then to IV B 4—

He can do as he likes. What interests me is: do you have difficulties, and if so, where? And how many do I get from you, and when? Nothing else interested me. He had the guidelines, after all. But if there is something like this business with the communities, something that is not provided for…

Questioner

Then he has to check back with you.

Eichmann

No, he does not need to at all. Where would we get to in Berlin if everyone came over every little complication, every Kohn or Kuhn who belongs to some monarchist party and has been given some Order of Leopold from Buxtehude? It says right there that holders of decorations for bravery are to be exempted. What are the guidelines there for, then?

Questioner

Agreed, from the point at which the people would have been deported—but they were exempted…

Then Harster simply said: let us hold them back; we have enough others…

Eichmann

But he did not have enough others. That was precisely the difficulty: finding that many people, because so many were protected.

He never delivered the full number to me either. If he said 40,000, I was glad to get 2,000. I knew that from experience. When I had negotiated 40,000 with him, I was glad if he sent me 5,000 or 8,000. Fine…

Then I went there again and negotiated again…

In Holland it was always a figure of 4. The figure 40,000 follows me through every country; again and again 40,000 comes up. It almost seems to me—the men did get together, Dannecker and Zoepf, and they will have talked to each other: well, what did you report? 40,000. Yes, 40,000 too, and so on. They always notified me by teleprinter—not always, but mostly—and they probably arranged a meeting with Harster: what do we tell Eichmann when he comes? I would have done the same, that is clear. They probably agreed among themselves on 40,000. Of course, from experience I already knew, when they gave me a ballpark figure, how much I would get…

Open page image and German
Page 628 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 628 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

er mußte sich aber an Berlin richten und wenn er das getan hat, dann an IV B 4 – Kann er ja machen wie er will, mich interessiert, hast Du Schwierigkeiten, wenn ja, wo – und wieviel bekomme ich von Dir, und wann, – nichts anderes hat mich interessiert – die Richtlinien hatte er ja. Ist aber etwas so wie diese Sache mit den Gemeinden, das nicht vorgesehen ist… Dann muß er bei Ihnen rückfragen Nein, brauch' er ja gar nicht… wo kämen wir ja hin in Berlin wenn jeder wegen jedem Rattenschwanz, wegen jedem Kohn oder Kuhn, der irgendeiner monarchistischen Partei zugehört und irgendeinen Leopoldsorden von Buxtehude verpaßt bekommen hat… und es steht ja drin, Inhaber mit Tapferkeitsauszeichen sind auszunehmen… wo sind die Richtlinien denn da.??? Einverstanden, von dem Augenblick ab, wo die Leute deportiert gewesen waren, aber sie sind ausgenommen worden… Hat Harstner eben gesagt; Stell'n wir sie zurück… wir haben ja genügend andere… Aber er hat gar nicht genügend andere gehabt, es war ja gerade diese Schwierigkeiten, soviel Leute aufzubringen, weil soviel beschützt waren. Er hat mir ja auch nie die volle Zahl geliefert, wenn er mir 40 000 gesagt hat, war ich schon froh, 2 000 zu bekommen. das habe ich ja gewußt aus Erfahrung… wenn ich 40 000 mit ihm abgehandelt hatte, dann war ich froh gewesen, wenn er mir 5 oder 8 000 schickte. – Gut… Und dann bin ich wieder hingefahren und habe wieder abgehandelt… Es war in Holland immer wieder eine Zahl von 4 gewesen, überhaupt die Zahl von 40 000 verfolgt mich durch alle Ländern, immer wieder kommt die Zahl 40 000. – Es kommt mir beinahe so vor – die Leute sind ja nun auch zusammen gekommen, der Dannecker, der Zoepf und sie werden miteinander gesprochen haben, nun was habt ihr gemeldet? – 40 000, ja auch 40 000 usw… sie haben mich ja immer avisiert durch Fernschreiben, nicht immer, aber meistens, und sie werden wohl eine Besprechung anberaumt haben mit dem Harstner und was sagen wir nun dem Eichmann, wenn er kommt? Das hätte ich auch getan, das ist klar und sie werden sich wohl untereinander geeinigt haben auf 40 000. – Natürlich wußte ich schon, aus der Praxis, wenn sie mir eine Hausnummer nannten, wieviel ich bekam…

Draft translation

11 Band 60 [HW: 628] but he had to address himself to Berlin, and when he did that, then to IV B 4-- He can of course do as he likes, what interests me is, do you have difficulties, if so, where----and how much do I get from you, and when, -- nothing else interested me---- he had the guidelines after all. But it is something like this matter with the communities, that is not provided for..... Then he has to inquire back with you No, he doesn't need to at all.....where would we end up in Berlin if everyone for every rat's-tail, for every Kohn or Kuhn, who belongs to some monarchist party and has been given some Leopold order from Buxtehude....and it does say in there, holders with bravery decorations are to be exempted.... where are the guidelines then there.??? Agreed, from the moment on, when the people had been deported, but they were exempted..... Harstner just said; Let's put them back.....we have enough others..... But he did not have enough others at all, it was precisely these difficulties, to raise so many people, because so many were protected. He also never delivered me the full number, when he told me 40,000 I was already glad to get 2,000. that I knew from experience...when I had negotiated 40,000 with him, then I was glad when he sent me 5 or 8,000.-- Good.. And then I drove there again and negotiated again..... In Holland it was always again a number of 4, in general the number of 40,000 pursues me through all the countries, again and again comes the number 40,000.---- It almost seems to me---- the people did now also come together, Dannecker, Zoepf and they will have spoken with one another, well what did you report?---40,000, yes also 40,000 e.w...... they always advised me by teleprinter, not always, but mostly, and they will probably have scheduled a discussion with Harstner and what do we now say to [HW: ⑥]ichmann, when he comes? That I would also have done, that is clear and they will probably have agreed among themselves on 40,000.-------Naturally I already knew, from practice, when they named me a house-number, how much I would get..

Naturally, because of that experience, I did not have the timetable drawn up for 40,000. If they really sent 40,000, I would have a supplementary timetable drawn up. Adding a supplementary timetable for 30,000 to an operation of 10,000 already running was easier than drawing up a timetable for 5,000. Do you understand that?

Questioner

Yes, you attach a few more wagons…

Eichmann

I do not know about that. I know too little about the technical side of timetables. Somehow it works out better in terms of travel or traffic. They were freight wagons, and the principle was that no wagon was allowed to run empty. But fitting something new into the existing timetables—that, I think, was the difficult part…

[unintelligible on the recording] (interjected question; new, unknown voice)

I have this to say about it. I once produced an instructional booklet in the Security Service, in which I described the history of the Jewish people. I came to the point where I said that, after the destruction of Jerusalem, the Jews were expelled by the Romans. Some moved across the North African coastal region and then came to Spain. They were expelled from there by Isabella the Catholic and Franz of Aragon within a quarter of a year. Some of them then went over to Western Europe, as far as Germany, and some later went by way of England to America: the so-called O. emigration, as the Jews themselves call it. The other part then the Turkic lands and settled in our [? present] territories —European Russia, Poland, the Baltic states, and so on.

There, where they amused themselves mainly with handicraft jokes, where the number of children was enormous, where they had to struggle with the hardships of nature and against their human surroundings, the Jews drew together and clung to the traditions of their spiritual (and illegible). There they also kept Orthodoxy firmly rooted. There the Talmudic schools were founded, there the … was taught, and the smallest Jewish children were equipped with a knowledge of several languages—not only the language of the people among whom they were living, whether Russian, Polish or the like, but English, French and German, and mainly German. Germany was the first territory they made for. They came to Breslau; Breslau took them in first.

Open page image and German
Page 629 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 629 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Natürlich habe ich mir dann nicht aus der Erfahrung heraus den Fahrplan erstellen lassen, für 40 000, – wenn sie wirklich 40 000 schickten, laß ich einen Zusatzfahrplan erstellen. Ein Zusatzfahrplan für 30 000 zu einem rollenden Unternehmen von 10 000 war leichter zu erstellen, als wie ein Fahrplan für 5 000… – Verstehen Sie das? Ja, da hängt man ein paar Wagen an… Das weiß ich nicht, dafür bin ich zu wenig fahrplantechn. unterrichtet, das geht irgendwie besser reisetechn. oder verkehrstechn. raus, es waren ja Güterwagen gewesen, und es war das Prinzip, daß kein Wagen leer fahren durfte. – Aber eine Sache neu hineinzubauen in die bereits bestehenden Fahrplänen, das ist glaube ich das Schwere gewesen… Zwischenfrage unverständlich… (unbekannte Stimme, neu –) Ich habe dazu folgendes zu sagen, ich habe einmal ein Leitheft erstellt, im SD, und da habe ich die Geschichte des jüd. Volkes geschildert und da kam ich denn dazu und sagte, nach der Zerstörung Jerusalems wurden die Juden durch die Römer vertrieben. Ein Teil bewegte sich über nordafrikanisches Küstengebiet, kam dann nach Spanien, wurde dort von Isabella der Katholischen und Franz von Aragonien vertrieben, innerhalb eines Vierteljahres, von denen ging ein Teil dann rüber nach Westeuropa, kam auch bis nach Deutschland herein und ein Teil ging rüber später dann über England bis nach Amerika, die sogen. O. W Emigration, so wird sie ja auch genannt von den Juden. Der andere Teil [unleserlich] die Turkländer und setzte sich fest in unserem [unleserlich] europäisches Rußland, Polen, baltische Staaten usw… Dort wo sie sich hauptsächlich mit handwerklichen Scherzen amüsierten, wo der Kinderreichtum ein ungeheuer war, wo sie kämpfen mußten mit der Natur, [unleserlich] gegen [unleserlich] der menschlichen Umgebung, [unleserlich] zogen sich die Juden zusammen und krampften sich an die Überlieferungen [unleserlich] Dort haben sie auch die Orthodoxie verwurzelt erhalten. Dort wurden die talmud.- [unleserlich] Schulen gegründet, dort wurde der bibl… gelehrt, und die jüd. Kleinstkinder mit dem Wissen verschiedener Sprachen ausgerüstet, nicht nur mit der Sprache des augenblicklichen Volkes, sei es russisch, polnisch odgl… sondern englisch, franz. deutsch, und hauptsächlich deutsch, denn Deutschland war das erste Gebiet, was sie ansprangen, nach Breslau kamen, Breslau nahm sie zuerst auf.

Draft translation

Band 60 12 [HW: 628] Naturally [DEL: xir] I did not then have the timetable drawn up out of experience, for 40 000 — if they really sent 40 000 [zz] I have a supplementary timetable drawn up for them. A supplementary timetable for 30 000 to an already-rolling operation of 10 000 was easier to draw up than a timetable for 5 000..-- Do you understand that? Yes, then one attaches a few wagons... That I do not know, on that I am too little instructed in timetable-technical [matters], it somehow works out better travel-technically or traffic-technically, they were after all freight wagons, and it was the principle that no wagon was permitted to run empty.--- But to build one thing anew into the already-existing timetables, that I believe was the hard part... Interjected question unintelligible....(unknown voice, new----) On this I have the following to say, I once drew up an instructional booklet, in the SD, and there I portrayed the history of the Jewish people and there I came then to it and said, after the destruction of Jerusalem the Jews were driven out by the Romans. One part moved across the North African coastal region, then came to Spain, was there driven out by Isabella the Catholic and Franz of Aragon, within a quarter-year, of whom one part then went over to Western Europe, came also as far as into Germany, and one part went over later then via England as far as America, the so-called O.[HW: [illegible]] emigration, so it is indeed also called by the Jews. The other part [DEL: now went over across] [HW: [illegible]] the Turk-lands and settled firmly in our [DEL: then-Territories,] [HW: [illegible]] [DEL: upper] European Russia, Poland, Baltic states etc....There where they amused themselves mainly with handicraft jests, where the wealth of children was an enormous [thing], where they had to struggle with nature, [HW: [illegible]] against [DEL: the hardships] [HW: [illegible]] of the human surroundings, [HW: [illegible]] the Jews drew themselves together and clung to the traditions [DEL: of the spiritual leader.] [HW: [illegible]] There they also got the orthodoxy rooted [DEL: given.] [HW: obtained/received.] There the Talmudic-[HW: [illegible]] schools were founded, there the [HW: [illegible]] was taught, and the Jewish smallest-children equipped with the knowledge of various languages, not only with the language of the momentary people, be it Russian, Polish or the like....but English, French, German, and mainly German, for Germany was the first region that they leapt at, came to Breslau, Breslau took them in first.

What came out of that later was Yiddish—not Hebrew and not German, but written in Hebrew letters. Entire daily newspapers came into being. Whereas the Western Jew, the S…, came into a region that was culturally far above the East. What had once stood higher in the East—let us say the religion of the Turkic peoples—was already condemned to decline by that time.

They came to France and learned the so-called fine life there. They soon assimilated and had no desire for religious activity of any kind, still less for intensified religious activity, unlike their racial brothers in the East. Instead, they tried to merge into the host people. The Se… are themselves the prime type (Bruttotype) for merging among a host people. Tell a distinguished sef… Jew that he is a Jew, and he tells you: I am a Spaniard, or I am of Spanish descent. That is what you can hear, but not “Jew”…

Questioner

But just a moment, a large proportion—

Eichmann

There is no large proportion…

Questioner

Among the rabbis—

Eichmann

Yes, yes, name Spinoza. That is an exception. He is mentioned often enough, and, apart from a few minor secondary rabbis, he is repeatedly presented as the chief rabbi.

Questioner

Yet Spinoza was precisely the one the rabbis expelled…

Eichmann

Those are exceptions of just the same kind. As I am telling you, the counterpart is that among the … you find Jews whom, at first glance, you could not say were Jews at all, but rather descendants of Germanic nobility. They are the sheikhs with blue eyes, freckles and red hair. They mingled and mixed with the native population there, and over hundreds of years this type emerged. Do you know this type?

Questioner

Yes, yes.

Eichmann

Up there you also have remnants of Khazars. Originally they are not Jews at all, but an eastern population that adopted Judaism. Of course, today, after so many years, they count as Jews. Insofar as they have not mixed with Jewish blood, they are not Jews in themselves, logically speaking—but under the Nuremberg laws, of course they are.

Open page image and German
Page 630 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 630 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

heraus kam dann später das jidd, nicht hebräisch und nicht deutsch, aber in heb. Lettern niedergeschrieben, ganze Tageszeitungen sind entstanden. Während der Westjude der S[unleserlich], der kam in eine Gegend herein die kulturell weitaus höher stand, als der Osten. Denn was im Osten einmal höher stand, sagen wir einmal die Religion der Turkvölker, war ja um jene Zeit schon zum Niedergang verurteilt. Sie kamen nach Frankreich und lernten dort das sogen. feine Leben assim. al bald und hatten gar kein Verlangen irgendwie nach religiöser Betätigung, noch forcierter religiöser Betätigung, – wie ihre Rassebrüder im Osten, sondern versuchten aufzugehen. im Wirtsvolk. Die Se sind an sich die Bruttotype im Aufgehen eines unter Wirtsvolkes. Sagen Sie mal einem vornehmen sef[unleserlich] Juden, er sei ein Jude, er sagt Ihnen ich bin ein Spanier oder ich bin spanischer Abkunft. Das können Sie hören, aber nicht Jude… Aber Moment mal, ein Großteil Ein Großteil gibt es nicht… Unter den Rabbis – Ja, ja nennen Sie mir den Spinoza, das ist eine Ausnahme, der wird auch zur Genüge genannt und mit Ausnahme von ein paar kleinen Nebenrabbis, immer wieder als Hauptrabbi rausgestellt Wo doch Spinoza gerade von den Rabbis ausgestoßen wurde… Das sind ebensolche Ausnahmen, wie ich Ihnen sage, als Gegenstück, daß Sie bei den A Sefardimus eine, jene Juden vorfinden, bei denen Sie im ersten Augenblick gar nicht sagen können, sie haben einen Juden vor sich, sondern einen germanischen Edelabkömmling. Das sind die Scheiche mit blauen Augen, Sommersprossen und roten Haaren. Die haben sich dort mit der bodenstämmigen Bevölkerung vermengt und vermischt und im Laufe der Hunderten von Jahren ist dieser Typ heraus gekommen. Kennen Sie diesen Typ? Ja, ja Sie haben dann da oben noch Reste von [unleserlich] Chasaren, das sind an sich ursprünglich keine Juden, sondern das sind asiat. östl. Bevölkerung, die sich zum Judentum bekannt hat, natürlich heute, noch so vielen Jahren, zählen sie zu den Juden, – sofern sie sich nicht mit jüd. Blut gemischt haben sind sie an sich keine Juden… – logisch gesehen, nach den Nürnbergergesetzen aber selbstverst.

Draft translation

out of it then later came the Yiddish, not Hebrew and not German, but written down in Hebrew letters, entire daily newspapers came into being. Whereas the Western Jew, the S[?ephard?], he came into a region that culturally stood far higher than the East. For what once stood higher in the East, let us say the religion of the Turkic peoples, was already at that time condemned to decline. They came to France and there learned the so-called fine life, assim[ilated] soon enough and had no desire whatsoever for any kind of religious activity, nor for any more forced religious activity,—like their race- brothers in the East, but rather tried to merge into the host people. The Se[phardim] are in themselves the prime type in the merging into a [HW: among] host people. Just tell a distinguished Sef[illegible] Jew that he is a Jew, he tells you I am a Spaniard or I am of Spanish descent. That you can hear, but not Jew.... But just a moment, a large part There is no large part.... Among the rabbis— Yes, yes, name me the [HW: [?5?]] Spinoza, that is an exception, he is also named quite sufficiently and, with the exception of a few small side-rabbis, again and again put forward as the chief rabbi When Spinoza was precisely cast out by the rabbis..... Those are just such exceptions, as I tell you, as a counterpart, that among the A[DEL: [illegible]] [HW: [?2?]] [HW: [?Sephardism?]] you find one, those Jews with whom you at the first moment cannot say at all, you have a Jew before you, but rather a Germanic noble descendant. Those are the sheikhs with blue eyes, freckles and red hair. They have there mingled and mixed with the native population and in the course of the hundreds of years this type has come out. Do you know this type? Yes, yes You then have up there still remnants of [HW: [illegible]] Khazars, those are in themselves origin- ally not Jews, but rather those are [HW: [?Asiatic?]] eastern population who professed Judaism, of course today, after so many years, they count among the Jews,—insofar as they have not mixed with Jewish blood they are in themselves not Jews...—logically seen, but according to the Nuremberg laws of course [they are].

Although that is not right—the law is not right there, because that very law is meant to go by blood.

Questioner

But that would surely be a mistake here, because with this Jewry in particular it is the spirit that determines things.

Eichmann

Yes, but it is a law for the protection of blood, and the spirit does not determine the blood. I only brought that up as evidence—as the counterexample to the assertion that the Se… Jew was not the brutal type (brutte Typ) of the assimilated Jew, judging by outward appearance…

Questioner

Do you know of any Jewish influence that advocated singling out the se…, the liberal Jews?

Eichmann

No. But I can say that Storfer in Vienna told me one day: Mr. Oberstuf. (Obersturmführer)… He brought me a book published by his former army commander, an Austrian field marshal and Lieutenant General So-and-so. He leafs through it and shows me a photograph: Storfer in the uniform of a major in the Imperial and Royal Hungarian-Austrian army. A major in the supply troops, of course, but still decorated with all sorts of medals. He looked dashing. And he said to me: Mr. Oberstf. (Obersturmführer), I am a Western Jew, I am assimilation-minded, I want nothing to do with Jewry.

And in fact Storfer was undermined and rejected by Loewenherz for a long, long time. Only because Storfer brought along this Dr. Neumann, the famous surgeon—he was hard of hearing… I still remember a discussion when I spoke to a man somehow, a Jew, and said to Neumann: yes, that bastard (Sack) has already cleared off. Then he turns to Storfer and says: excuse me, what did the gentleman just say? And Storfer says: Mr. Oberstf. (Obersturmführer) said that a Mr. Sack has already cleared off.

I still remember it because we laughed so much. That was Storfer, and that sentence too characterizes him. He was Mr. Commercial Councillor (Kommerzialrat), who could afford to buy himself the title, who wanted nothing to do with the dirty, stinking Eastern Jew, who would have been positively insulted to be mentioned in the same breath as that whole pack. Nevertheless, he worked very properly and diligently for Jewry, after he had doubtless been correspondingly confirmed konfirmiert by Loewenherz and his people.

The best proof is Chaim Weizmann’s book on the founding of Israel, in which he writes about Western Jewry in the foulest terms.

Open page image and German
Page 631 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 631 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Obwohl das nicht stimmt, da stimmt das Gesetz nicht, denn das gerade Gesetz will ja nach dem Blut gehen. – Aber das wäre hier wohl doch ein Irrtum, denn gerade bei diesem Judentum ist es ja der Geist der bestimmt. Ja, aber es ist ein Blutschutzgesetz und der Geist bestimmt ja nicht das Blut. – und ich habe ja nur das als Beweis gebracht, das Gegenstück gegen die Behauptung das der Se… Jude, nicht der brutte Typ der assim. sei…, nach dem Äußeren Ist Ihnen von einem jüd. Einfluß etwas bekannt, der diese Herausschälung der se…, liberaler Juden befürwortet habe? Nein, – aber ich kann nur sagen, daß der Storfer in Wien mir gesagt hat eines Tages; Herr Oberstuf. … er brachte mir ein Buch, das hat sein ehem. Armeechef heraus gegeben, ein östr. Feldmarschall und Generallt. Sowieso, und blättert er so um und zeigt mir eine Fotografie, – Storfer in der Uniform eines Major in der K.K. Ungar. Östr. Armee, natürlich ein Major der Versorgungstruppen, aber immerhin er war dekoriert mit allerhand Orden schneidig sah er aus, – ja und da sagte er mir, Herr Oberstf., ich bin "Westjude, ich bin assim. eingestellt, ich will von Judentum nichts wissen. Und tatsächlich ist Storfer lange lange Zeit von Löwenherz torpediert und abgelehnt worden. Nur weil Storfer diesen Dr. Neumann mitbrachte, den berühmten Chirurgen, er war schwerhörig… ich entsinne mich noch einer Debatte, als ich da irgendwie einen Mann ansprach, einen Juden, und da sagte ich zum Neumann; "ja der Sack ist ja schon abgehauen –" Und da sagt er zum Storfer gewandt; bitte was hat der Herr eben gesagt? und da sagt der Storfer, der Herr Oberstf. hat gesagt, daß ein Herr Sack schon abgehauen ist… Mir ist es noch in Erinnerung, weil wir so lachen mußten. Das war Storfer und auch dieser Satz charakterisiert den Storfer. Das war der Herr Kommerzialrat, der sich leisten konnte sich diesen Titel zu kaufen, der nichts wissen wollte von dem dreckigen, stinkigen Ostjuden, der geradezu beleidigt gewesen wäre, hätte man ihn mit diesem ganzen Pack in einem Atemzug genannt. Trotzdem hat er sehr ordentlich und fleißig für das Judentum gearbeitet, nachdem er zweifellos von Löwenherz und seinen Leuten entsprechend konfirmiert worden ward. Der beste Beweis dafür ist das Buch von Chaim Waizmann über die Gründung von Israel, wo er ja eigentlich in der übelsten Form über das Westjudentum schreibt.

Draft translation

Although that is not correct, the law is not correct there, because precisely this law does want to go by the blood.— But that would surely be an error here, because precisely with this Jewry it is the spirit that determines. Yes, but it is a blood-protection law and the spirit does not determine the blood.—— and I have indeed only brought that as proof, [DEL: [illegible]] [TS INS: the counter-piece] against the assertion that the Se.... ... . Jew, not the brutal type, is the assim[ilated] one....., [HW: [illegible]] Is any Jewish influence known to you that advocated this singling-out of the se........, liberal Jews? No,—but I can only say that the Storfer in Vienna told me one day; Herr Oberstuf[ührer] ..... he brought me a book, that was published by his former [DEL: division chief] [HW: [?commandant?]], an Austrian field marshal and lieutenant general. Anyway, and he leafs through it like that and shows me a photograph,—Storfer in the uniform of a major in the I[mperial and] R[oyal] Hungarian Austrian Army, of course a major of the supply troops, but still he was decorated with all sorts of medals, dashing he looked,—-yes and then he said to me, Herr Oberstf[ührer], I am a "Western Jew, I am assim[ilation]-minded, I want to know nothing of Jewry. And in fact Storfer was for a long long time torpedoed and rejected by Loewenherz. Only because [DEL: Loewenherz] [HW: Storfer] brought along this Dr. Neumann, the famous surgeon, he was hard of hearing...... I still recall a debate, when I somehow addressed a man, a Jew, and then I said to Neumann,; "yes the fellow has already cleared off——" And then he says, turning to Storfer; excuse me, what did the gentleman just say? and then Storfer says, the Herr Oberstf[ührer] said that a [HW: Herr] Sack [/sack/fellow] has already cleared off..... It is still in my memory, because we had to laugh so much. That was Storfer and this sentence too characterizes the Storfer..That was the Herr Kommerzialrat, who could afford to buy himself this title, who wanted to know nothing of the dirty, stinking Eastern Jew, who would have been positively insulted, had one named him in the same breath with this whole pack. Nevertheless he worked very properly and diligently for Jewry, [HW: [illegible]] although he was doubtless correspondingly confirmed by Loewenherz and his people. The best proof of that is the book by Chaim Waizmann about the founding of Israel, where he actually writes about Western Jewry in the vilest form.

that is, he does not regard German Jewry as having full value, but only Eastern Jewry…

Because for the most part they were trying to forget their Jewishness and disguise themselves as Germans. That was the great danger for us. That is why I said: allow the Zionists everything; why ban Orthodoxy? No, the ones we have to crack down on are the assimilation-minded Jews. They harm us. That is the danger. And the assimilation-minded Jews were rejected by Orthodoxy and Zionism…

Unknown speaker

But I believe the Jews have been brought completely back together again.

Yes, brought together through us…

Eichmann

What would have happened to Jewry if it had shown the indifference displayed, for example, by the Indian in South America? What is the Indian? The Indian once called the whole territory his own. They had great cultural empires. They let themselves be subjugated by a few Spaniards—later others joined them—and let themselves be pushed back. Today they are absorbed into the South American region and live just like the Italian or the Spaniard. In short, they have no significance anymore.

The Jew would certainly have been condemned to insignificance if he had not succeeded in establishing spiritual centers, especially in the East. If Orthodoxy had not preached ghettoization through the centuries—voluntary ghettoization at first—there would already have been a dissolution in the earliest times of the Middle Ages.

So they came together like the Swabians in the southeastern region on the military frontier, which, under Maria Theresa, [? geschlossen …]—and the children still speak almost the original Swabian today, as though they had grown up in their homeland…

There the children were forced into the Talmudic schools and were taught their subjects. Later they were also sent off separately to the West, because the colonies were far too numerous and the children could not be fed. And what did they become—through training their brains from earliest childhood, when our children were still playing with dolls? Doctors, lawyers and other such things. And if he was a merchant, then certainly not the worst…

And now, through the forced migration to the West, which again and again—

Open page image and German
Page 632 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 632 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

d.h. nimmt das deutsche Judentum nicht für vollwertig, sondern nur das Ostjudentum… Weil sie ja zum großen Teil bestrebt waren, ihr Judentum zu vergessen und sich als Deutsche zu tarnen. Und das war auch die große Gefahr für uns, deshalb habe ich ja gesagt – Zionisten alles erlauben, warum die Orthodoxie verbieten – nein, denen wir auf den Schwanz treten müssen, das sind die assim. eingestellten Juden, die schaden uns. das ist die Gefahr. Und die assim. eingestellten Juden wurden verworfen von der Orthodoxie und vom Zionismus… Aber ich glaube es ist gelungen die Juden wieder restlos zusammen zuführen. Ja, über uns sie zusammen zu führen… Was wäre mit dem Judentum passiert, wenn es jene Lauheit an den Tag gelegt hätte, wie etwa der Indio in Südamerika? Was ist der Indianer, der Indio hat einmal das ganze Gebiet sein genannt – große Kulturreiche haben sie gehabt – durch ein paar Spanier, später kamen andere hinzu, haben sie sich unterjochen lassen, haben sich zurückdrängen lassen – heute sind sie absolviert absorbiert im Südamerikanischen Raum, leben genau wie der Italiener, der Spanier – kurz, sie haben keine Bedeutung mehr. Der Jude wäre bestimmt zur Bedeutungslosigkeit verurteilt worden, wäre es ihm nicht gelungen, hier geistige Zentren zu haben, besonders im Osten. Durch Jahrhunderte hatte die Orthodoxie nicht die Ghettoisierung gepredigt, die freiwillige Ghettoisierung zuerst, wäre es schon in den frühesten Zeiten des Mittelalters zu einer Auflösung gekommen. So haben sie sich wie die Schwaben im Südostraum an der militärischen Grenze, die wir unter seit Maria Theresia, geschlossen [unleserlich] zusammen gefunden und die Kinder sprechen heute noch fast noch das original schwäbische, als wenn sie in ihrer Heimat aufgewachsen wären… Dort sind die Kinder hineingepreßt worden in die Talmudischen Schulen, und haben ihre Sachen gelehrt bekommen. Sind auch nach dem Westen abgesondert worden später, weil die Kolonien gar zu zahlreich waren und die Kinder nicht ernährt werden konnten, und was sind sie geworden (auf Grund ihres Gehirntrainings seit frühester Jugend, wo unsere Kinder noch mit Puppen spielten,)) Ärzte Rechtsanwälte und sonstiges Zeug und wenn er Kaufmann war, bestimmt dann nicht der Schlechteste. – Und nun durch die forcierte Abwanderung nach dem Westen, die immer wieder

Draft translation

15 Volume 60 [HW: 637] i.e. does not consider German Jewry as fully valid, but only Eastern Jewry..... Because they were to a large extent striving to forget their Jewishness and to disguise themselves as Germans. And that was also the great danger for us, that is why I said---allow the Zionists everything, why forbid the Orthodoxy--no, the ones whose tail we have to step on, those are the assim.[ilation]-minded Jews, they harm us. that is the danger. And the assim.[ilation]-minded Jews were rejected by the Orthodoxy and by Zionism.... But I believe it has succeeded in bringing the Jews back together again completely. Yes, through us to bring them together.... What would have happened to Jewry if it had displayed that lukewarmness as, say, the Indio in South America? What is the Indian, the Indio once called the whole territory his own---great cultural empires they have had---- through a few Spaniards, later others came in addition, they let themselves be subjugated, let themselves be pushed back-- today they are absolved [HW: [?assimilated?]] in the South American space, live exactly like the Italian, the Spaniard --- in short, they have no significance anymore. The Jew would certainly have been condemned to insignificance, had he not succeeded in having intellectual centers here, especially in the East. Through centuries the Orthodoxy had not preached ghettoization, the voluntary ghettoization at first, a dissolution would already have come about in the earliest times of the Middle Ages. Thus they came together like the Swabians in the Southeastern space at the military[?y?] border, which we [DEL: have formed,] [HW: [?behind?]] since Maria Theresa, [DEL: have in villages] [HW: [?live closed off?]] gathered together and the children still speak today almost still the origi- nal Swabian, as if they had grown up in their homeland.... There the children were pressed into the Talmud[DEL: [illegible]] schools, and got their things taught to them. Were also later separated off toward the West, because the colonies were far too numerous and the children could not be fed, and what did they become(on the basis of their brain training since earliest youth, when our children still played with dolls,))doctors, lawyers and other stuff and if he was a merchant, then certainly not the worst.--- And now through the forced migration toward the West, which again and again

new ones it drew in its wake —that when a Dr. Loewenherz, born in Lemberg, came to Vienna and obtained his doctorate in law here …, and was a senior official of the Jewish religious community here—what other occupation he had I do not know—and later was office director, he certainly had other relatives join him in the course of his career, which certainly lasted 30 years. Others did the same, and insofar as they did not remain in Jewish political work, some of them assimilated. What a dreadful thought for a Jewish political leader. Lost blood, and they did not have that much blood to lose at that time.

Now, after the seizure of power, a calamity threatened them, a calamity such as they knew from the Middle Ages, because war had been declared on them, and now they had to arm themselves against it. So they tried—perhaps the thesis is right that they tried it through the stupid German Michel, who can think thoroughly and comprehensively, but cannot think deeply enough. They tried to buy him and, through a momentary period of suffering, saved their existence, because through that momentary suffering they have the pity of the whole world on their side. And with it all the material advantages. Advantages that the clever spiritual leadership of Orthodoxy has in any case always managed to credit to itself over 2,000 years, by way of Christianity.

Questioner

What do you understand by the term ‘exchange Jews’?

Eichmann

Exchange Jews? The term existed, that I know, and it was coined by the Foreign Office.

Questioner

Yes, where they planned to exchange Jews for Germans. Do you recall anything about that? Was anything planned?

Eichmann

Yes, I can dimly remember something in connection with exchanging children with England for German men fit for military service. But who came up with it—whether it was Reischauer or the RF (Reichsführer-SS)—I can no longer say. But it is certain that something actually existed: giving children in exchange for German men fit for military service, for German blood that was in English hands.

Those were the first exchange plans.

Questioner

But there were not many exchange Jews. But did you know a Miss Slottke?

Open page image and German
Page 633 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 633 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

neue nach ich zog – daß wenn ein Dr. Löwenherz, geboren in Lemberg, wenn der nach Wien kam und hier zum Dr. jur. promob. und hier ein hoher Beamter der isr. Kultusgemeinde war, was er sonst noch für eine Beschäftigung hatte, weiß ich nicht, später Amtsdirektor gewesen ist, der hat sich im Laufe seiner Karriere, die bestimmt 30 Jahre gedauert hat, bestimmt noch irgend andere Verwandtschaftsmitglieder nachkommen lassen. So haben es auch noch andere gemacht und sofern sie nicht bei der jüd. polit Arbeite verblieben haben sie sich zum Teil assim. Welch fürchterlicher Gedanke für einen jüd. polit. Führer. Verlorenes Blut und soviel Blut hatten sie um jene Zeit nicht zu verlieren. – Jetzt drohte ihnen nach der Machtergreifung ein Unheil, ein solches Unheil, wie sie es kannten, aus der Zeit des Mittelalters, denn man hatte ihnen ja den Kampf angesagt und nun galt es sich dagegen zu wappnen und also haben sie es versucht, – vielleicht stimmt die These, daß sie es versucht haben, durch den dummen deutschen Michel, der an sich gründlich und umfassend zu denken vermag, aber nicht tief genug zu denken vermag. Versucht ihn zu kaufen und haben über ein momentanes Leid, ihren Bestand gerettet, indem sie durch das momentane Leid das Mitleid der gesamten Welt auf ihrer Seite haben. und dadurch sämtliche materiellen Vorzüge. Vorteile die sich die schlaue geistige Führung der Orthodoxie sich sowieso schon durch 2 000 Jahre hindurch immer hat abbuchen können über das Christentum. – Was verstehen Sie unter dem Begriff Austauschjuden? Austauschjuden? – der Begriff bestand, das weiß ich, und zwar ist er geprägt worden von ausw. Amt. Ja, wo geplant wurde, Juden auszutauschen gegen Deutsche – Ist Ihnen da irgendetwas erinnerlich, hat man da etwas geplant? Ja, ich kann mich da so dunkel erinnern, in Zusammenhang mit Austausch von Kindern mit England, gegen wehrfähige, deutsche Männer, – aber wer das nun geboren hat… ob das der Reischauer war oder der RF, das kann ich nicht mehr sagen. Aber fest steht, daß tatsächlich etwas bestand, Kinder gegen wehrfähige, deutsche Männer, gegen deutsches Blut, daß sich in englischen Händen befand, dafür zu geben. – Das waren so die ersten Austauschplanungen… Aber es gab ja nicht viel Austauschjuden – aber haben Sie ein Frl. Schlottke gekannt?

Draft translation

16 Volume 60 [HW: 633] new after I drew---that when a Dr. Loewenherz, born in Lemberg, when he came to Vienna and here obtained the doctorate in law [Dr. jur. promob. (promoviert)] and here was a high official of the Isr[aelite] Religious Community, what other kind of occupation he had, I do not know, later was Office Director, he, in the course of his career, which certainly lasted 30 years, certainly had still some other relatives sent for/brought over. Others did it likewise too and insofar as they did not remain in the Jew[ish]-polit[ical] work they in part assimil[ated]. What a dreadful thought for a Jew[ish] polit[ical] leader. Lost blood and so much blood they did not have to lose around that time.-- Now, after the seizure of power, a calamity threatened them, such a calamity as they knew it, from the time of the Middle Ages, for one had after all declared war on them and now it was a matter of arming themselves against it and so they attempted it,--perhaps the thesis is correct, that they attempted it, by means of the dumb German Michel, who as such is capable of thinking thoroughly and comprehensively, but not capable of thinking deeply enough. Attempted to buy him and, over a momentary suffering, saved their existence, in that by means of the momentary suffering they have the pity of the whole world on their side. and thereby all the material advantages. Advantages which the clever spiritual leadership of Orthodoxy has in any case already been able to book/charge off for itself over 2,000 years [DEL: through] [TS INS: over] the Christianity.- What do you understand by the term exchange-Jews [Austauschjuden]? Exchange-Jews?--the term existed, that I know, and indeed it was coined by the Foreign Office. Yes, where it was planned to exchange Jews against Germans-- Is there anything recollectable to you, did one plan something there? Yes, I can so dimly remember that, in connection with the exchange of children with England, against able-bodied, German men, ---- but who now gave birth to it.....whether that was Reischauer or the RF, that I can no longer say. But it is established, that actually something existed, children against able-bodied, German men, against German blood, that was in English hands, to give for that.-- Those were, so, the first exchange plans... But there were not many exchange-Jews-----but did you know a Miss Schlottke?

Questioner

Slottke?

That was Zoepf’s secretary. She compiled a list of 298 Jews born on British soil. They were to go on the list of exchange Jews, but it was then discovered that 96 of them had already been gassed. Those are the only British citizens who were gassed.

British? Where were they born?

Questioner

They had British citizenship and another citizenship as well.

Eichmann

They bought their British citizenship.

Questioner

In any case, they were put on this list as British citizens and were to count as exchange Jews. Do you know nothing about that?

Eichmann

I do not remember it. Zoepf would not have reported it to me at all either, because he deported them himself. [Handwritten note: Against the guidelines!]

Questioner

Then a new list was compiled, with 400 Jews living in Holland. Who also had a claim to British protection.

Eichmann

I know nothing about that either.

Questioner

Now there was to be a large operation to gather Jews who were to be taken as exchange Jews. Do you know nothing about the plan to find 50,000 exchange Jews from the Allied countries, including the Soviet Union?

Eichmann

No, I cannot recall anything. The RF (Reichsführer-SS) may once have taken up the matter personally, but officially I know nothing about it.

Questioner

Kaltenbrunner had even gone so far as to order the head of the Security Police in Russia to select suitable Jews in the ghettos.

Eichmann

No, I know nothing about it. In what year—1943? The Reichsführer-SS will have said that to Kaltenbrunner, and K. (Kaltenbrunner) then wrote to his group chiefs. Those are the things I do not know; they did not go through my section.

Questioner

Do the Honduras Jews and the Paraguay Jews mean anything to you?

Eichmann

Now, the Honduras Jews and the Paraguay Jews mean nothing to me, but I will say the following about it. I know what that means. Those are Jews who, for money, obtained a passport or citizenship from some embassy or legation official, making them nationals of the country whose palm they had just greased with the ….

Open page image and German
Page 634 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 634 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Schlettke? Das war die Sekretärin von Zoepf. – die hat eine Liste erstellt von 298 auf britischem Boden geborenen Juden – die sollten auf die Liste der… Austauschjuden kommen, dabei wurde aber festgestellt daß 96 davon bereits vergast wurden, das sind die einzigen britischen Staatsbürger die vergast wurden. Britisch? Wo wurden sie geboren? Die hatten die britische Staatsbürgerschaft und noch eine andere. Die haben die britische Staatsbürgerschaft gekauft… Sie sind jedenfalls hier auf diese Liste gestellt worden als britische Staatsbürger und sollten als Austauschjuden gelten… Ist Ihnen nichts davon bekannt? Ist mir nicht in Erinnerung, daß hatte mir auch Zoepf gar nicht berichtet, denn er hat sie ja selber deportiert. Dann wurde eine neue Liste erstellt, mit 400 in Holland lebenden Juden. Die auch auf britischem Schutz Anspruch hatten. Ist mir auch nichts bekannt… Nun sollte eine große Sammelaktion von Juden, die als Austauschjuden genommen werden sollten, stattfinden. Ist Ihnen nichts davon bekannt, daß 50 000 Austauschjuden aus den allii Ländern zu der Sowjetunion eingeschlossen, gefunden werden sollten? Nein… ich kann mich an nichts entsinnen – es mag sein daß der RF einmal die Sache persönlich vertreten hat, aber mir ist davon amtlich nichts bekannt Kaltenbrunner war sogar soweit gegangen, dem Leiter der Sipo in Rußland zu befehlen, in den Ghettos passende Juden auszusuchen. Nein, mir ist nichts bekannt, – in welchem Jahr, 1943 – der RF wird das dem Kaltenbrunner gesagt haben und K. hat dann seine Gruppenchefs angeschrieben – das sind die Sachen die ich nicht weiß, die liefen nicht über mein Dezernat… Ist Ihnen ein Begriff die Honduras und die Paraguayjuden? Nun die Honduras und die Paraguayjuden sind mir kein Begriff, aber ich will folgendes dazu sagen, ich weiß was das heißt – das sind Juden die haben von irgendeinen Botschaftsangeh. oder Gesandtschaftsangeh gegen Geld, haben sie einen Reisepaß bekommen oder eine Staatsangeh. bekommen, die sie zum Angehörigen des Landes machten, dem sie gerade die … in die hohle Hand spielten…

Draft translation

Band 60 17 [HW: 638] Schlettke? That was the secretary of Zoepf.--she compiled a list of 298 Jews born on British soil--they were supposed to go on the list of the.. exchange Jews, but in this it was established that 96 of them had already been gassed, those are the only British citizens who were gassed. British? Where were they born? They had British citizenship and yet another one. They bought the British citizenship.... In any case they were placed here on this list as British citizens and were supposed to count as exchange Jews.... Is nothing of this known to you? I don't recall it, that also wasn't reported to me at all by Zoepf, for he himself deported them. [HW: Against the [?return-children?]!!!] Then a new list was compiled, with 400 Jews living in Holland. Who also had a claim to British protection. That too is not known to me... Now a large collective action of Jews, who were supposed to be taken as exchange Jews, was to take place. Is nothing of this known to you, that 30,000 exchange Jews from the alli[ed] countries [?to?] the Soviet Union enclosed, were to be found? No... I can recall nothing--it may be that the RF at one point represented the matter personally, but of that nothing is officially known to me. Kaltenbrunner had even gone so far as to order the head of the Sipo in Russia to select suitable Jews in the ghettos. No, nothing is known to me,---in which year, 1943----the RF will have said that to Kaltenbrunner and K. then wrote to his group chiefs-- those are the things that I don't know, they did not run through my department (Dezernat).... [TS INS: Honduras] Is the [DEL: [?Honduras?]] and the Paraguay Jews a concept to you? Now the Honduras and the Paraguay Jews are no concept to me, but I want to say the following about it, I know what that means--- those are Jews who have from some embassy member or legation member for money, obtained a passport or obtained a citizenship, which made them into a national of the country, into whose [gap] hollow hand they just played...

They knew, of course, that when they referred to such a U. …, they had to be admitted. Only at the end, when the matter came up for me, I first wrote to the Foreign Office about the offices where this was flowing most freely—which countries they were individually I cannot remember—and demanded that these heads of mission be informed that such things would no longer be accepted in future. What reprisals the Foreign Office took against them I no longer know. Besides, in considering these documents they presented, we no longer took the trouble we might otherwise have taken, because to us they counted as stateless people, or as Jews of German, Hungarian or other citizenship. In Hungary the legation counsellor once told me quite plainly: anyone with a document from any country dated from a certain point onward is a Jew of Hungarian citizenship.

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

Himmler then ordered Eichmann to find a special camp for the useful, though not genuine, foreigners.

Eichmann

What? I would surely have to know about such a camp.

[Affidavit—von Thadden.]

Von Thadden—you probably questioned him about the matter.

Questioner

But such a camp did exist.

Eichmann

But not under me.

[unintelligible on the recording]

Questioner

Bergen-Belsen

[?]

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

and 367 Jews with Spanish passports were brought there from Salonika.

Eichmann

Yes, that is right, but I did not have to set up a camp. The RF (Reichsführer-SS) surely told Pohl to do that, and Pohl brought them together in some concentration camp, in this case Bergen-Belsen. But I myself had no such camp; I only had Theresienstadt.

Questioner reads from Reitlinger's book

From the outset, the intentions for Bergen-Belsen were confused and undefined. On 9 November 1943, Ustf. (Untersturmführer) Novak of Eichmann’s office wrote to Zoepf that only the Jews on the exchange list, Jews with relatives in Palestine, and the Honduras and Paraguay Jews were to be used.

Questioner

And your office was involved in the matter, after all.

Eichmann

Well, all right, but the camp never came into being. I had no instruction.

Questioner

But what did Novak have to do with it? He was there for transport, after all.

Open page image and German
Page 635 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 635 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Sie wußten selbstverst… wenn sie so einen U… vorwiesen, sie mußten aufgenommen werden. Nur zum Schluß als mir die Sache aufstand habe ich 1. von diesen Stellen, die am flüssigsten liefen, aber welche Länder das im einzelnen waren, kann ich mich nicht entsinnen, habe das ausw. Amt angeschrieben und habe verlangt, daß diese Missionschefs unterrichtet werden, daß künftig diese Sachen nicht mehr akzeptiert werden, und welche Repressalien das ausw. Amt gegen sie unternommen hat, das weiß ich nicht mehr, – außerdem haben wir uns dann bei Beachtung dieser vorgezeigten Dokumente nicht mehr der Mühe befleißigt, der man sich vielleicht sonst befleißigt hätte, denn sie zählten für uns als Staatenlose, oder als Juden deutscher, ungar. oder sonstiger Staatsangeh. In Ungarn sagte mir einmal der L.R. ganz klipp und klar, wer ein Dokument hat, von irgendeinem Land, ab einem bestimmten Datum, ist Jude ungar. Staatsangeh. Himmler ordnete dann Eichmann an, ein besonderes Lager für die nützlichen, wenn auch nicht echten Ausländer zu finden. Was??? Ein solches Lager müßte ich doch kennen… Effidevit – von Thadden –? Von Thadden, den haben sie wahrscheinlich verhört zur Sache… Aber es bestand ein solches Lager – Aber nicht bei mir… … (unverständlich…) Bergen Belsen… (?) und 367 Juden mit spanischen Pässen wurden aus Saloniki dort hingebracht – – Ja, das ist richtig, aber ich habe kein Lager errichten müssen, das hat der RF sicher dem Pohl gesagt und Pohl hat sie in irgendeinem KL zusammen gefaßt, indem Fall also Bergen Belsen – aber ich selber hatte kein solches Lager, ich hatte nur Theresienstadt. – Von Anbeginn waren die Absichten die man mit Bergen Belsen hatte, verworren und unbestimmt, am 9. Nov. 43 schrieb Ustf. Novak aus Eichmanns Amt an Zoepf, daß nur die Juden die auf der Austauschliste wären, Juden mit Verwandten in Palast, Honduras und Paraguayjuden gebraucht werden sollten – Und es war Ihr Amt doch befaßt mit der Angelegenheit. Nun ja gut, aber es ist nie entstanden das Lager, ich habe keinen Auftrag gehabt… Aber was hat der Novak damit zu tun gehabt? Er war doch für den Transp. da. –

Draft translation

18 Band 60 [HW: 635] You knew of course.. when they referred such a U.. [in]that way, they had to be admitted. Only at the end when the matter came up for me, I 1. of these offices, which ran most fluidly, but which countries these were in detail, I can not re member, wrote to the For[eign] Office and demanded that these mission chiefs be informed that in future these matters would no longer be accepted, and what reprisals the For[eign] Office undertook against th[em], that I no longer know,- -besides, we then, in observing the documents presented by th[em], no longer took the pains that one might otherwise have taken, for they counted for us as stateless persons, or as Jews of German, Hungar[ian] or other citizenship. In Hungary the L.R. once told me quite plainly and clearly, whoever has a document, from any country, from a certain date on, is a Jew of Hungar[ian] citizenship. special Himmler then ordered Eichmann to find a camp for the ad[ditional?], even if not genuine, foreigners. What??? Such a camp I would surely have to know about..... Affidavit- from Thadden -? Von Thadden, him th[ey] probably interrogated on the matter.... But such a camp existed-- But not with me.... .....(unintelligible.....) Bergen Belsen.....(?) and 367 Jews with opt[ional?] passports were brought there from Salonika - -- Yes, that is correct, but I did not have to erect any camp, that the RF surely told Pohl and Pohl assembled them in some KL [concentration camp], in the case then Bergen Belsen--but I myself had no such camp, I had only Theresienstadt.-- From the very beginning the intentions one had with Bergen Belsen were confused and indefinite, on 9 Nov. 43 Ustf. Novak from Eichmann's office wrote to Zoepf that only the Jews who were on the exchange list, Jews with relatives in Palest[ine], Honduras and Paraguay Jews should be used-- And it was your office that was indeed concerned with the matter. Well yes fine, but the camp never came into being, I had no order... But what did Novak have to do with it? He was after all there for the transp[ort].--

Well, if Günther, as his superior, told him to draft a letter because Günther had no time, then Novak simply wrote the letter. Novak was a case officer for a particular subject area, after all. It was not as though a case officer handling a matter from A to Z, or only from A to K, could not also handle a case under Y on his superior’s instructions. Of course he has to work on it when he receives the instruction.

In reality, though, quite different categories came in: the diamond workers, the holders of the German Iron Cross, half-Jews. Yes, so that we could be quite sure, so that they would not be gassed, so that no harm would come to them. I still remember the famous diamond cutters. They had to be kept separate so that nothing would happen to them.

Open page image and German
Page 636 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 636 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Nun ja, wenn Günter als sein Vorgesetzter ihm gesagt hat, einen Brief aufzusetzen, weil Günter keine Zeit hatte, und so hat eben Novak dieses Schreiben gemacht – Novak war ja Sachgebietsbearbeiter – Es war ja nicht so daß der Sachgebietsarbeiter eine Sache behandelte A-Z, oder nur A-K daß er dann nicht einmal auf Anweisung seines Vorgesetzten, einen Fall behandeln konnte mit Y. Selbstverständlich muß er ihn bearbeiten, wenn er die Weisung bekommt. In Wirklichkeit kamen aber dann ganz andere Kategorien herein, die Diamantenbearbeiter, die Träger des deutschen eisernen Kreuzes, Halbjuden, Ja, damit wir ganz sicher gingen, damit sie nicht vergast wurden… damit ihnen kein Leid geschieht… Von den berühmten Diamantenschleifer das weiß ich noch… die mußten abgesondert werden, damit ihnen ja nichts passiert. –

Draft translation

19 Volume 60 [HW: 636] Well now, when Guenter as his superior told him to draft a letter, because Guenter had no time, and so Novak just made this letter---Novak was after all a subject-area case-worker---- t was after all not so that the subject-area worker handled a matter A-Z, or only A-K, that he then could not even, on the instruction of his superior, handle a case with Y. Naturally he must process it, if he receives the directive. In reality, however, then entirely other categories came in, the diamond-workers, the bearers of the German Iron Cross, half-Jews, Yes, so that we went entirely safe, so that they were not gassed......so that no h rm happens to them..... Of the famous diamond-cutters, that I still know....they had to be separated out, so that indeed nothing happens to them.---

Questioner

The fact that in August 1943, from the district of Sosnowitz—it is therefore necessary to establish exactly how far Sosnowitz lies from Auschwitz—that an operation was still carried out in this district of Sosnowitz to gather the Jews still living there and transport them to Auschwitz, is to be used indirectly and skillfully when it comes to making the argument that transport difficulties make the figure given by the enemy side impossible from the outset. And that this would be an example worth mentioning to illustrate the existing difficulties: that even in August 1943, at a relatively short distance from Auschwitz—by my estimate some 15 to 20 kilometers—that … had still not rounded up the Jews from that distance, because it had all been only a question of transport difficulties.

Open page image and German
Page 637 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 637 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Die Tatsache, daß im Aug 1943 aus dem Distrikt Sosnowitz – es ist also genau festzustellen in welchem Abstand Sosnowitz von Auschwitz liegt – daß in diesem Distrikt Sosnowitz noch eine Aktion durchgeführt wurde, um dort noch ansässige Juden zusammeln um nach Auschwitz zu transportieren – ist auf geschickte Art und Weise indirekt zu verwenden, wenn es darauf ankommt die Beweisführung zu stellen daß die Transportschwierigkeiten die von feindlicher Seite angegeben Zahl von vorneherein unmöglich macht – und daß das ein erwähnendes Beispiel wäre, um die bestehenden Schwierigkeiten zu illustrieren, daß man also noch im Aug 43 noch auf relativ kurzem Abstand von Auschwitz – etwa meiner Schätzung nach 15 – 20 Km – daß man die Juden aus dieser Entfernung noch nicht erfaßt hatte, weil das alles nur eine Frage von Transportschwierigkeiten gewesen ist. [handschriftlich: Bitte zu entschuldigen! 1. …iel Affenhitze – (kein Ventilator) 2. Maschinenwalze(?) klemmte – Typen klebten –]

Draft translation

[HW: 637] Special sheet Volume 61 The fact that in Aug 1943 from the District of Sosnowitz--- it can therefore be determined exactly at what distance Sosnowitz lies from Auschwitz---that in this District of Sosnowitz yet another Aktion was carried out, in order to collect there still-resident Jews to be transported to Auschwitz--- is to be used in a clever way indirectly, when it comes to mounting the demonstration/argument that the transport difficulties make the number given by the enemy side impossible from the outset-- and that this would be a worth-mentioning example, to illustrate the existing difficulties, that one therefore still in Aug 43 still at a relatively short distance from Auschwitz--- approximately by my estimate 15 - 20 km---- that one had not yet apprehended the Jews from this distance, because that was all only a question of transport difficulties. [HW: [?Please to supplement/complete?]:] [HW: 1. no [?stifling heat / "monkey heat"?] -] [HW: ([?no?] ventilator/fan)] [HW: 2. [?machine roller / "machine turner"?]] [HW: [?jammed / stuck?]] [HW: [?repairs?] -]

Do you know what that could have been? Hadamar, because it says mentally ill, because it was an institution. That reminds me of the following: what was the name of the head of the Chancellery of the Deputy of the Führer? I mean the SA-Brigadeführer in the Führer’s Chancellery, and he directed the administrative work for the extermination of idiots in homes for idiots. His superior was some Hauptamtsleiter (main-office head) or something similar, and these exterminations were carried out from that office. The RSHA (Reich Security Main Office) had nothing to do with it. They had their doctors in the institutions and also carried out the transfers and so on.

Questioner

The name Greiser, Reichsstatthalter in the Reichsgau Wartheland.

Eichmann

Yes, I know the name. I do not know him personally. He was a senior superior of C…eid, and as far as I know I had no official dealings with him.

Questioner

He writes on 1 May 1942

Questioner reads from Greiser's letter to Himmler

that the operation approved by Heydrich for the special treatment of about 100,000 Jews in this area can be completed within the next two or three months. He asks for permission, after that operation, to use the experienced special detachment to rid the Gau of a danger that takes on more catastrophic forms every week. There are now 230,000 tuberculosis patients of Polish ethnicity in the Gau. The number of Poles being treated for open tuberculosis is estimated at 35,000.

Germans who arrived in the Warthegau in perfect health are becoming infected. German children are particularly at risk of infection. A whole series of prominent men, including men from the police, have recently become infected and are unavailable for wartime service because of the treatment they now need. The dangers, which are in fact constantly growing, have also been recognized by the deputy Reich Health Leader, Prof. Dr. Blo…er, and by the leader of the X-ray battalion, Standartenführer Dr. Prof. Hohlfelder.

Although decisive action with appropriate measures against this plague of the people cannot be taken in the Old Reich, I nevertheless believe I can take responsibility for proposing to you that the cases of open tuberculosis among the Polish population within the Warthegau be eradicated. Naturally, only a Pole whose open tuberculosis and its incurability have both been certified and established by an official medical examiner may be subjected to such an operation. Given the urgency of this undertaking, I request your approval in principle as quickly as possible.

Questioner

[That went to the RF (Reichsführer-SS).]

Eichmann

I have the following to say about that. That was the Reichsgau Wartheland; that was the place, and the town was called something like Kulm. Müller sent me down there, and when I arrived I saw something I had never seen before: these hermetically sealed trucks, into which they put the Jews and killed them with the exhaust gases. That was where I was supposed to look through the peephole. When this business was finished, I remember that Government Councillor Deumling, who headed the Polish affairs section in the RSHA (Reich Security Main Office), was involved in this tuberculosis business concerning the sick Poles. How it turned out I cannot say, and whether

Open page image and German
Page 638 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 638 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Wissen Sie was das gewesen sein kann? Hadamar, weil es heißt Geisteskranke weil es eine Anstalt gewesen ist – da entsinne ich mich folgendes, wie hat der Chef der Kanzlei des Stellvertreters des Führers geheißen? Ich meinen SA Brigadef. der Kanzlei des Führers und dieser hat die administrativ… Arbeiten geführt zur Vernichtung von Idioten in Idiotenheimen. Sein Vorgesetzter war irgendein Hauptamtsleiter oder so etwas ähnliches, – und von dieser Stelle aus wurden diese Vernichtungen durchgeführt. Damit hatte das RSHA nichts zu tun. – Die haben ihre Ärzte gehabt in den Anstalten und haben auch die Verlagerungen vorgenommen usw. – Der Name Greiser, Reichsstatthalter im Reichsgau Wartheland. – Ja, ist mir bekannt. Ich kenne ihn nicht persönlich, es ist hohe Vorgesetzte von C[unleserlich]eid gewesen – und nicht das ich wüßte hatte ich dienstlich mit ihm zu tun. Der schreibt; Am 1. Mai 42, daß die von Heydrich genehmigte Aktion der Sonderbehandlung von rund 100 000 Juden in diesem Gebiet in den nächsten 2 od 3 Monate abgeschlossen werden kann. Er bittet um die Genehmigung mit dem eingearbeitenden Sonderkommando in Anschluß an die Aktion den Gau von einer Gefahr befreien zu dürfen, die mit jeder Woche katastrophalere Formen annimmt. Es befinden sich im Gau bis jetzt 230 000 TBC Kranke poln. Volkszugehörigk. Die Zahl der mit offener TBC behandelte Polen wird auf 35 000 geschätzt. Deutsche die vollkommen gesund in den Warthegau gekommen sind, werden angesteckt. Besonders besteht die Ansteckungsgefahr bei den deutschen Kindern. Eine ganze Reihe namhafter Männer auch aus der Polizei sind in der letzten Zeit angesteckt worden, und fallen durch die notwendig gewordenen Behandlung für den Kriegseinsatz aus. Die effektiv immer größerwerdenden Gefahrenmomente sind auch vom Stellvertr. des Reichsgesundheitsführers Prof. Dr. Blomer, sowie auch vom Führer des Röntgensturmbann Standartenf. Dr. Prof. Hohlfelder erkannt worden. Wenngleich auch im Altreic… mit entsprechenden Maßnahmen gegenüber dieser Volkspest nicht durchgegriffen werden kann, glaube ich es doch verantworten zu können, Ihnen vorschlagen zu können innerhalb des Warthegaus die Fälle der offenen TBC des poln. Volkstums ausmerzen zu lassen. Selbstverst. dürfte nur derjenige Pole einer solchen Aktion unterstellt werden, bei dem amtsärztlich nicht nur die offene TBC, sondern auch deren Unheilbarkeit bescheinigt und festgestellt worden ist. – Bei der Dringlichkeit dieses Vorhabens bitte ich möglichst schnell um ihre grundsätzliche Genehmigung… (Das ging an den RF…) Dazu habe ich folgendes zu sagen; Das war der Reichsgau Wartheland, das war die Stelle und zwar der Ort hieß so ähnlich wie Kulm – da wurde ich runtergeschickt von Müller und als ich dort hin kam, da sah ich etwas, was ich bisher noch nicht gesehen hatte, und zwar diese hermitisch abgeschlossenen Lastwagen. wo sie die Juden hineintaten und durch die Auspuffgase töteten, das war dort wo ich durch das Guckloch sehen sollte – Als diese Sache abgeschlossen war, da entsinne ich mich, daß Reg Rat Däumling der das Polenreferat leitete im RSHA, daß der befaßt war mit dieser TBG Geschich… der kranken Polen. Wie das nun ausgegangen ist, das kann ich nicht sagen und ob

Draft translation

Band 61 [HW: 638] Do you know what that could have been? Hadamar, because it says mentally ill, because it was an institution----- there I remember the following, what was the name of the Chief of the Chancellery of the Deputy of the Führer? I mean SA Brigade Leader of the Chancellery of the Führer and this one led the administrative work for the killing of idiots in idiot-homes. His superior was some Main Office Leader or something similar, --- and from this office these exterminations were carried out. The RSHA had nothing to do with that.--They had their doctors in the institutions and also carried out the relocations etc.-- The name Greiser, Reich Governor in the Reichsgau Wartheland.-- Yes, is known to me. I do not know him personally, he was a high superior of [?Cmeid?] --- and not that I would know did I have official dealings with him. He writes; On 1 May 42, that the action approved by Heydrich of the special treatment of about 100,000 Jews in this area can be completed in the next 2 or 3 months. He requests the approval to be permitted, with the trained-in special commando in connection with the action, to free the Gau from a danger that takes on more catastrophic forms with every week. There are in the Gau up to now 230,000 TBC-sick persons of Polish nationality. The number of Poles treated with open TBC is estimated at 35,000. Germans who came into the Warthegau completely healthy are being infected. The danger of infection exists especially with the German children. A whole series of notable men also from the police have in recent time been infected, and drop out for the war effort due to the treatment that has become necessary. The effectively ever-growing danger moments have also been recognized by the Deputy of the Reich Health Führer Prof. Dr. Blomer, as well as by the Führer of the Röntgen-Sturmbann Standarten-Leader Dr. Prof. Hohlfelder. Even though also [mkkxx] in the Altreich the corresponding measures against this national plague cannot be pushed through, I nevertheless believe I can take responsibility to propose to you to have the cases of open TBC of the Polish nationality eliminated within the Warthegau. Of course only that Pole may be subjected to such an action for whom officially-medically not only the open TBC, but also its incurability has been certified and established.----- Given the urgency of this undertaking I request as quickly as possible your fundamental approval....... (That went to the RF...) To that I have the following to say; That was the Reichsgau Wartheland, that was the place and indeed the town was called something similar to Kulm--- there I was sent down by Müller and when I got there, I saw something I had not seen before until then, namely these hermetically sealed trucks. where they put the Jews in and killed them through the exhaust gases, that was there where I was supposed to look through the peephole----- When this matter was concluded, I remember that Government Councillor Däumling who led the [?Polkmreferat?] in the RSHA, that he was concerned with this TBG business of the sick Poles. How this then came out, that I cannot say and whether

it was then approved and carried out. I was not responsible for that, nor for the treatment of the Jews in the Warthegau. That was an order from above. The trucks were built for it in Berlin, but I knew nothing about it in the RSHA (Reich Security Main Office). We were told nothing about it. I only saw them down there, when they were in use. Müller had known about it much earlier, but I was not involved. I know nothing further about the other matter, only that it had come up.

But you can see from the letter that it is another clear confirmation of what I have said so often. People always think the section must have come onto the scene first, on its own initiative and as the originating cause. I can only say that it was not like that. Some Reichsleiter and Führer met at shared meals, discussions, official meetings, presentations, and on official trips—wherever these people came together—and these matters were settled directly among the gentlemen. This letter is another example of how these things were settled between themselves, and how the RF (Reichsführer-SS) either ordered something or decided against it.

Then the man who had asked about it ordered everything in his own area of responsibility as he pleased and used whatever he had available there and considered expedient for the purpose. The section in the RSHA was simply bypassed; at most, it was presented with an accomplished fact that they could no longer change. They could only say to themselves: well, that violates this decree or that regulation again; well, another order has been given, so now we simply have to incorporate it that way. That is what I have said so often: this muddle, which we in the RSHA could only make sense of at all when we could find something in writing to go on in the files.

Questioner

Now here is something from the VWHA (SS Economic and Administrative Main Office),

Questioner reads from an SS camp administration report

Office D II, dated 9 March 1943—Oranienburg—transportation away of Jewish armaments workers. On 5 and 7 March the following transports of Jewish prisoners arrived. Transport from Berlin, arrival 5 March: 1,129 Jews. Assigned to labor: 329 men and 96 women. Special treatment: 151 men and 592 women and children. Transport from Breslau, 5 March: 1,405 Jews. Assigned to labor: 406 men and 190 women. Special treatment: 125 men and 6[?]4 women and children. Transport from Berlin, 7 March: 690, including 25 protective-custody prisoners. Assigned to labor: 153 men, 25 protective-custody prisoners, 65 women. Special treatment: 30 men, 417 women and children.

Questioner

Do you know that special treatments were also carried out in Oranienburg?

Eichmann

Yes, this is the first I have heard of it. Possible? Well, that was probably possible in every concentration camp. There were no gas chambers in Oranienburg, but perhaps they shot them; I do not know. I do not know my way around the VWHA. There is no paperwork, no reference, nothing at all. It is possible that Office Group D had its headquarters in Oranienburg in 1943, because Grf. (Gruppenführer) Glücks, the inspector for the concentration camp system, had his office in the Oranienburg concentration camp. He was not in Berlin, ‘Unter den Eichen’; he was in Oranienburg. Nor must we necessarily assume that these transports came to Oranienburg. It may well be that Office Group D had its headquarters there.

Open page image and German
Page 639 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 639 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

das nur genehmigt wurde und gemacht wurde… Ich war ja dafür nicht zuständig gewesen, auch nicht für die Behandlung der Juden im Warthegau, das war ein Befehl der von oben kam, die Wagen sind in Berlin dafür gemacht worden, – aber davon hatte ich keine Ahnung gehabt im RSHA. – davon hat man uns nichts gesagt, erst unten habe ich sie gesehen als sie im Einsatz waren. – Müller hat es schon viel früher gewußt, aber ich wurde nicht damit befaßt. – Und von der anderen Sache ist mir nichts weiter bekannt, nur eben daß sie vorgelegen hat. – Aber Sie sehen aus dem Brief, daß dieser wieder eine deutliche Bestätigung ist dafür, was ich schon sooft gesagt habe. Man glaubt immer das Dezernat muß immer initiativ anfänglich und ursächlich auf den Plan getreten sein, und ich sage nur so war es nicht, da haben sich irgendwelche Reichsleiter und Führer getroffen bei gemeinsamen Essen, Besprechung, Dienstbesprechungen, bei Vorträgen, bei Dienstreisen wo diese Leute zusammen kamen, da wurden diesen Sachen unter den Herrn direkt ausgemacht. Auch dieses Schreiben ist ein solches Beispiel, wie diese Sachen enternous ausgemacht wurden, und wie der RF entweder etwas befohlen hat oder ablehnend entschieden hat, und wie dann dieser Mann der darum anfrug, nun in seinem Zuständigkeitsbereich alles selbstherrlich anordnete und alles was er in seinem Zuständigkeitsbereich verfügbar hatte und er es für opportun hält, dafür ansetzte. – Das Dezernat des RSHA wurde einfach übergangen, und wurde wenn es hoch kam, nur vor eine vollendete Tatsache gestellt, wo sie nichts mehr ändern konnten, wo sie sich nur sagen konnten, na ja, das verstößt mal wieder gegen diesen Erlaß oder gegen diese Verordnung, nun ja, es ist wieder ein neuer Befehl gegeben, nun müssen wir es eben so einbauen… Das ist das was ich schon sooft sagte, dieser Kuddelmuddel, wo wir im RSHA überhaupt nur erkennen konnten, wenn wir eine schriftliche Handhabe in den Akten aufzufinden hatten. – Jetzt hier etwas vom VWHA Amt D II; Vom 9 März 43 – Oranienburg-Abtransport von jüd. Rüstungsarbeitern. Am 5 und 7 März trafen folgende jüd Häftlingstransporte ein; Transport aus Berlin, Eingang 5 März, 1129 Juden, zum Arbeitseinsatz gelangten 329 Männer und 96 Frauen. Sonderbehandlung 151 Männer und 592 Frauen und Kinder. – Transport aus Breslau, 5 März – 14 05 Juden – Arbeitseinsatz 406 Männer und 190 Frauen, – Sonderbehandlung 125 Männer und 6…4 Frauen und Kinder. – Transport aus Berlin, – 7 März – 690 einschließl. 25 Schutzhäftlinge – Arbeitseinsatz 153 Männer, 25 Schutzhäftlinge, 65 Frauen – Sonderbehandlung 30 Männer 417 Frauen und Kinder. – Ist Ihnen bekannt, daß in Oranienburg auch Sonderbehandlungen durchgeführt wurden? Ja, ich höre es jetzt zum ersten Mal, – möglich?? – nun das war wohl in jedem KL möglich gewesen. Es gab in Oranienburg keine Gaskammern, aber vielleicht haben sie sie erschossen, ich weiß es nicht. – Ich kenne mich im VWHA nicht aus, es ist kein Aktenkram, es ist kein Bezug da, gar nichts, es wäre ja möglich, daß 43 die Amtsgruppe D ihren Dienstsitz in Oranienburg gehabt hat, denn der Grf. Glücks, der Inspekt für das KL Wesen, saß mit seiner Dienststelle im KL. Oranienburg. Er war nicht in Berlin "unter den Eichen" – der war in Oranienburg. Man muß auch nicht unbedingt annehmen, daß diese Transporte nach Oranienburg kamen. Es kann gut möglich sein, daß die Amtsgruppe D ihren Sitz dort hatte –

Draft translation

2 Volume 61 [HW: 639] that this was only approved and done.....I was not responsible for it, nor for the treatment of the Jews in the Warthegau, that was an order that came from xxxxx above, the vans were made for it in Berlin,--but I had no idea about that in the RSHA.--we were told nothing of it, only down there did I see them when they were in use.-----Mueller knew about it much earlier, but I was not concerned with it.--- And of the other matter nothing further is known to me, only just that it existed.--- But you see from the letter that this is again a clear confirmation of what I have already said so often. One always believes the section [Dezernat] must always have stepped onto the scene initiatively at the beginning and causally, and I only say it was not so, some Reichsleiter and Führer met at joint meals, discussions, official meetings, at lectures, on official trips where these people came together, there these matters were [HW: among] arranged directly with the gentlemen. This letter too is such an example of how these things were arranged entre nous, and how the RF either ordered something or decided in the negative, and how then this man who inquired about it now, in his area of responsibility, ordered everything high-handedly and set to it everything that he had available in his area of responsibility and that he holds to be opportune.- The section [Dezernat] of the RSHA was simply bypassed, and was, if it came up at all, only placed before an accomplished fact, where they could change nothing more, where they could only say to themselves, well, this violates once again against this decree or against this ordinance, well then, a new order has been given again, now we just have to build it in that way..... That is what I said so often, this muddle [Kuddelmuddel], where we in the RSHA could only recognize anything at all if we had a written handle to find in the files.-- Now here something from the VWHA Amt D II; from 9 March 43- Oranienburg-transport-away of Jewish armaments workers. On 5 and 7 March the following Jewish prisoner transports arrived; Transport from Berlin, arrival 5 March, 1128 Jews, 329 men and 96 women were put to labor deployment. Special treatment 151 men and 592 women and children.- Transport from Breslau, 5 March-14 05 Jews-- labor deployment 406 men and 190 women, -Special treatment 125 men and 634 women and children.- Transport from Berlin, - 7 March- - 690 including 25 protective-custody prisoners--labor deployment 153 men, 25 protective-custody prisoners, 65 women---Special treatment 30 men 417 women and children.-- Is it known to you that special treatments were also carried out in Oranienburg? Yes, I am hearing it now for the first time, -- possible?? -- well that was probably possible in every concentration camp. There were no gas chambers in Oranienburg, but perhaps they shot them, I do not know.-- I am not familiar with the VWHA, it is not paperwork [of mine], there is no connection, nothing at all, it would indeed be possible that in 43 the Office Group D had its official seat in Oranienburg, for Gruppenführer Gluecks, the inspector for the concentration camp system, sat with his office in the concentration camp Oranienburg. He was not in Berlin "unter den Eichen"--- he was in Oranienburg. One also need not necessarily assume that these transports came to Oranienburg. It may well be possible that Office Group D had its seat there----

For this is the first I have heard of special treatments in Oranienburh. Perhaps the transports went somewhere else. Possible.

Questioner

And the transports still carried out in 1943—were those still handled by your section?

Eichmann

Yes, certainly, if they came from the Reich, of course. Transports were still running at that time. We still had Jews in Berlin in 1944, but they were no longer transported away.

Questioner

When was the last group taken out of the Reich?

Eichmann

I do not know whether many were still transported away in 1944. I was no longer in Berlin then. It dragged on throughout the whole period. But here again is proof—not the way the Jews so prettily write that they were driven to Auschwits and gassed. Here you can see again how they were sifted out. Half always remained alive.

Questioner

No, no, we have calculated that the intake capacity was somewhere around 250,000 …—but if two million arrived there in all—

Eichmann

That is what I dispute.

Questioner

Or was it … million, or only one million? And if the capacity was only 250,000 or 300,000, does that not mean that the others—

Eichmann

Yes, but how do you know they remained in Auschwits? Office Group D, the Inspectorate for the concentration camp system, distributed the able-bodied workers among the concentration camps. It is quite possible that a transport arriving at Auschwits was taken out again. That came under the VWHA (SS Economic and Administrative Main Office).

Questioner

And these transport trains from concentration camp to concentration camp—were those your responsibility too?

Eichmann

No, that was the responsibility of the VWHA. They had to see to that. They also had to deal with supply trains and so on.

Questioner

Here is a report from SS-Grf. (Gruppenführer) and Lieutenant General of Police Katzmann.

Questioner reads from Katzmann's report

With effect from 23 June 1943, all Jewish residential districts could be dissolved. The district of Galicia is therefore free of Jews, apart from the Jews in … under the control of the SS and Police Leader. Jews still apprehended individually are given special treatment by the Order Police or the gendarmerie deployed there. By 27 June 1943, a total of 434,329 Jews had been resettled.

Questioner

Does that mean finished off?

Eichmann

He drove them to Globocnik, because in the General Government there was only one SS and Police Leader, and that was Globocnik. They had their own timetable [typed insertion, overlapping lines: from the entire … / into the Government to] Globocnik’s camps. This is not to be counted separately; it belongs to Globocnik’s total. Resettled means away, off, to the places of the SS and Police Leader. In Katzmann’s case it does not mean killed; it really means resettled. Otherwise he would also have written that they were given special treatment. They were resettled out of his district. It is very easy now for the opponents to add this sum of half a million to what Globocnik says. In truth this—

Open page image and German
Page 640 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 640 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Denn von Sonderbehandlungen in Oranienburg höre ich zum ersten Mal. Vielleicht die Transporte wo anders hingegangen, möglich… Und die Transporte, die 43 noch durchgeführt wurden, wurden die noch von Ihrem Dezernat gemacht? Ja, sicherlich, wenn sie aus dem Reichsgebiet kamen, selbstverst. Es liefen um die Zeit noch Transporte – wir haben auch noch 44 in Berlin Juden gehabt, aber sie wurden dann nicht mehr abtransportiert. – Wann wurde so das Letzte aus dem Reichsgebiet abgeführt? Ich weiß nicht ob noch viele 44 abtransportiert wurden, ich war ja damals nicht mehr in Berlin – es zog sich ja über die ganze Zeit hinweg. – Aber das hier ist mal wieder ein Beweis – nicht wie die Juden so schön schreiben sie wurden nach Auschwits gefahren und vergast – hier sieht man mal wieder wie ausgesiebt wurde, die Hälfte blieb immer am Leben. No, no, wir haben ausgerechnet daß die Aufnahmecapazität rund sich um die 250 000 (… – wenn aber da im ganzen 2 Mill angekommen sind – Das bestreite ich ja… Oder war …t Mill oder nur 1 Mill… und wenn die Capazität nur 250 000 oder 300 000 war, was besagt dann doch daß die anderen… Ja, aber wo weißt denn, daß die in Auschwits verblieben sind? Die arbeitsfähigen Kräfte hat die Amtsgruppe D, Inspekt. für das KL Wesen, innerhalb der KL verteilt. Es ja schon gut möglich, daß ein Transport der nach Auschwits kam, dort wieder rausgezogen wurde, das unterstand ja dem VW HA. – Habe für diese Transportzüge von KL zu KL hatten Sie das auch zur Aufgabe? Nein, das war die Aufgabe dann vom VWHA, die mußten dafür sorgen – sie mußten sich ja auch um Verpflegungszüge kümmern etc. – Hier ein Bericht von dem SS Grf. und Generallt der Polizei Katzmann; Mit Wirkung von 23 Juni 43 sämtl Judenwohnbezirke aufgelöst werden konnten Der Distrikt Galizien ist somit, bis auf die Juden die sich unter der Kontrolle der SS in… und Pol. Führer befinden, judenfrei. – Die noch einzel aufgegriffenen Juden werden von der Ordnungpolizei oder eingesetzten Gend. sonder behandelt. Bis zum 27 Juni 43 waren insgesamt 434 329 Juden ausgesiedelt. – Heißt das erledigt? Der hat sie zu Globocnizz gefahren, denn im Gen Gov gab es nur einen SS und Pol und das war Globocnizz. – Die haben ja ihren eigenen Fahrplan gehabt aus dem gesamten in den Gen Gov nach den Lagern des Globocnizz. Dieses hier ist nicht extra zu berechnen, das geht zu Globocnizz. – Ausgesiedelt heißt, weg, ab, in die Orte vom SS und Pol. Führer In dem Fall für Katzmann heißt es nicht getötet, heißt es wirklich ausgesiedelt Sonst hätte er auch geschrieben, wurden sonderbehandelt. – Diese wurden aus seinem Distrikt ausgesiedelt. Es ist natürlich jetzt sehr leicht, daß der Gegner diese Summe von einer 1/2 Mill dazu schlägt was Globocnizz sagt, in Wahrheit ist diese

Draft translation

3 Volume 61 [HW: 640] For of special treatments in Oranienburh [sic] I am hearing for the first time. Perhaps the transports went somewhere else, possible............ And the transports that were still carried out in [19]43, were those still done by your department? Yes, certainly, if they came from the Reich territory, of course. Around that time transports were still running---- we also still had Jews living in Berlin in [19]44, but they were then not transported away any more.- When was, then, the last one transported out of the Reich territory? I do not know whether many were still transported away in [19]44, I was no longer in Berlin at that time-- it dragged on across the whole time.-- But this here is once again a proof-- not the way the Jews so nicely write, they were driven to Auschwitz and gassed------here one sees once again how it was sieved out, half always stayed alive. No, no, we have calculated that the intake capacity was around some 250 000 (...--but if there in total 2 mill. arrived-- That I do dispute....... Or was ..t mill. or only 1 mill.....and if the capacity was only 250 000 or 300 000, does that not then say that the others.... Yes, but where does one know [how do you know] that they remained in Auschwitz? The able-bodied labour forces were distributed by Office Group D, Inspect[orate] for the KL [concentration camp] system, within the KL. It is indeed quite possible that a transport that came to Auschwitz was pulled out again there, that came under the VW HA.----- Had [sic] for these transport trains from KL to KL, did you also have that as a task? No, that was then the task of the VWHA, they had to take care of that--- they also had to concern themselves with provisioning trains kxx etc.----- Here a report from the SS Grf. [Gruppenführer] and Lieutenant General of the Police Katzmann; With effect from 23 June 43 all Jewish residential districts could be dissolved. The District of Galicia is thereby, apart from the Jews who are under the control of the SS in[?] [?and Pol. Leader?], free of Jews.--- The still individually apprehended Jews are given special treatment by the Order Police or the deployed Gend[armerie]. By 27 June 43 a total of 434 329 Jews had been resettled.-- Does that mean finished off? He drove them to Globocnizz [Globocnik], for in the Gen[eral] Gov[ernment] there was only one SS and Pol[ice] and that was Globocnizz.- They indeed had their own timetable [TS INS: out of the Gen Gov / into the Gen Gov to] the camps of Globocnizz. This here is not to be counted separately, that goes to Globocnizz.- Resettled means, away, off, to the places of the SS and Pol. Leader. In the case for Katzmann it does not mean killed, it means really resettled. Otherwise he would also have written, were given special treatment.-- These were resettled out of his district. It is of course now very easy for that Wegener to add this sum of a 1/2 mill. to what Globocnizz says, in truth this is

Questioner

[two typed lines not translated: …]

Here is a report from the district chief Ka…, and he discusses the resettlement of the Jews from Ri… to So…, district of Lublin.

Questioner reads from a district chief's report

I hereby inform—

Questioner

[rapid reading aloud]

Yes, everything went there to Globocrizz.

Questioner

And then it says of the extermination camp So… that 250,000 Jews were gassed there.

Eichmann

I do not know about that. That is a matter for Globocrizz’s account.

Questioner

Then here is something from Litzmannstadt:

Questioner reads from a Litzmannstadt ghetto administration letter

personnel office, in-house—hazard allowance for those deployed in the special operations.

Questioner

[reading the letter aloud]

When he says here ‘special operation’, people of the ghetto administration deployed in Litzmannstadt in 1942, does that mean finishing off?

Eichmann

No.

Questioner

But what does ‘special operation’ mean?

Eichmann

That officials were taken out of Litzmannstadt’s municipal administration and had a special assignment to carry out within their city administration, inside the Litzmannstadt ghetto.

Questioner

Why a hazard allowance, then?

Eichmann

Because they are in the ghetto, after all, and might be beaten to death by some Jew who has run wild. Besides, they had cases of typhus there. This man Bi… had been head of the city administration, the municipal authority of Litzmannstadt. The ghetto was right in the middle of the city; it was separated off only by walls. The mayor of Litzmannstadt was also jointly responsible for everything that happened in the ghetto, for the sake of the rest of his population: that no epidemics got out, that no epidemics arose at all, the whole sanitary side and so on. The municipal tram lines ran through the ghetto.

Questioner

Ido (Inspector of the Order Police) in Silesia?

Eichmann

Inspector of the Order Police.

[indistinct conversation]

[Sosnowitz]

Sosnowitz was Reich territory. They combed through it, loaded them up and took them away. They drove them to Auschwits. Even if it was 1943, we still had transports running continuously. It did not all happen overnight, in one stroke, as the layman imagines it and as the spiteful enemy side may write it. But it is not true. In wartime, a thing like that depends on so many factors—the disputes within our own ranks alone. Seeing all of it clearly was almost impossible, but a certain line still had to be drawn. The struggle for transport trains alone—my Hstf. (Hauptsturmführer) had, year in, year out—

Open page image and German
Page 641 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 641 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Das ist hier ein Bericht von dem Kreishauptmann Ka… und der spricht über die Umsiedlung der Juden aus Ri… nach So… Distrikt Lublin Ich teile hiermit… (schnelles Vorlesen… Ja, da ging alles hin zum Globocrizz… Und dann wird von dem Vernichtungslager So gesagt, daß da 250 000 Juden vergast worden sind Das weiß ich nicht, daß ist eine Sache zu Globocrizz Rechnung. – Dann hier eine Sache von Litzmannstadt; Personalstelle in Haus- Gefahrenzulage für die bei den Sonderaktionen Eingesetzten. – (Verlesen des Schreiens… Wenn der hier nun sagt Sonderaktion eingesetzte Leute der Ghettoverwaltung, Litzmannstadt 42, ist das Erledigung? Nein – Aber was heißt Sonderaktion? Daß Beamte aus dem städtischen Verwaltungskörper Litzmannstadt sind nun herausgezogen worden und haben einen Sonderauftrag innerhalb ihrer Stadtverwaltung, innerhalb des Ghettos Litzmannstadt durchzuführen gehabt – Wieso denn Gefahrenzulage Weil sie doch im Ghetto sind und sie vielleicht von irgendeinem wildgewordenen Juden totgeschlagen werden können, außerdem haben sie ja auch Fleckfieberfälle dort gehabt. – [unleserlich] Dieser Mann Bi… war der Chef der Stadtverwaltung, des Magistrates von Litzmannstadt gewesen. – Das Ghetto lag ja mitten in der Stadt, es war nur durch Mauern abgetrennt und der Bürgermeister von Litzmannstadt war ja auch für alles Geschehen im Ghetto mit verantwortlich, für seine übrige Bevölkerung daß keine Seuchen raus kamen, daß überhaupt keine Seuchen auftraten, das ganze Hygienische usw… die städtischen Straßenbahnlinien sind durchs Ghetto gefahren… Ido in Schlesien? Inspekteur der Ordnungspolizei. – (Unterhaltung undeutlich… Sosnowitz Sosnowitz – war Reichsgebiet, dort haben sie durchgekämmt, verladen und weggefahren die haben sie nach Auschwits gefahren, – wenn es auch 43 war, wir haben noch dauer Transporte gehabt, das ging nicht alles so von heute auf morgen schlagartig wie der Laie sich das so vorstellt und auch die gehässige Feindseite es schreiben mag, aber es ist nicht wahr, so eine Sache ist in Kriegszeiten von soviel Faktoren abhängig, der Streit allein schon in den eigenen Reihen, dies alles klar zu sehen ist fast unmöglich gewesen, aber man mußte doch eine gewisse Linie ziehen, – allein schon der Kampf um die Transportzüge, mein Hstf hatte Jahr aus, Jahr ein

Draft translation

[HW: 641] [illegible] [illegible] This here is a report from the Kreishauptmann [district captain] Ka....... and he speaks about the resettlement of the Jews from Ri.. to So ..... District Lublin I herewith inform........ (rapid reading aloud.... Yes, everything went there to Globocrizz [Globocnik?].... And then it is said of the extermination camp So that 250,000 Jews were gassed there That I do not know, that is a matter for Globocrizz's [Globocnik's?] account.---- Then here a matter concerning Litzmannstadt; personnel office in-house — hazard allowance for those deployed in the special operations.---- (Reading aloud of the writing [letter].... When he here now says special operation [DEL: [illegible]] deployed people of the ghetto administration, Litzmannstadt 42, is that settled/completed? No---- But what does special operation mean? That officials from the municipal administrative body of Litzmannstadt were now drawn out and had a special assignment to carry out within their city administration, within the ghetto of Litzmannstadt-- Why then a hazard allowance Because they are indeed in the ghetto and they can perhaps be beaten to death by some Jew who has run wild, besides they did also have cases of spotted fever [typhus] there.---- [illegible] This man Bi........ had been the head of the city administration, of the magistracy of Litzmannstadt.- The ghetto lay right in the middle of the city, it was only separated off by walls and the mayor of Litzmannstadt was indeed also co-responsible for everything that happened in the ghetto, for his remaining population that no epidemics came out, that no epidemics arose at all, the whole hygienic [matter] etc...... the municipal tramway lines ran through the ghetto... Ido [IdO?] in Silesia? Inspector of the Ordnungspolizei [Order Police].-- (Conversation indistinct...... Sosnowitz Sosnowitz--was Reich territory, there they combed through, loaded up and carried away, they drove them to Auschwitz, ---- even if it was [19]43, we still had continuous transports, it did not all happen so suddenly overnight as the layman imagines it and as the malicious enemy side may write it, but it is not true, such a thing in wartime is dependent on so many factors, the strife alone within one's own ranks, to see all this clearly was almost impossible, but one had to draw a certain line,-- the struggle over the transport trains alone, my Hstf [Hauptsturmführer] had, year in, year out

Questioner

Here we have a report from Field Marshal von Reichenau, 10 October 1941. It states that

the most essential aim of the campaign against the Jewish-Bolshevik system is the complete destruction of its instruments of power and the eradication of Asiatic influence in the European cultural sphere. The German soldier in the eastern territories is not only a fighter according to the rules of the art of war, but also the bearer of an inexorable racial-national idea and the avenger of all the bestialities inflicted on the German and kindred peoples. The soldier must therefore fully understand the necessity of harsh but just retribution against Jewish subhumanity.

Questioner

A report from Field Marshal von Manstein, dated 20 November 1941.

Jewry forms the intermediary between the enemy in the rear and the still-fighting remnants of the Red armed forces and the Red leadership. More strongly than in Europe, it occupies all the key positions of political leadership and administration, trade and the crafts, and continues to form the cell for all unrest and possible uprisings. The Jewish-Bolshevik system must be exterminated once and for all. Never again may it intrude into our European living space.

Questioner

These two reports also confirm their agreement with the measures, although that does not mean they agreed with the gassings.

Well, not everyone was gassed, either.

[Picture, page 209, from Dachau.]

Questioner

Which was the extermination camp west of the Iron Curtain? Bergen-Belsen?

Eichmann

No. Killing took place in every concentration camp. Someone who was sent to a concentration camp and then died there, died normally, was of course regarded as a victim of the concentration camp system. And when you reckon that the camps west of the Iron Curtain lasted 12 years, porlo me…, a good many people die off in that time, quite naturally too. That also accounts for the high death toll at Bergen-Belsen, but it was not an extermination camp for that reason. The only one I know of, as the westernmost, is Auschwitz. And then that sort of flying detachment—because I cannot think of another expression, and we in the section had nothing to do with it either—that was in the Warthegau, which lay farther west than Auschwitz. And then the things involving Globocrizz in the General Government. I have never heard of anything else.

This matter here in Dachau, I do not know. But it has been said that they loaded up the bombing victims somewhere. The Oranienburg concentration camp also had a great many bombing raids, and a great many prisoners were killed there too. They also made the film ‘Death Mills (Todesmühlen)’—the Allied governments—which every German soldier they could round up had to watch, so that he would then say to himself: our Führer committed such bestialities—what a criminal government. Later it turned out, so North American senators say, that here they—

total is already included in the Globocrizz total—that much I can say about it from …

Open page image and German
Page 642 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 642 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Hier haben wir einen Bericht vom Generalfeldmarschall von Reichenau, 10 Okt 41; Wobei festgestellt worden ist, daß das wesentlichste Ziel des Feldzuges gegen das jüd. Bolschw. System ist, die völlige Zerschlagung der Machtmittel und die Ausrottung des asiatischen Einflusses in europäischen Kulturkreis. Der deutsche Soldat im Ostraum ist nicht nur ein Kämpfer nach den Regeln der Kriegskunst sondern auch Träger einer unerbittlich völkischen Idee und der Rächer für alle Bestialitäten die deutschem und artverwandten Volkstum zugefügt worden sind. Deshalb muß der Soldat für die Notwendigkeit der harten aber gerechten Sühne am jüd. Untermenschentum volles Verständnis haben. Ein Bericht vom Generalfeldmarschall von Manstein, von 20. Nov 41; Das Judentum bildet den Mittelsmann zwischen dem Feind im Rücken und den noch kämp… den Resten der roten Wehrmacht und der roten Führung. Er hält stärker als in Eur… alle Schlüsselpunkte der politischen Führung und Verwaltung des Handels und des Handwerks besetzt und bildet weiter die Zelle für alle Unruhen und möglichen Erhebungen. Das jüd-bolschw. System muß ein für allemal ausgerottet werden. Nie wieder darf es in unseren europäischen Lebensraum eingreifen. Diese beiden Berichte bestätigen ja nun auch ihr Einverständnis zu den Maßnahmen obwohl damit nicht gesagt ist, daß sie mit den Vergasungen einverstanden waren. – Nun es ist ja auch nicht alles vergast worden. Ein Bild S. 209 aus Dachau – Welches war da westlich vom eisernen Vorhang gelegene Vernichtungslager? Bergen-Belsen? Nein – getötet worden ist in jedem KL und wer ins KL eingelief… worden ist und dort nun nuchstirbt, normal stirbt, der wurde natürlich als ein Opfer des KL System betrachtet und wenn sie rechnen die KL westl. des eisenen Vorhangs haben 12 Jahre porlo me[unleserlich] gehalten – und da stirbt allerhand weg, auch völlig natür… Dadurch hatten sie ja auch in Bergen Belsen die hohe Todeszahl – …nberes war deshalb k… Vernichtungslager gewesen. Mir ist nur bekannt, als das einzig westlichste Auschw… Und dann das eine Art fliegende Kommando – weil mir kein anderer Ausdruck einfällt und wir im Dezernat ja auch nichts damit zu tun hatten, das war im Warthegau gewesen das lag ja nun auch westlicher als Auschwitz. Und dann die Sachen bei Globocrizz im General Gov. – etwas anderes habe ich nie gehört. – Diese Sache hier in Dachau ich weiß nicht – aber man doch gesagt, daß sie irgen… wo die Bombenopfer aufgeladen haben, – das KL Oranienburg hatte doch auch sehr viele Bombenangriffe und da sind auch sehr viele Häftlinge getötet worden. – Man hat ja auch den Film gedreht die "Todesmühlen" den sich jeder deutsche Soldat die allii Reg. den sie aufgreifen konnten, ansehen mußte, um sich dann hier zu sagen, solche Besti…täten hat unser Führer begangen – welche Verbrecherreg. – Später hat sich dann herausgestellt, so sagen nordamerik. Senatoren, daß sie hier Summe in der Globocrizz? Summe schon drin – soviel kann ich dazu sagen aus

Draft translation

Extra sheet---- Here we have a report from Field Marshal von Reichenau, 10 Oct 41; Wherein it has been established that the most essential aim of the campaign against the Jew. Bolshev. system is the complete smashing of the instruments of power and the extermination of the [DEL/OCR: "desmk"?] Asiatic influence in the European cultural sphere. The German soldier in the Eastern space is not only a fighter according to the rules of the art of war but also the bearer of an inexorable völkisch [racial-national] idea and the avenger for all the bestialities that have been inflicted on German and kindred nationhood. Therefore the soldier must have full understanding for the necessity of the harsh but just atonement upon the Jew. sub-humanity. A report [OCR: "Berichtem"] Field Marshal von Manstein, of 20 Nov 41; Jewry forms the middleman [DEL: [illegible]] [HW: between] the enemy in the rear and the still fight- ing remnants of the Red Wehrmacht and the Red leadership. He holds, more strongly than in Eur[ope], all the key points of the political leadership and administration of trade and of the handicraft occupied and [HW: forms] further the cell for all unrest and possible up- risings. The Jew.-Bolshev. system must be exterminated once and for all. Never again may it intervene in our European living-space. These two reports do now also confirm your agreement with the measures although it is not thereby said that you were in agreement with the gassings.---- Well, not everything was gassed either. A picture p. 209 from Dachau-- Which was the extermination camp situated west of the Iron Curtain there? Bergen-Belsen? No-------- killing was done in every conc. camp and whoever was delivered [OCR: "eingelief(ert)"] into the conc. camp and now dies there [OCR: "nuch"/"noch"?], dies normally, he was of course regarded as a victim of the conc. camp system, and if you reckon, the conc. camps west of the Iron Curtain have [OCR garbled: "12 Jahre porlo me es ghalten"] held [them?] for 12 years--and there a great deal dies off, also entirely natur[ally] Thereby you also had in Bergen-Belsen the high death figure--[OCR garbled: "nberes"] it was therefore n[o] extermination camp. To me only Auschw[itz] is known as the single westernmost one. And then that a kind of flying commando--because no other expression occurs to me and we in the section had also nothing to do with it, that had been in the Warthegau that lay now also more to the west than Auschwitz. And then the matters at Globocnizz [Globocnik] in the General Gov.--anything else I have never heard.---- This matter here in Dachau I don't know------ but one has indeed said that they somewhere [OCR: "irgen(dwo)"] had loaded up the bomb victims,--the conc. camp Oranienburg did indeed also have very many bombing raids and there also very many prisoners were killed.- One did also make the film "The Death Mills" ["Todesmühlen"] which every German soldier [HW: the alli[ed] gov.] that they could pick up had to watch, in order then to say here, such bestial- ities our Führer committed--- what a criminal gov.------ Later it then turned out, so say North American senators, that they here Volume 61 Sum in Globocnizz [Globocnik]? Sum already in it--- that much I can say to it out of

took the corpses from North American bombing raids, took the prisoners who had been killed—and not only prisoners—and threw them onto a heap. The Nazis did that. In truth they were the victims of the Allied bombing raids.

Questioner

But which was the extermination camp west of the Iron Curtain? There was one there.

Eichmann

No, I would have to know that. I would not have needed to take them to Auschwits. Bergen-Belsen was only a concentration camp, as were Buchenwald and Dachau. But I do not mean that the V…HA did not kill people in the individual concentration camps. For example, the six Jews from the Reich Association of Jews in Germany, from Berlin, who were picked up by the criminal police over the business at the exhibition—they were taken to Oranienburg and shot there. Müller told you that, after all.

Questioner

So Stutthof concentration camp was not an extermination camp. I see a picture here of a visit by the RF (Reichsführer-SS). You did not know the camp commandant Pauli?

Eichmann

No, I did not know these people at all; I never saw them.

Questioner

Now I see someone standing here, an Obstf., and he has the LD insignia?

Eichmann

Every concentration camp had a commissar. He must have been a member of the Gestapo, specifically the local Gestapo. This man stationed in the camp was responsible, so to speak, for coordination between the commandant’s office and the local State Police headquarters. He had to deal with the …, the detention-review dates, and all those matters. Every concentration camp had that.

Questioner

He belonged to the SD (Security Service)?

Eichmann

Not to the SD (Security Service); he belonged to the Main Office of the Security Police.

Questioner

But why does he have the LD on him?

Eichmann

I was in the secret Gestapo myself and wore my SD (Security Service) diamond. Everyone in the Main Office of the Chief of the Security Police and SD, whether government councillors, senior government councillors or the lowest trainee criminal assistant, wore the SD diamond.

Questioner

But the others do not have it here?

Eichmann

Yes, the others are all Waffen-SS men. And the others had the death’s heads; you just cannot see them very well. One of them was the criminal police commissar. You can tell from the typical bearing of a pensioner. Everyone stands stiffly at attention while the RF (Reichsführer-SS) walks down the line, and this man has the typical deskbound figure.

Questioner

Did you ever have to issue a booklet for the Order Police about racial …

Eichmann

Me, no. I had nothing to do with racial policy.

Questioner

Who was that? A booklet about racial policy, only for use within the Order Police? April, May, June 1943, issued by the Chief of the Order Police—Group Walte….

Open page image and German
Page 643 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 643 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Die Leichen nordamerikanischer Bombenangriffe genommen haben, und die getöteten Häftlinge und auch nicht nur Häftlinge genommen haben und auf einen Haufen geworfen haben – das haben die Nazis gemacht. – In Wahrheit sind es die Opfer der allii Bomberangriffe gewesen. Welches war aber das Vernichtungslager westl des eisernen Vorhangs, da war eins da Nein, das müßte ich ja wissen, ich hätte sie ja nicht nach Auschwitz zu fahren brauchen – Bergen Belsen war nur ein KL. – ebenso Buchenwald und Dachau – Ich will aber damit nicht sagen, daß das VuHA in den einzelnen KL nicht getötet hätte – ZB die 6 Juden aus der Reichsvereinig f.J.i.D. aus Berlin, die durch die Kripo erfaßt wurden wegen der Sache in der Ausstellung – die wurden nach Oranienbur… geschaffen und dort erschossen. – Das hat Müller ihnen ja gesagt. – Das KL Stutthof war also kein Vernichtungslager – Ich sehe da nun ein Bild von ei… Besuch des RF – den Lagerkommandanten Pauli haben Sie nicht gekannt? Nein, ich habe diese Leute überhaupt nicht gekannt, nie gesehen. Jetzt sehe ich hier einen stehen, ein Obstf. und der hat das LD Zeichen? Ein jedes KL hat einen Kommissar gehabt, das muß ein Angeh. der Gestapo gewesen sein und zwar der örtl Gestapo und dieser Mann der nun im KL saß der hat gewissermaßen die Koordinierung unter sich gehabt zwischen der Kommandatur und der örtl Stapo Leit – der hatte die Formalien, die Haftüberprüfungstermine und alles die ganzen Sachen hatte er zu bearbeiten – aber das hat ein jedes KL gehabt. – Der gehörte zum SD? Nicht zum SD – der gehörte zum HA Sipo. Aber wieso hat er das LD drauf. – Ich bin ja auch bei der geheimen Gestapo gewesen und habe meine SD Raute getragen ein jeder der im am HA Chef der Sipo und SD war, ob das reg. Räte waren oder Ober-Reg Räte, oder ob das letzte Kriminalassistentanwärter war, die haben die SD Raute getragen. Aber die anderen haben es hier nicht? Ja, die anderen sind auch alles Leute von der Waffen SS. – Und die anderen hatten die Totenköpfe gehabt – man sieht es nur nicht so gut – und der eine war der Kriminalkommissar – das sieht man schon an der typischen Haltung eines Pensionist… Alle stehen stramm und gerade während der RF die Front abschreitet und dieser Mann hat die typische Schreibtischfigur… Haben Sie einmal ein Heft für die O-Pol heraus geben müssen über die Rassenpleit… Ich nein – ich habe mit Rassenpolitik nichts zu tun gehabt. – Wer war das – ein Heft über Rassenpolitik nur für Gebrauch innerhalb der O-Pol.? April, Mai, Juni 43 Herausgegeben von Chef der Ord-Pol-Gruppe Walte[unleserlich]

Draft translation

8 Volume 61 [HW: 643] The corpses have taken from North American bombing raids, and have taken the killed prisoners and also not only prisoners and thrown [them] onto a heap--- that the Nazis did.----In truth they were the victims of the alli[ed] bombing raids. But which was the extermination camp west of the Iron Curtain, there was one there No, I would have to know that, I would not have needed to drive them to Auschwitz then---Bergen Belsen was only a KL [concentration camp].- likewise Buchenwald and Dachau----- But I do not thereby want to say that the [?VuHA?] did not kill in the individual KL- e.g. the 6 Jews from the Reich Association f[or] J[ews] i[n] G[ermany] from Berlin, who were seized by the Kripo [criminal police] because of the matter in the exhibition-- they were brought to Oranienbur[g] and shot there.-- Mueller told them that, after all.-- So the KL Stutthof was not an extermination camp ---I now see a picture there of a visit of the RF [Reichsführer]--- the camp commandant Pauli you did not know? No, I did not know these people at all, never saw [them]. Now I see one standing here, an Obstf. [Obersturmführer] and he has the LD sign [insignia]? Every KL had a commissar, that must have been a member of the Gestapo and indeed of the local Gestapo and this man who now sat in the KL had, in a manner of speaking, the coordination under him between the commandant's office and the local Stapo [State Police] leadership--he had the [?Verms alien?], the detention-review appointments and all the whole matters he had to process-- but every KL had that.-- He belonged to the SD? Not to the SD -- he belonged to the HA Sipo [Main Office Security Police]. But how does he have the LD on it.--- I too was in the secret St[ate] Gestapo and wore my SD lozenge every one who was at the HA Chief of the Sipo and SD, whether they were reg[ierungs] Räte [government councillors] or Ober-Reg[ierungs] Räte, or whether that was the lowest criminal-assistant-candidate, they wore the SD lozenge. But the others do not have it here? Yes, the others are also all people of the Waffen SS.-- And the others had the death's-heads---- one just doesn't see it so well---- and the one was the criminal commissar--- one can see it already from the typical bearing of a pensioner All stand at attention and straight while the RF walks the front and this man has the typical desk figure..... Did you once have to issue a booklet for the O-Pol about the racial matter [?Rassenpleit?] I no--- I had nothing to do with racial policy.---- Who was that--- a booklet about racial policy only for use within the O-Pol.? April, May, June 43 Issued by Chief of the Ord-Pol-Group Walte[illegible]

The Chief of the Order Police did that under his own authority ….

Questioner

Do you know the booklet?

Eichmann

No. It came from [? an] office, ‘Ideological Education’ ….

Questioner

At the RF (Reichsführer-SS)’s speech on 16 October 1943 in Posen?

Eichmann

I was not present.

Questioner

At a speech on 17 September 1940 in Metz?

Eichmann

Not there either. I was only present in Breslau.

Questioner

At a speech in August 1940—the location is not …—

Eichmann

No. The Breslau speech was very late. There were already heavy bombing raids on Berlin. I thought to myself that it was good to get away from Berlin for a few days. It could have been around the end of 1943.

Questioner

A Dr. Wetzel in the Eastern Ministry?

Eichmann

Yes, I know of him. I was often annoyed with him.

Questioner

Wetzel writes in April 1942:

Questioner reads from Wetzel's comments on the General Plan East

the course possibly proposed by Abel, of liquidating the Russian people, is out of the question—quite apart from the fact that carrying it out is hardly possible, also for economic and political reasons. Under these circumstances, different paths must be taken to deal with the Russian problem. These are to be outlined briefly below. In any case, the complete annihilation of the Russian people cannot be in our interest, since we ourselves are by no means able to fill the gap with our own people.

Questioner

Herr Wetzel wrote these comments and reflections on the General Plan East of the RFSS (Reichsführer-SS) on 17 April 1942, and in these notes he was fairly critical of the eastern plan of the all-powerful Reichsführer-SS.

Eichmann

That is right. I already said I was very often annoyed with Wetzel. I had nothing to do with the Russian people. He just interfered with us everywhere.

Questioner

You have no idea whether he—because he headed the racial department, Jewish question, of the Eastern Ministry—you had no further contact with him?

Eichmann

No, no.

Questioner

Then further. The RF (Reichsführer-SS) says:

Questioner reads from Himmler's Posen speech

‘Most of you will know what it means when 100 corpses lie together, or when 500 or 1,000 lie there. To have endured this and, apart from human weaknesses, remained decent in doing so—that has made us hard. This is a page of glory in our history that has never been written and must never be written.’

Questioner

Now he goes on:

Questioner reads from Himmler's speech

‘In undertaking the general …. Hereditary-biological problems also had to be taken into account. In various regions, young men and girls with blue eyes and an acceptable build were picked out—’

Open page image and German
Page 644 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 644 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Das hat der Chef der Ord-Pol in eigener Zuständi[unleserlich] Kennen Sie das Heft? Nein. – es kam von einem Amt "Weltanschauliche Erziehung" [unleserlich] Bei der Rede vom RF am 16 Okt 43 in Posen? War ich nicht zugegen. Bei einer Rede am 17 Sept 1940 in Metz Auch nicht. – Ich war nur in Breslau zugegen Ist im August 1940 bei einer Rede – wo wird nicht andrer – Nein. – Die Breslauer Rede war sehr spät, da waren schon heftige Bombenangriffe auf Berlin – ich dachte mir schon es ist gut zu sein mal von Berlin wegzukommen für ein paar Tage – es könnte ungefähr so Ende 43 gewesen sein. – Ein Dr. Wetzel im Ostminist? Ja, ist mir bekannt, über den habe ich mich oft geärgert. – Wetzel schreibt im April 1942; Der von Abel evtl vorgeschlagene Weg das Russentum zu liquidieren, abgesehen davon daß die Durchführung kaum möglich ist, auch aus wirtsch. polit. Gründen, kommt nicht in Betracht – Unter diesen Umständen müssen verschied. Wege gegangen werden, um mit dem Russenproblem fertig zu werden. Die sollen im Folgenden kurz aufgezeichnet werden; – Auf jeden Fall kann eine vollkommene Vernichtung des Russentums nicht in unserem Interesse liegen, da wir selbst keineswegs in der Lag sind, die Lücke mit unseren Menschen auszufüllen. Und zwar hat Herr Wetzel Stellungnahme und Gedanken im Generalplan Ost des RFSS verfaßt am 17 April 1942; und hat sich in diesen Noten ziemlich kritisch über den Ostplan des allmächtigen RF SS ausgelassen. Stimmt, ich sagte ja schon ich habe mich über Wetzel sehr oft geargert. Mit dem Russentum habe ich ja nichts zu tun gehabt. Er hat uns nur überall reingefunkt. – Sie haben nur keine Ahnung ob er nun – denn er leitete ja die Rassenabteilung Judenfrage des Ostministeriums – Sie haben mit Ihm keinen weiteren Kontakt gehabt? Nein, nein. – Dann weiter – Der RF sagt, "Von Euch werden die meisten wissen, was es heißt, wenn 100 Leichen beisammen liegen, oder wenn 500 oder 1000 daliegen. Dies durchgehalten zu haben, und abgesehen von menschlichen Schwächen, dabei anständig geblieben zu sein, das hat uns hart gemacht. Dies ist ein niemals geschriebenes und niemals zuschreibendes Ruhmesblatt unserer Geschichte… –" Nun sagt er weiter; – Bei der Inangriffnahme der allgemeinen … [unleserlich] Auch erbbiologische Probleme mußten berücksichtigt werden. In verschied. Landstricherzog man Jünglinge und Mädchen mit blauen Augen und annehmbarer Statur heraus.

Draft translation

7 Ia [illegible] [HW: 644] Did the Chief of the Ord[er]-Pol[ice] in his own jurisdi[illegible] Do you know this booklet? No.-- it came from my office "Ideological Education" [illegible] At the speech by the RF on 16 Oct 43 in Posen? I was not present. At a speech on 17 Sept 1940 in Metz Not there either.- I was only present in Breslau [HW: Is] In August 1940 at a speech--- where is not o[?ther?]---- No.------ The Breslau speech was very late, there were already heavy bombing raids on Berlin-- I already thought to myself it is good to get away from Berlin for a few days------ it could have been approximately around the end of 43.--- A Dr. Wetzel in the East Minist[ry]? Yes, I know him,.I was often annoyed about him.--- Wetzel writes in April 1942; The way of liquidating the Russiandom possibly [DEL: [?proposed?]] [HW: proposed by Abel], apart from the fact that the implementation is hardly possible, also for econom. polit. reasons, is out of the question--Under these circumstances various paths must be taken, in order to deal with the Russian problem. These shall [DEL: xxxx] be briefly outlined.in the following; -In any case a complete annihilation of the Russiandom cannot be in our interest, since we ourselves are by no means in the positio[n] to fill the gap with our people. And indeed Herr Wetzel drafted a position and thoughts in the General Plan East of the RFSS on 17 April 1942; and in these notes expressed himself rather critically about the East plan of the all-powerful RF SS. Correct, I already said I was very often annoyed about Wetzel. With the Russiandom I had nothing to do. He only interfered with us everywhere.--- You just have no idea whether he now--- for he did after all lead the Race Department Jewish Question of the East Ministry-- you had no further contact with him? No, no.- Then further---- The RF says, "Most of you will know what it means, when 100 corpses lie together, or when 500 or 1000 lie there. To have endured this, and, apart from human weaknesses, to have remained decent in doing so, that has made us hard. This is a never written and never to-be-written page of glory of our history..---" Now he says further; --At the [DEL: xxxxxxxxx] undertaking of the general ......... [illegible] Also hereditary-biological problems had to be taken into consideration. In various strips of land one selected out youths and girls with blue eyes and acceptable stature.

Questioner reads from Himmler's speech

out of the extermination.

Questioner

Do you know about that?

Of Jews? I do not know about that. But I think this has nothing to do with Jews. I think the RF (Reichsführer-SS) is referring to the Lebensborn’s projects. The Lebensborn had some sort of breeding grounds in the East.

Questioner

No, this refers to Jews.

Eichmann

Well, then it is a matter of practice, and I had nothing to do with that.

Questioner

Do you know a little booklet issued by the RF (Reichsführer-SS), by the Main Office, ‘The Subhuman (Der Untermensch)’?

Eichmann

No. But I will say the following about that. When I made the ordered trip to Bialistok and Minsk, I set to work and wrote a little booklet of about 100 typewritten pages. It was titled ‘The Final Solution of the Jewish Question’. I spoke to the head of the publishing house—the publisher had a Nordic name, Nordland Verlag—I had a discussion with the publishing director. Well, he had it printed immediately: 50,000 copies for training. Then I went to Heydrich and told him about it. Up to then I had done everything on my own. I told him the manuscript was finished and proposed that this book, which I had written during working hours, should be issued by the Chief of the Security Police and SD (Security Service), Reinhardt Heydrich. That flattered him very much, and he immediately agreed to the proposal.

And I finished the thing. I already had the proof copy in my hands and, concerning the corrections, I … the whole thing with a note to Heydrich. He now had to sign it, because it was to appear under a name. Then he put it aside and said he had reservations at the moment; he would have to think it over further. Then came the failures in Russia, and the matter disappeared.

It contained every single evacuation transport, besides general matters and questions of principle, and a whole chapter of statistics. I kept the manuscript in my desk for a long time and then destroyed it myself. The order went out to destroy all the files. That was in the last Ja- days. Everyone received the order, everyone in the central offices, and some may not have followed it so closely, so that quite a few things were found after all.

Questioner

On 15 March 1939.

Eichmann

But what does that say? It says that we made no secret at all of the work of the Security Police and SD (Security Service).

Questioner

But it did not appear.

Eichmann

Then, after the Russian campaign and so on. In principle, he had agreed. He felt very flattered that I had worked it out for him, so to speak.

Questioner

But this work did not discuss extermination measures?

Eichmann

No, I did not know about that.

Questioner reads aloud

On 15 March 1939, the Germans march into Prague. An enormous number were handed over to the Gestapo and did not enjoy even the minimum of legal protection that the German Jews still had in part—

Open page image and German
Page 645 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 645 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Aus der Vernichtung. – Ist Ihnen das bekannt? Von Juden? das weiß ich nicht – aber ich glaube das hie hat nichts mit Juden zu tun, sondern ich glaube, daß der RF hier anspielt auf die Vorhaben des Lebensborns. – Und zwar hatte der Lebensborn im Osten irgendwelche Zuchtwiesen – Nein – das hier bezieht sich auf Juden. – Nun, dann ist es eine Sache aus der Praxis und damit habe ich nichts zu tun gehabt. Kennen Sie ein Büchlein da von RF herausgegeben wurde vom HA "Der Untermensch"? Nein. – Aber dazu will ich folgendes sagen. Ich habe mich, als ich die befohlene Fahrt nach Bialistok und Minsk machte, dran gegeben und habe ein kleines Büchlein geschrieben, das hatte etwa 100 Schreibmaschinenseiten – es war betitelt "Die Endlösung der Judenfrage" ich habe mit dem Chef des Verlages, der Verlag hatte eine Nordland Verlag nordischen Namen, eine Unterredung mit dem Verlagsleiter gehabt – gut, er ließ es sofort drucken und zwar 50 000 Stück für die Schulung. – Da bin ich zu Heydrich gegangen und habe ihm das gesagt, bis dahin hatte ich alles alleine gemacht, ich habe ihm dann gesagt, das Manuskript ist fertig und habe ihm vorgeschlagen, daß dieses Buch, das ich waka während der Dienstzeit erarbeitete, herausgegeben vom Chef der Sipo und SD Reinhardt Heydrich. – Das hat ihm sehr geschmeichelt und er hats den Vorschlag sofort zustimmend beantwortet. – Und ich habe die Sache fertig gemacht, ich habe schon den Probeabdruck in den Han… gehabt und habe bzgl der Korrekturfragen das Gase mit einem Vermerk an Heydrich ge… denn daz mußte er nun unterschreiben, denn es sollte doch mit seinem Namen raus gehen und da hat er es zurückgestellt und gesagt, er hätte im Augenblick Bedenken, er müßte sich das noch überlegen. – Dann kamen die Mißerfolge in Rußland und die Sache verschwand… – Das enthielt jede einzelne Evakuierungstransport, neben den allgemeinen und grundsätzlichen Dingen und es ganzes Kapitel Statistik. – Ich habe das Manuskript noch lange Zeit in meinem Schreibtisch gehabt und habe es dann selbst vernichtet, der Befehl erging, sämtl. Akten zu vernichten. – Das war in den letzten Ja-Tagen Alle haben den Befehl bekommen, alle in den Zentralinstanzen – und manche haben sich vielleicht nicht so danach gerichtet, daß dann doch so manches auffindbar war. – Am 15 März 1939. – Aber was besagt das, das besagt an sich, daß wir gar keinen Hehl draus machten der Arbeit der Sipo und SD, – Aber es ist nicht erschienen. – – – Dann nachdem der Rußlandfeldzug usw. – Prinzipiell lag sein Einverständnis vor er fühlte sich a sehr geschmeichelt, daß ich das gewissermaßen für ihn ausgearbeitet hätte. Aber in dieser Schrift wurde nicht über Vernichtungsmaßnahmen gesprochen? Nein, das wußte ich ja nicht. – Am 15 März 1939 marschieren die Deutschen in Prag ein. – Eine ungeheure Menge wurden der Gestapo ausgeliefert und genossen nicht einmal das Minimum an gesetzl. Schutz, dessen die deutschen Juden doch immerhin noch teilweise teilhaftig waren

Draft translation

8 , Volume 61 [HW: 645] From the extermination.---Is that known to you? Of Jews? that I do not know--- but I believe this here has nothing to do with Jews, but rather I believe that the RF here is alluding to the projects of the Lebensborn.---Namely the Lebensborn had some breeding-grounds in the East-- No-- this here refers to Jews.- Well, then it is a matter from practice and with that I have had nothing to do. Do you know a little booklet that was published by RF by the HA "The Subhuman"? No.---But to that I want to say the following. When I made the ordered trip to Bialystok and Minsk, I set to it and wrote a little booklet, that had about 100 typewriter pages--it was titled "The Final Solution of the Jewish Question" I had, with the head of the publishing house, the publisher had a [TS INS: Nordland Verlag] nordic name, a discussion with the publishing director--- good, he had it printed at once and namely 50,000 copies for the training.-- Then I went to Heydrich and told him that, up to then I had done everything alone, I then told him, the manuscript is finished and proposed to him, that this book, which I waka worked out during duty time, published by the head of the Sipo and SD Reinhardt Heydrich.-- That flattered him very much and he answered the proposal at once in agreement.- And I finished the thing, I already had the proof-print in [the] hand[s] and had regarding the correction-questions the matter with a note to Heydrich [given], for that he now had to sign, for it was after all supposed to go out with a name and there he set it back and said, he had at the moment reservations, he would have to consider the xxx further.-- Then came the failures in Russia and the thing vanished..--- That contained each single evacuation-transport, alongside the general and fundamental things and a whole chapter statistics.-- I had the manuscript still for a long time in my desk and then destroyed it myself, the order went out, to destroy all files.- That was in the last Ja-days All received the order, all in the central instances--and some perhaps did not so comply with it, so that then after all much was findable.-- On 15 March 1939.-- But what does that say, that says in itself, that we made no secret at all of it the work of the Sipo and SD, -- But it did not appear.---- Then after the Russian campaign etc.----In principle his agreement was present he felt himself very flattered, that I had in a manner worked it out for him. But in this writing there was no talk about extermination-measures? No, that I did not know.--- On 15 March 1939 the Germans march into Prague.--- An enormous number were delivered to the Gestapo and did not even enjoy the minimum of legal protection, which the German Jews after all still partly partook of

Questioner reads aloud

This resulted in compulsory mass emigration such as even Austria had not experienced. Within six months, 35,000 Jews left the Protectorate, through the Central Office for Jewish Emigration.

Yes, not entirely by compulsion. They wanted to go; they were jostling for it, standing in queues for it.

Questioner reads aloud

The Germans designated the Prague Jewish community administration as the mouthpiece of all Jews in Czechoslovakia. There were 32 communities.

Eichmann

Yes, I summoned Edelstein and Weidmann.

Questioner reads aloud

In the Old Reich itself, it took a good deal of time before that kind of centralization was achieved.

Eichmann

Yes, we were able to save ourselves a great deal of trouble and work here, because we only had to copy the finished product of the Old Reich and did not have to go through the whole period of development.

Questioner reads aloud

On 26 July 1939, a certain Captain Eichmann established in Prague the branch of the six-month-old Central Bureau for Jewish Emigration. Despite Göring’s counter-order of 24 January, this Captain Eichmann belonged to Heydrich’s Security Service.

Eichmann

That is all a confused jumble of nonsense. You cannot take a proper position on it without describing everything afresh.

Questioner reads aloud

In March 1939, the flight of Jews from Austria and the Sudetengau had swollen the number of Jews in the Prague communities to 129,000. In 1939, on the eve of the first mass deportation to Poland, the number was about 90,000 people.

Eichmann

That is not right. In the whole Bohemian-Moravian region we had 100,000 Jews, and no more.

Questioner reads aloud

The Jewish community had to name a certain percentage of Jews each day for deportations.

Eichmann

No, that is not right—naming them for deportations. It received exactly the same task as Loewenherz and, later, Eppstein: to provide so many Jews each day for emigration. Every possibility must be exhausted. When trips abroad were necessary, when they—they had it very easy here in dealing with the Jews. I brought Loewenherz into it, and Eppstein too, and they could draw very extensively on the experience, on the people who obtained foreign permits. But that was not deportation; it was emigration. And the Jews themselves wanted to get away.

Questioner reads aloud

When the required quota was not reached, and above all when the required head tax was not paid, the Gestapo threatened imprisonment in a concentration camp.

Eichmann

All nonsense.

Questioner reads aloud

The poorest members of the Jewish community therefore came forward first for emigration.

Open page image and German
Page 646 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 646 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Hieraus ergab sich zwangsweise eine Massenemigration, wie sie selbst Östr. nicht erlebt hatte. Innerhalb von 6 Monaten verließen 35 000 Juden das Protekt. Durch die Zentralstelle f. J. A. Ja, nicht absolut zwangsweise – sie wollten ja, sie drängelten sich ja, sie standen ja Schlange dafür. – Die Deutschen bestimmten prag-jüd. Gemeindeverwaltung zum Sprachrohr aller Juden in der Czechoslowakei. Es handelten sich um 32 Gemeinden Ja, Edelstein und Weimann habe ich bestellt. Im Altreich selbst hat estel Zeit in Anspruch genommen bevor so eine Zentralisierung erreicht war Ja, wir haben uns hier viel Mühe und Arbeit ersparen können, weil wir das fertiggewordene Produkt des Altreichs bloß noch zu kopieren hatten, und die gesamte Entwicklungszeit nicht sehr durch zu machen hatten. Am 26 Juli 1939 errichtete ein gewisser Hauptmann Eichmann in Prag die Filiale des 6 Monte alten Zentralbüros für jüd. Auswanderung. Trotz Georings Gegenbefehl von 24. Jan. gehörte dieser Hauptmann Eichmann Heydrichs Sicherheitsdienst an, Das ist alles ein wirres Trauszeug, da kann man keine richtige Stellung nehmen, ohne nicht alles neu zu schildern. – Im März 1939 war durch die Judenflucht aus Östreich und dem Sudetengau, die Anzahl der Juden in den Prager Gemeinden auf 129 000 angeschwollen. 1939 am Vorabend der ersten Massendeportation nach Polen belief sich die Zahl auf etwa 90 000 Köpfe. Das stimmt nicht, im gesamten böhmisch-mährischen Raum hatten wir 100 000 Juden gehabt und nicht mehr. Die jüd. Gemeinde hatte täglich einen gewissen Prozentsatz von Juden für Deportationen namhaft zu machen Nein das stimmt nicht, zu Deportationen namhaft zu machen, sie erhielt genau dieselbe Aufgabe wie sie Löwenherz erhielt, wie auch später Eppstein, täglich Soundsoviel Juden zu stellen zur Auswanderung. Alle Möglichkeiten sind zu erschöpfen, wenn Auslandsreisen notwendig waren, wenn sie… sie hatten es hier sehr leicht in der Frage für die Juden, ich habe Löwenherz mit eingebaut, ebenso Eppstein, und sie haben sich hier weitgehendst anlehnen können an die Erfahrungen an die Leute zur Beschaffung von Auslandsgenehmigungen. Das war aber keine Deportation, das war Auswanderung. Und die Juden selber wollten ja weg. – Wurde die verlangte Quote nicht erreicht und vor allen Dingen die verlangte Kopfsteuer nicht entrichtet, drohte die Gestapo mit dem KL. Alles Blödsinn. – Die Ärmsten der jüd. Gemeinde fanden sich daher als erste für die Auswanderung.

Draft translation

9 Volume 61 [HW: 646] From this there necessarily resulted a mass emigration such as even Austria had not experienced. Within 6 months 35,000 Jews left the Protectorate. Through the Central Office for J[ewish] E[migration]. Yes, not absolutely by force---- they wanted [to], you see, they pushed/jostled themselves, you see, they stood in a queue for it.---- The Germans designated the Prague-Jewish community administration as the mouthpiece of all Jews in the Czechoslovakia. It was a matter of 32 communities. Yes, Edelstein and Weimann I ordered/summoned. In the Altreich [Old Reich] itself it took time before such a centralization was achieved. Yes, here we were able to save ourselves much trouble and work, because we merely still had to copy the finished product of the Altreich, and did not have to go through the entire development period very [much]. On 26 July 1939 a [DEL: cert.x.] certain Captain Eichmann [HW: in Prague] established the branch of the 6-month-old Central Bureau for Jewish Emigration. Despite Göring's counter-order of 24 Jan., this Captain Eichmann belonged to Heydrich's Security Service. That is all a confused muddle-stuff, one cannot take a proper position on it, without narrating everything anew.---- In March 1939, through the flight of Jews from Austria and the Sudetengau, the number of Jews in the Prague communities had swollen to 129,000. [1]939 on the eve of the first mass deportation to Poland the number amounted to about 90,000 heads. That is not correct, in the entire Bohemian-Moravian area we had had 100,000 Jews and not more. The Jewish community had daily to name a certain percentage of Jews for deportations. No that is not correct, to name for deportations, it received exactly the same task as Loewenherz received, as also later Eppstein, daily to furnish so-and-so-many Jews for emigration. All possibilities are to be exhausted, when foreign travel was necessary, when they....... they had it very easy here in the question for the Jews, I built in Loewenherz [with], likewise Eppstein, and they were here able to lean extensively on the experiences on the people for the procurement of foreign permits. But that was not a deportation, that was emigration. And the Jews themselves wanted to get away, you see.-- If the demanded quota was not reached and above all the demanded head-tax not paid, the Gestapo threatened with the concentration camp. All nonsense.----- The poorest of the Jewish community therefore came forward first for the emigration.

No, the rich who still had property had to bear the cost of departure—or rather, finance the departure of the poor. That was my principle. Not only in Bohemia and Moravia, but also in Austria and Germany. That was only fair and reasonable, and the Jewish leaders always gave me great credit for having forced a sense of social responsibility on the Jews, something they had not known before.

Questioner reads aloud

One thousand Jews were simply loaded onto German ships with alleged entry visas for South America or English entry permits and for Palestine, and often had to drift about on ships at sea for … weeks.

Eichmann

Yes, that is the fairy tale about that ghost ship.

Questioner

Yes, it says here that you gave these people alleged visas.

Eichmann

That was not my work. I have never in my life given a single Jew a visa. It was the work of the Jewish political functionaries to obtain these visas. I only promised them that, if it cost money, I would devalue the mark accordingly for them. Nothing more.

Questioner

Did you plan to resettle about 70,000 Jews a year?

Eichmann

I cannot say that. I undoubtedly adopted the same standard I had achieved in Vienna: getting up to 100,000 Jews to emigrate in one year. I said to myself: if it worked like that in Vienna, it will work in the Protectorate too, much more easily, because I could make full use—100 percent—of the experience of the Israelite religious community in Vienna. I also repeatedly ordered Loewenherz to visit Prague so that he could pass on his experience to the Jewish administration there.

I also had Loewenherz come to Berlin to advise Eppstein, although Loewenherz was not at all pleased to carry the fruits of his efforts and his experience everywhere. Nor did it suit Eppstein suddenly to have to take a Loewenherz as an adviser. The fact was that Berlin and Prague had nothing but advantages from the experience in Vienna, and perhaps fewer difficulties as a result. I really threw myself into this field, into this task, so that I have not forgotten this work so quickly and cannot allow any inaccuracies or errors.

Questioner

Did you know Dr. Kafka, chairman of the Jewish community in Prague?

Eichmann

Yes. What about it?

Questioner

He is said to have pointed out that the Jews’ blocked assets made mass emigration on that scale impossible.

Eichmann

That is quite possible. Then I will have eased the restrictions somehow. I did everything to create the financial conditions that Jewish organizational life, Jewish political life and Jewish community life needed:

a) so as not to fall into criminality;

b) to finance its own administrative apparatus;

c) to secure the financing of emigration.

Open page image and German
Page 647 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 647 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Nein, die Reichen die noch Besitz hatten mußten die Abwanderung bzw. die Finanzierung für die Abwanderung der Armen tragen, so war mein Grundsatz. Nicht nur in Böhmen und Mähren, sondern auch in Ostreich und in Deutschland. Das war nicht mehr wie recht und billig und das haben mir die jüd. Leiter immer sehr hoch angerechnet, daß ich ein zwangsweise soziales Verständnis erzwungen hatte bei den Juden, das kannten sie vorher nicht. – 1000 Juden wurden mit angeblichen Einreisevisa für Südamerika oder engl. Einreisegenehmigun… und für Palast einfach auf deutsche Schiffe verfrachtet und mußten sich oft ende… Wochen auf Schiffen auf dem Meer herumtreiben. – Ja, das ist da Mär von diesem Geisterschiff… Ja, es wird hier gesagt, daß Sie diesen Leuten angebliche Visas gaben. Das ist nicht meine Arbeit gewesen, ich habe nie in meinem Leben einem einzigen Juden ein Visum gegeben, das war die Arbeit der jüd. polit. Funktionäre gewesen, diese Visas aufzutreiben. – Ich habe ihnen nur versprochen, daß wenn es Geld kostet ich ihnen dann die Mark entsprechend abwerte – weiter gar nichts. Hatten Sie eine Aussiedlung von etwa 70 000 Juden im Jahr vor? Das kann ich nicht sagen, ich habe mir zweifellos denselben Maß-Stab zu eigen gemacht, den ich in Wien erzielte, nämlich in einen Jahr bis zu 100 000 Juden zur Auswanderung zu bringen – ich habe mir gesagt, wenn es so in Wien ging, wird es auch im Prot. gehen, noch val leichter weil ich mir ja die Erfahrungen der israel. Kultusgemeinde in Wien 100% dienstbar machen und habe auch des öfteren den Besuch von Löwenherz nach Prag angeordnet, damit er der jüd. Administrative in Prag sein Erfahrungen mitteilen kann. Ich habe auch Löwenherz nach Berlin kommen lassen, damit er den Eppstein berät – obwohl es Löwenherz gar nicht so angenehm war, die Früchte seiner Bemühungen und seine Erfahrungen überall hinzutragen, ebenso waren auch Eppstein nicht recht, ein Löwenherz nun plötzlich als Ratgeber haben zu müssen. – Die Tatsache jedenfalls war die, daß Berlin und Prag durch die Erfahrungen in Wien nur Vorteile hatten und vielleicht dadurch weniger Schwierigkeiten. Auf diesem Gebiet, in diese Afgabe habe ich mich nun wirklich sehr hineingekniet so daß ich diese Arbeit nicht so schnell vergessen habe und ich es zu keinen Unrichtigkeiten oder Unkorrektheiten kommen lassen kann. Haben Sie Dr. Kafka gekannt, Vorsitzender der Jüd. Gemeinde in Prag? Ja, – was ist damit. Er soll darauf hingewiesen haben, daß das gesperrte Vermögen der Juden eine derart Massenauswanderung unmöglich macht Das ist leicht möglich, dann werde ich die Sperren irgendwie aufgelockert haben. Ich habe alles getan um da finanziellen Voraussetzungen zu schaffen, was das jüd. organis. Leben, was das jüd. polit. Leben, was das jüd. Gemeindeleben braucht a) um nicht der Kriminalität anheim zu fallen b) um den eigenen Verwaltungsapparat zu finanzieren c) um die Auswanderung finanziell sicher zu stellen.

Draft translation

No, the rich ones who still had property had to bear the emigration or rather the financing for the emigration of the poor, that was my principle. Not only in Bohemia and Moravia, but also in Austria and in Germany. That was no more than right and fair and we [/the] jew. leaders always credited [it to] me very highly, that I had compulsorily enforced a social understanding among the Jews, that they had not known before.---- [HW: alleged] 1000 Jews were shipped off simply onto German ships with entry visas for South America or engl. entry permit[s] and for Palest[ine], and often had to drift around [for] end[less] weeks on ships on the sea.-- Yes, that is the fairy-tale/legend of that ghost ship...... Yes, it is said here that you gave these people alleged visas. That was not my work, I have never in my life given a single Jew a visa, that was the work of the jew. polit. functionaries, to procure these visas.--I only promised them that if it costs money I would then devalue the Mark for them accordingly--nothing further at all. Did you intend an emigration/resettlement of about 70,000 Jews per year? That I cannot say, I undoubtedly adopted the same standard/measure for myself that I achieved in Vienna, namely to bring up to 100,000 Jews to emigration in one year--I said to myself, if it worked so [well] in Vienna, it will also work in the Prot[ectorate], even much easier because I could make the experience[s] of the israel. Kultusgemeinde [religious community] in Vienna 100% serviceable [to me] and I also several times ordered the visit of Loewenherz to Prague, so that he could impart his experiences to the jew. administrative [staff] in Prague. I also had Loewenherz come to Berlin, so that he could advise Eppstein----although it was not so pleasant at all for Loewenherz to carry the fruits of his efforts and his experiences everywhere, likewise it was also not quite right [/agreeable] to Eppstein, to now suddenly have to have a Loewenherz as advisor.---- [DEL: [?Barx?]] The fact in any case was, that Berlin and Prague had only advantages from the experiences in Vienna and [that] I [had] many [/thereby fewer] difficult[ies] as a result. In this area, into this task I have now really dug myself in [/thrown myself] very [much] so that I have not forgotten this work so quickly and I cannot let it come to any inaccuracies or incorrectnesses. Did you know Dr. Kafka, chairman of the Jew. community in Prague? Yes,- what about it. He is said to have pointed out that the blocked property of the Jews makes such a mass emigration impossible That is easily possible, then I will have somehow loosened the blocks. I did everything to create the financial preconditions, [for] what the jew. organis[ational] life, what the jew. polit. life, what the jew. community life needs a) so as not to fall prey to criminality b) to finance its own administrative apparatus c) to secure the emigration financially.

Questioner

You are then supposed to have threatened, when he pointed to the blocked assets, to seize 300 Jews and send them to Dachau and Merkelsgruen…

Merkelsgruen—that's the first I've heard of it. Soup greens (Suppengruen) do exist, I suppose. It's all lies and fabrication.

Questioner

Did you have a plan to register the Jews street by street?

Eichmann

That was the business of the Jewish administration, not my business. It made no difference to me; they had the greatest freedom of action.

Questioner reads aloud

Had the war not broken out five weeks later, Eichmann would undoubtedly have made good on his threat.

Eichmann

Now he's already backing off, Mr. Soup Greens (Suppengruen).

Questioner reads aloud

By October 1939, 35,000 Jews had already left the country. But the Prague Jewish community had nevertheless grown again, from 35,425 to 46,170 members. Because 9,000 Jews were forcibly evacuated from smaller towns to Prague!

Eichmann

Yes, that's right. The hinterland was cleared, and it was much better, too, that they came under the care of a central Jewish authority.

Questioner

Are you aware that Heydrich was fundamentally opposed to ghettos?

Eichmann

I really have to deny that, because he took up my proposal for Theresienstadt enthusiastically. It was ghettoization, after all; it was an area where only Jews could stay.

Questioner reads aloud

Heydrich's aim was achieved—that is, Prague became a breeding ground for epidemics through its overpopulation. The next step led inevitably to mass deportations, once room would have been created for them.

Eichmann

No, this road to mass deportations could not yet have been foreseen at all. It was a matter of accelerated emigration. By having the hinterland cleared of Jews and having the people move to Prague, into the vacuum that formed there through those who had managed to emigrate in the meantime—if there had been room for 50,000 before, and 20,000 emigrated, then I had a vacuum of 20,000, and I could clear the provinces and put them in there. Here they were under the control of the Jewish functionaries who enjoyed my trust.

They were looked after financially; they did not fall into criminality so easily, and here they were caught up in the atmosphere of the emigration psychosis. In the hinterland, where they perhaps had any number of Czech friends, they might never have hit on the idea of emigrating. But here he might have hit on the idea and may have written to his acquaintances and relatives abroad, and there may perhaps have been 100 cases of people obtaining an opportunity to emigrate for themselves in this way.

Questioner reads aloud

Following the Prague and Vienna model, Jewish administrative councils were also established in the towns of Poland and Russia. In the years 1941 to 1943 they had to register all community members, gather them at an assembly point and finally lead them to executions or death camps, only to follow them themselves one day.

Open page image and German
Page 648 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 648 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Sie sollen dann gedroht haben, als er auf das gesperrte Vermögen hinwies, 300 Juden aufzugreifen um sie nach Dachau und Merkelsgrün zu schicken… Merkelsgrün, das höre ich zum ersten Mal, Suppengrün gibt es wohl. Das sind Sachen die sind alle erlogen und erstunken. Hatten Sie einen Plan die Erfassung der Juden straßenweis zu machen? Das war Sache der jüd. Administration gewesen, aber nicht meine Sache – Das war mir egal, sie hatten größte Freizügigkeit gehabt. Wäre nicht 5 Wochen später der Krieg ausgebrochen, hätte Eichmann seine Drohung zweifellos wahr gemacht Jetzt schwächt er schon ab, der Herr Suppengrün. – Schon im Okt. 1939 hatten 35 000 Juden das Land verlassen. Aber die Prager jüd. Gemeinde war trotzdem wieder von 35425 auf 46170 Mitglieder angewachsen. – Weil 9 000 Juden zwangsweise aus kleineren Städten nach Prag evakiert wurden! Ja, das stimmt. Das Hinterland wurde frei gemacht, es war ja auch viel besser sie kamen unter die Obhut einer jüd. Zentralinstanz Ist Ihnen bekannt daß Heydrich im Grunde genommen gegen Ghettos eingestellt war. Das muß ich eigentlich verneins weil er ja meinen Vorschlag mit Theresienstadt mit Feuer und Flamme aufgriff, es war doch eine Ghettoisierung, es war doch ein Bereich wo nur Juden sich aufhalten konnten. Heydrichs Ziel war erreicht – d.h. Prag wurde durch seine Überbevölkerung zu einem Gefahrenherd für Epedemien. Der nächste Weg führte unweigerlich zu Massendeportationen wenn für diese erst Raum geschaffen sein wird. – Nein, dieser Weg zu Massendeportationen war überhaupt noch nicht zu ahnen gewesen, es ging um die forcierte Auswanderung. Indem ich nämlich das Hinterland entjuden ließ und die Leute nach Prag abziehen ließ in das Vacum, das sich dort bildete, durch die inzwischen zur Auswanderung Gekommenen – wenn vorher 50 000 Platz hatten 20 000 sind ausgewandert, also hatte ich doch ein Vacum von 20 000 und da konnte ich nun die Provinzen freimachen und reinstecken. Hier standen sie unter der Kontrolle der jüd. Funktionäre die mein Vertrauen genossen. Sie sind finanziell betreut worden, sie fielen der Kriminalität nicht so leicht anheim, und sie sind hier in das Fluidum der Auswanderungspsychose hineingeraten. Im Hinterland wo sie vielleicht tschechische freunde hatten wären sie vielleich… nie auf die Auswanderungsidee verfallen – hier aber kam er vielleicht auf die Idee und mag seine Bekannte und Verwandte angeschrieben haben im Ausland und hier mag es vielleicht 100 Fälle gegeben haben, die sich auf diese Art selbst eine Auswanderungsmöglichkeit verschafft haben. – Nach dem Prager und Wiener Muster wurden in den Städten Polen und Rußlands ebenfalls jüd. Verwaltungsräte gegründet, die in den Jahren 41 bis 43 alle Gemeindemitglieder zu registrieren, auf einen Sammelplatz zu vereinen und dann endlich zu Hinrichtungen oder zu Todeslager zu leiten hatten, um ihnen dann eines Tages selbst zu folgen.

Draft translation

[HW: 648] 11 Volume 61 You are then supposed to have threatened, when he pointed to the blocked assets, to seize 300 Jews in order to send them to Dachau and Merkelsgruen... Merkelsgruen, I am hearing that for the first time, Suppengruen [soup-green] there is probably. These are things that are all fabricated and made up out of thin air. Did you have a plan to carry out the registration of the Jews street by street? That was the affair of the Jewish administration, but not my affair----- That was all the same to me, they had the greatest freedom of movement. Had the war not broken out 5 weeks later, Eichmann would without doubt have made his threat come true Now he is already softening it, Mr. Suppengruen.--- Already in Oct. 1939 35,000 Jews had left the country. But the Prague Jewish community had nevertheless again grown from 35,425 to 46,170 members.--- Because 9,000 Jews were forcibly evacuated from smaller towns to Prague! Yes, that is correct. The hinterland was made free, it was indeed also much better [that] they came under the care of a Jewish central authority Is it known to you that Heydrich was fundamentally opposed to ghettos. That I must actually deny because he took up my proposal with Theresienstadt with fire and flame, it was after all a ghettoization, it was after all an area where only Jews could reside. Heydrich's goal was achieved--- i.e. Prague became through its overpopulation a source of danger for epidemics.. The next path led inevitably to mass deportations once room shall first have been created for these.-- No, this path to mass deportations was not at all yet to be anticipated, it was about the forced emigration. Namely by my having the hinterland de-Jewed and letting the people withdraw to Prague into the vacuum that formed itself there, through those meanwhile [?come to emigration?]-----if previously 50,000 had room 20,000 have emigrated, so I did after all have a vacuum of 20,000 and there I could now make the provinces free and stuff [them] in. Here they stood under the control of the Jewish functionaries who enjoyed my trust. They were looked after financially, they did not so easily fall prey to criminality, and they got here into the fluidum of the emigration-psychosis. In the hinterland where they perhaps had x Czech friends they would perhaps never have hit upon the emigration idea----but here he perhaps came upon the idea and may have written to his acquaintances and relatives abroad and here there may perhaps have been 100 cases who in this way procured for themselves an emigration possibility.-- After the Prague and Vienna pattern, in the cities of Poland and Russia likewise Jewish administrative councils were founded, which in the years 41 to 43 had to register all community members, to unite [them] at a collection place and then finally to lead [them] to executions or to death camps, in order themselves then one day to follow them.

Questioner

Do you know anything about that? About these administrative councils in Poland and Russia.

No, but it is entirely conceivable that the General Government authorities, the civilian offices as well as the police offices, made very extensive use of that practice, for one thing to carry out a concentration.

Questioner

Now,

Questioner reads aloud

this bringing in of the Jewish communities and so on may be regarded as Heydrich's invention alone.

Eichmann

Yes, if that is how you wish to put it. He was my chief, after all; yes, in principle, yes. But the initial spark, before Heydrich made it a principle, before he approved it, originated between …, Dr. Loewenherz and my humble self, on the day I said to Loewenherz: here are pencil and paper; go back to your cell and think it all over; we'll speak again tomorrow. Then Loewenherz worked out a program of action for me, and I liked it immensely. And then I said to myself: good, this man will lead and direct Jewish affairs in Austria.

[This has already been told.]

It was one afternoon. I had Loewenherz brought in; he lied to me at great length, or so at least I believed, and I slapped him.

Questioner

How did he lie?

Eichmann

I no longer remember. I first questioned him at great length about all sorts of things from his earlier life, and then, in response to his answers, I slapped him. Then I told him that there had to be a reorganization here now: everything was locked up, everything had ground to a halt, and so on—the emigration business. And I talked to him for hours after the slap. Then I put paper and pencil in his hand and said: right, Loewenherz, go back and think about how you envisage these things.

My idea is that this reorganization must consist of strengthening the Zionist organizations again, with emigration as their direction. Assimilated Jews interest me. The entire Israelite Religious Community in Vienna is to be responsible for all Jewish political life in the Ostmark. Those were points I worked out for myself before I met Loewenherz. And so I said to Loewenherz: think it through for yourself and give me a program of action showing how you envisage it. For you are to be responsible for the work—not you alone, but you need your apparatus for it.

Then he described and set down everything for me precisely, down to the smallest detail. And then I said to myself: the man is not right. And concentration in Vienna, Austria's swollen head—that is where the Jews must come together. And Loewenherz was the right man; the people had enormous respect for him, and I reinforced that respect. I instructed my orderlies and the guards that Loewenherz was never to wait in my anteroom longer than absolutely necessary, that I did not wish it, that he was to have access to me as quickly as possible, unless I had a really important meeting—…

Open page image and German
Page 649 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 649 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Ist Ihnen davon was bekannt? – Von diesen Verwaltungsräten in Polen und Rußla… Nein, aber es ist durchaus denkbar, daß die Gen Govbehörden, die zivilen Stelle… als auch die poliz. Stellen sich der Praxis weitgehendst bedienten, um einmal ein Konzentrierung vorzunehmen Jetzt – dieses Einschalten der jüd. Gemeinden usw. darf als alleinige Erfindung Heydrichs angesehen werden. – Ja, wenn sie es so wollen, es war immerhin mein Chef gewesen, ja im Prinzip ja, aber die Initialzündung bevor Heydrich sich das zum Prinzip machte, bevor er es genehmigte, war an sich geboren worden zwischen Sturfer, Dr. Löwenherz, und meiner Wenigkeit, an dem Tage, an dem ich Löwenherz sagte, hier haben sie Bleistift und Papier, gehen sie in ihre Zelle zurück und überlegen sie sie alles, wir sprechen uns morgen wieder. Und da hat mir Löwenherz ein Aktionsprogramm ausgearbeitet und das gefiel mir außerordentlich – und da habe ich mir gesagt, gut der Mann wird die Judenangelegenheit in Östr, leiter und lenke… (Ist schon erzählt worden –) Es war an einem Nachmittag gewesen, ich ließ Löwenherz kommen, er log mich lang u breit, so glaubte ich es wenigstens, und habe ihm eine geknallt. Wieso log er? Ich weiß es heute nicht mehr, ich habe ihn erst lang und breit ausfragt, – über alles mögliche aus seinem früheren Leben und auf seine Antworten denn, knallte ich ihm eine. – Dann habe ich ihm erzählt, das hier nun eine Reorganis. erfolgen müsse, alles wäre eingesperrt, alles wäre erlahmt usw. … die Auswanderungsgeschichten, Und ich unterhielt mich mit ihm, Stunden, nach der Ohrfeig und dann habe ich ihm Papier und Bleistift in die Hand gedrückt und habe ihm gesagt, so, Löwenherz gehen se zurück, denken sie mal darüber nach, wie sie sich diese Sachen vorstell… Ich stelle mir vor, diese Reorganis. muß bestehen aus Wiedererstarkung der zionistischen Organis. – Richtung Auswanderung – assimil. Juden interessiert mich, die gesamt israel. Kultusgemeinde in Wien soll der Träger des ganzen jüd. – polit. Lebens in der Ostmark sein. – Das waren Punkte die ich mir zusammenarbeitete, bevor ich mit Löwenherz zusammen traf. – Und so sagte ich zu Löwenherz, machen sie sich ihre eigenen Gedanken und geben Sie mir ein Aktionsprogramm, wie sie sich das nun vorstellen. Denn sie sollen der Träger der Arbeit sein, sie nicht allein, aber sie brauchen ihren Apparat dazu. – Und da hat er mir nun bis ins kleinste alles ganz genau geschildert und aufgezeichn… Und da habe ich mir gesagt, der Mann ist nicht richtig – und Konzentrierung in Wien, der Wasserkopf von Östr. da müssen die Juden zusammen kommen. Und Löwenhe… war der geeignete Mann, die Leute hatten gewaltigen Respekt vor ihm und ich habe diesen Respekt noch untermauert – ich habe meinen Ordonanzen Anweisung gegeben ebenso den Wachen, daß Löwenherz in meinem Vorzimmer nie alsnerg als unbedingt nötigar, zu warten habe, daß ich das nicht wünsche, daß er möglichst schnell Zutritt zu mir haben soll, es sei denn ich hätte eine wirklich wichtige Besprechu…

Draft translation

12 Volume 61 [HW: 649] Is anything about that known to you?-- About these administrative councils [Verwaltungsräte] in Poland and Russia No, but it is entirely conceivable that the Gen[eral] Gov[ernment] authorities, the civilian offices as well as the police offices made extensive use of the practice, in order to once undertake a concentration Now--this bringing-in of the Jew[ish] communities etc. may be regarded as the sole invention of Heydrich.-- Yes, if you want it that way, he was after all my chief, yes in principle yes, but the.initial ignition, before Heydrich made that into a principle, before he approved it,, was as such born between [?Sturfer?], Dr. Löwenherz, and my humble self, on the day on which I said to Löwenherz, here you have pencil and paper, go back to your cell and think over everything, we will speak again tomorrow. And then Löwenherz worked out for me an action program and that pleased me exceedingly-- and then I said to myself, good, this man will lead and direct the Jewish matter in Austr[ia] (Has already been told----------) It had been on an afternoon, I had Löwenherz brought, he lied to me at length and broadly, so I at least believed, and I gave him one [a slap]. How did he lie? I do not know it today anymore, I first questioned him at length and broadly,-- about all sorts of things from his earlier life and at his answers then, I gave him one [a slap].-- Then I told him, that here now a reorganiz[ation] must take place, everything would be locked up, everything would be permitted etc.... the emigration stories, And I conversed with him, for hours, after the box on the ear and then I pressed paper and pencil into his hand and said to him, so, Löwenherz go back, think it over, how you picture these things to yourself I picture to myself, this reorganiz[ation] must consist of a re-strengthening of the Zionist organiz[ation] -toward emigration-- assimil[ated] Jews interest me, the entire Israel[ite] Religious Community [Kultusgemeinde] in Vienna shall be the bearer of the whole Jewish-political life in the Ostmark.-- Those were points that I worked out together for myself, before I met with Löwenherz.--And so I said to Löwenherz, make your own thoughts and give me an action program, how you now picture that to yourself. For you are to be the bearer of the work, you not alone, but you need your apparatus for it.-- And then he now described and drew up everything for me quite exactly down to the smallest detail And then I said to myself, the man is not right [not in his right mind]---- and concentration in Vienna, the water-head [hydrocephalus/oversized capital] of Austr[ia], there the Jews must come together. And Löwenherz was the suitable man, the people had enormous respect for him and I have underpinned this respect further--- I gave instructions to my orderlies as well as to the guards, that Löwenherz in my antechamber should never have to wait longer than absolutely necessary, that I do not wish that, that he should have access to me as quickly as possible, unless I had a really important discussion

Questioner

That greatly raised Loewenherz's standing, then—the other Jews seeing how quickly he gained access to you and how he received your support in every way?

Not merely raised it: that was my intention, because Loewenherz then had over 400 Jewish employees and officials at his disposal. I expressly say officials, because I left the keeping of the registers to them—that is, the public registers of births and deaths. He had his regular registrar; all that was left untouched. He had the same rights and duties as a registrar appointed by the state. Loewenherz's preferential access to me, so to speak, raised his standing in everyone's eyes, including those of his opponents in Jewish politics, to such an extent that they did not dare even to bring a complaint against the director of the Jewish Israelite Religious Community in Vienna.

They saw that this man was virtually persona grata with the highest representative of the chief of the Security Police—that is to say, the Gestapo. And here Loewenherz had a boudoir such as there can hardly have been another in this field, with regard to a person calling at an authority. I know of no occasion since 1945 when I have been given such latitude and openness on having to call at any authority.

Questioner reads aloud

Despite everything, Eichmann must be regarded only as an instrument of Heydrich's, without initiative or a will of his own, carrying out his orders.

Eichmann

Well, I won't exactly accept 'without initiative' and 'without a will of my own'; something inside me rebels against that. But Heydrich's tool, of course. I had been his subordinate, after all. The point is that on the one hand I received my orders and instructions, and on the other I had my oath to the flag and my obligations of service, and had to obey. If a Jewish scribbler writes here 'a will-less or pliant tool', that is something that exists only in the brains of sick people, not of people with a soldierly outlook. I had to obey. To the extent that I learned to obey, I could also command my subordinates. I could demand precisely the same obedience from them as I dutifully gave my superiors. If people call that corpse-like obedience (Kadavergehorsam), let them, for it was corpse-like obedience that made Prussia great.

Questioner reads aloud

Eichmann completed his apprenticeship at the central emigration office of the Jewish community in Prague.

Eichmann

That is wrong. I was no longer an apprentice there; I was already a master. I was an apprentice in 1935 and 1936. Back then I even learned Hebrew. Today I can scarcely manage anything—perhaps a Yiddish newspaper, if it has large type and I'm having a good day, roughly give the sense of the headlines. When I went to Palestine, I had already been a journeyman. And when I came back, I was made a master.

Open page image and German
Page 650 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 650 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Daß hat nun die Stellung von Löwenherz sehr gehoben, daß die anderen Juden gesehen haben, wie schnell er bei Ihnen Zutritt erhielt und wie er überhaupt von Ihnen in jeder Art und Weise Unterstützung bekam? Nicht nur gehoben, es war von mir bezweckt gewesen, denn Löwenherz verfügte dann über 400 jüd. Angestellte und Beamte. – Ich sage ausdrücklich Beamte, denn ich habe ihnen die Matrikelführung überlassen, das ist die öffentlich Geburts- und Sterberegisterführung. Er hatte seinen regulären Standesbeamten gehabt, all das wurde unangetastet gelassen. Er hatte dieselben Rechte und Pflicht wie ein von Staate bestallter Standesbeamte. Dadurch, das Löwenherz bei mir gewissermaßen bevorzugten Zutritt hatte, hob Löwenherz' Stellung in aller Augen, auch in denen, die ihn jüd-politisch anfeindeten, dergestalt daß sie es nicht wagten gegen den Direktor der jüd. israel. Kultusgemeinde in Wien auch nur beschwerdeführend entgegen zu treten. Weil sie eben sahen, das dieser Mann quasi persona grata war bei dem Höchst Beauftragten des Chefs der Sipo, – sprich Gestapo war. – Und hier hatte Löwenherz ein Boudoir wie es wohl kaum ein Boudior auf diesem Gebiet gegeben hat, im Hinblick auf wie bei einen Menschen der bei einer Behörde vorspricht. – Mir ist kein Fall bekannt seit 1945 wo mir eine solche Freizügigkeit und Freimut zukam, wenn ich auf irgendeiner Behörde vorsprechen mußte Man darf Eichmann trotz allem nur als ein initiativenlosen, willenloses, ausführendes Organ Heydrichs ansehen. – Nun initiativenlos und willenlos will ich nicht gerade akzeptieren, da sträubt sich irgendwie mein Inneres dagegen, – aber Werkzeug Heydrichs selbstveret. Ich war ja sein Untergebener gewesen. Nun die Sache ist ja nun es, daß ich meine Befehle und Weisungen bezog auf der einen Seite und auf der anderen Seite ja meine Fahneneid und meine Dienstverpflichtung hatte und hier zu gehorchen hatte. – Wenn ein jüd. Schreiberling hier schreibt, willenlos oder gefügiges Werkzeug, dann ist das etwas, was nur in den Gehirnen kranker Menschen existiert, aber nicht soldatisch behafteter Menschen. Ich hatte zu gehorchen gehabt, in dem Maße in dem ich gehorchen lernte, konnte ich auch meine Nachgeordneten befehlen. Ich konnte von ihnen genau denselben Gehorsam verlangen, wie ich ihn pflichtschuldigst meinen Vorgesetzten gab. Wenn man das Kadavergehorsam nennt, soll man es ruhig tun, den durch Kadavergehorsam wurde Preußen groß. Eichmann brachte seine Lehrzeit im Zentralauswanderungsbüro der jüd. Gemeinde in Prag hinter sich. Das ist verkehrt, da war ich nicht mehr Lehrbub, da war ich scho Meister. Lehrbub war ich in den Jahren 1935/36 – da lernte ich sogar hebreisch – heute kann ich kaum noch etwas, nur vielleicht eine jiid. Zeitung, wenn sie große Letter hat, und ich auch einen guten Tag habe – in etwa sinngemäß die Überschriften bekannt geben – Als ich dann nach Palast. fuhr, war ich bereits Geselle gewesen. Und als ich zurückkam, wurde ich zum Meister gemacht.

Draft translation

Band 62 [HW: 658] That has now raised the position of Loewenherz very much, that the other Jews have seen how quickly he obtained access to you and how he received support from you in every kind of way? Not only raised, it had been intended by me, for Loewenherz then had at his disposal over 400 Jewish employees and officials.-- I say expressly officials, for I left the register-keeping to them, that is the public register of births and deaths. He had his regular registrar, all that was left untouched. He had the same rights and duties as a registrar appointed by the State. Through the fact that Loewenherz had, so to speak, preferential access with me, Loewenherz's position was raised in the eyes of all, also in those of the ones who were hostile to him Jewish-politically, in such a manner that they did not dare to come forward even merely with a complaint against the director of the Jewish Israelite Religious Community in Vienna. Because they simply saw that this man was quasi persona grata with the highest deputy of the Chief of the Sipo,--that is to say Gestapo.--- And here Loewenherz had a boudoir such as there has hardly been a boudoir in this field, [TS INS: with regard to] as with a person who calls at an authority.- No case is known to me since 1945 where such freedom of movement and frankness came to me, when I had to call at any authority. One must, in spite of everything, regard Eichmann only as an initiative-less, will-less, executing organ of Heydrich.- Now initiative-less and will-less I do not want exactly to accept, there my inner self somehow bristles against it, ---- but tool of Heydrich of course. I had after all been his subordinate. Now the thing is now that I drew my orders and directives on the one side and on the other side had after all my oath to the flag and my duty of service and had here to obey.--- If a Jewish scribbler here writes, will-less or pliant tool, then that is something that exists only in the brains of sick people, but not of soldierly-marked people. I had had to obey, in the measure in which I learned to obey [?mardax?], I could also command my subordinates. I could demand of them exactly the same obedience as I dutifully gave to my superiors. If one calls that cadaver-obedience, one may calmly do so, for through cadaver-obedience Prussia became great. Eichmann had put his apprenticeship at the Central Emigration Office of the Jewish Community in Prague behind him. That is wrong, there I was no longer an apprentice-lad, there I was already a master. Apprentice-lad I was in the years 1935/36 --- there I even learned Hebrew--- today I can hardly do anything anymore, only perhaps a Jewish newspaper, if it has large letters, and if I also have a good day- roughly in accordance with the sense make known the headlines---When I then went to Palest[ine], I had already been a journeyman. And when I came back, I was made a master.

Questioner reads aloud

Oddly enough, the other side still seems uncertain about what position you last held in the SS. And there is also talk about the files of the Foreign Office, Germany III, from which it can be gathered that the functions of the inquisitor of the Jews were neither secret nor autographic. The latter is, of course, not uninteresting. The discovery of his personnel papers in the SS main office has already substantially shaken the legends about Eichmann. Rumors claim to know that he, in the …

Likewise, people claim that Eichmann returned to Palestine as a Jew after the war. However prosaic the truth may be, these rumors refuse to fall silent.

Questioner

Then it says here that you were originally in Elberfeld, then moved with your family to Linz, that your father was the head of an electrical installation business, and—

Questioner reads aloud

Eichmann grew up there in the poorest circumstances, adopted the local dialect and had a great fondness for riding. He was to follow his father in that occupation and received the corresponding training, which is why he is also described as an engineer in his civil papers.

Never.

Questioner reads aloud

In 1925 he had to give up his technical studies because his father was ruined by inflation.

Eichmann

So far it is all correct. Briefly, we originally came from western Germany. As far as I know, AEG lent a fairly large sum to what was then the Linz Tramway Electricity Company, and with that loan my old man came to Linz, in a sense as AEG Union's trusted representative. My old man had already held a senior position in the electricity companies in western Germany, and he became commercial director of the Linz Tramway and Electricity Company—not, as it says here, the head of an electrical installation business. It was a company with around 2,000 employees, responsible for Linz's electricity supply and the operation of the tramway. I never presented myself as an engineer, because I am not one. But I did study mechanical engineering, though not to the end. Around 1925 I gave up my studies, and through the general—

[unintelligible on the recording]

My old man had retired and opened a mining operation near Salzburg, on the north slope of the Unterberg, and had a mill-construction works in the …, and had taken a 50 percent share in a mechanical-engineering business in Salzburg that chiefly made small locomotives for industrial purposes. Whereas the one partner, in whose business my father put his money, somehow made a mess of things and then hanged himself from a rope, and the other concern, the mill-construction business, went under of its own accord because of the general economic situation.

And at the mining operation, together with a mine foreman my father had employed, I built a low-temperature carbonization furnace plant to break down the oil shale extracted there by fractional distillation into the individual … at the different temperatures. In theory everything could be produced there, from heavy products to light petrol, with tar products as waste products. And when the work was properly under way, and after my old man had put a great deal of money into it,

Open page image and German
Page 651 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 651 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Merkwürdigerweise scheint die Gegenseite immer noch in Unsicherheit zu verkehren, welche Stellung Sie zuletzt bei der SS einnahmen. Und man spricht auch über die Akten des AA Deutschland III, woraus zu entnehmen ist, daß die Funktionen des Judeninquisitors weder geheim noch autographisch waren. Letzteres ist natürlich nicht uninteressant. Durch das Auffinden seiner Personalpapiere, die sich im SS Hauptbüro befanden, wurden die Legenden über Eichmann bereits wesentlich erschüttert. Gerüchte wollen wissen daß er in der … ebenso will man wissen, daß Eichmann als Jude nach dem Krieg nach Palast zurückgekehrt sei. Wenn die Wahrheit auch noch so prosaisch ist, diese Gerüchte wollen nicht schweigen. – Dann steht hier weiter, daß Sie ursprünglich in Elberfeld waren, dann mit der Familie nach Linz zogen, Ihr Vater Leiter eines elekt. – techn. Installationsbetrieb war, und – Eichmann wuchs dort in ärmlichsten Verhältnissen auf, – nahm dort den Dialekt an und hatte eine große Vorliebe zum Reiten. – Er sollte seinem Vater in dem Beruf folgen und genoß auch eine dementsprechende Ausbildung – deshalb er auch in seinen Civilpapieren als "Ingenieur" bezeichnet wird Niemals – 1925 mußte er sein techn. Studium aufgeben – weil sein Vater durch die Inflation ruiniert wurde Soweit stimmt alles – kurz gesagt – ursprünglich kamen wir aus Westdeutschland, die AEG hat damals, soviel ich weiß einen höheren Betrag als Anleihe der damaligen Linzer Straßenbahn Elektrizitätsgesellschaft gegeben und mit dieser Anleihe kam mein alter Herr nach Linz gewissermaßen als Vertrauensmann der AEG Union. – mein alter Herr war ja damals auch schon in Westdeutschland in den Elektrizitätsgesell. an führender Stelle tätig gewesen und da wurde er Kaufmännischer Direktor der Linzer Straßenbahn und Elekt. Gesellschaft – also nicht Leiter wie es hier heißt eines ekt-techn. Installationsbetrieb, – das war eine Gesellschaft mit rund 2000 Arbeitnehmer und die hatten eben die Stromversorgung der Linz und den Betrieb der Straßenbahn. Ich habe mich nie als Ingenieur ausgegeben weil ich keiner bin, aber ich habe Maschinenbaustudium betrieben, aber nicht bis zum Ende. Etwa um 1925 herum habe ich das Studium dann aufgegeben, und durch die allgemeine… (unverständl … mein alter Herr hatte sich eben pensionieren lassen und hatte eine Bergbaubetrieb bei Salzburg aufgemacht, am Nordabhang des Unterberg, und hatte im … eine Mühlenbauanstalt, und hatte sich in Salzburg mit 50 % beteiligt an einem Maschinenbaubetrieb, die in der Hauptsache die kleinen Lokomotiven anfertigte für Industriezwecke. Während sich der eine Teilhaber, wo mein Vater das Geld hineinsteckte, irgendwie vertan hat und sich danach an einem Strick aufgehängt hat, und die andere Sache, der Mählenbaubetrieb ist durch die allgemeine Wirtschaftslage von selbst kaputt gegangen, und ich baute in dem Bergbaubetrieb mit einem Steiger, den mein Vater angestellt hatte, da baute ich eine Schwelofenanlage um den dort gewonnen Ölschiefer durch fraktionierte Destilatione… in die einzele … zu zerlegen bei den verschied Temperaturen und es konnte theoretisch alles dort gemacht werden von Schwerprodukten bis zum Leichtbenzin und als Abfallprodukte, die Teerprodukte, und als die Bemühungen richtig im Gang war und nachdem mein alter Herr hier sehr viel Geld hineingesteckt hatte,

Draft translation

2 [HW: Band 62] [HW: 651] Curiously, the other side still seems to be operating in uncertainty as to which position you last held in the SS. And there is also talk about the files of the AA [Auswärtiges Amt / Foreign Office] Deutschland III, from which it can be gathered that the functions of the Jew-inquisitor were neither secret nor autographic. The latter is naturally not uninteresting. Through the discovery of his personal papers, which were located in the SS main office, the legends about Eichmann have already been substantially shaken. Rumors claim to know that he in the ..... likewise it is claimed to be known that Eichmann as a Jew returned after the war to Palast [Palestine?]. However prosaic the truth may be, these rumors will not fall silent.-- Then it further states here that you were originally in Elberfeld, then moved with the family to Linz, your father was head of an elect[rical]-technical installation business, and ----Eichmann grew up there in the most impoverished circumstances, --- took on the dialect there and had a great fondness for riding.-- He was supposed to follow his father in the profession and also received a corresponding training --that is why he is also designated as "Engineer" in his civil papers Never---- In 1925 he had to give up his technical studies-because his father was ruined by the inflation So far all is correct--- put briefly--- originally we came from West Germany, the AEG at that time, as far as I know, gave a rather large sum as a loan to the then Linz Tramway Electricity Company, and with this loan my old man [father] came to Linz in a sense as a man of confidence [trustee] of the AEG Union.--my old man had indeed at that time already been active in West Germany in the electricity companies in a leading position and so he became commercial director of the Linz Tramway [HW: and] Elect. Company--so not head as it says here of an el[e]ct-technical installation business,---- that was a company with around 2000 employees and they had precisely the electricity supply of Linz and the operation of the tramway. I never gave myself out as an engineer because I am not one, but I pursued mechanical-engineering studies, but not to the end. Around about 1925 I then gave up the studies, and through the general.. (unintelligible) .... my old man had just had himself pensioned off and had opened a mining operation near Salzburg, on the north slope of the Unterberg,.and had in the .. a mill-building establishment [millwright works], and had in Salzburg [DEL: xxxx] taken a 50% stake in a machine-building operation, which in the main manufactured the small locomotives for industrial purposes. While the one [DEL: xxxxxxxxxx] partner, into whom my father put the money, somehow squandered it and afterwards hanged himself on a rope, and the other matter, the mill-building operation, went to ruin of itself through the general economic situation, and I built up in the mining operation, with a foreman [Steiger, mine overseer] whom my father had employed, there I built a low-temperature-carbonization furnace plant [Schwelofen] to break down the oil shale obtained there by fractional distillation into the individual [ ] at the various temperatures and theoretically everything could be done there from heavy products down to light benzine and as waste products, the tar products, and when the efforts were properly under way and after my old man had put a great deal of money into this here,

…he then stopped in time, because, had he not done so, he would of course have been financially ruined. He closed the mining operation. He neither sold it nor gave it up; the taxes still had to be paid every six months, and nothing came of the whole mining business. Instead, my old man went back to his original field and, alongside the pension he drew, built up an electrical trading business—wholesale—which continues to this day, supplying electrical installers in Upper Austria and partly in Salzburg as well.

That is the truth, and so the author, who may have picked it up in passing or heard it, has once again produced a mixture of fiction and truth here.

Questioner reads aloud

In 1927 Eichmann became a representative of the … Oil. In 1931 his disappointment with life found an outlet in joining the National Party in Austria. In July 1933 he crossed the German border to be retrained for fourteen months in the Austrian Legion at Lechfeld near Passau. In 1934 non-commissioned officer Eichmann made the leap into an environment far more suitable for him: the Berlin headquarters of the Security Service. The Security Service first employed him on the Freemason card index.

He gained access to his office's archive, where he developed a great interest in Zionist files and acquired a superficial knowledge of Yiddish and Hebrew. It is assumed that Eichmann was sent to Palestine in 1934 to seek contact with the Arab insurgents, but the British authorities expelled him within 48 hours. People then suppose that Eichmann went to Cairo and there became acquainted with the Mufti of Jerusalem. At the time of his Palestine visit, Eichmann held the rank of company sergeant major (Hauptfeldwebel) in the SS, and in Vienna, which had not yet returned home to the Reich, he worked as an SS Gestapo informer.

Eichmann

Essentially, it is all correct. I was only two months in the Austrian Legion, though. As for my Palestine trip, it is all correct as far as it goes. But I made no contact at all with the Arab insurgents. That Dr. Reichert, through his 'Arab friends', those letters to me there—the matter has already been described—that came up incidentally. Nor did I meet or speak to the Grand Mufti down there. And I never worked as a Gestapo informer in Vienna either, because from my departure from Austria to my official posting to Vienna in the spring of 1938 I set foot on Austrian soil only once, and then only for a few meters. That was at the Swiss-Austrian border, at Lake Constance, when I was travelling back from Palestine, up through Italy to Berlin.

Questioner reads aloud

Eichmann's friendship with the Mufti dates from 1942 to 1944, when the Mufti lived in Berlin as the recognized plenipotentiary of the Arabs and was in the closest contact with Eichmann's office.

Eichmann

That, too, is a mixture of fiction and truth. Neither friendship nor enmity bound me to the Mufti. I saw the Mufti once at some dinner in the evening; we also spoke together. It was in some inn, I think at the Wannsee.

Open page image and German
Page 652 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 652 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Hat er dann rechtzeitig hier Schluß gemacht, denn wenn er das nicht getan hätte, dann wäre, er freilich finanziell ruiniert gewesen. – er hat den Bergbaubetrieb augeschlossen, er hat ihn weder verkauft, noch aufgegeben, die Steuern mußten immer alle halbe Jahr bezahlt werden, und es wurde nichts aus der ganzen Bergbaugeschichte, stattdessen ging mein alter Herr wieder zurück auf sein ursprüngliches Gebiet – und hat neben seiner Pension die er bezog noch bis zum heutigen Tage ein Elektro-Handelsgeschäft auf die Beine gestellt und zwar en gros, und beliefert die Ekekt. Installateure in Ober-Östreich und zT auch in Salzburg… – Das ist die Wahrheit und deshalb hat der Autor, der es vielleicht flüchtig aufgenommen hat oder gehört hat, auch hier wieder eine Mischung aus Dichtung und Wahrheit. – 1927 wurde Eichmann Vertreter der Oil. – 31 machte sich seine Enttäuschun… über das Leben darin Luft, daß er der Nat. Partei in Östreich beitrat. Im Juli 33 überschritt er die deutsche Grenze, um 14 Monate lang in der östr. Legion in Lechfeld bei Passau umgeschult zu werden. 1934 gelang dem Unteroff. Eichmann der Sprung in eine für ihn weit passendere Umgebung, nämlich das Berliner Hauptquartier des SD. Der SD beschäftigte ihn zunächst in der Freimaurerkartei, und er erhielt Zugang zu dem Archiv seiner Dienststelle wo er großes Interesse für zionistische Akten entwickelte, und sich oberflächliche Kenntnisse des jiid und heb. aneignete. Man nimmt an, daß Eichmann 34 nach Palast entsandt wurde um Verbindung zu den arabischen Aufständigen zu suchen, die brit. Behörden wiesen ihn aber innerhalb von 48 Stunden aus. Man meint denn, Eichmann habe sich nach Kairo begeben und dort den Mufti (?) von Jerusalem kennen gelernt. Zur Zeit seines Palast. Besuches stand Eichmann im Range eines Hauptfeldwebels der SS und betätigte sich in dem noch nicht ins Reich heimgekehrte Wien als SS Gestapo Spitzel. Im wesentlichen stimmt alles – ich war allerdings nur 2 Mon. in der östr. Legion gewesen, – bzgl meiner Palast. Fahrt stimmt auch alles soweit, – ich habe mit den arabischen Aufständen allerdings überhaupt keine Verbindung angeknüpft, daß der Dr. Reichert mir durch seine "arabischen "reunde" da mir diese Briefe, da Sache ist schon geschildert, – das fiel so am Rande mit ab, – ich habe auch den Großmufti da unten nicht getroffen und nicht gesprochen – und habe mich auch in Wien niemals als Gestapo Spitzel betätigt, weil ich ja überhaupt von meinem Abgang aus Östr. bis zu meiner dienstl. Kommandierung nach Wien im Frühjahr 1938 nur ein einziges Mal nur einige wenige Meter östr. Bodens betreten habe, und zwar war das so an der Schweizer-östr. Grenze, da am Bodensee, als ich zurückfuhr von Palast über Italien herauf nach Berlin. – Eichmanns Freundschaft mit dem Mufti ist aus den Jahren 42 bis 44 in denen der Mufti als anerkannter Bevollmächtigter der Araber in Berlin lebte und mit Eichmanns Büro in engster Verbindung stand. – Das ist auch wieder so eine Mischung aus Dichtung und Wahrheit. Mit dem Mufti verband mich weder eine Freundschaft, noch eine Feindschaft – den Mufti habe ich einmal gesehen bei irgendeinem Essen am Abend, man sprach auch zusammen, es war in irgend einem Gasthaus, ich glaube am Wannsee. –

Draft translation

3 Volume 62 [HW: 652] Did he then stop in time here, for if he had not done that, then he would of course have been financially ruined.-- he shut down the mining operation, he neither sold it nor gave it up, the taxes always had to be paid every half year, and nothing came of the whole mining business, instead my old man went back again to his original field- and alongside the pension that he drew he has, to this very day, set up an electrical trading business on its feet, and indeed wholesale, and supplies the elect[rical] installers in Upper Austria and in part also in Salzburg..-- That is the truth, and therefore the author, who perhaps took it up hastily or heard it, here again also [a] [DEL: [?mixture?]] [HW: mixture] of fiction and truth.-- [19]27 Eichmann became a representative of the Oil.-- [in] 31 his disappointment with life vented itself in that he joined the Nat[ional] Party in Austria. In July 33 he crossed the German border, in order to be retrained for 14 months long in the Austr[ian] Legion at Lechfeld near Passau. In 1934 the non-com[missioned] officer Eichmann succeeded in the leap into an environment far more suitable for him, namely the Berlin headquarters of the SD. The SD employed him at first in the [DEL: Er[illegible]] Freemasonry card-index, and he obtained access to the archive of his office where he developed great interest in Zionist files, and acquired superficial knowledge of Yidd[ish] and Heb[rew]. It is assumed that Eichmann was sent to Palest[ine] in [19]34 in order to seek connection with the Arab insurgents, but the Brit[ish] authorities expelled him within 48 hours. It is then thought that Eichmann betook himself to Cairo and there got to know the Mufti (?) of Jerusalem. At the time of his Palest[ine] visit Eichmann stood in the rank of a Hauptfeldwebel [master sergeant] of the SS and was active in Vienna, which had not yet returned home into the Reich, as an SS Gestapo informer. In essence everything is correct--- I had however been only 2 months in the Austr[ian] Legion,--regarding my Palest[ine] journey everything is also correct as far as it goes,---I did however not establish any connection at all with the Arab insurgents, that Dr. Reichert [gave] me through his "Arab friends" there [gave] me these letters, since [the] matter has already been described,-- that fell off there so on the side [incidentally],--- I also did not meet and did not speak with the Grand Mufti down there---- and also never was active in Vienna as a Gestapo informer, because from my departure from Austria until my official assignment to Vienna in the spring of 1938 I set foot on Austr[ian] soil only a single time [for] only a few meters, and indeed that was so at the Swiss-Austr[ian] border, there at Lake Constance, when I traveled back from Palest[ine] up via Italy to Berlin.-- Eichmann's friendship with the Mufti is from the years 42 to 44 in which the Mufti lived in Berlin as the recognized plenipotentiary of the Arabs and stood in closest connection with Eichmann's office.-- That is again also such a mixture of fiction and truth. With the Mufti neither a friendship nor an enmity bound me-- I saw the Mufti once at some dinner in the evening, one also spoke together, it was in some inn, I believe at the Wannsee.--

But I was then assigned the three Iraqi majors, and through that connection one can, of course, on a logical interpretation, speak of a friendship with the Grand Mufti.

Questioner

But were those three constantly in close contact with your office?

Eichmann

Yes, they had been seconded to me for information. They were perhaps eight to fourteen days in my office, learning there; that was all. They had access to everything, including the GRS. They spent a day or more with each desk officer, until they had worked their way through the whole lousy outfit. Naturally, they also went to other sections in the Reich Security Main Office. They were, so to speak, cobbled together in a crash course into experts for a Gestapo that might be set up in the Near East.

Questioner reads aloud

Eichmann's real career began on 1 August 1938, when the Jewish emigration office in Vienna was placed under him. The proposal to promote him to captain dates from 30 January 1939, and states that Eichmann directs all Jewish emigration.

Eichmann

That is all correct as far as it goes.

Questioner reads aloud

From Vienna Eichmann was transferred to Prague and later to Berlin, where on 30 January he took part in Heydrich's large conference concerning the resettlement of Jews and Poles.

Eichmann

I had nothing further to do with the Poles. The transports resettling the Poles were not taken to the concentration camps; they were taken into the cleared Polish territory. Those were the places—that was Krumey's work, clearing farms for the settlement of ethnic Germans. They came into the Warthegau, and the Poles had to give way; they had to make room.

Questioner reads aloud

For a few months Eichmann had under him not only the central offices for emigration but also the Gestapo's registration department for Jews. Both departments bore the designation IV A 4 b in the Reich Security Main Office.

Eichmann

It is IV B 4.

Questioner reads aloud

IV A 4 b was housed in the four-storey building at Kurfuerstenstrasse 116 and became the headquarters of the Final Solution in 1943 and 1944: the center of the enormous spider's web for deportation and extermination. In theory, however, it remained a very modest institution. Office IV means the Gestapo. Department A dealt with internal affairs, and 4 was a subsection responsible for investigating religious …. Department IV A 4 b dealt exclusively with Jewish matters and therefore stood on the same level as a hundred other obscure offices of the Reich Security Main Office, which concealed their activities as much as possible.

Eichmann

That is all nonsense, but it is interesting insofar as the author himself admits here that my section could not act independently,

Open page image and German
Page 653 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 653 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Aber ich bekam dann die drei irakischen Majore zugeteilt und über diesen Konex kann man natürlich in folgerichtiger Auslage sagen, von einer Freundschaft zum Großmufti Aber haben diese drei aeuernd in enger Verbindung mit Ihrem Büro gestanden? Ja, die waren zu mir ja abkommandiert zu Informationen. – Die waren vielleicht 8 bis 14 Tage in meinem Büro, die haben dort gelernt, das war alles. – Sie haben Zutritt gehabt zu allem, auch zu den GRS, bei jedem Sachbearbeiter sind sie so einen Tag oder mehr gewesen, bis sie so den ganzen Saftladen durchgemacht hatten. – Sie sind natürlich auch zu anderen Dezernaten gekommen im RSHA. Sie wurden gewissermaßen im Schnellverfahren z. Experten zu einer allfälligen im nahen Osten zu errichtenden Gestapo, umgeschustert. – Am 1. Aug. 1938 begann Eichmanns eigentliche Karriere, ihm wurde das jüd. Emigrationsbüro in Wien unterstellt. – Der Vorschlag ihn zum Hauptmann zu befördern stammt vom 30 Jan. 1939 und es heißt darin, Eichmann leitet die gesamte jüd. Auswanderung. Das stimmt alles soweit. – Von Wien wurde Eichmann nach Prag versetzt und später nach Berlin. Wo er am 30 Jan. an Heydrichs großer Konferenz teilnahm, die sich mit der Umsiedlung von Juden und Polen befaßte. Mit den Polen habe ich ja weiter nichts zu tun gehabt. – Die Transporte die die Polen umsiedelte, die wurden ja nicht zu den KL gebracht, sondern die wurden ja in das polnische freigemachte Gebiet gebracht, das waren ja die Stellen – das machte ja Gromeid, – die Freimachung von Höfen für die Ansiedlung von Volksdeutschen, die kamen in den Warthegau hinein und die Polen mußten weichen, die mußten Platz machen. – Wenige Monate unterstand Eichmann nicht nur die Zentralstellen für die Auswanderung sondern auch die Erfassungsabteilung für Juden bei der Gestapo. Beide Abteilungen waren unter Bezeichnung IV A 4 b des RSHA Heißt IV B 4 – IV A 4 b befand sich in dem vierstöckigen Gebäude in der Kurfürstenstraße 116 und wurde in den Jahre 1943/44 zum Hauptquartier der Endlösung. Zum Mittelpunkt des ungeheuren Spinnennetzes für Deportation und Ausrottung. Theoretisch blieb es jedoch eine sehr bescheidene Institution. Amt IV bedeutet Gestapo. Abteilung A befaßte sich mit interne Angelegenheiten und 4 war eine Unterabteilung der die Erforschung religiösen Kulte unterlag. Abteilung IV A 4 b befaßte sich ausschließlich mit jüd. Dingen, und stand damit auf gleicher Stufe mit 100 anderer eskurer Büros des RSHA, die ihre Tätigkeit tunlichst verschleierten. Das ist alles Quatsch, – aber es ist in insofern interessant weil der Autor hier selber zugibt, daß mein Dezernat nicht selbständig schalten und walten konnte,

Draft translation

Band 62 4 [HW: 653] But I was then assigned the three Iraqi majors, and via this connection one can of course say, in logically consistent laying-out, [DEL: [illegible]] of a friendship with the Grand Mufti But did these three stand in constant close connection with your office? Yes, they were seconded to me for information.--- They were perhaps 8 to 14 days in my office, they learned there, that was all.-- They had access to everything, also to the GRS, with every desk-officer they were like a day or more, until they had thus gone through the whole junk-shop.- They naturally also came to other departments in the RSHA. They were, so to speak, in a rush-procedure retooled into experts for a Gestapo to be established, if the case should arise, in the Near East.-- On 1 Aug. 1938 Eichmann's actual career began, the Jewish emigration office in Vienna was placed under him.- The proposal to promote him to Captain dates from 30 Jan. 1939 and it says therein, Eichmann directs the entire Jewish emigration. That is all correct as far as it goes.-- From Vienna Eichmann was transferred to Prague and later to Berlin. Where he on 30 Jan. took part in Heydrich's great conference, which dealt with the resettlement of Jews and Poles. With the Poles I had nothing further to do.----- The transports that resettled the Poles, those were not brought to the KL [concentration camps], but rather they were brought into the vacated Polish territory, those were the places------that was done by Gromeid,-- the vacating of farms for the settlement of ethnic Germans [Volksdeutsche], they came into the Warthegau and the Poles had to give way, they had to make room.-- For few months there was subordinate to Eichmann not only the central offices for emigration but also the registration department for Jews at the Gestapo. Both departments were under the designation IV A 4 b of the RSHA It's called IV B 4-- IV A 4 b was located in the four-storey building at Kurfürstenstrasse 116 and became in the years 1943/44 the headquarters of the Final Solution. The center point of the monstrous spider's web for deportation and extermination. Theoretically, however, it remained a very modest institution. Amt IV means Gestapo. Department A dealt with internal affairs and 4 was a sub-department that was subject to the investigation of religious coldness. Department IV A 4 b dealt exclusively with Jewish matters, and thereby stood on the same level as 100 other obscure offices of the RSHA, which concealed their activity as much as possible. That is all nonsense, --but it is interesting insofar as the author here himself admits that my department could not act and operate independently,

but that it was one of many sections of equal standing within a large central office.

Questioner reads aloud

Eichmann's fate had it that he never rose above the rank of Oberstbaf (Obersturmbannführer).

Eichmann

I cannot explain what the reason may have been. I once said to Mueller: the work one has to do now is so … and so unedifying that I say to myself I would not be able to look back with any great pride on having been promoted at precisely this time. We spoke about it once like that, and I do not know whether Mueller remembered it. Besides, Mueller could not simply promote me just like that. It would have led to a small palace revolution, because—as head of a central office I could well have been promoted; that would have depended on the rank held by my chief at the time, the commander.

But in Office IV, where a desk officer's established post is that of a government councillor or senior government councillor, and a department head's established post was that of a senior government councillor or ministerial councillor, a fellow holding such a post cannot, of course, be promoted beyond the corresponding military rank. That is impossible. For if I am a section head and my established post is that of a senior government councillor, or an Oberstbaf (Obersturmbannführer) post, then I am simply an Oberstbaf (Obersturmbannführer) and cannot become a Standartenf.

(Standartenführer). Only when he becomes a ministerial councillor—then, yes, he becomes a Standartenf. (Standartenführer). Now, I only became a department head at the end of 1944, so it no longer had any effect. Then I could, of course, have advanced to Standartenf. (Standartenführer), and in the last days people congratulated me from every side; even Günther congratulated me. But I never learned anything more definite, and admittedly I took no particular trouble to find out, because in April or March it was completely immaterial to me.

Furthermore, had Mueller promoted me in my capacity as section head, then immediately, among the other officials, the body of section heads—there were probably more than thirty—they would immediately have asked themselves how that came about, and so on. That simply is not possible within an authority. It would have been different had I been seconded to an entirely different field of duties.

Questioner reads aloud

This, his last promotion, took place on 29 October 1941, shortly after deportations from the Reich had resumed. Eichmann was by no means to be too much in the foreground in the bloodbath that followed. Only in March 1944 was he allowed to become a figure known throughout Budapest, and probably only because Kaltenbrunner supported him with Himmler. … published a picture of Eichmann, probably taken when he joined, that is, years ago (vor sehr Jahren), showing us a serious student's face. The strangely glittering eyes, however, have not changed and appear in all the photographs from his personnel papers of 1944.

Eichmann

That will be the personnel paper I mentioned earlier.

Open page image and German
Page 654 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 654 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

sondern daß es eine von vielen gleichgestellten Dezernaten war, innerhalb eines großen Zentralamtes. Eichmanns Schicksal wollte es, daß er nie über den Rang eines Oberstbaf hinaus kam Ich kann mir nicht erklären woran das gelegen haben mag. – Ich habe einmal zu Müller gesagt – diese Arbeit die man jetzt machen muß ist eine so [unleserlich] und wenig erbauliche, daß ich mir sage, ich würde gar nicht mit großem Stolz darauf zurück blicken können, gerade in dieser Zeit befördert zu werden. – So sprachen wir einmal darüber und ich weiß nicht, ob Müller sich diese Sache gemerkt hat – außerdem konnte mich Müller gar nicht so ohne weiteres befördern, das hätte zu einer kleinen Palastrevolution geführt, denn – als Leiter einer Zentralstelle hätte ich wohl befördert werden können, – da wäre es auf den Rang angekommen, den mein jeweiliger Chef, der Befehlshaber eingenommen hätte – aber im Amt IV, wo die Planstelle eines Referenten, die Stelle eines Reg Rates oder Obereg Rates ist, und die Stelle eines Abteilungsleiters die Stelle planmäßig eines Oberreg Rates bzw. Ministerialrates war, kann natürlich so ein Knopf der eine solche Stelle hat, nicht über den passenden militärischen Rang hinaus befördert werden, das geht nicht. – Denn wenn ich heute Dezernent bin und ich hier nach der Planstelle Obereg Rat bin, bzw. Oberstbafstelle, dann bin ich eben nur Oberstbaf und kann nicht Standartenf werden, nur wenn er eben Ministerialrat wird, dann ja, dann wird er Standartenf. Nun bin ich Abteilungsleiter erst Ende 44 geworden, es wirkte sich also gar nicht mehr aus, da hätte ich selbverst. zum Standartenf. avancieren können und man hat mir auch von allen Seiten in den letzten Tagen gratuliert, selbst Günter hat mir gratuliert, aber ich habe nie etwas näheres erfahren, habe mir allerdings auch keine sonderliche Mühe gegeben etwas zu erfahren, weil mir das im April oder im März völlig egal gewesen ist. – Und weiteres, wenn ich von Müller in meiner Eigenschaft als Dezernent befördert worden wäre, dann hätte das sofort innerhalb der anderen Beamtenschaft, in der Dezernentschaft, es waren wohl mehr wie 30, die hätten dann sofort sich gefragt, wieso kommt das usw… Das geht eben nicht innerhalb einer Behörde, anders wäre es gewesen, wenn ich abkommandiert worden wäre mit einem ganz anderen Aufgabengebiet. Diese, seine letzte Beförderung erfolgte am 29. Okt 1941. – Kurz nachdem die Deportationen aus dem Reich wieder aufgelebt waren. Bei dem folgenden Blutbad sollte Eichmann keineswegs zu sehr im Vordergrund stehen. Erst im März 44 durfte er sich in Budapest erlauben zur stadtbekannten Persönlichkeit zu erden. Und dies wahrscheinlich auch nur weil Kaltenbrunner ihn Himmler gegenüber unterstützte. … veröffentlichte ein Bild Eichmanns, wahrscheinlich wurde es bei seinem Eintritt, also vor sehr Jahren aufgenommen, das uns ein ernstes Studentengesicht zeigt. Die seltsam glitzernden Augen haben sich allerdings nicht verändert. und finden sich auf allen Bildern aus seinen Personalpapieren aus dem Jahre 1944. Das wird das Personalpapier sein, das ich schon erwähnte

Draft translation

5 Band 62 [HW: 65] but rather that it was one of many equally-ranked sub-departments [Dezernate], within a large central office. Eichmann's fate had it that he never rose beyond the rank of an Oberstbaf [Obersturmbannführer] I cannot explain to myself what the reason for this may have been.--- I once said to Mueller--- this work that one now has to do is such a [?ill-favoured/distasteful?] and so little edifying [one], that I say to myself, I would not be able to look back on it with great pride, to be promoted precisely in this period.--- Thus we once spoke about it and I do not know whether Mueller took note of this matter------ besides, Mueller could not just simply promote me, that would have led to a small palace revolution, for ------ as leader of a central office [Zentralstelle] I could probably have been promoted,--- there it would have depended on the rank that my respective chief, the commander, would have held---but in Amt IV [Office IV], where the established post [Planstelle] of a referent [Referent, department officer] is the post of a Reg[ierungs] Rat [Government Councillor] or Obereg[ierungs] Rat [Senior Government Councillor], and the post of a division leader [Abteilungsleiter] was by establishment the post of a Oberreg[ierungs] Rat respectively Ministerialrat [Ministerial Councillor], naturally such a fellow [Knopf] who has such a post cannot be promoted beyond the fitting military rank, that is not possible.--- For if I today am a Dezernent [department head] and I am here by the established post an Obereg Rat, respectively Oberstbaf post, then I am just only Oberstbaf and cannot become Standartenf[ührer], only when he becomes Ministerialrat, then yes, then he becomes Standartenf[ührer]. Now I only became division leader [Abteilungsleiter] at the end of '44, so it did not take effect any more, there I could of course have advanced to Standartenf[ührer] and I was also congratulated from all sides in the last days, even Guenter congratulated me, but I never learned anything more precise, though I also took no particular trouble to learn anything, because in April or in March it was completely indifferent to me. - And further, if I had been promoted by Mueller in my capacity as Dezernent, then that would immediately within the other officialdom, in the body of Dezernenten, there were probably more than 30, they would then immediately have asked themselves, how does that come about etc...... That just is not possible within an authority [Behörde], it would have been otherwise if I had been detached [abkommandiert] with a wholly different field of tasks. This, his last promotion took place on 29 Oct 1941.--- Shortly after the deportations from the Reich had revived again. In the following bloodbath Eichmann was by no means to stand too much in the foreground. Only in March '44 was he permitted to allow himself in Budapest to become a personality known throughout the city. And this probably also only because Kaltenbrunner supported him vis-à-vis Himmler. ... published a picture of Eichmann, probably it was taken at his entry, that is many years ago, which shows us an earnest student's face. The strangely glittering eyes, however, have not changed. and are found on all pictures from his personnel papers from the year 1944. That will be the personnel paper that I already mentioned

Questioner reads aloud

Although Eichmann became the Grand Inquisitor only because his schoolmates, and later his colleagues, teased him about his Jewish appearance. A psychologist would also find it interesting that Eichmann always volunteered the explanation that he had no sports badge because a hand injury prevented him from taking part in sport.

That is not true at all. I was never a sports fanatic, admittedly, but I do have the SA sports badge.

Questioner reads aloud

Eichmann's career can really be described as that of a minor official who threw himself eagerly into every task without ever receiving thanks or recognition.

Eichmann

That hits the nail on the head. A small section head is simply a minor official. In the eyes of a criminal-police secretary it may have been a high position, but for the other side, for my higher superiors, I was simply a minor official. In that respect the man is right.

Questioner reads aloud

He was married to an ordinary little woman who bore him three daughters. As he told Wi in the spring of 1945, this family was to die with him if he ever had to commit suicide.

Eichmann

I do not know whether I spoke about that. Possibly.

Questioner reads aloud

A few days before the capitulation Wi saw his friend for the last time. It was at Alt Aussee in the Salzkammergut, the last headquarters of Kaltenbrunner and the Reich Security Main Office. On that occasion Eichmann confessed to his friend Wi that he had obtained false passports for his family, while he himself intended to remain hidden in the mountains until the inevitable conflict between East and West came one day.

Eichmann

On that I must say: not only did I obtain no passports for my family, I also burned all the papers, so that my family had the greatest difficulty obtaining any papers at all at the time. And this going into the mountains did actually happen, with the idea of waiting until the conflict came.

Questioner

Did you see Wi in those days?

Eichmann

It is possible that he was at Alt Aussee; I cannot remember it. I cannot remember Wi at all. As I recall, I last saw Wi in Berlin. Now, of course, I begin to have doubts.

Questioner reads aloud

More than seven years have passed since then, and Eichmann's body has remained undiscovered. We do not know whether he made good his boast that he would bite the dust laughing, that the knowledge of having millions of people on his conscience gave him extraordinary satisfaction.

Eichmann

That says something quite different. There was never any talk of 'biting the dust'. And the knowledge of having millions of people on my conscience—then I would have some…

Open page image and German
Page 655 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 655 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Obwohl Eichmann, nur deswegen zum Großinquisitor wurde, weil einst seine Mitschüler und später die Kollegen ihn mit seinem jüd. Aussehen aufzogen. Für einen Psychologen wäre es auch interessant weil Eichmann stets freiwillig erklär… er besäße deshalb kein Sportabzeichen weil er auf Grund einer Handverletzung keinen Sport treiben könnte. – Das stimmt gar nicht, ich bin zwar nie ein Sportfanatiker gewesen, aber ich habe das SA Sportabzeichen Eigentlich kann man die Laufbahn Eichmanns als die eines kleinen Beamten bezeichne… der ohne je Dank oder Anerkennung zu ernten, sich eifrigst in jede Arbeit hineinkniete Das ist den Nagel auf den Kopf getroffen. Ein kleiner Dezernent ist nun mal ein kleiner Beamter, in den Augen eines Kriminalsekr. mag es eine hohe Stellung gewesen, aber für die Gegenseite für meine höheren Vorgesetzten war ich nun mal nur ein kleiner Beamter. – Insofern hat der Mann schon recht. – Er war mit einer gewöhnlichen kleinen Frau verheiratet die ihm 3 Töchter schenkte. – Wie er Wi im Frühjahr 1945 mitteilte, sollte diese Familie mit ihm sterben, wenn er einmal Selbstmord verüben müßte Ich weiß nicht ob ich darüber gesprochen habe – möglich Ein paar Tage vor der Kapitulation sah Wi seinen Freund zum letzten Mal, es war in Alt Aussee im Salzkammergut, das letzte Hauptquartier von Kaltenbrunner und des RSHA. Bei dieser Gelegenheit gestand Eichmann seinem Freund Wi er habe seiner Familie falsche Pässe verschafft, während er sich selbst in den Bergen versteckt halten wollte, bis es eines Tages zum unvermeidlichen Konflikt zwischen Ost und West kommen sollte. Dazu ist zu sagen, ich habe meiner Familie nicht nur keine Pässe besorgt, sonder… ich habe darüber hinaus sämtl. Papiere verbrannt, sodaß meine Familie größte Schwierigkeiten hatte, überhaupt Papiere zu bekommen damals. Und dieses in die Berge hinein gehen, ist tatsächlich geschehen unter dem Blickwinkel – warten bis der Konflikt kommt. – Haben Sie denn Wi noch gesehen in diesen Tagen? Es ist möglich daß er in Alt Aussee war, ich kann mich dessen nicht entsinnen. An Wi kann ich mich gar nicht entsinnen. Nach meiner Meinung habe ich Wi zum letzt… Mal in Berlin gesehen. – Jetzt kommen mir natürlich Zweifel. – Seit dem sind mehr als 7 Jahre vergangen und Eichmanns Leiche blieb unentdeckt. Wir wissen nicht ob er seine Prahlerei er würde lachend ins Gras beißen mit dem Bewußtsein Mill Menschen auf dem Gewissen zu haben, verschaffe ihm eine außerordentliche Befriedigung, wahr gemacht hat. – Da heißt es schon ganz anders – von Gras beißen, ist nie die Rede gewesen, und das Bewußtsein Mill Menschen auf dem Gewissen zu haben, da hätte ich ja etw…

Draft translation

6 Volume 62 [HW: 655] Although Eichmann became the Grand Inquisitor only because his fellow pupils once, and later his colleagues, teased him about his Jew[ish] appearance. For a psychologist it would also be interesting because Eichmann always voluntarily declar[ed] he possessed no sports badge because on account of a hand injury he could not do any sport.- That is not true at all, I was indeed never a sports fanatic, but I do have the SA Sports Badge Actually one can describe Eichmann's career as that of a minor official who, without ever reaping thanks or recognition, most eagerly buried himself in every piece of work That has hit the nail on the head. A minor Dezernent is after all a minor official; in the eyes of a Kriminalsekr[etär] it may have been a high position, but for the opposing side, for my higher superiors, I was after all only a minor official.---- In that respect the man is quite right.---- He was married to an ordinary little woman who presented him with 3 daughters.----- As he informed Wi in the spring [TS INS: [illegible]] 1945, this family was to die with him, if he should ever have to commit suicide I do not know whether I have spoken about this------ possible A few days before the capitulation Wi saw his friend for the last time, it was in Alt Aussee in the Salzkammergut, the last headquarters of Kaltenbrunner and of the RSHA. On this occasion Eichmann confessed to his friend Wi that he had procured false passports for his family, while he himself wanted to keep himself hidden in the mountains, until one day the inevitable conflict between East and West should come. To this it is to be said, I not only procured no passports for my family, but rather I moreover burned all papers, so that my family had the greatest difficulties even getting papers at all back then. And this going into the mountains actually happened under the perspective----wait until the conflict comes.---- Did you actually still see Wi in these days? It is possible that he was in Alt Aussee, I cannot recall it. Of Wi I cannot recall at all. In my opinion I saw Wi for the last time in Berlin.-- Now of course doubts come to me.---- Since then more than 7 years have passed and Eichmann's corpse remained undiscovered. We do not know whether he made true his boasting that he would laughing bite the grass [i.e. die] with the consciousness of having mill[ion] people on his conscience, [that this] would afford him an extraordinary satisfaction.---- There it reads quite differently--- of "[g]ras biting, there was never any talk, and the consciousness of having mill[ion] people on my conscience, there I would indeed [have] someth[ing]

…admitted, then it would be a criminal matter; I would have as good as admitted guilt. I cannot have said that. I would have slapped myself in the face, saying it in front of my subordinates. And as for satisfaction—when I first heard that, it was while I was still in a prison camp. There, already out of anger about it, I first corrected that business about five million Jews and so on. At that time I still had really fresh contact with everything that had happened, and since then I have held on to this matter in my memory, because it was a central point in my entire thinking.

Questioner reads aloud

In any case it was an exaggeration, because the murders he directly instigated do not even amount to a million. Connecting him directly with the mass murders in Poland and Russia does seem somewhat far-fetched.

Eichmann

In itself it makes no difference whether I kill one million or five million; in truth I have not killed a single one. Now this Jew here already goes from one million to one million. Let us allow it for the sake of argument. That would mean that I transported only one million Jews altogether. If I myself admit that it may have been around 300,000 in Hungary, then it would have been only 700,000 in all the other territories combined.

Questioner

But he does not say 'transported'; he says 'directly instigated murders'. That is, you do not even reach a million with those cases where Eichmann said: kill them here, kill them there.

Eichmann

I never did that at all. That was not my task.

Questioner

What do you make of this?

Eichmann

Had he said 'directly instigated transports'—

Questioner

That is what he means.

No, he probably means that, apart from the transports, what happened directly, or was instigated directly, amounted to only one million.

Eichmann

But I only transported. I never had anything to do with anything else.

Questioner

That is why this gives us no starting point. It gives us a starting point only insofar as we can say there are 36 versions concerning these five or six million.

Eichmann

But it could surely be proved that I did nothing else.

Questioner

Is it true that Wi recommended Eichmann for his first appearance?

Eichmann

What does he mean by that? Promotion? In September 1937 Wi was my superior when I went to Palestine. I was a Hauptscharführer then and became an Unterstuf. (Untersturmführer) in January 1938, and in January 1939 Wi no longer had any say. Perhaps he means my first substantive appearance, when I spoke at Bernau. Wi was my superior then…

Open page image and German
Page 656 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 656 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

zugegeben, dann wäre es ja eine kriminelle Angelegenheit, da hätte ich ja eine Schuld quasi eingestanden – Das kann ich gar nicht gesagt haben, ich hätte mir ja wie ich das gesagt habe im Beisein meiner Untergegebenen selbst eine ins Gesicht gehauen. Und von wegen Befriedigung – als ich daß zum ersten Mal hörte, daß war noch in der Zeit wo ich in einem Gefangenenlager gewesen bin, da habe ich zum ersten Mal schon aus Zorn darüber von wegen 5 Mill Juden ect, richtiggestellt, da hatte ich noch so richtig frischen Kontakt gehabt zu diesem ganzen Geschehen und da seit dieser Zeit habe ich mir diese Sache in meinem Gedächtnis festgehalten, weil es ja ein Kardinalpunkt war in meinem ganzen Denken. – Auf jeden Fall war es eine Übertreibung, denn die von ihm unmittelbar veranlaßten Morde verlaufen sich nicht einmal auf eine Mill. Ihn mit den Massenmorde in Polen und Rußland direkt in Verbindung zu bringen, scheint doch etwas abwegig. An sich ist es ja egal ob ich nun 1 Mill oder 5 Mill töte, ich habe in Wahrheit nicht einen einzigen getötet. Nun dieser Jude hier kommt nun schon von 1 Mill auf 1 Mill, wollen wir es einmal theoretisch gelten lassen. – dann hieße das, daß ich überhaupt nur eine Mill Juden transportiert hätte, – wenn ich selbst zugebe, daß es in Ungarn rund 300 000 gewesen sein können, dann wären es ja in den gesamten übrigen Gebieten nur 700 000 gewesen. Er sagt aber nicht transportiert – er sagt unmittelbar veranlaßte Morde – d.h. also daß Sie noch nicht einmal auf eine Mill kommen mit denjenigen Fällen wo Eichmann gesagt hat; hier umlegen – da umägen – Das habe ich ja gar nie gemacht, das war ja gar nicht meine Aufgabe gewesen – Was lesen Sie aus dieser Sache? Hätte er gesagt, unmittelbar veranlaßte Transporte – Das meint er ja auch… Nein, er meint wohl, daß außer den Transporten, das unmittelbar geschehene, bzw. veranlaßte nur 1 Mill betrug – Aber ich habe ja nur transportiert, ich habe ja nie mit etwas anderem zu tun gehabt. Darum ist das ja für uns kein Ausgangspunkt. es ist nur insofern ein Ausgangspunkt, daß wir sagen können es gibt 36 Versionen bzgl dieser 5 od 6 Mill. – Aber es ließe sich doch beweisen, daß ich gar nichts anderes getan habe. Stimmt das, daß Wi Eichmann für seinen ersten Auftritt empfahl? Was meint er damit? Bzgl. Beförderung? Im Sept 1937 war Wi mein Vorgesetzter als ich nach Palast. fuhr – da war ich Hauptscharführer und wurde dann im Jan 38 Unterstuf. und im Jan 39 hatte Wi nichts mehr zu sagen gehabt. Vielleicht er damit mein erstes sachliches Auftreten, als ich in Bernau gesprochen habe… Da war Wi mein Vorgesetzter, …

Draft translation

7 Band 62 [HW: 656] admitted, then it would indeed be a criminal matter, then I would quasi have confessed a guilt--- I cannot have said that at all, I would, the way I have said it in the presence of my subordinates, have hit myself right in the face. And as for satisfaction----- when I heard that for the first time, that was still in the time when I was in a prisoner camp, there I already for the first time out of anger about it regarding 5 mill. Jews etc.," corrected [it], there I still had had such a really fresh contact with this whole happening and there since that time I have retained this matter in my memory, because it was indeed a cardinal point in my entire thinking.---- In any case it was an exaggeration, for the murders directly instigated by him do not even run up to one mill. To bring him into direct connection with the mass murders in Poland and Russia seems somewhat off-track after all. In itself it is indeed all the same whether I now kill 1 mill or 5 mill, in truth I have not killed a single one. Now this Jew here now already comes down from 1 mill to 1 mill, let us for once let it hold theoretically.-- then that would mean that I would have transported altogether only one mill Jews, --- if I myself admit that in Hungary it can have been around 300 000, then it would indeed in all the remaining territories have been only 700 000. But he does not say transported---he says directly instigated murders--i.e. thus that you do not even come to one mill with those cases where Eichmann said; here bump off--there bump off--- That I indeed never did at all, that was indeed not at all my task--- What do you read out of this matter? Had he said, directly instigated transports----- That is indeed what he means too... No, he probably means that apart from the transports, what happened directly, respectively was instigated, only amounted to 1 mill--- But I have indeed only transported, I have indeed never had to do with anything else. That is why this is indeed no starting point for us. it is only insofar a starting point that we can say there are 36 versions regarding these 5 or 6 mill.--- But it could surely be proven that I did nothing else at all. Is it correct that Wi recommended Eichmann for his first appearance? What does he mean by that? Regarding promotion? In Sept 1937 Wi was my superior when I went to Palest.----there I was Hauptscharführer and then became in Jan 38 Unterstuf. and in Jan 39 Wi no longer had anything to say. Perhaps he [means] by that my first substantive appearance, when I spoke in Bernau.... There Wi was my superior, ...

Questioner reads aloud

At the end of 1939, nine and a half million Jews lived in Europe. In 1945 only three and a half million had survived.

That is right so far.

Questioner reads aloud

Ninety percent of the Jews in Lithuania lost their lives. Sixty-six percent of the Jews in Austria.

Eichmann

That is not right. In Austria almost all of them emigrated. There were probably only 202,000 or 302,000 there, and 100,000 of them emigrated in one year.

Questioner reads aloud

Sixty percent of the Jews in Holland. Eighty-five percent of the Jews in Poland—that is, three million Jews killed in Poland.

Eichmann

Yes, but the responsible governor corrects himself and lowers the figure from three and a half million to two million Jews.

Questioner reads aloud

Eighty-two and a half percent in Czechoslovakia.

Eichmann

Where are emigration and the natural decrease over twelve years taken into account here?

Questioner reads aloud

Eighty-nine percent of the Jews in Latvia. Eighty-one percent of the Jews in Germany.

Eichmann

Where have the emigrants gone here? Well over 200,000 emigrated, and how many are still there today?

Questioner reads aloud

Eighty percent of the Jews in Greece. Seventy-three point three percent of the Jews in Yugoslavia. In 1939, 17,840 Jews lived in Ki., Poland; 243 survived.

Eichmann

And the ones who cleared out from there, who moved away…?

Questioner reads aloud

352,559 Jews in Warsaw; 6,000 survived. 11,560 in Leipzig; fifteen survived.

Eichmann

Strange, and yet they arrive at 24,000 Jews in the Old Reich (Altreich).

Questioner reads aloud

One third of the Jews of Europe remained alive, but the roots are destroyed. In England and the neutral countries, the relatively few Jewish communities remained intact. France, Belgium and Italy suffered just as much under the yoke of Nazi rule as Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania. In these countries Jewry suffered terribly. But above all in Poland and the German-occupied part of the Soviet Union, the Baltic states, Yugoslavia, Greece, Czechoslovakia, Holland and Austria, the extermination of the Jews reached its peak, just as it did in Germany itself.

Families and communities, the two primary institutions in the life of every people, and of particular importance to the Jewish people, which is not rooted in the soil, are completely destroyed. Other races also had to pay their tribute to the war: their sons fell on the battlefields. Even in Yugoslavia, national and communal life was not completely destroyed; among the Jews, however, ninety percent of the dead are civilians.

Open page image and German
Page 657 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 657 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Ende 1939 lebten 91/2 Mill Juden in Europa – 1945 haben nur 31/2 Mill überlebt. Das stimmt soweit – Es kamen ums Leben 90% der Juden in Litauen 66% der Juden in Östreich Das stimmt nicht, in Östr sind sie ja fast alle ausgewandert. Es gab dort wohl nur 202 000 oder 302 000, davon sind ja 100 000 in einem Jahr ausgewandert 60 % der Juden in Holland 85% der Juden in Polen – d.h 3 Mill Juden in Polen umgebracht Ja, aber der zuständige Gov. korrigiert sich ja und setzt die Zahl von 31/2 mill auf 2 Mill Judenrunter. – 82 1/2 % in der Czechoslowakei Wo bleibt hier die Auswanderung und die natürliche Verminderung in 12 Jahren.? 89% der Juden in Lettland 81 % der Juden in Deutschland Wo sind hier die Ausgewanderten geblieben es sind weit über 200 000 ausgewandert und wieviel sind heute noch dort? 80 % der Juden in Griechenland 73,3 % der Juden in Jugoslawien 1939 lebten 17840 Juden in Ki. Polen, 243 überlebten. Und die, die von dort abgehauen sind, die verzogen sind…? 352559 Juden in Warschau, 6000 überlebten 11 560 in Leipzig, – 15 überlebten Merkwürdig und trotzdem kommen sie auf 24 000 Juden im Altreich Ein Drittel der Juden Europas blieb am Leben, doch die Wurzeln sind vernichtet In England und in den neutralen Ländern blieben die verhältnismäßig wenigen jüd Gemeinden intakt Frankreich, Belgien und Italien litten aber genau so unter dem Joch der Naziherrschaft, wie Ungarn, Bulgarien und Rumänien. In diesen Ländern litt das Judentum entsetzlich, doch vor allem in Polen und in dem von den Deutschen besetzten Teil der Sowjet Union, altischen Staaten, Jugoslawien, Griechenland, Czechoslowakei, Holland und Östreich erreichte die Ausrottung der Juden also ihren Höhepunkt, genauso einen Höhepunkt wie in Deutschland selber Familien und Gemeinden die beiden primären Institutionen im Leben jedes Volkes für das nicht bodenständige jüd Volk von besonderer Wichtigkeit, sind vollkommen vernichtet. Auch andere Rassen mußten dem Krieg ihren Tribut entrichten, es fielen ihre Söhne auf den Schlachtfeldern. Selbst in Jugoslawien wurde das nationale und Gemeinschaftsleben nicht vollständig zerstört, bei den Juden jedoch handelt es sich bei 90 % der Toten um Zi-il-.sten.

Draft translation

8 Volume 62 [HW: 65] At the end of 1939 there lived 9 1/2 million Jews in Europe-- 1945 only 3 1/2 million survived. That is correct so far----- There perished 90% of the Jews in Lithuania 66% of the Jews in Austria That is not correct, in Austria they nearly all emigrated. There were probably only 202,000 or 302,000 there, of whom indeed 100,000 emigrated in one year 60% of the Jews in Holland 85% of the Jews in Poland-----i.e. 3 million Jews killed in Poland Yes, but the responsible Gov[ernor] corrects himself and sets the figure of 3 1/2 million down to 2 million Jews.--- 82 1/2% in Czechoslovakia Where here is the emigration and the natural decrease over 12 years? 89% of the Jews in Latvia 81% of the Jews in Germany Where here have the emigrated ones gone, it is far over 200,000 who emigrated and how many are still there today? 80% of the Jews in Greece 73.3% of the Jews in Yugoslavia 19[TS INS: 39]22 there lived 17,840 Jews in Ki. Poland, 243 survived. And those who cleared out from there, who moved away...? 352,559 Jews in Warsaw, 6,000 survived 11,560 in Leipzig,---15 survived Strange and nevertheless they arrive at 24,000 Jews in the Altreich [Old Reich] One third of the Jews of Europe remained alive, but the roots are destroyed In England and in the neutral countries the comparatively few Jewish communities remained intact. France, Belgium and Italy however suffered just as much under the yoke of the Nazi rule, as Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania. In these countries Jewry suffered terribly, but above all in Poland and in the [DEL: [?district?]] part of the Soviet Union occupied by the Germans, [B]altic states, Yugoslavia, Greece, Czechoslovakia, Holland and Austria the extermination of the Jews thus reached its peak, just as much a peak as in Germany itself Families and communities the two primary institutions in the life of every people for the non-native [non-rooted] Jewish people of particular importance, are com- pletely destroyed. Other races too had to pay their tribute to the war, their sons fell on the battlefields. Even in Yugoslavia the national and communal life was not completely destroyed, with the Jews however it is a matter with 90% of the dead of civilians.

Questioner reads aloud

The difference between the losses of the Jews and those of the other peoples is even more drastic. There are practically no Jewish children under ten left in Europe. An entire generation has been lost to the development of Jewish life. The almost complete extermination of Jewry in Eastern Europe has almost entirely exhausted the rich reservoir of the Jewish people's life. These elements were of considerable value precisely because they were biologically the most fertile and culturally the least assimilated. More than 75 percent of all those who perished came from Eastern or Central Europe.

Eichmann reads from a report on Jewish wartime losses

Those 75 percent are, of course, interesting for us, because the remaining 25 percent are only one and a half million Jews killed, according to the report, from Austria, Holland, Germany, France and Belgium. There is nothing in here at all about France and Belgium, though.

Here, for example, it is stated that the mass deportations to the gas chambers of Meidanek and Auschwits finally reached a peak in the summer of 1942. We saw earlier, in another statement, that the gas chambers were not yet ready in the summer of 1942.

Then it is pointed out here that more than 50,000 Jews died in Warsaw in the early period of the occupation through the cramming of Jews into the Warsaw ghetto.

Questioner reads aloud

Six million Jews out of the total nine and a half million living in Europe at the end of 1939 died of deprivation and disease or were killed. The number of Jews who lost their lives during the war is therefore 22 times greater than the number of Americans alone, 273,830, who fell on the battlefields; seventeen times greater than the number of English soldiers and civilians, 335,506, who died during the war. The enormous dimensions of the Jewish catastrophe become all the clearer when Jewish war losses are compared with those of other peoples. Jews of Europe: 63 percent—six million out of 9,500,000.

Russians: 11.4 percent—twenty million out of 175 million. Yugoslavia: eleven percent—1,760,000 out of fifteen million. Germans, including Austrians and Sudeten Germans: nine percent—seven million out of 78 million. Poles: 8.3 percent—two million out of 24 million. England: 0.7 percent—335,506 out of 45 million. Americans: 0.12 percent—273,830 out of 140 million. The Jewish losses are those of European Jewry. Jews who fell as members of Allied armies appear in the figures for the respective countries. The peoples hit hardest and those who suffered least were chosen for the above table.

The Jewish people stands at the top in its losses, in any case, for they are still five times greater than those of the Yugoslavs, about a ninth of whom lost their lives. Compared with the Russians, the Jews lost six times as many people, and compared with the Poles three times as many, although the Russians, Poles and Yugoslavs are regarded as the peoples who had to bleed most in the last world war. Compared with the British, the Jews lost ninety times as many, and compared with the Americans as many as 525 times. The calculation is based on the Jewish population of 1939. Had 1933 been taken as the basis in Germany and 1938 as the basis in Austria, the percentages would have been considerably lower.

Open page image and German
Page 658 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 658 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

zwischen den Verlusten Der Unterschied der Juden zu den der anderen Völker ist doch noch einschneidender in Europa gibt es praktisch keine jüd. Kinder unter 10 Jahren mehr. Eine ganze Generation ist der Lebensentwicklung des jüd. Volkes verloren gegangen. Durch die fast vollständige Ausrottung des Judentums in Osteuropa wurde das reiche Reservoir des Lebenselementes des jüd Volkes fast vollkommen erschöpft. Diese Elemente gerade waren von beachtlichen Wert, da sie biologisch am fruchtbaren und kulturell die am wenigsten assimilierten darstellten. Mehr als 75 % aller umgekommenen stammt aus Ost oder Zentraleuropa. – Diese 75% sind natürlich interessant für uns, denn die übrig gebliebenen 25 % sind nur 11/2 Mill getötete Juden aus dem Bericht aus Östreich, Holland Deutschland, Frankreich, Belgien, – von Frankreich, Belgien steht allerdings gar nichts her drin. – Hier wird nun zB festgestellt, daß endlich im Sommer 1942 in den Massendeportati… zu den Gaskammern von Meidanek und Auschwits einen Gipfelpunkt erreicht wurde. Wir haben ja vorher gesehen bei einer anderen Erklärung daß die Gaskammern noch nicht bereit gestellt waren, im Sommer 1942. Dann wird hier darauf hingewiesen, daß durch das Hineinpferchen von Juden in das Ghetto in Warschau in der ersten Zeit der Besetzung mehr als 50 000 Juden in Warschau starben. – 6 Mill Juden von den insgesamt 91/2 Mill Juden die Ende 1939 in Europa lebten sind an Entbehrung und Krankheit zu Grunde gegangen oder umgebracht worden. Die Zahl der Juden die während des Krieges ihr Leben lassen mußten ist also 22 mal größer als nur die der Amerikaner 273 830, die auf den Schlachtfeldern fielen. 17 mal größer als die der englischen Soldaten und Zivilisten 335506, die im Laufe des Krieges um Leben kamen. Die ungeheuren Ausmaße der jüd. Katastrophe werden erst recht ersichtlich wenn man die Kriegsverluste der Juden mit denen der anderen Völker vergleicht. Juden Europas 63 % – 6 Mill von 9 Mill 500 000 Russen 11, 4 % – 20 Mill von 175 Mill Jugoslawien 11 % – 1 Mill 760 000 – 15 Mill Deutsche inclusive Östr. und Sudetendeutsche 9 % – 7 Mill von 78 Mill Polen 8, 3 % – 2 Mill von 24 Mill England 0, 7 % – 335 506 von 45 Mill Amerikaner 0, 12 % – 273 830 von 140 Mill Die jüd Verluste sind die des europäischen Judentums. Juden die als Angeh. allii Armeen gefallen sind erscheinen in den Zahlen der betr. Länder. für die obige Aufstellung wurden die am schwersten getr. Völker und diejenigen die am wenigsten litten gewählt. Das jüd. Volk steht jedenfalls an der Spitze mit seinen Verlusten, denn diese sind noch 5 mal größer als die der Jugoslawen, von denen ungefähr ein neuntel ums Leben kamen. Verglichen mit den Russen verloren die Juden 6 mal und mit den Polen 3 mal mehr Menschen, obwohl Russen, Polen, Jugoslawen als diejenigen Völker angesehen werden, die im letzten Weltkrieg am meisten bluten mußten. Verglichen mit den Briten haben die Juden 90 mal mehr, und mit den Amerikanern gar 525 mal mehr. zur Berechnung wird zu Grunde gelegt der Stand der jüd. Bevölkerung von 1939. Würde man 33 als Basis der Berechnung in Deutschland und 38 als Basis in Östr. genommen haben, wären die % bedeutend geringer. –

Draft translation

Band 62 Questions the losses The difference of the Jews compared to those of the other peoples is indeed still more drastic. In Europe there are practically no more Jew[ish] children under 10 years of age. An entire generation has been lost to the life-development of the Jew[ish] people. Through the almost complete extermination of Jewry in Eastern Europe the rich reservoir of the life-element of the Jew[ish] people was almost completely exhausted. These elements precisely were of considerable value, since they biologically represented the most fertile and culturally the least assimilated. More than 75% of all who perished originate from Eastern or Central Europe.-- These 75% are naturally interesting for us, for the remaining 25% are only 1½ mill. killed Jews from the report from Austria, Holland, Germany, France, Belgium,-- of France, Belgium however there is nothing at all in here.--- Here it is now, e.g., established that finally in the summer of 1942 in the mass deportati[ons] a culmination point was reached at the gas chambers of Meidanek and Auschwits. We have indeed seen before, in another statement, that the gas chambers were [TS INS: still] not made ready, in the summer of 1942. Then it is pointed out here that through the penning-in of Jews into the ghetto in Warsaw in the first period of the occupation more than 50 000 Jews died in Warsaw.--- 6 mill. Jews of the total 9½ mill. Jews who lived in Europe at the end of 1939 perished from deprivation and illness or were killed. The number of the Jews who had to give up their lives during the war is thus 22 times greater than only that of the Americans 273 830 who fell on the battlefields. 17 times greater than that of the English soldiers and civilians 335506 who lost their lives in the course of the war. The enormous dimensions of the Jew[ish] catastrophe become truly evident [erzichtlich — for ersichtlich, "evident"] only when one compares the war losses of the Jews with those of the other peoples. Jews of Europe 63% -- 6 mill. of 9 mill. 500 000 Russians 11.4% -- 20 mill. of 175 mill. Yugoslavia 11% -- 1 mill. 760 000 - 15 mill. Germans including Austr[ians] and Sudeten Germans 9% --- 7 mill. of 78 mill. Poles 8.3% -- 2 mill. of 24 mill. England 0.7% --- 335 506 of 45 mill. Americans 0.12% --- 273 830 of 140 mill. The Jew[ish] losses are those of European Jewry. Jews who fell as member[s] of alli[ed] armies appear in the figures of the respective countries. For the above tabulation the most heavily struck peoples and those who suffered least were chosen. The Jew[ish] people stands in any case at the top with its losses, for these are still 3 times greater than those of the Yugoslavs, of whom approximately a quarter [reurtel — for Viertel, "quarter"] lost their lives. Compared with the Russians the Jews lost 6 times and with the Poles 3 times more people, although Russians, Poles, Yugoslavs are regarded as those peoples who had to bleed the most in the last world war. Compared with the British the Jews have [lost] 90 times more, and with the Americans even 525 times more. For the calculation the state of the Jew[ish] population of 1939 is taken as the basis. Had one taken 33 as the basis of the calculation in Germany and 38 as the basis in Austr[ia], the % would be significantly smaller.-

Because in both countries the Jews took advantage of the favorable situation and emi…. For in the years after 1933 the Nazis sought only to cripple the Jews economically and ruin them.

Questioner reads aloud

Taking September 1939 as the starting point

Questioner

—that means that, to a large extent, emigration is also…

For Poland we get

Questioner reads aloud

3,300,000; Jewish losses, 2,800,000.

Eichmann

Against that, the General Government figure of two million.

Questioner reads aloud

Russia, occupied territories: Jewish population in 1939, 3,100,000; losses, 1500…. Romania, September 1939: 850,000; losses, 425,000. Hungary, September 1939: 404,000; losses, 202,000. Survivors do not always remain in their home countries.

Eichmann

But this figure of 202,000 is reduced by the number of Jews who survived and did not return to their home country.

Questioner reads aloud

Czechoslovakia, September 1939: 315,000; losses, 250,000.

Questioner

So only 50,000 would have emigrated?

Eichmann

I do not know that quite for certain, but it could just as well be 80,000 or 90,000.

Questioner reads aloud

France, September 1939: 300,000; losses, 90,000. The figures for France, Belgium, Holland and Italy include emigrants. Germany, September 1939: 210,000 Jews; losses, 170,000.

Eichmann

From September 1939 to the end of 1940, emigration marched on. I only came to Berlin in 1940, and only then was the Central Office for Jewish Emigration established there. People emigrated up to 1941; only then came the ban prohibiting further emigration. So until then people could still emigrate quite merrily. The outbreak of war alone drove emigration on. Emigration from 1939 to the middle of 1941 is the same percentage—perhaps somewhat high—as the normal emigration of the 290,000 spread over the years 1933 to 1939.

It can hardly be assumed that the outbreak of war stopped emigration, because it was not stopped in Prague either. How else could I have established the Central Office for Jewish Emigration as late as 1940, even if not for very long? I do not want to put the figure too high, but it is reasonable to assume that 5,000 to 7,000 Jews were processed in the Berlin Central Office's short period of operation. Nor can I recall any obstacle up to 1941 preventing the Jews from emigrating.

So we can say with a clear conscience that we are doing relatively well if we say that, from September 1939 to the declaration of war on Russia, in those one and a half years we would have to subtract from 210,000 those who emigrated from 1933 to 1939. Let us say 80,000; that leaves 130,000. And how many of those 130,000 were lost to natural decrease? There was an extraordinarily aged population. Then, certainly, it was not only people of German blood who died in the bombing raids. Since the Jews were concentrated in the big cities, and it was mainly the big cities that were bombed, a great many Jews there were naturally affected too.

Open page image and German
Page 659 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 659 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Weil doch in den beiden Ländern die Juden die günstige Lage nützten und emi… Denn in den Jahren nach 33 trachteten die Nazis nur danach die Juden wirtschaftl. lahm zu legen und zu ruinieren. – Als September 1939 als Ausgangspunkt – d.h. also, da wird zu einem großen Teil die Emigration mit… Die bekommen wir für Polen, 3 Mill 300 000, jüd. Verluste 2 Mill 8 00 000 Dem entgegen das Ergebnis des Gen Gov. von 2 Mill. Rußland besetzte Gebiete; jüd Bevölkerung 1939; 3 Mill 100 000 – Verluste 1500… Rumänien, Sept 1939; 850 000 – Verluste 425 000 Ungarn Sept 39 404 000 – * 202 000 (Überlebende bleiben nicht immer in ihren Heimatländern) Diese Zahl von 202 000 verringert sich aber durch die Zahl der Überlebenden und nicht in ihr Heimatland zurückgekehrten Juden Czechoslowakei Sept 39 ; 315 000 – Verluste 250 000 (wären also nur 50 000 Ausgewanderte?) Das weiß ich nicht ganz sicher, es können aber auch ebenso gut 80 od 90 000 sein Frankreich Sept 39 : 300 000 – 90 000 Verluste (In den Zahlen von Frankreich, Belgien Holland und Italien sind die Emigranten einbegriffen. Deutschland Sept 39: 210 000 Juden – 170 000 Verluste. Von Sept 39 bis Ende 40 marschierte die Auswanderung – erst 1940 kam ich nach Berlin und da wurde erst dort die Zentralstelle f.j. A. geschaffen. Es sind bis 41 ausgewandert, erst dann kam das Verbot, daß nicht mehr ausgewandert werden darf. Es konnte also bis dahin noch frisch-fröhlich ausgewandert werden. Schon allein durch das Kriegseinsetzen wurde die Auswanderung angetrieben. Die Auswanderung von 39 bis Mitte 41 ist dasselbe prozentuale Verhältnis wie die vielleicht etwas hoch normale Abwanderung der 290 000 verteilt auf die Jahre 33 bis 39. Es ist kaum anzunehmen, daß die Auswanderung gestoppt wurde durch das Kriegseintreten, denn in Prag wurde sie ja auch nicht gestoppt und wie sonst auch hätte ich erst 1940 die Zentralstelle f.j. A. noch einrichten können, wenn auch nicht für sehr lange. Ich will die Ziffer nicht zu hoch angeben, aber es ist doch anzunehmen daß 5-7000 Juden in der kurzen Zeit der Zentralstelle in Berlin abgefertigt wurden. Ich kann mich auch nicht entsinnen, daß irgendwie ein Hindernis im Wege stand bis 41 daß die Juden haben abwandern können. So können wir also doch mit ruhigem Gewissen sagen, daß wir relativ gut fahren, wenn wir sagen, daß von Sept 39 bis zur Kriegserklärung an Rußland, dann müßten wir in den 11/2 Jahren von 210 000 jene abziehen, die von 33 bis 39 abgewandert sind, sagen wir also einmal 80 000 bleiben 130 000 übrig – nun und wieviel sind von diesen 130 000 der naturl. Verminderung a heim gefallen, es war doch eine außerordentliche Überalterung da, dann sind bestimmt bei den Bombenangriffen nicht nur deutschblütige ums Leben gekommen und nach dem die Juden ja in den großen Städter konzentriert waren, und nach dem ja hauptsächl. die großen Städte bombardiert wurden, so hat es dort natürlich auch sehr viele Juden betroffen.

Draft translation

10 'Volume 62 [HW: 659] Because after all in the two countries the Jews took advantage of the favorable situation and e[?aign?] For in the years after 33 the Nazis strove only to cripple the Jews economically and to ruin [them].-- When September 1939 as starting point-- i.e. that is, there to a large part the emigration with...... We get for Poland, 3 million 300,000, Jewish losses 2 million 8[0]0,000 Against this the result of the Gen[eral] Gov[ernment] of 2 million. Russia occupied territories; Jewish population 1939; 3 million 100,000-- losses 1500[?0?] Romania, Sept 1939; 850,000--losses 425,000 Hungary Sept 39 404,000 --- * 202,000 (Survivors do not always remain in their home countries) This figure of 202,000 is however reduced by the number of the survivors and Jews who did not return to their home country Czechoslovakia Sept 39; 515,000 ---- losses 250,000 (there would thus be only 50,000 emigrated?) That I do not know quite for certain, but it could just as well also be 80 or 90,000 France Sept 39: 300,000 -- 90,000 losses (In the figures for France, Belgium Holland and Italy the emigrants are included. Germany Sept 39: 210,000 Jews--- 170,000 losses. From Sept 39 until end of 40 the emigration marched on--only in 1940 did I come to Berlin and only there was then the Central Office for J[ewish] E[migration] created. There were up to 41 emigrated, only then came the prohibition that no more emigration is permitted. So up until then it was still possible to emigrate cheerful and merry. Already by the outbreak of war alone the emigration was driven on. The emigration from 39 until mid-41 is the same percentage ratio as the [TS INS: perhaps somewhat high] normal outmigration of the 290,000 distributed over the years 33 to 39. It can hardly be assumed that the emigration was stopped by the entry into war, for in Prague it was after all also not stopped and how else could I have even set up the Central Office for J[ewish] E[migration] only in 1940, even if not for very long. I do not want to give the figure too high, but it is nonetheless to be assumed that 5-7000 Jews were processed in the short time of the Central Office in Berlin. I also cannot recall that any kind of obstacle stood in the way up until 41 that the Jews were able to migrate out. So we can thus indeed with a calm conscience say that we do relatively well if we say that from Sept 39 until the declaration of war on Russia, then we would have to xxx in the 1 1/2 years subtract from 210,000 those who migrated out from 33 to 39, so let us say once 60,000 [there] remain 130,000 left-- now and how many of these 130,000 fell prey to the natural diminution, there was after all an extraordinary over-aging present, then certainly in the bombing raids not only German-blooded [people] lost their lives and since the Jews were after all concentrated in the large cities, and since after all mainly the large cities were bombarded, so it naturally also affected very many Jews there.

We had dealt with Berlin, and we said that, starting from the figure of 210,000, we still had to include those who emigrated from September 1939 to the middle of 1941, the number lost to natural decrease, and the number of Jews killed by enemy bombing. That number could be roughly calculated as a percentage in relation to the total population of the Reich's big cities, so that we would have … a point of reference and would not have to estimate so much by rule of thumb—…

So that would take care of Germany, and that brings us to Lithuania: 150,000—135,000. Holland: 150,000—90,000.

Questioner

Holland, 150,000, and 90,000 are Jewish losses?

Eichmann

But the emigrants are included in these figures, and that is impossible to calculate. Among the 40,000 there were survivors again…

Questioner reads aloud

Belgium: Jewish population in September 1939, 90,000; losses, 40,000. Greece: 75,000 in September 1939; losses, 60,000. Yugoslavia: 75,000 in September 1939; losses, 55,000. Austria: 60,000 in September 1939; losses, 40,000.

Eichmann

From the Old Reich (Altreich) and Austria one must subtract the contingents that went to Theresienstadt. There were 10,000 Jews there.

The original number of Jews in Austria was 220,000. Out of the 220,000, the difference down to 60,000 emigrated through the Central Office for Jewish Emigration. From those 60,000 one would have to subtract the natural decrease from September 1939 to the end of the war. But Austria, just like Germany, also had that enormously aged population. One must also subtract a percentage of those hit by bombing raids, and take account of the illegal emigration as well, which was exceedingly large.

Questioner

The figure given here is 40,000. Did any more people emigrate from Austria after September 1939?

Eichmann

Of course. When I was in Berlin in 1940, Brunner was running the Central Office for Jewish Emigration in Vienna. The Central Office for Jewish Emigration continued operating from September 1939 to the middle of 1941.

Now we must make an exception for Vienna. For Vienna you must subtract the following. It does count against us, but we must do it nevertheless. You said that, out of 220,000 in Vienna, the difference down to 60,000 had emigrated by September 1939—that is 160,000. But I sent 100,000 away within a single calendar year, and that pace was not maintained. So when he writes that I had been over there in the spring of 1938, around September 1938 the Central Office for Jewish Emigration began working, and by the summer of 1939 it had been 100,000, then it went somewhat more slowly. There we must, to do the matter

Open page image and German
Page 660 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 660 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Wir hatten Berlin gehabt und zwar sagten wir, wir müßten von der Zahl 210 000 noch die Ausgewanderten dazu nehmen von September 1939 bis Mitte 1941 und die Zahl der natürlichen Verminderung und die Zahl der durch feindlichen Bombenangriff getöteten Juden, die man ja ungefähr errechnen könnte im Prozentsatz im Vergleich zur Gesamtbevölkerung in den großen Städten des Reiches, so daß wir in etwa 2 einen Anhaltspunkt hätten und nicht so über den Daumen peilen müs: – So damit hätten wir also Deutschland und damit kommen wir auf Litauen, 150 000 – 135 000 – Holland 150 000 – 90 000 – Holland 150 000 und 90 000 sind jüd Verluste? Aber in diesen Zahlen sind die Emigranten einbegriffen – aber das ist unmöglich zu errechnen. – Von den 40 000 auch wieder Überlebende waren… Belgien 90 000 jüd Bevölkerung, September 1939, – 40 000 Verluste Griechenland 75000 September 39 – 60 000 Verluste Jugoslawien 75 000 September 39 – 55 000 Verluste Östreich 60 000 September 39 – 40 000 Verluste Man muß vom Altreich und Östreich die Kontigente abziehen die nach Theresienstadt gekommen sind. – Dort waren 10 000 Juden. – [handschriftlich: Es sollen laut Literatur mehr(?) gewesen sein!!!] Die ursprüngliche Anzahl von Juden in Östreich waren 220 000. – 220 000, die Differenz auf 60 000 sind durch die Z.f.J.A. ausgewandert, von diesen 60 000 wäre abzuziehen die Zahl der natürlichen Verminderung, vom September 39 bis zum Kriegsschluß, – aber auch in Östreich trifft zu, genau wie in Deutschland die enorme Überalterung. Auch einen Prozentsatz abziehen von den Bombenangriffen Getroffenen, ferner auch die illegale Abwanderung beachten, die überaus groß gewesen ist – Es werden hier angegeben 40 000 – sind seit dem Sept 39 aus Östreich noch welche emigriert? Natürlich, als ich 1940 in Berlin war, führte Brunner die Z.f.J. A. in Wien. Von Sept. 39 bis Mitte 41 arbeitete die Zentralstelle f.J.A. weiter. Nun müssen wir in Wien eine Ausnahme machen, in Wien müssen Sie folgendes abziehen, es ist zwar zu unseren Ungunsten, aber wir müssen es trotzdem machen; Sie sagten in Wien sind ausgewandert von 220 000, – die Differenz bis Sept 39 zu 60 000, das sind 160 000 – nun habe ich aber innerhalb eines einzigen Kalenderjahres 100 000 abgefahren, diese Rasanz blieb nicht beibehalten, wenn er also schreibt, im Frühjahr 1938 war ich drüben gewesen, im Sept 38 so etwa fing die Z.f.J. A. an zu arbeiten, und im Sommer 39 waren es 100 000 gewesen, da ging es etwa langsamer, da müssen wir um die Sache

Draft translation

Band 63 [HW: [illegible]] We had had Berlin, and specifically we said, we would have to add to the number 21o 000 also the emigrated ones from September 1939 until mid-1941 and the number of the natural diminution and the number of the Jews killed by enemy bombing raids, which one could indeed approximately calculate in the percentage in comparison to the total population in the large cities of the Reich, so that we would have in e+2 a point of reference and would not have to estimate so much by the thumb -- So with that we would thus have Germany and with that we come to Lithuania, 15o 000 -- 135 000 -- Holland 150 000 --- 90 000 --- Holland 150 000 and 90 000 are Jewish losses? But in these numbers the emigrants are included -- but that is impossible to calculate. -- Of the 40 000 there were also again survivors....... Belgium 90 000 Jewish population, September 1939, -- 40 000 losses Greece 75000 September 39 - 60 000 losses Yugoslavia 75 000 September 39 - 55 000 losses Austria 60 000 September 39 - 40 000 losses One must subtract from the Altreich [Old Reich] and Austria the contingents that came to Theresienstadt. -- [DEL: There were 10 000 Jews there. --] [HW: [illegible]] The original number of Jews in Austria was 220 000. -- 220 000, the difference to 60 000 emigrated through the Z.f.J.A. [Central Office for Jewish Emigration], from these 60 000 there would be to subtract the number of the natural diminution, from September 39 until the end of the war, -- but also in Austria there applies, exactly as in Germany, the enormous over-ageing. Also subtract a percentage of those affected by the bombing raids, furthermore also observe the illegal out-migration, which has been exceedingly large -- There are given here 40 000 -- have any still emigrated from Austria since September 39? Naturally, when I was in Berlin in 1940, Brunner ran the Z.f.J.A. in Vienna. From September 39 until mid-41 the Zentralstelle f.J.A. [Central Office for Jewish Emigration] continued to work. Now we must make an exception in Vienna, in Vienna you must subtract the following, it is admittedly to our disadvantage, but we must do it nonetheless; you said in Vienna emigrated of 220 000, — the difference [TS INS: until Sept 39] to 60 000, that is 160 000 --- now however I had within one single calendar year sent off 100 000, this rapid pace was not maintained, so if he writes, in the spring of 1938 I had been over there, in September 38 the Z.f.J.A. approximately began to work, and in the summer of 39 it had been 100 000, then it went somewhat more slowly, there we must — around the matter

…justice, a …. We did not need to admit it. I am only saying it now; it is the truth. The slowdown may have been about ten percent, but no more. And since there was another year and a half from September 1939 to June 1941, once again roughly the span of time we had before—

[The speech is so disconnected; the sentences keep changing into a different form…]

Had it continued at that pace, everything would have been liquidated through emigration by the end of 1940. But it was not so. Some transports did run, but the bulk from Austria emigrated.

Questioner

Do you remember how many transports were run?

Eichmann

Very few from Austria.

Questioner reads aloud

Italy: 5[?],000 in September 1939; Jewish losses, 15,000. Bulgaria: 50,000 in September 1939; Jewish losses, 7,000. Various—Denmark, Norway, Luxembourg, Danzig, Estonia: 20,000 in September 1939; losses, 6,000.

Eichmann

One must include the natural decrease and losses caused by the effects of the war.

Questioner reads aloud

So from a total Jewish population of nine and a half million one arrives at a Jewish population of 8,301,000 in 1939. Jewish losses: 5,978,000—72 percent Jewish losses.

The Jews of Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Czechoslovakia have the highest birth rate in their total population of about 4,000,000. The least assimilated Jews—the total Jewish losses in these countries amount to 85 percent. Subtract 100,000 Jews from Bohemia and Moravia, who had a lower birth rate and a higher degree of assimilation, and a Jewish population of 3,750,000 remains in the countries named.

Questioner

In which countries?

Eichmann

Poland, Latvia, Lithuania.

Questioner

And why not Czechoslovakia?

Eichmann

It had a higher degree of assimilation among the Jews.

Questioner

Elsewhere he writes of three and a half million Jews in the General Government?

Eichmann

But the General Government was roughly half of Poland.

So if there were three and a half million Jews in all of Poland, a certain percentage, X, was in the General Government, and the other percentage, X 2, was in the Russian-occupied territory. We must therefore work with the figure of three and a half million; that brings us to the exact number for the General Government.

Open page image and German
Page 661 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 661 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

gerecht zu machen einen… wir brauchten es nicht zu bekennen, das sage ich nur jetzt, es entspricht der Wahrheit, die Verzögerung mag etwa 10 % gewesen sein, aber nicht mehr… Und weil nun vom Sept 39 bis Juni 41 nochmal 11/2 Jahr Zeit blieben, also noch einmal so etwa die Zeitspanne die früher wir hatten, (Es ist so unzusammenhängend gesprochen, dauernd ändern sich die Sätze in eine andere Form… Wenn es mit einer solchen Rasanz weiter gegangen wäre, dann wäre Ende 40 alles durch Auswanderung liquidiert worden. Es war aber nicht so, es sind ja einige Transporte gefahren, aber das Gros von Östreich ist ausgewandert. Haben Sie in Erinnerung, wieviel Transp. gefahren wurden? Aus Östreich ganz wenig Italien 5… 000 September 39 – 15 000 jüd. Verluste Bulgarien 50 000 September 39 – 7000 jüd. Verluste Verschiedenes Dänemark, Norwegen, Luxemburg, Danzig, Estland, – 20 000 September 39 – 6000 Verluste Man muß die natürliche Verminderung mit einziehen und die Verluste durch die Kriegeinwirkungen. Nun kommt man also von 91/2 Mill Gesamtzahl der jüd Bevölkerung auf 8 301 000 jüd. Bevölkerung 1939. – Jüd. Verluste 5 978 000 – 72% jüd. Verluste Juden Lettlands, Litauen, Polen und Czechoslowakei den höchsten Geburtenstand in ihrer etwa 4 000 000 Gesamtbevölkerung aufzuweisen haben. Die wenigst assim. Juden – die jüd. total Verluste dieser Länder betragen 85 %. – 100 000 Juden aus Böhmen und Mähren abziehen, die einen geringeren Geburtenstand und einen höheren Grad assim. Juden aufzuweisen hatten, so bleibt in den genannten Ländern eine jüd. Bevölkerung von 3 750 000 In welchen Ländern? Polen, Lettland, Litauen Und warum nicht Czechoslowakei? Hatte einen höheren Grad Assim. Juden An einer anderen Stelle schreibt er 31/2 Mill Juden in Gen. Gov? Das ist aber ungefähr die Hälfte gewesen von Polen, das Gen. Gov. Wenn also in ganz Polen 31/2 Mill Juden waren, davon war dann eine bestimmt… Prozentsatz X im Gen. Gov…, der andere Prozentsatz, X 2, war im russ. besetzten Gebiet gewesen – wir müssen also nun mit der 31/2 Mill Ziffer rechnen, dadurch kommen wir auf die genaue Zahl für das Gen. Gov.

Draft translation

2 Volume 63 [HW: 6061] to make just a.......... we did not need to admit it, I only say that now, it corresponds to the truth, the delay may have been about 10 %, but no more...... And because now from Sept 39 until June 41 another 1 1/2 year of time remained, so once again about the time-span that we had earlier, (It is spoken so incoherently, the sentences constantly change into another form......... If it had continued with such a rapidity, then by the end of 40 [DEL: [illegible]] everything would have been liquidated through emigration. But it was not so, indeed a few transports did run, but the bulk of Austria emigrated. Do you have it in memory how many transports were run? Out of Austria very few Italy 52 000 September 39 ---15 000 Jewish losses Bulgaria 50 000 September 39 --- 7000 Jewish losses Various Denmark, Norway, Luxembourg, Danzig, Estonia, --20 000 September 39--6000 losses One must draw in the natural diminution and the losses through the effects of the war. Now one arrives thus from 9 1/2 Mill total number of the Jewish population at 8 301 000 Jewish population 1939.-- Jewish losses 5 978 000 ---- 72% Jewish losses Jews of Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Czechoslovakia have to show the highest birth-rate in their approximately 4 000 000 total population. The least assimilated Jews--the Jewish total losses of these countries amount to 85 %.- subtract 100 000 Jews from Bohemia and Moravia, who had a lower birth-rate and a higher degree of assimilated Jews to show, thus there remains in the named countries a Jewish population of 3 750 000 In which countries? Poland, Latvia, Lithuania And why not Czechoslovakia? Had a higher degree of assimilated Jews At another place he writes 3 1/2 Mill Jews in Gen. Gov? But that was approximately the half of Poland, the Gen. Gov. [TS INS: Mill] So if in all Poland there were 3 1/2 Jews, of that then a certain percentage X was in the Gen. Gov..., the other percentage, X 2, had been in the Russian occupied territory--we must thus now reckon with the 3 1/2 Mill figure, thereby we arrive at the exact number for the Gen. Gov.

Questioner

With Poland, the figure of three and a half million is being juggled. On that basis there could have been X 1, two million, in the General Government, and X 2, one and a half million Jews, in the Russian-occupied territory. Let us assume that this figure is right. How many does he put down here for Latvia and Lithuania?

250,000.

Questioner

Good, let us proceed from that figure; then we have a point of reference. That would give a figure of two million for the General Government. And what happened to these two million? One would really have to ask Globocnik about that. Certainly not all of them were killed, because so and so many of them are still alive. A lot went over to the Russians. Then through partisans—Warsaw alone we must count as partisan fighting. How many were there in Warsaw?

Eichmann

500,000.

Questioner

And 6,000 of them remained. Even there, 6,000 remained; in other words, the 500,000 alone are already a partisan matter. Or were they gassed or killed? By Stroop's troops (Stropstruppen)?

Eichmann

He stated exactly what he killed, and nobody has questioned those figures.

Questioner reads from the Stroop report

Of the 66,068 Jews recorded in total, about 7,000 were destroyed in the Jewish residential sector itself during the large-scale operation. Through transport to D 2, 6,929 Jews were destroyed, so that a total of 13,929 Jews were destroyed. Out of the figure of 56,065, an estimated 5,000 to 6,000 Jews were destroyed by demolitions and fire.

Eichmann

All right, from the figure of 3,750,000 we can certainly subtract one and a half million Jews; they were already in the Russian-occupied territory. Less the fighting against bands, less the Jews who crossed over illegally to the Russians, less the Jews who remained—6,000 in Warsaw alone. Then one arrives at a figure considerably lower than two million. And the General Government is the decisively large figure, whereas everything else in the European countries amounts to relatively small numbers.

The two big items are essentially Poland and Russia. Three million and two million Jewish population. For Russia, 2,100,000 is given, and for the General Government two million.

But no one can check that. At Nuremberg they stated—Ohlendorf—and it is also accepted that with the operational detachments (Einsatzkommandos) he destroyed 90,000 Jews. But here it is stated, for Russia, there are …

Open page image and German
Page 662 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 662 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Mit Polen, mit der Zahl 31/2 Mill wird jongliert – demnach könnten sich also im Gen. Gov. X 1 2 Mill befunden haben, und im russ Besetzten Gebiet X 2 11/2 Mill. Juden. Wir nehmen also an, daß diese Zahl stimmen möge, wieviel setzt er nun hier für Lettland und Litauen ein? 250 000 Gut gehen wir von dieser Ziffer ab, da haben wir einen Anhaltspunkt, da kamme also für das Gen. Gov. eine Zahl von 2 Mill in Frage – und was ist nun mit diesen 2 Mill geschehen, da müßte man ja nun an sich Globocnik fragen – es sind bestimmt nicht alle getötet worden, denn es leben ja so und soviele davon – es sind eine Menge zum Russen rüber gegangen – dann durch Partisanen, allein Warschau müssen wir als Partisanenkampf rechnen – wieviel waren denn in Warschau 500 000 Und davon sind übrig geblieben 6 000 – selbst da sind aßo 6 000 übrig geblieben in and. Worten – die 500 000 allein sind schon Partisanengeschichte, oder sind sie gergast oder getötet worden? Durch Stropstruppen Der hat ja genau angegeben was er getötet hat – und diese Ziffern sind von niemanden angezweifelt worden Von den 66 068 insgesamt erfaßten Juden sind ca. 7000 im Zuge der Großaktion im jüd. Wohnsektor selbst vernichtet – durch Transport nach D 2 wurden 6 929 Juden vernichtet, sodaß insgesamt 13 929 Juden vernichtet wurden, von den Zahl 56 065 sind schätzungsweise 5 – 6000 Juden durch Sprengungen und Feuer vernichtet worden Also gut, von der Zahl 3 750 000 können wir 11/2 Mill Juden auf jeden Fall einmal abziehen, die sind schon im besetzten russ Gebiet gewesen, weniger der Bandenkämpfe, weniger der illegal zum Russen übergewechselten Juden, weniger der Juden dux die übrig geblieben sind, allein in Warschau 6 000 dann kommen man auf eine Zahl die bedeutend niederer ist als 2 Mill. Wobei doch das Gen. Gov. die ausschlaggebend große Ziffer ist, wo alles andere in den europ. Ländern, doch relativ kleine Zahlen sind. Die zwei großen Posten sind im Grunde genommen Polen und Rußland. 3 Mill und 2 Mill. jüd. Bevölkerung. In Rußland werden angegeben 2 100 000 Und im Gen. Gov. 2 Mill (5 Mill : 4,1 Mill ???) Aber das kann ja kein Mensch kontrollieren, in Nürnberg haben sie angegeben Ohlendorf, und das ist auch angenommen, daß er mit den Einsatzkommandos vernichtet hat 90 000 Juden, aber hier wird angegeben, für Rußland, sind un…

Draft translation

3 Band 63 [HW: 662] With Poland, with the number 3 1/2 mill. one juggles---- accordingly then there could have been in the Gen[eral] Gov[ernment] X 1 2 mill., and in the Russian occupied [HW: [illegible]] territory X 2 1 1/2 mill. Jews. So we assume that this number may be correct, how many does he now put in here for Latvia and Lithuania? 250 000 Good, let us proceed from this figure, there we have a point of reference, then for the Gen. Gov. a number of 2 mill. would come into question---and what has now happened with these 2 mill., there one would really have to ask [?Globocnik?] himself---they were certainly not all killed, for so and so many of them are still living----a lot of them went over to the Russians----then through partisans, Warsaw alone we must reckon as partisan combat--how many then were there in Warsaw 500 000 And of those there remained 6 000---even there thus 6 000 remained in oth[er] words --the 500 000 alone are already a partisan matter, or were they gassed or killed? Through [?assault troops?] He indeed indicated precisely what he killed--and these figures have been doubted by no one Of the 56 065 Jews recorded in total, ca. 7000 were destroyed in the course of the large-scale action in the Jewish residential sector itself--through transport to D 2, 6 929 Jews were destroyed, so that in total 13 929 Jews were destroyed, of the [DEL: [illegible]] [HW: number] 56 065, an estimated 5 - 6000 Jews were destroyed through demolitions and fire So then, from the number 3 750 000 we can in any case deduct 1 1/2 mill. Jews once, they were already in the occupied Russian territory, less the band-fighting [engagements], less the Jews illegally crossed over to the Russians, less the Jews who [?] remained, in Warsaw alone 6 000, then one arrives at a number that is considerably lower than 2 mill. Whereby yet the Gen. Gov. is the decisively large figure, where everything else in the European countries are yet relatively small numbers. The two large items are basically Poland and Russia. 3 mill. and 2 mill. Jewish population. In Russia 2 100 000 are given And in the Gen. Gov. 2 mill. [HW: (3 mill : 4,1 mill ? ? ?)] [HW: ↙] But no person can indeed check this, in Nuremberg they gave, Ohlendorf, and it is also assumed, that he with the Einsatzkommandos de-stroyed 90 000 Jews, but here it is given, for Russia, are un[?]

killed, 1,500,000. No one can check that.

Questioner reads aloud

The material damage suffered by the Jewish people in the territories occupied by the Nazis amounts, according to cautious estimates, to approximately 8,500 million dollars. Then, on the basis of an official investigation, we can establish that the Jews in Hitler's Europe lost approximately 1 million commercial enterprises, industrial businesses and craft businesses.

Eichmann

Now we come to a matter of principle. I do not want to defend antisemitism here, I do not like the word anyway, but let us leave it be for internal use, since this is meant to serve as information. Why did the national Reich government take the Jewish question into its program at all during its years of struggle? That is a central point.

The Jewish population had a share of the economic goods so high, so excessively high, in proportion to the rest of the population, that the hostility between the non-Jewish part, that is the host people, and the guest people, the Jewish part, took on over time the dimensions that led to this explosion, after the leadership of the host people had tried to bring the matter back to a proper, normal basis. One asks oneself why there was this hostility among the population, but the proof is there: he knew how to seize everything with brutality and force and to let the others go without.

Here the Jews admit it themselves. It is a double-edged sword for them. On the one hand they get decent compensation and restitution, but on the other hand they themselves admit what enormous enrichment the Jewish people took for itself here within the host people.

Questioner

Report by Po…:

Questioner reads from a 1951 article on the six million

6 million are confirmed statistically and by documents.

Questioner

This article was written in response to an inquiry from the Protestant Church in Germany concerning the murders of Jews in the Third Reich. The Church would like reliable material so that the clergy can answer questions put to them by their congregations. This is from 1951. Signed by a Harlin…

Now Po… says:

Questioner reads from a 1951 article on the six million

How does one arrive at a figure of 6 million in the first place? If we regard the international court in Nuremberg as the originator of this figure, we can hardly be mistaken. There we find, for example, that Adolf Eichmann, whom Hitler had charged with extermination, himself admitted having brought about the death of 6 million Jews, of whom 4 million perished in the concentration camps. This figure is not substantiated, but if one looks at

Open page image and German
Page 663 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 663 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Umgebracht worden 1 500 000 – kann kein Mensch kontrollieren. Die Sachschäden des jüd. Volkes in den von den Nazis besetzten Gebiete beläuft sich vorsichtigen Schätzungen nach auf ungefähr 8 500 Mill Dollar Dann auf Grund einer amtlichen Untersuchung können wir feststellen, daß die Juden im Hitlereuropa ungefähr 1 Mill Handelsunternehmen, Industrie und handwerkliche Betriebe einbüßten – Nun kommen wir zu einer grundsätzlichen Angelegenheit, ich will hier nicht den Antisemitismus verteidigen, das Wort ist so wieso mir nicht sympathisch, aber wollen wir es mal im internen Gebrauch ruhig belassen, denn es soll ja zur Information dienen; Warum hat überhaupt die national. Reichsregierung während ihrer Kampfzeit in ihr Programm die Judenfrage aufgenommen? – Das ist ein Kernpunkt – es kam der jüd. Bevölkerung im Prozentsatz zu der anderen Bevölkerung ein so hoher, überspitzt hoher Anteil an den Wirtschaftsgüter zu gute, daß hier die Feindschaft zwischen dem nicht jüd. Teil, also dem Wirtsvolk und dem Gastvolk, dem jüd. Teil, hier im Laufe der Zeit jene Ausmaße annahm, die zu dieser Explosion führte, nachdem die Führung des Wirtsvolks bestrebt war, diese Sache auf eine ordentliche, normale Basis zurückzuführen. – Man fragt sich , warum bei der Bevölkerung diese Feindschaft, aber bewaist es sich, er hat es verstanden, alles mit Brutalität und Gewalt an sich zu reißen und den anderen darben zu lassen – Hier geben die Juden ja es selber zu, es ist ein zweischneidiges Schwert für sie – auf der einen Seite bekommen sie eine anständige Entschädigung und Wiedergutmachung, aber auf der anderen Seite geben sie selber zu welche enorme Bereicherung sich hier das jüd Volk in dem Wirtsvolk angeeignet hat. Bericht von Po. [unleserlich] 6 Mill sind statistisch und dokumentarisch bestätigt. – Dieser Artikel ist geschrieben, auf Grund einer Anfrage der ev. Kirche in Deutschland, mit Bezug auf die Judenmorde in dritten Reich. Die Kirche möchte zuverlässiges Material haben, damit die Pfarrschaft in den Stand gesetzt wird, Fragen zu begegnen, die aus den Gemeinden an sie herantreten. Das ist vom Jahre 1951. – Gezeichnet von einem Harlin… Nun sagt Po… …; Wie kommt man überhaupt auf eine Zahl von 6 Mill? Wenn wir als Initiator dieser Ziffer den internationalen Gerichtshof in Nürnberg ansehen, so dürften wir uns darin kaum täuschen – Wir finden dort zB. daß Adolf Eichmann, der von Hitler mit der Ausrottung beauftragt war, selbst zu gab, den Tod von 6 Mill Juden heraufbeschworen zu haben, von welchen 4 Mill in den KZ umkamen – diese Zahl wird zwar nicht belegt, sieht man jedoch

Draft translation

Band 63 [HW: 603] Killed 1,500,000 --no human being can verify. The material damages of the Jewish people in the areas occupied by the Nazis amount, according to cautious estimates, to approximately 8,500 Mill[ion] Dollars Then on the basis of an official [DEL: [?investigation?]] [HW: investigation] we can establish that the Jews in Hitler-Europe forfeited approximately 1 Mill[ion] commercial enterprises, industrial and handicraft businesses---- Now we come to a fundamental matter, I do not want here to defend antisemitism, the word is in any case not congenial to me, but let us calmly leave it for internal use, for it is indeed supposed to serve for information; Why did the national[.] Reich government at all during its time of struggle take up the Jewish question in its program?---That is a core point ----- there fell to the Jewish population, in the percentage relative to the other population, such a high, exaggeratedly high share of the economic goods, that here the enmity between the non-Jewish part, that is the host people and the guest people, the Jewish part, here in the course of time took on those proportions which led to this explosion, after the leadership of the host people strove to bring this matter back onto a proper, normal basis .--One asks oneself, why among the population this enmity, but it proves itself, he understood how to seize everything with brutality and force and to let the others suffer want--- Here the Jews themselves indeed admit it, it is a double-edged sword for them--- on the one hand they receive a decent compensation and reparation, but on the other hand they themselves admit what enormous enrichment the Jewish people has here appropriated for itself within the host people. Report by Po. [HW: [illegible]] 6 Mill[ion] are statistically and documentarily confirmed.-- This article is written, on the basis of an inquiry of the Protestant Church in Germany, with reference to the Jew-murders in the Third Reich. The Church would like to have reliable material, so that the pastorate is put in the position to meet questions that come to them from the congregations. That is from the year 1951.---- Signed by a Harlin........ Now Po... ..says; How does one arrive at all at a figure of 6 Mill[ion]? If we regard as the initiator of this figure the international court of justice in Nuremberg, then we could hardly be mistaken in that -- We find there e.g. that Adolf Eichmann, who was charged by Hitler with the extermination, himself admitted having brought about the death of 6 Mill[ion] Jews, of whom 4 Mill[ion] perished in the concentration camps--this figure is indeed not substantiated, however one sees [HW: Madness!!!!!]

Questioner reads from a 1951 article on the six million

the court records, one has to note that the court relied on 2 witness statements and received the figure second-hand, so to speak: the statements of the SS men Wilhem Hoettl and Dieter Wi…. Both were good friends of Eichmann, and Wi… was one of his closest colleagues. They state that they know this figure from Eichmann himself. From the standpoint of serious historical criticism, one could object that so vague a source can only be regarded as a supposition. Yet the wording “Eichmann himself admitted” is already cautious enough.

2. A document discovered in the archives of the Third Reich only after the verdict does, however, not merely confirm the assumed figure but even treats it as a minimum. The document in question is a statistical report on the Final Solution of the Jewish question, drawn up at the beginning of 43 by the statistical supervision in the Third Reich on Himmler's orders. This balance sheet of the Final Solution carries the date 31.12.42. It is thoroughly serious work by professional statisticians, who arrived at the following result. On the balance of European Jewry, the decrease in Europe would accordingly already amount to 4 million.

Larger communities still exist only in Russia, in Hungary about 750,000 (here the Jewish population of Sept 39 is given as 404,000), in Romania 300,000 and without doubt also in France. If one takes into account Jewish emigration and also the maximum mortality rate, and along with that certain errors as well, which may arise in the exact assessment through the back and forth movement of the Jewish population and are unavoidable, then one can still put the decrease in the Jewish population of Europe between 1937 and 1943 at 4 1/2 million.

This figure includes Jewish deaths in the eastern territories only in part, while the decrease in the rest of Russia and in the front area is not taken into account at all. When we read that, emigration included, the decrease amounts to 4 1/2 million, that is just as clear as when the report states that, emigration not included, it is a matter of a decrease of 4 million. One must not forget in this connection that the statisticians occupied with these questions preferred to use a somewhat veiled manner of expression. The figures named refer to 31 Sept. 1942

Questioner

[September, however, has only 30 days.]

Questioner reads from a 1951 article on the six million

and in no case cover the other deaths that occurred in Russia and at the front. At that time Hungarian Jewry was also still entirely untouched,

Open page image and German
Page 664 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 664 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

die Gerichtsprotokolle ein, muß man dabei feststellen, daß sich das Gericht auf 2 Zeugenaussagen bezog, die Zahl sozusagen aus zweiter Hand der SS Leute erhielt und zwar die Aussagen von Wilhem Höttel und Dieter Wi…. Beide waren gute Freunde Eichmanns und Wi einer seiner engsten Mitarbeiter sie versichern diese Zahl von Eichmann selbst zu wissen. Vom Standpunkt ernsthafter, historischer Kritik ließe sich wohl hier einwenden, daß eine so vage Quelle lediglich als Vermutung angesehen werden kann. Doch ist der Text; " Eichmann selbst gab zu"… schon vorsichtig genug. 2. – Ein Dokument, daß erst nach dem Urteilsspruch in den Archiven des 3. Reiches entdeckt wurden, bestätigt jedoch, die angenommene Zahl nicht nur, sondern betrachtet sie sogar als mindest Zahl. Bei dem betr. Dokument handelt es sich um einen statistischen Bericht über die Endlösung der Judenfrage welcher Anfang 43 durch die statistische Aufsicht im dritten Reich auf Befehl Himmlers erstellt wurde. Diese Bilanz der Endlösung trägt das Datum 31.12. 42. Es ist eine durchaus ernstzunehmende Arbeit von Berufsstatistikern, die zu folgendem Resultat gelangten; Bei der Bilanz des europ. Judentums( müßte sich der Abgang in Europa demzufolge bereits auf 4 Mill belaufen. Größere Gemeinde existieren nur noch in Rußland. in Ungarn etwa 750 000 – (hier wird angegeben jüd. Bevölkerung Sept 39 404 000) – in Rumänien 300 000 und ohne Zweifel auch in Frankreich. Wenn man die jüd. Abwanderung und auch den Sterblichkeitshöchstsatz und dabei aber auch gewisse Fehler berücksichtigt, die vielleicht in der genauen Beurteilung durch das Hin und Her der jüd. Bevölkerung hervorgerufen werden und unvermeidlich sind, so kann man doch den Abgang der Juden in Europa zwischen 1937 und 1943 auf 41/2 Mill festsetzen. Diese Zahl schließt jüd. Todesfälle in den Ostgebieten nur teilweise ein, während der Abgang in übrigen Rußland und im Frontgebiet überhaupt nicht berücksichtigt ist. Wenn wir lesen, einschließl. der Abwanderung beläuft sich der Abgang auf 41/2 Mill, so ist das ebenso klar, als wenn im Bericht steht, die Abwanderung nicht eingeschlossen, handelt es sich um 4 Mill Abgang. Man darf dabei nicht vergessen, daß die mit den Fragen sich beschäftigten Statistikern es vorzogen, eine etwas verschleierte Ausdrucksweise zu verwenden. Die genannten Zahlen beziehen sich auf den 31. Sept. 1942 (Sept hat aber nur 30 Tage…) und gelten keinesfalls für die übrigen in Rußland und an der Front eingetretenen Todesfällen. Zu jenen Zeiten war das ungar. Judentum auch noch völlig unbehelligt,

Draft translation

5 Volume 63 [HW: 664] the court protocols, one must note thereby that the court referred to 2 witness statements, obtained the number so to speak second-hand [TS INS: of the SS people] namely the statements of Wilhem Hoettel and Dieter Wi.... Both were good friends of Eichmann and Wi one of his closest collaborators; they assure that they know this number from Eichmann himself. From the standpoint of serious, historical criticism it could well be objected here that such a vague source can be regarded merely as a supposition. Yet the text; "Eichmann himself admitted"...... is already cautious enough. 2.--A document, that was discovered only after the pronouncement of the verdict in the archives of the 3rd Reich, however confirms the assumed number not only, but even regards it as a minimum number. The document in question is a statistical report on the Final Solution of the Jewish question which was drawn up at the beginning of 43 by the statistical supervision in the third Reich on Himmler's order. This balance of the Final Solution bears the date 31.12. 42. It is a thoroughly serious work by professional statisticians, who arrived at the following result; In the balance of European Jewry( the departure in Europe would accordingly already amount to 4 million. Larger communities exist only still in Russia. in Hungary about 750 000--(here is given Jewish population Sept 39 404 000)--in Romania 300 000 and without doubt also in France. If one takes into account the Jewish emigration and also the highest mortality rate and thereby but also certain errors, that [DEL: [illegible]] are perhaps called forth in the exact assessment by the back and forth of the Jewish population and are unavoidable, then one can indeed set the departure of the Jews in Europe between 1937 and 1943 at 4 1/2 million.. This number includes Jewish deaths in the Eastern territories only partially, while the departure in the rest of Russia and in the front area is not taken into account at all. If we read, including the emigration the departure amounts to 4 1/2 million, then that is just as clear, as when in the report it stands, the emigration not included, it is a matter of 4 million departure. One must not forget thereby, that the statisticians occupied with the questions preferred to use a somewhat veiled manner of expression. The named numbers refer to the 31 Sept. 1942 (but Sept has only 30 days........) and by no means apply to the other deaths occurred in Russia and at the front. At those times the Hungarian Jewry was also still completely unmolested,

Questioner reads from a 1951 article on the six million

whereas according to German documents 430,000 Jews were deported to Auschwitz from April to July 1944 alone. (So we are already at 430,000 Jewish losses here.) At that time there were still densely populated ghettos and enormous labor camps in occupied Poland. But then in the two following years the Jews were hunted throughout the whole of Europe. The credibility of this document should be beyond doubt, and it therefore provides a certain basis on which one may say with fair certainty that the number of Jews exterminated amounts to 5 to 7 million.

Added to that is the fact that this statistician, who carried out much of this work at my office, himself established the figures with the local offices by teleprinter or through visits. It is an extraordinarily important objection when I tell you that every office at that time liked to doctor its figures upward: the number of Jews in its area, and also the number of Jews dealt with in some form. That is not to say that these were perhaps Jews who had been dealt with and were dead; no, Jews dealt with in that way generally. But the figures were always doctored upward.

Questioner

Now 2 paragraphs further on.

Questioner reads from a 1951 article on the six million

Only the strongest men had any prospect of staying alive. If one takes all this into account as well, then it is absolutely possible that the actual losses of Jewry from 1933 to 1945 amount to 6 million. Professional statisticians also take this view.

Questioner

[overlapping commentary]

and he says about this report,

Questioner reads from a 1951 article on the six million

the outstanding statistician Jakob Les…zynski, this statistician had a different method, in that he compared the corresponding head count of the Jewish population before the war with the one after the war, and then arrived on this basis, in his study Balance Sheet of the Extermination, New York 1946, at the same final total, namely 6 million losses. To be quite exact, L… gives the figure 5,978,000.

Eichmann

But he does not add that L… himself says the survivors did not always stay in their home countries. In the figures for France, Belgium, Holland and Italy the emigrants are included, and so on. Added to that is the fact that the figures given for Hungary, for example, that I could give these figures more credence, because they are figures that were somehow fixed at a time

Open page image and German
Page 665 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 665 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Während deutschen Dokumenten zufolge vom April bis Juli 1944 allein 430 000 Juden nach Auschwitz deportiert wurden. (Also sind wir hier schon auf 430 000 jüd. Verluste) Damals existierten auch in besetzten Polen, noch dicht bevölkerte Ghettos und riesige Arbeitslager. – Dann jedoch wurde in den beiden folgenden Jahren in ganz Europa auf die Juden Jagd gemacht. – Die Glaubwürdigkeit dieses Dokumentes dürfte außer Zweifel stehen und deshalb stellt es eine gewisse Grundlage da, nach der man mit ziemlicher Bestimmtheit sagen darf, daß sich die Zahl der vernichteten Juden auf 5 bis 7 Mill beläuft. – – Dazu kommt, daß dieser Statistiker der diese Arbeiten zum großen Teil auf meiner Dienststelle durchführte, selbst durch Fernschreiben oder durch Besuche die Zahl bei den örtlichen Stellen festgestellt hat und es ist ein außerordentlich wichtiger Einwand, wenn ich Ihnen sage, daß eine jede Stelle um jene Zeit gerne die Zahl nach oben frisierte, und zwar die Zahl der in seinem Gebiet befindlichen Juden, und auch die Zahl der in irgendeiner Form behandelten Juden, wobei damit nicht gesagt sei, daß es sich vielleicht um behandelte, tote Juden handelt, … nein überhaupt so behandelte Juden – – aber die Zahl wurde halt immer nach oben frisiert. Nun 2 Absätze weiter: – – – Nur die kräftigsten Männer hatten Aussicht am Leben zu bleiben. – Zieht man noch all dieses in Betracht, so ist das absolut möglich, daß sich die tatsächlichen Verluste des Judentums von 1933 bis 1945 auf 6 Mill belaufen. Auch berufsmäßige [unleserlich] Statistiker stehen auf diesem Standpunkt. (Kommentar durcheinander…) … und er sagt über diesen Bericht, der hervorragende Statistiker Jakob Les[unleserlich]zynski, dieser Statistiker hatte eine andere Methode, indem er die entsprechende Kopfzahl der jüd Bevölkerung vor dem Kriege mit der nach dem Kriege verglich und dann gelangte auf dieser Basis in seinem Studium Bilanz der Ausrottung, New York 1946, zu gleichen Endsumme, nämlich 6 Mill Verluste. Um ganz genau zu sein, gibt L… die Zahl 5 978 000 an. Er sagt aber nicht dabei, daß L… selber sagt, die Überlebenden blieben nicht immer in ihren Heimatländern. In den Zahlen von Frankreich, Belgien Holland und Italien sind die Emigranten mit einbegriffen, usw… Dazu kommt, daß ich den Ziffer , die bzgl. Ungarn zum Beispiel angegeben sind, daß ich diesen Ziffern mehr Glauben schenken könnte, weil es sich um Ziffern handelt, die irgendwie festgelegt waren, zu einem Zeitpunkt

Draft translation

6 Volume 63 [HW: 66] Whereas according to German documents from April to July 1944 alone 430,000 Jews were deported to Auschwitz. (So here we are already at 430,000 Jew. losses) At that time there also existed in occupied Poland still densely populated ghettos and enormous labor camps.-But then in the two following years throughout all of Europe the Jews were hunted.- The credibility of this document should be beyond doubt and therefore it represents a certain basis, according to which one may say with fair certainty that the number of exterminated Jews amounts to 5 to 7 mill.-- Added to this is that this statistician who carried out these works for the most part at my office, himself by telegram or [HW: by] visits ascertained the number at the local offices and it is an extraordinarily important objection when I tell you that every office at that time gladly inflated the number upward, namely the number of the Jews located in its area, and also the number of the Jews treated in some form, whereby it is thereby not said that it perhaps concerns treated, dead Jews,.... no, in general Jews treated in such a way--but the number was just always inflated upward. Now 2 paragraphs further:------ Only the strongest men had prospect of remaining alive.-If one takes all of this further into consideration, then it is absolutely possible that the actual losses of Jewry from 1933 to 1945 amount to 6 mill. Professional [HW: [?real?]] statisticians too take this standpoint. (Commentary jumbled.....) [HW: precisely not 25 million ??] [HW: X] ....and he says about this report, the outstanding statistician Jakob Les[?st?]szynski, this statistician had a different method, in that he compared the corresponding head-count of the Jew. population before the war with that after the war and then arrived on this basis in his study Balance of the Extermination, New York 1946, at the same final sum, namely 6 mill. losses. To be quite precise, L.... gives the number 5,978,000. But he does not say thereby, that L... himself says, the survivors did not always remain in their home countries. In the figures for France, Belgium, Holland and Italy the emigrants are included, etc...... Added to this is that I could lend more credence to the figures which are given regarding Hungary for example, that I could lend more credence to these figures, because it concerns figures that were somehow fixed, at a point in time

when we had not yet set foot in that country at all. That was fixed here without any resentment, whereas when we then went to Hungary, State Secretary Dr. L.E. of course gave, subjectively and on his own account, a figure colored very much upward, in order to underpin and underline the extraordinary importance and urgency of the matter. A total that probably never existed. This total here, 1939, is of course far more credible. And that is probably what happened in every case, and that is how Ko… came to use false figures, for which he is not to blame, since he was given these false figures.

Questioner

One more question: is this report, which the author claims to have obtained or to know about, the original report?

Eichmann

That cannot be right, because the original report was destroyed. The duplicates that remained were also destroyed, because they were at my office. Did Ko… perhaps make notes of his own, or was Ko… questioned about this? Where did the report come from? If Ko… reproduced this material, that already introduces a source of error, because the account then spans the interval from 1942, the beginning of 1943, to after the war.

Questioner

The original report by Ko… was found in the office of the RF (Reichsführer-SS).

Eichmann

In the office of the RF (Reichsführer-SS)… Is there a photocopy? I would recognize it if it were here.

Questioner

You have no comment on the things read out to you?

Eichmann

Yes, it is very hard to say offhand, and besides, I am no statistician.

Questioner reads from the 1951 church report on the Jewish death toll

But perhaps this: if one wants to use a different method of estimation, one can add up the individual figures for the various extermination sites. That means adding together the total of those exterminated in the death camps, Belsec, Treblinka, So… and Auschwitz, and adding to that the chaotic extermination operations in the open air that were carried out in the Soviet Union. After such very exact investigation the Polish commission for war crimes established in the years 45/46 the following totals for the four camps first named. Belsec 600,000, So… 250,000, Treblinka 700,000, Hel… 300,000, together 1,850,000. As regards the appalling camp Auschwitz, its commandant Rudolf Hoess put the number of Jews gassed at 2 1/2 million Jews. About the chaotic exterminations

Listen · The death-camp figures · 0:27

Open page image and German
Page 666 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 666 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Wo wir dieses Land überhaupt noch nicht betreten haben. Das wurde hier ohne jegliches Resentiment festgelegt – – – währenddem als wir dann nach Ungarn, da hat selbstverst. der Staatssekr. Dr. L.E. subjektiv von sich aus eine sehr nach oben gefärbte Ziffer angegeben, um damit die außerordentliche Wichtigkeit und Dringlichkeit zu untermauern und zu unterstreichen. Eine Summe die wahrscheinlich nie existiert hat. Diese Summe hier, 1939, die ist hier selbstverst. viel glaubwürdiger. Und so ist das wohl in allen Fällen passiert und so hat sich Ko… falscher Zahlen bedient, für die er aber nichts kann, denn er bekam diese falschen Zahlen. Noch eine Frage – handelt es sich hier um diesen Bericht, dem ihn der Autor bekommen haben will, oder von dem er wissen will, um den Originalbericht? Dasselbe kann nicht stimmen, denn der Originalbericht wurde vernichtet. Die Doppel, die davon blieben, sind auch vernichtet worden, weil sie in meiner Dienststelle waren. Hat sich Ko… vielleicht selbst Aufzeichnungen gemacht oder wurde Ko… gehört zu dieser Sache??? Wie ist der Bericht her??? Und hat Ko… diese Sache wider gegeben, dann ist hier schon eine Fehlerquelle gegeben, denn die Wiedergabe ist dann mindestens von 1942 auf 43 Anfang, bis nach dem Kriegsgeschehen. Den Originalbericht von Ko… hat man gefunden im Amt des RF. Im Amt des RF… ist eine Fotokopie da? Ich würde ihn wiedererkennen, wenn er hier wäre… Auf diese vorgelesenen Sachen haben Sie kein Komentar? Ja, es ist auf Anhieb sehr schwer zusagen, außerdem bin ich kein Statiker Aber vielleicht hierauf; Wenn man sich einer anderen Schätzungsmethode bedienen will, kann man die einzelen Zahlen der verschiedenen Ausrottungsorte zusammenzählen. Es gilt also die Summe der Ausgerotteten in den Todeslagern, Belsec, Treblinka, So… und Auschwitz, zusammenzuzählen und die kaotischen Ausrottungsaktionen unter freiem Himmel die in der Sowjetunion durchgeführt wurden dazu zurechnen. Nach solcher sehr genauer Untersuchung erstellte die polnische Kommission für Kriegsverbrechen in den Jahren 45/46 in den vier erst genannten Lager nachfolgenden Gesamtsummen; Belsec, 600 000, So 250 000, Treblinka 700 000, Hel… 300 000, zusammen 1 850 000. Hinsichtlich des entsetzlichen Lagere Auschwitz bezifferte dessen Kommandant Rudolf Höß, die Zahl der vergasten Juden mit 2 1/2 Mill Juden. Über die kaotischen Ausrottungen

Draft translation

Where we have not even entered this country at all yet. That was established here without any resentment----whereas when we then [went] to Hungary, there of course the State Secretary Dr. L.E. subjectively of his own accord gave a figure colored very much upward, in order thereby to underpin and underscore the extraordinary importance and urgency. A sum that probably never existed. This sum here, 1939, that is here of course much more credible. And so this probably happened in all cases and so Ko..... made use of false numbers, for which however he cannot be [blamed], for he received these false numbers. One more question--is it a matter here of this report which the author claims to have received, or of which he wants to know, [is it] about the original report? The same cannot be correct, for the original report was d e s t r o y e d. The duplicates that remained of it were also destroyed, because they were in my office. Did Ko.... perhaps make notes himself, or was Ko.... consulted/heard on this matter??? How does the report come about??? And [if] Ko.. reproduced this matter, then here already a source of error is given, for the reproduction is then at least from 1942 to the beginning of [19]43, up until after the events of the war. The original report of Ko... was found in the office of the RF. In the office of the RF.... is there a photocopy? I would recognize it again if it were here...... On these things read out [to you] you have no comment? Yes, it is very hard to say offhand, besides I am no statistician [TS INS: ti]. But perhaps to this; If one wants to make use of another method of estimation, one can add up the individual numbers of the various extermination sites. It is thus a matter of adding up the sum of those exterminated in the death camps, Belzec, Treblinka, So... and Auschwitz, and adding to that the chaotic extermination actions under the open sky that were carried out in the Soviet Union. After such very exact investigation the Polish Commission for War Crimes established in the years 45/46 in the four first-named camps the following total sums; Belzec, 600,000, So 250,000, Treblinka 700,000, Hel.. 300,000, together 1,850,000. With regard to the terrible camp Auschwitz its commandant Rudolf Höss put the number of gassed Jews at 2 1/2 million Jews. About the chaotic exterminations

Questioner reads from the 1951 church report on the Jewish death toll

statistics exist only in fragments and must be gathered from reports of the SS operational groups (Einsatzgruppen), which were entrusted with such tasks and had to send their reports to Berlin. The last-mentioned method gives a total of 5,300,000, without taking into account deaths from hunger, illness and so on in the large ghettos of Poland and in the numerous, or rather countless, labour camps spread throughout Europe. We left the camp Meidanek entirely out of our calculations, because it was not specifically an extermination camp in the proper sense of the word.

Questioner

(Meidanek is otherwise described everywhere as the great extermination camp.)

I can say nothing about that, I did not run these matters.

Questioner

But they did send the reports to Berlin.

But certainly nicely doctored.

Eichmann

Certainly; Ko… will probably have demanded them. [Handwritten note below the answer: I never had such reports in my hands; they will have been in …! Possibly Müller knew them. They did not come to my section. In any case, I cannot remember it.]

Open page image and German
Page 667 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 667 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

sind Statistiken nur bruchweise vorhanden und Berichten der Einsatzgruppen der SS zu entnehmen, die mit derartigen Aufgaben betraut waren und dabei ihre Berichte nach Berlin schicken mußten. Bei der letztgenannten Methode gelangt zu einer Gesamtsumme von 5 300 000. ohne hierbei die Todesfälle durch Hunger, Krankheit und so weiter in den großen Ghettos bzw. losen Polen und in den zahlreichen über ganz Europa verteilten Arbeitslagern in Betracht zu ziehen. Das Lager Meidanek haben wir bei unseren Berechnungen gänzlich außer Acht gelassen, weil es kein ausgesprochenes Vernichtungslager im eigentlichen Sinne des Wortes war. (Meidanek wird sonst überall angegeben als das große Vernichtungslager) Ich kann ja dazu nichts sagen, ich habe diese Sachen ja nicht geführt. Aber sie haben ja die Berichte nach Berlin gegeben, Aber bestimmt schön frisiert… Sicherlich, und zwar wird die Ko… verlangt haben, wahrscheinlich. Ich habe nie solche Berichte in meinen Händen gehabt. Sie werden im [unleserlich] gewesen sein! Möglich, daß Müller sie kannte. An mein Dezernat kamen sie nicht. Ich kann mich jedenfalls nicht daran erinnern.

Draft translation

8 Volume 63 667 statistics are only available in fragments and can be gathered from reports of the Einsatz- groups of the SS, which were entrusted with such tasks and thereby had to send their reports to Berlin. With the last- mentioned method one arrives at a total sum of 5,300,000. without here taking into account the deaths from hunger, illness, and so on in the large ghettos [TS INS: or rather scattered] of Poland and in the numerous labor camps distributed all over Europe. The camp Meidanek we have entirely left out of our calculations, because it was not a pronounced extermination camp in the actual sense of the word. (Meidanek is otherwise everywhere given as the great extermination camp) I can say nothing about it, I did not run these matters after all. But you did give the reports to Berlin, But certainly nicely dressed up... Certainly, and namely the Ko.... will have demanded it, probably. [HW: I never had such reports in my hands. They will have been in the [?VK-department?]? Possible that Müller knew them. To my section they did not come. I cannot in any case remember it.]

Walter Hagen presents himself well and is exceptionally intelligent, but he is possessed by an insane ambition, unscrupulous in his efforts to reach his goals, and jealous of any competition. With him you always had the feeling that he did not do his work for the sake of the cause, but only to push himself to the forefront, to make a career. Of his past one knows only this much: he studied philosophy at the university in Vienna, and is said to have been very close to the Spann circle (?), but he writes about that in great detail in his book. He was also attacked on account of the connections he had during his university years, because of these dubious connections. By dubious connections one means connections with people who did not share our ideological outlook in any way.

Politically, he was already active in the SS in Austria during the so-called illegal period, and above all he worked in the illegal intelligence service. After the seizure of power he joined the Security Service in Vienna, then went first into Department III and later into Department VI, which became the Foreign Intelligence Department. Here too it was noticed that he surrounded himself with people, not full-time staff, admittedly, but so-called confidential informants, who did not share our political outlook in any way.

Every intelligence officer has to work with such people. It is in the nature of the work that one has to cooperate with people who, precisely because of their ancestry, religious views and other attitudes, are well placed in opposing circles. But one must not take these people's reports at face value. One must weigh them, assess them, and then form one's own judgment. Hoettl generally took these people's opinions at face value and in many cases passed them on as facts. He often had bitter disputes with my, his superiors, and had difficulties because of it.

He did not distinguish between people one uses as agents and so-called confidential informants, that is, people one can really trust. He adopted proposals of a political nature that such people needed and passed them on. Another fault of Hoettl's was his lack of discipline: his ambition led him constantly to seek direct connections with Berlin, with the Reich Security Main Office, bypassing his superiors in Vienna. He had the greatest difficulties over that too. What was particularly dangerous about Hoettl was that he passed reports from people who did not share our outlook straight on to Berlin, thereby distorting the picture one wanted to present to Berlin.

Because of this conduct of Hoettl's, proceedings were opened against him by the head of his office at the time. As I heard it, this office head had also learned the same thing from his predecessor, and that man too had been close to opening proceedings against Hoettl, only he was called up beforehand to an operational unit (Einsatzkommando). It was SS-Sturmbannführer Polte. He was hanged in Belgrade after the war.

The full-time staff that H. picked out for himself were decidedly below average. I assume that he took no people of stature or of a higher level because he was afraid they might outstrip him intellectually, and that he could then not make a career so easily. He took old comrades from the years of struggle, who as illegal fighters in those years were very capable and stood their ground. As far as I know them, they were decent people,

Open page image and German
Page 668 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 668 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Walter Hagen hat ein gutes Auftreten, ist überintelligent, jedoch von einem wahnsinnigen Ehrgeiz besessen, skrupellos in der Bestrebungen zur Erreichung seiner Ziele, und eifersüchtig auf jegliche Konkurrenz. Man hatte mit ihm immer das Gefühl daß er seine Arbeit nicht um der Sache willen macht, sondern nur um seine eigene Person in den Vordergrund zu schieben, um Karriere zu machen. Von seiner Vergangenheit weiß man nur soviel daß er auf der Univ. in Wien Philosophie studierte, dabei soll er dem Spannkreis (?) sehr nahe gestanden haben, aber darüber schreibt er in seinem Buch sehr eingehend. Er wurde auch auf Grund seiner Beziehungen, die während seiner Univ. Zeit hatte wegen dieser schrägen Beziehungen angefeindet. Unter schrägen Beziehungen versteht man Beziehungen zu Leuten, die in keinster Weise auf unserer weltanschaulichen Linie standen. Politisch war er in der sogen. illegalen Zeit bereits in Ösr. in der SS tätig, und vor allem arbeitete er im illegalen Nachrichtendienst. Nach der Machtübernahme trat er dem SD in Wien bei, und kam dann erst in die Abteilung III und dann später in die Abteilung Vl, die sich in die Abteilung Auslandsnachrichtendienst wandelte. Auch hier fiel wieder auf daß er sich mit Leuten umgab, zwar nicht hauptamtlicher Mitarbeiter, aber sogen. Vertrauensleute, die in keinster Weise auf unserer polit. Linie lagen. Jeder Nachrichtenmann muß mit solchen Leuten arbeiten, das liegt in der Sache, daß man mit Menschen zusammen arbeiten muß, die eben auf Grund ihrer Abstammung, religiöser und sonstiger Einstellung eben in Gegnerkreisen gut saßen, aber man darf die Meldungen dieser Leute nicht als bare Münze nehmen, man sie erwägen, beurteil und sich dann selbst ein Urteil daraus bilden. Höttel nahm die Meinung der Leute im allgemeinen als bare Münze und meldete das so in vielen Fällen als Tatsache weiter, und setzte sich oft meinen seinen Vorgesetzten schwer auseinander und hatte deswegen auch Schwierigkeiten. Er unterschied nicht zwischen Menschen die man als Agenten benützt und sogen. Vertrauensleuten, d.h. Menschen denen man wirklich ein Vertrauen schenken kann. Er übernahm Vorschläge polit. Natur die solche Leute brauchten und gab sie weiter. Ein weiterer Fehler Höttel war es, daß er disziplinlos war insofern daß er auf Grund seines Ehrgeizes immer direkte Verbindungen nach Berlin zum RSHA suchte und seine Vorgesetzten in Wien überging. Er hatte auch diesbzgl. die größten Schwierigkeiten. Und, gerade war es gefährlich bei Höttel der diese Meldungen von Leuten die in keiner Weise auf unserer Linie lagen direkt nach Berlin weite gab, und dadurch das Bild was man nach Berlin geben wollte, falsch darstellte. Auf Grund dieses Verhalten von Höttel wurde gegen ihn ein Verfahren eingeleitet von seinem damaligen Dienststellenleiter. So wie ich erfuhr hat dieser Dienststellenleiter auch von seinem Vorgänger dasselbe erfahren und dieser war auch nahe daran gewesen ein Verfahren gegen Höttel einzuleiten, wurde nur vorher zu einem Einsatzkommando einberufen, es war der SS Stbaf. Polte. (Dieser wurde nach dem Krieg in Belgrad aufgehangen) Die hauptamtlichen Mitarbeiter die H. sich aussuchte waren ausgesprochen schlechter Durchschnitt, ich nehme an, daß er keine Leute von Format oder höh. Niveau nahm da er Angst hatte, das sie in vielleicht in geistiger Hinsicht überrundeten, daß er dadurch nicht so leicht Karriere machen könnte. Er nahm alte Kameraden aus der Kampfzeit, die wohl als illegale Kämpfer in der Kampfzeit sehr tüchtig esren, und ihren Mann gestanden habe, soweit ich sie kenne, waren es ordentl. Leute,

Draft translation

[?Band 04?] [HW: 668] Walter Hagen has a good bearing, is over-intelligent, but possessed by an insane ambition, unscrupulous in his efforts to achieve his goals, and jealous of any competition. One always had the feeling with him that he does his work not for the sake of the cause, but only in order to push his own person into the foreground, in order to make a career. Of his past one knows only this much, that he studied philosophy at the University in Vienna, in doing so he is said to have stood very close to the Spann circle (?), but about this he writes very thoroughly in his book. He was also, on account of his relationships which he had during his University time [DEL: [illegible]] on account of these off-kilter relationships, attacked/made an enemy of. By off-kilter relationships one understands relationships [DEL: ik] to people who in no way stood on our ideological line. Politically he was already active in the SS in the so-called illegal period in Austria, and above all he worked in the illegal intelligence service. After the seizure of power he joined the SD in Vienna, and then first came into Department III and then later into Department VI, which transformed into the Foreign Intelligence Service department. Here too it again became conspicuous that he surrounded himself with people, admittedly not [DEL: as] full-time collaborators, but so-called confidential agents, who in no way lay on our political line. Every intelligence man must work with such people, that lies in the nature of the thing, that one must work together with people who, precisely on account of their descent, religious and other disposition, precisely sat well in enemy circles, but one must not take the reports of these people as ready coin, one must weigh them, judge and then form one's own judgment from it. Höttel took the opinion of the people in general as ready coin and passed this on in many cases as fact, and [DEL: [illegible]] often had serious disputes with my his superiors and had difficulties because of it. He did not distinguish between people whom one uses as agents and so-called confidential agents, that is, people to whom one can really grant trust. He took over proposals of a political nature which such people needed and passed them on. A further error of Höttel's was that he was undisciplined insofar as, on account of his ambition, he always sought direct connections to Berlin to the RSHA and bypassed his superiors in Vienna. He also had the greatest difficulties in this regard. And, it was precisely dangerous with Höttel who passed these reports from people who in no way lay on our line directly on to Berlin, and thereby falsely represented the picture that one wanted to give to Berlin. On account of this conduct of Höttel's, a proceeding was initiated against him by his then office-post leader. As I learned, this office-post leader also learned the same thing from his predecessor and this one had also been close to initiating a proceeding against Höttel, was only beforehand called up to a deployment commando (Einsatzkommando), it was SS-Stbaf. Polte. (This one was hanged in Belgrade after the war) The full-time collaborators whom H. picked out for himself were a decidedly poor average, I assume that he took no people of stature or higher level since he was afraid that they might perhaps outdo him in intellectual respect, that thereby he could not so easily make a career. He took old comrades from the fighting period, who indeed as illegal fighters in the fighting period were very capable, and had stood their man, as far as I know them, they were decent people,

and then he took on a few ethnic Germans from the Balkans who knew about conditions down there, but among these people too, as far as I know, there were no men of stature.

Now these proceedings brought it about that he was recalled once and transferred to the Waffen-SS as an ordinary soldier. There he joined a war correspondents' company. The whole affair of the proceedings petered out, and that was, as far as I remember, through Heydrich's death.

To Kaltenbrunner he already had connections from the years of struggle in Austria, but in particular to an SS-Sturmbannführer Waneck, who served in Office VI, and he was very well acquainted with Kaltenbrunner and a friend of his, and now Hoettl attached himself to him, and Waneck likewise to Hoettl. For Waneck was intellectually decidedly below average, whereas Hoettl, as I have already stressed, was exceptionally intelligent, and so Waneck needed Hoettl's mind, while Hoettl in turn needed Waneck's good relations with Kaltenbrunner. And so the two were an inseparable pair, and they stayed together to the very end.

Hoettl then made himself the favorite with Kaltenbrunner, and one has to stress it all the more today, that Hoettl was the man whom Kaltenbrunner supported and promoted and treated very, very well the whole time, and that it was precisely Hoettl who was one of the chief witnesses against Kaltenbrunner in Nuremberg. That too throws a telling light on Hoettl's character.

After Kaltenbrunner became chief of the Security Police, Hoettl came into the Reich Security Main Office, Office VI, Section E. Waneck was the section head and he was his deputy. The office was moved later to Vienna and at the end of the war to Alt Aussee.

After the war I met a few people from Hoettl's office who told me everything: H. had had large sums of money and foreign currency, they said, while they had to wander about the countryside without any means at all and hide from the Allies. A great hatred of Hoettl was evident throughout.

Questioner

Do you have any proof, from the accusations that have been voiced, that even at that time he was already working in other services?

Eichmann

No, that I cannot say, and I do not believe it either. For in his book he writes, or rather the author writes about him, "he did not leave his post and did not break his oath. As far as his position allowed him, he tried to make a contribution, however modest, for the German people, for his homeland, toward shortening a war that had become senseless and hopeless. In doing so he risked his life." That is one thing. Now I would not know where H. is supposed to have risked his life. Everyone did his duty where he was put. Besides, the book leaves it open whether he risked his life in the resistance, or whether he risked it in shortening the war, or in winning it.

I can only say that he was one of Kaltenbrunner's most devoted servants, a flatterer and so on. He consorted with dubious people, and that is what he will now describe today by saying that he talked with them in order to find a solution here or there, that the war could not end well this way. And today that means he staked his life, because if such conversations had come out, something would probably have happened to him. That is surely how it is meant.

Open page image and German
Page 669 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 669 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Und dann nahm er noch einige Volksdeutsche aus dem Balkan, die über die dortigen Zustände Bescheid wußten, aber auch unter diesen Leuten, soviel mir bekannt ist, waren keine Menschen von Format. Nun dieser Verfahren erwirkte, daß er einmal abberufen wurde und als gewöhnlicher Mann zur Waffen SS versetzt wurde, dort trat er in eine Kriegsberichtercomp. ein, die ganze Angelegenheit des Verfahrens verlief im Sande und zwar, soviel mir erinnerlich ist, durch den Tod Heydrichs. Zu Kaltenbrunner hatte er bereits Beziehungen aus der Kampfzeit in Östr., insbesondere aber zu einem SS Stbaf. Wanneck, der im Amt VI Dienst tat, und der war mit Kaltenbrunner sehr gut bekannt und befreundet, und an den hielt sich nun Höttel und sowohl auch Wanneck an Höttel. Denn Wanneck war in geistiger Hinsicht ausgesprochen schlechter Durchschnitt, während Höttel wie ich schon betonte, überintelligent war, und so brauchte nun Wanneck den Geist Höttels, während dieser wieder die guten Beziehungen Wannecks zu Kaltenbrunner brauchte. Und so waren die beiden ein nicht zu trennendes Zweigespann, die auch bis zum Schluß zusammen blieben. Höttel machte sich dann bei Kaltenbrunner lieb Kind, und um so mehr muß man es heute betonen, daß Höttel es war, der von Kaltenbrunner gefördert wurde, befördert wurde, sehr, sehr gut behandelt wurde die ganze Zeit, daß gerade Höttel in Nürnberg einer der Kronzeugen gegen Kaltenbrunner war. Das wirft auch so ein bezeichnendes Licht auf den Charakter von Höttel. Höttel kam ja, nachdem Kaltenbrunner Chef der Sipo wurde, in das RSHA, Amt VI Ref. E, Referatsleiter war Wanneck, und er war sein Vertreter. Die Dienststelle verlagerte ja später nach Wien und Ende des Kriegs ja nach Alt Aussee. Nach dem Krieg traf ich einige Leute aus der Dienststelle Höttels, die mir alles erzählten, H. hätte große Mengen Geld und Devisen gehabt, während sie nun ohne jede Mittel durch die Gegend irren müßten und sich vor den Allii verstecken müßten, es war in allem ein großer Haß gegen Höttel zu vermerken. Haben Sie irgendwelche Beweise durch die laut gewordenen Anschuldigungen, daß er auch schon damals in anderen Diensten arbeitete? Nein, das kann ich nicht sagen und ich glaube es auch nicht. Denn in seinem Buch schreibt er, bzw. der Autor über ihn, "er hat seinen Posten nicht verlassen und seinen Eid nicht gebrochen, er versuchte soweit es ihm seine Position ermöglichte für das deutsche Volk, für seine Heimat, einen wenn auch bescheidenen Betrag zur Abkürzung des sinn und aussichtslosen gewordenen Krieges zu leisten. Dabei hat er sein Leben riskiert". – Das ist eine Sache, ich wüßte nun nicht wo H. sein Leben riskiert haben soll, jeder hat seinen Dienst getan wo er hingesetzt wurde. Außerdem ist in dem Buch offen gelassen, hat er nun sein Leben riskiert im Widerstand oder hat er es riskiert in der Abkürzung, oder um den Krieg zu gewinnen. Ich kann nur sagen, daß er einer der ergebensten Diener von Kaltenbrunner war, ein Schmeichler war usw. – Er hat mit schrägen Leuten verkehrt, und das wird er heute nun so bezeichnen, daß er mit denen gesprochen hat um da oder dort eine Lösung zu finden, der Krieg kann so nicht gut ausgehen, – und das heißt heute, er hat sein Leben eingesetzt, denn wenn man auf solche Gespräche gekommen wäre, wäre ihm wahrscheinlich etwas passiert. So ist das sicher gemeint.

Draft translation

Bard 64 [HW: 609] And then he took on a few more ethnic Germans from the Balkans who knew about the conditions there, but also among these people, as far as I know, there were no persons of stature. Now this procedure brought it about that he was recalled at one point and transferred as an ordinary man to the Waffen SS, there he joined a war-correspondent company, the whole matter of the procedure petered out and indeed, as far as I recall, through the death of Heydrich. To Kaltenbrunner he already had connections from the time of struggle in Austria, but in particular to an SS Stbaf. [Sturmbannführer] Wanneck, who served in Amt VI, and he was very well acquainted and friendly with Kaltenbrunner, and to him Hoettel now held fast, and Wanneck likewise to Hoettel. For Wanneck was, intellectually speaking, decidedly a poor average, whereas Hoettel, as I have already stressed, was over-intelligent, and so now Wanneck needed Hoettel's mind, while the latter in turn needed Wanneck's good connections to Kaltenbrunner. And so the two were an inseparable team, who also stayed together until the end. Hoettel then made himself the darling with Kaltenbrunner, and all the more must one emphasize it today, that it was Hoettel who was promoted by Kaltenbrunner, was advanced, was treated very, very well the whole time, that it was precisely Hoettel in Nuremberg who was one of the crown witnesses against Kaltenbrunner. That too throws such a characteristic light on the character of Hoettel. Hoettel came, after all, after Kaltenbrunner became chief of the Sipo, into the RSHA, Amt VI Ref. E, section head was Wanneck, and he was his deputy. The office relocated, after all, later to Vienna and at the end of the war, after all, to Alt Aussee. After the war I met a few people from Hoettel's office, who told me everything, H. is said to have had large amounts of money and foreign currency, whereas they now had to wander through the region without any means and had to hide from the Allies, in everything a great hatred against Hoettel was to be noted. Do you have any proofs through the accusations that became loud, that even back then he was already working in other services? No, that I cannot say and I also do not believe it. For in his book he writes, or rather the author about him, "he did not leave his post and did not break his oath, he tried, as far as his position enabled him, for the German people, for his homeland, to render a — though modest — contribution to the shortening of the war that had become senseless and hopeless [TS INS: become]. In doing so he risked his life."------ That is one thing, I would now not know where H. is supposed to have risked his life, everyone did his duty where he was placed. Besides, in the book it is left open, did he now risk his life in the resistance or did he risk it in the shortening, [TS INS: or] in order to win the war. I can only say that he was one of the most devoted servants of Kaltenbrunner, was a flatterer etc.------- He associated with shady people, and this he will today then describe in such a way that he spoke with them in order to find a solution here or there, the war cannot turn out well this way, --- and that means today, he staked his life, for if such conversations had come to light, something would probably have happened to him. That is surely how it is meant.

That he staked his life in the resistance, nothing at all is known of that, and he did not stake his life in that way either. For when the other offices of the Security Police, the Security Service and the criminal police, and I stress the last of these, received the order to remain in Vienna, because Vienna was to become a fortress like Breslau, it was precisely at that time that Hoettl's office was moved to Alt Aussee. Very well, that was done with the approval of the responsible superiors.

In the course of his work he inevitably came into conflict with his highest superiors and strayed from the course being pursued. Kaltenbrunner cannot be meant in any way. Heydrich, yes, because under Heydrich the proceedings brought against him by his office were running at the time. With Schellenberg he always got on well; he had put himself in good standing through indirect reporting. This matter too is a lie insofar as it concerns Schellenberg and Kaltenbrunner. In this book as well, Schellenberg is always judged very favourably. Otherwise I do not know what to say at the moment.

Questioner

And do you have any more specific details about the proceedings?

Eichmann

Yes, just that he consorted with dubious people and let himself be influenced by them. And that he behaved without discipline, in that he constantly went around his office heads.

I have established that “Walter Hagen” in this book is evidently a pseudonym, namely for Hoettl. On that I have to establish, first, that the Hagen with whom I had dealings was called Herbert Hagen. Perhaps, over all these years, I forgot the name and assumed Walter Hagen instead of Herbert Hagen. I also assumed that this Hagen, with whom I made the journey to the Orient and who was temporarily my superior, had meanwhile transferred from Office VII to Office VI. But that is not right.

Second, concerning the Jewish family connections (Versippung) of his superior, the chief of the Security Police and the Security Service, Reinhardt Heydrich. When the author of this book relies on the statement of a master baker from some place X, who is said to have known of a gravestone bearing the name "Sarah Heydrich", and concluded from it that Heydrich must have been at least a half-Jew, because after the marking order the Jews had to take Jewish first names, the female persons the name Sarah, so that by German notions there was no person who is not a Jew and bears the name Sarah.

Now I have to say to that, that in all countries where devout Protestants and also Catholics lived, biblical first names were taken by preference. The name Sarah therefore means nothing at all. It was an intellectual blunder by Streicher and his sort if they already scented the Jew in any first name of that kind.

Questioner

But how does one explain that the birth registers from the year 1904 were suddenly no longer to be found in Heydrich's birth town?

Eichmann

I can tell you that. Around that time, in Germany, anyone who was

Open page image and German
Page 670 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 670 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Daß er sein Leben im Widerstand eingesetzt hätte, davon ist ja nun schon gar nichts bekannt, und sein Leben hat er so auch nicht eingesetzt, denn als die anderen Dienststellen der Sipo, SD, Kriminalpoliz. letztere betont, den Befehl bekamen in Wien su verbleiben, den Wien sollte Festung werden, so wie Breslau, gerade um diese Zeit wurde die Dienststelle Höttels nach Alt Aussee versetzt. Gut, das geschah mit Genehmigung der zuständigen Vorgesetzten. Im laufe seiner Arbeiten ist er swangsläufig, in Im Gegensatz su seinen höchsten Vorgesetzten, und von dem verfolgten Kurs geraten. Kaltenbrunner kann in keiner Weise gemeint sein. Mit Heydrich ja, denn mit Heydrich lief ja auch damals das Verfahren von seiner Dienststelle gegen ihn. Mit Schellenberg stand er sich immer, da hat er sich durch indirekte Berichterstattung gut gestellt. Auch diese Angelegenheit ist eine Lüge soweit sie Schellenberg und Kaltenbrunner betrifft. Auch in diesem Buch wird Schellenberg immer sehr gut beurteilt. Sonst weiß ich im Moment nicht su sagen. Und über das Verfahren haben Sie da nähere Punkte? Ja, nun daß er eben mit schrägen Leuten verkehrte und sich auch von ihnen beeinflussen ließ. Und daß er sich dissiplinlos benahm, indem er seine Dienststellenleiter ständig umging. Ich habe festgestellt, daß dieses Buch "Walter Hagen" sich offentsichtlich um ein Pseudonym handelt, und swar um Höttel. Dazu habe ich 1. festsustellen, daß dieser Hagen mit dem ich su tun hatte, Herbert Hagen geheißen hatte, – nun habe ich aber durch die vielen Jahre den Namen vielleicht vergessen und statt Herbert Hagen, Walter Hagen angenommen habe. Außerdem nahm ich an, daß dieser Hagen, mit dem ich die Orientreise machte, der auch mal vorübergehend mein Vorgesetzter war, daß dieser Hagen nun wohl inswischen von Amt VII sum Amt VI übergewechselt hat. Aber das stimmt ja nun nicht. – 2. Bezgl der jüd. Versippung, meines Vorgesetzten, dem Chef der Sipo und SD, Reinhardt Heydrich – wenn der Autor dieses Buches sich besieht auf die Aussage eines Bäckermeisters aus einem Orte X, der da Kenntnis hätte von einem Grabstein der da einen Namen "Sarah Heydrich" trägt, und er daraus schloß, daß Heydrich sumindest Halbjude gewesen sein muß, weil nämlich nachdem Kenntseichenswang sich die Juden jüd Vornamen anlegen mußten, und swar die weibl. Personen den Namen Sarah, es gab also nach deutschen Begriffen keinen Menschen der Nicht-Jude ist und den Namen Sarah trägt. – Nun muß ich aber dasu sagen, daß in allen Ländern, wo fromme Protestanten und auch Katholiken lebten, mit Vorliebe biblische Vornamen genommen wurden. Der Name Sarah bedeutet somit eigentlich gar nichts. Es war ein geistiger Irrläufer von Streicher und Konsorten wenn sie in irgendeinem Vornamen dieser Art schon den Juden witterten. Aber wie erklärt man sich aber daß man die Geburtsregister aus dem Jahre 1904 in der Geburtsstadt Heydrich plötzlich nicht mehr vorfand? Das kann ich Ihnen sagen, um jene Zeit galt in Deutschland derjenige, der mit

Draft translation

Band 64 [HW: 670] That he had risked his life in the resistance, of that now nothing at all is known, and he did not risk his life in that way either, for when the other offices of the Sipo, SD, criminal police, [emphasis on] the latter, received the order to remain in Vienna, for Vienna was to become a fortress, just like Breslau, precisely at this time Hoettel's office was transferred to Alt Aussee. Well, that happened with the approval of the [DEL: officex] competent superiors. In the course of his work he inevitably came, [TS INS: in] in opposition to his highest superiors, and into [conflict] with the course being pursued. Kaltenbrunner can in no way be meant. With Heydrich yes, for with Heydrich the proceedings from his office against him were also underway at that time. With Schellenberg he always got along well, there he positioned himself well through indirect reporting. This matter too is a lie insofar as it concerns Schellenberg and Kaltenbrunner. In this book too Schellenberg is always judged very favourably. Otherwise I do not know what to say at the moment. And about the proceedings, do you have there any more specific points? Yes, well that he consorted precisely with shady people and also let himself be influenced by them. And that he behaved in an undisciplined manner, in that he constantly went around his office heads. ----- I have established that this book "Walter Hagen" evidently involves a pseudonym, namely Hoettel. To this I have 1. to establish, that this Hagen with whom I had to do, had been called Herbert Hagen, ---- now however through the many years I have perhaps forgotten the name and instead of Herbert Hagen, assumed Walter Hagen. Besides I assumed that this Hagen, with whom I made the Orient journey, who was also temporarily my superior, that this Hagen now had probably in the meantime crossed over from Office VII to Office VI. But that is now not correct.----- 2. Regarding the Jewish kinship-by-marriage of my superior, the chief of the Sipo and SD, Reinhardt Heydrich--- if the author of this book relies on the statement of a master baker from a place X, who had knowledge of a gravestone which bears a name "Sarah Heydrich," and concluded from this that Heydrich must at least have been a half-Jew, because namely after the marking-compulsion the Jews had to give themselves Jewish first names, and namely the female persons the name Sarah, there was thus according to German concepts no person who is a non-Jew and bears the name Sarah..--- Now however I must say to this, that in all countries where devout Protestants and also Catholics lived, biblical first names were taken by preference. The name Sarah therefore actually means nothing at all. It was a mental stray of Streicher and consorts if in any first name of this kind they already scented the Jew. But how does one explain then that the birth registers from the year 1904 in Heydrich's city of birth were suddenly no longer to be found? That I can tell you, around that time in Germany the one who with

burdened with Sarah or Isaak through his forebears counted as of Jewish descent. It lies in the nature of things, and I have to say that I would probably have done it the same way. To take an example, if my mother, who unfortunately died very early, had borne the name Sarah, and that had been recorded on her gravestone in my home community, and I had stood through those years in the fight for Greater Germany, then I would have done exactly what Heydrich will have done.

I would have said to one of my faithful men, listen, it is like this and this and it is not true, but to avoid any difficulties I will have my mother's gravestone taken down, with her quiet agreement, and have a new one put up. Be so good and see to the matter. People do not understand that, you know it, perhaps they do not even want to understand it, but we want to put it straight in silence. And that is how it will have been with Heydrich.

Here the author writes that Heydrich even collected material on the Führer. On that I have to remark that I myself, on the instruction of my office chief, examined the descent of the Führer's diet cook, and I came to the conclusion that in the sense of the Nuremberg legislation she is to be described as one-thirty-second Jewish. This file was taken into safekeeping by Mueler. It was handled as GRS (a top-secret Reich matter) and it was handled by me personally, and only in a few small cases did I bring in my government councillors to any degree, because I could not do it alone.

Now the author writes that Heydrich did not exempt Hitler either from his surveillance system. Well, when a man like Heydrich is forced to put such a thing right before the public, with a good conscience beyond doubt, then it is understandable that this man says to himself, I have to answer for it before my conscience and I have answered for it. What people say is not true. But so as to be able to meet every possibility, I will now examine his surroundings for once.

It is entirely possible that it was out of this occurrence that I received the instruction to examine Hitler's diet cook, and lo and behold, she was one-thirty-second Jewish. Certainly, when the matter then became known, Heydrich will have been very pleased and will have said to himself, well now, look at that. Let anyone come to me now. My grandmother was indeed called Sarah, but she was a Catholic. My great-grandfather was a Catholic. They took the biblical names as first names, because their horizon was so narrowed by going to church every Sunday that they no longer knew any other first names at all.

How else would this "quarter Jew" Heydrich have married an East Frisian farmer's daughter from the island of Vehmagen? However one judges her, a German from the interior cannot judge an islander at all, and just as little the other way round. Frisians remain Frisians.

Questioner

Did you know the woman?

Eichmann

Yes, she was called Lina Heydrich. She was a very fair-blonde woman, a Frisian, genuinely blonde, a type quite unlike the Nordic-Dinaric types I otherwise knew and was fond of. In contrast to those, this woman meant nothing at all to me, because she was too cold for me, too distant, as a woman. As a person she could have been a good

Open page image and German
Page 671 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 671 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Sarah oder Isaak behaftet war, durch seine Vorfahren, als jüd. Abkömmling. Es liegt in der Natur der Dinge, und ich muß sagen, daß ich es wahrscheinlich auch so gemacht hätte. Ein Beispiel, wenn meine leider sehr früh verstorbene Mutter den Namen Sarah getragen hätte und das auf ihrem Grabstein in meiner Heimatgemeinde verzeichnet gewesen wäre, und ich in den Jahren in den Kampf um Großdeutschland gestanden bin, dann hätte ich genauso wie es Heydrich gemacht haben wird, irgendeinem meiner Getreuen gesagt, – hör' mal, es ist so und so und es stimmt nicht, aber um allfälligen Schwierigkeiten aus dem Weg zu gehen, werde ich im stillen Einverständnis meiner Mutter ihren Grabstein absetzen lassen, und werde einen neuen aufsetzen lassen. – Sei so gut und mache die Sache, die Menschen verstehen das nicht, das weißt du, sie wollen es vielleicht auch nicht verstehen, aber wir wollen es stillschweigend ins Gerade bringen. – Und so wird es mit Heydrich gewesen sein. – Hier schreibt der Autor, daß Heydrich sogar Material über den Führer gesammelt hätte, – dazu habe ich zu bemerken, – ich selbst habe auf Weisung meines Amtschef die Diätköchin des Führers abstammungsmäßig beleuchtet – und ich kam dann zu dem Ergebnis daß sie im Sinne der Nürnbergergesetzgebung als 32tel Jüdin anzusprechen ist. Diese Akte ist von Müler in Verwahr genommen worden, sie wurde als GRS behandelt und sie wurde von mir persönlich behandelt, und nur ein einigen kleinen Fällen habe ich meine Reg. Räte nur in etwa eingeschaltet, weil ich es allein nicht machen konnte. – Nun schreibt der Autor, Heydrich nahm auch Hitler von seinem Überwachungssystem nicht aus. – Nun wenn ein Mann wie Heydrich gezwungen wird, vor der Öffentlichkeit eine solche Sache zu berichtigen, mit guten Gewissen zweifelsohne, dann ist es verständlich daß dieser Mann sich sagt, ich habe es vor meinem Gewissen zu verantworten und auch verantwortet. Das stimmt nicht, was die Leute sagen. Aber um allen Möglichkeiten entgegen treten zu können, werde ich jetzt einmal meine Umgebung beleuchten. Es kann auch aus dieser Begebenheit heraus durchaus möglich sein, daß ich die Weisung bekam die Diätköchin von Hitler zu beleuchten und siehe da, sie war 32 tel Jüdin. Sicherlich als die Sache dann kund wurde, wird sich Heydrich sehr gefreut haben und wird sich gesagt haben, nun sieh mal an… jetzt soll mir noch einer kommen, meine Großmutter hieß wohl Sarah, aber die war Katholikin gewesen, mein Urgroßvater war Katholik, sie haben die biblischen Namen als Vornamen genommen, denn sie waren in ihrem Horizont so beschränkt durch die allsonntäglichen Kirchengänge, daß sie andere Vornamen gar nicht mehr kannten. Wie denn hätte sonst dieser "Viertel Jude" Heydrich eine ostfriesische Bauerntochte… der Insel Vehmagen geheiratet – ganz gleich wie man sie beurteilt, ein Binnendeutsch… kann ja einen Insulaner gar nicht beurteilen, genau so nicht umgekehrt, – Friesen bleiben Friesen. – Haben Sie die Frau gekannt? Ja, Lina Heydrich hieß sie – Sie war eine sehr, hellblonde Frau, Friesin eben, echt blond – ein Typ, im Gegensatz zu den mir sonst bekannten nordischen -dinarisch… Typen, die ich gerne mochte, – im Gegensatz dazu sagte mir diese Frau gar nichts, weil sie mir zu kalt war, zu entfernt, als Weib – als Mensch hätte sie eine gut…

Draft translation

[HW: (179] 4 Band 64 ...was afflicted with Sarah or Isaak, through his forebears, as a Jewish descendant. It lies in the nature of things, and I must say that I probably would have done it that way too. An example: if my mother — who unfortunately died very early — had borne the name Sarah and that had been recorded on her gravestone in my home community, and I in those years had been standing in the fight for Greater Germany, then I would have, just as Heydrich will have done, said to some one of my faithful ones — "listen, it is thus and so and it is not correct, but in order to get out of the way of any possible difficulties, I will, with the silent agreement of my mother, have her gravestone taken down, and will have a new one put up.— Be so good and do the thing, people do not understand that, you know that, perhaps they also do not want to understand it, but we want to bring it quietly into order.——" And so it will have been with Heydrich.—— Here the author writes that Heydrich even is supposed to have collected material about the Führer,—to that I have to remark,—— I myself have, on the instruction of my office chief, examined the Führer's diet-cook with regard to her descent ——and I then came to the result that she is, in the sense of the Nuremberg legislation, to be addressed as a 32nd-part Jewess. This file was taken into safekeeping by Müller [Mueler], it was treated as GRS and it was handled by me personally, and only in a few small cases did I involve my government councillors [Reg. Räte] somewhat, because I could not do it alone.— Now the author writes, Heydrich did not exempt Hitler either from his surveillance system.————— Now if a man like Heydrich is compelled to correct such a thing before the public, with a good conscience without doubt, then it is understandable that this man says to himself, I have to answer for it before my conscience and have also answered for it. That is not correct, what people say. But in order to be able to counter all possibilities, I will now for once examine my surroundings. It can, out of this occurrence, also be entirely possible that I received the instruction to examine Hitler's diet-cook and lo and behold, she was a 32nd-part Jewess. Certainly, when the matter then became known, Heydrich will have been very pleased and will have said to himself, now look at that....... now let someone else come to me, my grandmother was indeed called Sarah, but she had been a Catholic, my great-grandfather was a Catholic, they took the biblical names as first names, for they were so limited in their horizon by the every-Sunday church-goings that they no longer even knew any other first names. For how else would this "quarter Jew" Heydrich have married an East Frisian peasant-daughter of the island of Vehmagen [Vehmagen]—— no matter how one judges her, an inland-German cannot judge an islander at all, just as not the other way around,— Frisians remain Frisians.—— Did you know the woman? Yes, Lina Heydrich she was called—— She was a very, light-blonde woman, a Frisian indeed, genuinely blonde——— a type, in contrast to the otherwise-known-to-me Nordic-dinaric [-dinarisch] types, whom I liked, — in contrast to that this woman said nothing to me at all, because she was too cold for me, too distant, as a woman—————— as a human being she would have [a] good

mother, for she took part in all the comradeship evenings. She joined the fireside gatherings, as a good mistress of the house, a good mother to her children and a good wife to her husband. That is how I saw Lina Heydrich.

Questioner

The author writes:

Questioner reads from Hoettl's book

Pathological elements can probably also be shown in Heydrich's relation to his wife. She, a schoolteacher's daughter from the Baltic island of Vehmagen, may be comparable to the type of those evil, ambition-driven women out of the tales of the Edda. She spurred on the ambition of her husband, already richly present in him, and drove him forward impatiently.

Questioner

[Further reading aloud, as always fast and indistinct, by Mr. Lange.]

Eichmann

Then I am the psychoanalyst. Even if only a half-intellectual Austrian (Ostmärker), and I take the liberty of saying so because I count myself in that same circle: a half and apparently paltry intellectual has, in a foul hour, with a foul, sharp pen, written something against the North German he hates (Pifke). That is what made the blood rush to my head in my office, when an Austrian (Ostmärker) and a North German at my office were at loggerheads because they came from different regions. This is another of the foul results of that complex, and Hoettl has fallen prey to it.

Questioner

Do you know anything about Heydrich having discovered that the leader of the German Labour Front, Dr. Robert Ley, was non-Aryan?

Eichmann

No, I would have known that; I would have had to investigate it. If I had to investigate Hitler’s “diet cook”, who was, after all, his bride, they would also have assigned me this task if it had concerned a Robert Ley.

Questioner reads from Hoettl's book

Even his immediate chief, Himmler, Heydrich did not spare from his ancestry research.

[Further reading too fast.] [unintelligible on the recording]

had to look after.

Missing passage from Hoettl’s book
Not even his own immediate chief, Himmler, was immune from his ancestral witch-hunting, and it was a curious incident in the spring of 1933 that set him hot-foot on the trail. Himmler had just been appointed Chief of the Munich Police, when one day a man presented himself at Police Headquarters, saying that he was a cousin of the new Chief and wanted to see him. He proved to be a Jewish cattle dealer from Wuerttemberg, and the first reaction of the police was to lock him up forthwith for his impertinence. The complete self-assurance of the man caused them to hesitate, however, and, as a precautionary measure, to sound Himmler himself, before doing anything quite so drastic. To the utter astonishment of all concerned, Himmler declared that the man was under his protection and that not a hair of his head was to be touched. Right up to the time of Germany’s collapse there existed in the Munich Police Headquarters a G.R.S.-file (Geheime Reichssache—State Secret) on the episode in charge of a completely trustworthy official.

The Secret Front, pp. 37–38.

Eichmann

If that was how it had been, the file would never in the world have lain in a safe at a subordinate office. It would naturally have gone up to the highest authority, the Reich Security Main Office, and to the authority responsible for the Gestapo regional headquarters in Munich, Office IV of the Secret State Police Office (Gestapa), and there to the responsible section head, namely IV B 4, namely me. I give you that as the one proof, and that proof cannot be overturned. No, in that case the witness was wrong. If it is supposed to have been Heydrich’s adjutant, Gscheidler or Neumann, no: that would elevate the adjutant’s post to the skies. We could then have gone to the adjutant instead of to the Chief of the Security Police. No, that is not how it worked. Such an important matter is not kept at a subordinate office.

Open page image and German
Page 672 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 672 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Mutter sein können, denn sie nahm teil an allen Kameradschaftsabenden, – sie nahm teil an den Kaminaufenthalter, als eine gute Hausmutter, als eine gute Mutter ihre Kinder, als eine gute Frau ihres Mannes. So sah ich Lina Heydrich – Der Autor schreibt: Pathalogische Elemente lassen sich wohl auch im Verhältnis Heydrichs zu seiner Frau nachweisen. Sie, eine Lehrerstochter von der Ostseeinsel Vehmagen mag mit dem Typ jener bösen ehrgeizgepeitschten Weibern aus den Erzählungen der Edda vergleichbar sein. Sie stachelte den an sich schon reich vorhandenen Ehrgeiz ihres Mannes an und trieb ihn unguldig vorwärts (Weiteres Vorlesen, wie immer schnell und undeutlich von Herrn Lange – ) Dann bin ich der Psychoanalytiker; Wenn auch nur ein halb intuellekter Ostmärker, und ich nehme mir die Freiheit das zu sagen, weil ich mich zu diesen selben Kreis zähle, ein halber und scheinbar kümmerlicher Intellektueller hat nun in einer üblen Stunde mit einer üblen spitzen Feder eine Sache gegen den von ihm gehaßten Pifke geschrieben. Das ist das, was mir so in meinem Amtsseite das Blut in den Kopf treiben ließ, wenn sich ein Ostmärker mit einem Norddeut… auf meiner Dienststelle deswehen in der Wolle hatte, weil sie verschied. Landesherkunft waren. – Das ist wieder eines der üblen Resultate die aus diesem Komplex kommen und Höttel ist diesem Komplex verfallen. Ist Ihnen etwas bekannt, daß Heydrich entdeckt hat, daß der Führer der deutsch… Arbeitsfront, Dr. Robert Ley, nichtarisch war. – ? Nein, das hätte ich gewußt, dem hätte ich nachforschen müssen, denn wenn ich schon die "Diätköchin" von Hitler, die ja seine Braut war, beleuchten mußte, denn hätte man mich sich mit dieser Aufgabe beordert wenn es um einen Robert Leygk gegangen wäre. Selbst seinen unmittelb. Chef, Himmler, verschonte Heydrich mit seiner Ahnenforsch… nicht. (Weiteres Lesen zu schnell, unverständlich… zu betreuen hatte. – Wenn an dem so gewesen sei sollte, dann wäre diese Akte nie und nimmer in einem subalternen Panzerschrank gelegen, sondern sie wäre selbstverst. bis an die höchst… Stelle gekommen, nämlich an das RSHA, und die fürdis Gestapo Leit in München zuständige Instanz, Amt IV des Gestapa und hier wieder an den zuständigen Dezernent… nämlich IV B 4, nämlich ich. – Das sage ich Ihnen als einziger Beweis und diese… Beweis kann nicht umgestoßen werden. – Nein, dann war der Zeuge falsch. – Wenn es der Adjutant von Heydrich gewesen sein soll – Gscheidler oder Neumann – nein, damit wurde ja die Adjutantstelle in den Himmel hinein gehoben werden, dann hätten wir ja zum Adjutanten gehen können und nicht zum Chef der Sipo. – Nein, so ging das nicht, eine so wichtige Sache, wird nicht auf einer subalternen Dienststelle aufbewahrt.

Draft translation

could be mother, for she took part in all the comradeship evenings,—she took part in the fireside gatherings, as a good housemother, as a good mother [to] her children, as a good wife [to] her husband. Thus I saw Lina Heydrich------ The author writes: Pathological elements can probably also be demonstrated in Heydrich's relationship to his wife. She, a schoolteacher's daughter from the Baltic island Vehmagen, may be comparable to the type of those evil ambition-lashed women from the tales of the Edda. She [DEL: xxt] goaded on the already richly present ambition of her husband and drove him on impatiently (Further reading aloud, as always fast and indistinct by Herr Lange----) Then I am the psychoanalyst; Even if only a half-intellectual Ostmärker [East-marcher/Austrian], and I take the liberty of saying that because I count myself among this same circle, a half and apparently paltry intellectual has now in a foul hour with a foul sharp pen written a thing against the Piefke [derogatory for a Prussian/North-German] hated by him. That is what so made the blood rush to my head in my office side [Amtsseite?], when an Ostmärker on my duty station was at loggerheads with a North-Germ[an] over this, because they were of different regional origin.--- That is again one of the foul results [DEL: xxxxxxxx] that come out of this complex, and Höttel has fallen prey to this complex. Is anything known to you, that Heydrich discovered that the leader of the German Labor Front, Dr. Robert Ley, was non-Aryan.--? No, that I would have known, that I would have had to investigate, for if I already had to shed light on the "diet-cook" of Hitler, who was indeed his bride, then one would have ordered me [to search] with this task if it had been a matter of a Robert Ley[gk]. Even his immediate chief, Himmler, Heydrich did not spare with his ancestry-research. (Further reading too fast, unintelligible. . . . had to look after.---- If it should have been so, then this file would never and never have lain in a subaltern armored cabinet [safe], but rather it would as a matter of course have come up to the highest office, namely to the RSHA, and the instance responsible for the [HW: ge]Stapo Leit[stelle] in Munich, Amt IV [Department IV] of the Gestapa and here again to the responsible desk-officer [Dezernent], namely IV B 4, namely me.------That I tell you as the only proof and this proof cannot be overturned.-- No, then the witness was false.-----If it is supposed to have been Heydrich's adjutant------ Gscheidler or Neumann----no, thereby the adjutant post would be lifted up into the heavens, then we could indeed have gone to the adjutant and not to the Chief of the Sipo.----No, it did not go like that, such an important matter is not kept at a subaltern duty station.

Questioner

It is not the safekeeping that is at issue, but the source, and that is Heydrich's adjutant.

No, there is no such thing. An adjutant has nothing whatever to do with substantive matters. A Jewish author can make that up out of thin air, a vile hack can claim it, but an adjutant anywhere in the world has nothing to do with substantive matters.

Questioner

That is not right. Dr. Neumann did have to do with various substantive tasks.

No, he was not a desk officer.

Yes, but he was in the know.

Eichmann

Yes, that I know. An adjutant knows everything, but he is not a desk officer, and there are no files and no documents in his possession.

Questioner

It is not being claimed at all that he had the things in his possession. He did work on them, and he makes assertions with regard to the Ley case, then an attempted break-in into the chancellery of the supreme Party judge in order to establish Ley's non-Aryan descent, and thirdly the matter with Himmler.

Eichmann

But without any file at all? There is no documentary proof?

Questioner

The author wrote it on the basis of information from Heydrich's adjutant. In individual cases it is also said where the documents are, once about the investigation into Hitler, and in the Billy case, and that was the daughter of his stepsister, whom he loved and who took her own life, who had a relationship with Mauris, an old fighter who was also of Jewish descent, and she then took her own life. And so on.

Eichmann

Documents? Documents?

Questioner

Yes, the documents that are at the Gestapo regional headquarters in Munich, that is this incident about the Jewish cattle dealer Himmler.

Eichmann

Yes, but now, such documents about a Jewish cattle dealer Himmler and the like, those could never have lain at the Gestapo regional headquarters in Munich, and never have been allowed to. They would have known nothing else to do but push this file off and pass it upward. Here we can nail the author to the cross where he belongs.

Questioner

Yes, I also assume that Himmler would surely have taken this file to himself.

Eichmann

Yes, that is what I mean. Otherwise I would really have been a complete fool in all the 11 years in which I held office. If I already got an "Eva Braun" to work on, then I would have had such a matter too. If a Gestapo regional headquarters in Munich already had it, then I would at least have had it as well.

Open page image and German
Page 673 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 673 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Es ist ja nicht von der Aufbewahrung die Rede, sondern von der Quelle; und das ist der Adjutant Heydrichs Nein, das gibt es nicht, ein Adjutant hat mit sachlicher Dingen überhaupt nichts zu tun. Das kann sich ein jüd. Autor aus den zehn Finger saugen, daß kann ein wüster Schreibling behaupten, aber ein Adjutant hat mit sachlichen Dingen auf der ganzen Welt nichts zu tun. Das stimmt nicht, Dr. Neumann hatte mit verschied. sachlichen Arbeiten zu tun. Nein, es ist kein Sachbearbeiter gewesen – Ja, aber er wußte Bescheid… Ja, das weiß ich, ein Adjutant weiß alles, aber er ist kein Sachbearbeiter und in seinem Besist befinden sich keine Akten und Unterlagen. Es wird ja auch gar nicht behauptet, daß er die Sachen im Besits hatte, er hat sie aber bearbeitet und er behauptet einmal dbzgl. den Fall Ley, dann einen Einbruchsversuch in die Kanzlei des obersten Parteirichters um die nicht-arische Abstammung Ley su feststellen und drittes die Angelegenheit mit Himmler. Aber ohne jede Akte? Es ist kein aktenmäßiger Beweis vorhanden? Auf Grund von Informationen des Adjutanten Heydrichs hat der Autor das geschrieben. Es wird auch in einselen Fällen gesagt, wo die Unterlagen sind – und swar einmal über die Nachforschung über Hitler und swar in dem Fall Billy und swar war daß die Tochter seiner Stiefschwester, die er geliebt hat und die Selbstmord gegangen hat, die mit Mauris, einem alten Kämpfer, der auch jüd. Abstammung war, ein Verhältnis hatte und sie beging darauf Selbstmord. Etc… Unterlagen? Unterlagen? Ja, die Unterlagen die bei de Stapo Leit München sind, ist dieser Vorfall über den jüd. Viehhändler Himmler. Ja, nun aber, solche Unterlagen über einen jüd. Viehhändler Himmler odgl. die hätten doch nie bei der Stapo Leit in München liegen können und dürfen Die hätten ja gar nichts anderes gekannt, als diese Akte abzustoßen und abzuwimmeln nach oben. – Hier können wir den Autor festnageln an das Kreuz an das er hingehört Ja, ich nehme auch an, daß Himmler diese Akte sicher an sich genommen hätte. Ja, das meine ich – sonst wäre ich wirklich ein kompletter Trottel gewesen in all den 11 Jahren, in denen ich amtierte. Wenn ich schon eine "Eva Braun" zur Bearbeitung bekam, dann hätte ich auch eine solche Sache gehabt, wenn sie schon eine Stapo Leit München hatte, dann hätte ich sie zumindesters auch gehabt.

Draft translation

6 Volume 64 [HW: 673] It is not a question of the safekeeping, but of the source; and that is Heydrich's adjutant. No, that does not exist, an adjutant has nothing whatsoever to do with substantive matters. A Jew[ish] author can suck that out of his ten fingers, a wild scribbler can claim that, but an adjutant in the whole world has nothing to do with substantive matters. That is not right, Dr. Neumann had to do with various substantive tasks. No, he was not a desk-officer/case-handler [Sachbearbeiter]-- Yes, but he was in the know...... Yes, that I know, an adjutant knows everything, but he is not a case-handler [Sachbearbeiter] and in his possession there are no files and documents. It is also not at all claimed that he had the things in [his] possession, but he did process them and he claims [?once?] concerning the Ley case, then an attempted break-in into the chancellery of the supreme Party judge in order to establish Ley's non-Aryan descent, and thirdly the matter with Himmler. But without any file? There is no documentary/file-based proof present? On the basis of information from Heydrich's adjutant the author wrote that. It is also said in [individual/some] cases where the documents are - and namely once about the investigation about Hitler and namely in the Billy case and namely it was that the daughter of his stepsister, whom he loved and who committed suicide, who had a relationship with Mauris, an old fighter [Kämpfer/veteran Party member], who was also of Jew[ish] descent, and thereupon she committed suicide. Etc...... Documents? Documents? Yes, the documents that are at the Stapo Leit[stelle] Munich, is this incident about the Jew[ish] cattle-dealer Himmler. Yes, now but, such documents [?about?] a Jew[ish] cattle-dealer Himmler or the like, those could never have lain and been permitted to lie at the Stapo Leit[stelle] in Munich. They would have known nothing other than to get rid of this file and to pass it off/pass it up to above.----- Here we can nail the author to the cross to which he belongs. Yes, I also assume that Himmler would surely have taken this file to himself. Yes, that is what I mean--- otherwise I would really have been a complete fool in all the 11 years in which I was in office. If I already received an "Eva Braun" for processing, then I would also have had such a matter; if a Stapo Leit[stelle] Munich already had it, then I would at least have had it too.

For that reason alone: the head of the Gestapo regional headquarters would have got rid of it. I know my people only too well.

But I ask myself, what does the author intend by dragging his former superiors into the gutter like that, into the muck like that. He lived with them for years, drew his pay. He could have gone away, if he had wanted to.

Questioner

He wanted to make a career, after all.

Eichmann

Yes, but it annoys me. He was not forced to stay with it. But it is as I said, he is an Austrian (Ostmärker) and he is now trying in this way to stir things up against the North Germans. I know these people too well.

[Many thanks, but I already knew that the tape is number 64.]

Questioner

Now with regard to witness statements, there is some interesting material there. For example, here a statement by a professor of biology at the medical faculty in Strasbourg, Mark Klein. He says for instance that the transport, apart from the mood, took place under relatively good conditions, almost without losses.

[Typed as notes in the transcript: Jewish deportation transport from France.]

Eichmann

So once again a proof for my assertions, that guidelines existed and that when one kept to them, everything went in order.

Questioner

On the other hand he states that he had some chronic cases in his wagon, and people frail with age. That of course speaks against it.

Eichmann

That would then be a parallel case to Dr. Blau, who was not deported because he was ill. And here a Jewish physician who accompanied the transports and now judges it this way. If that was in the year 44, how much more orderly must the trains have run earlier, when there was still far more calm.

Questioner

Then he speaks about an SS camp doctor, Dr. Roge.

Eichmann

I don't know him.

Questioner

Then in July 1944 the man was in the pharmacy occupied with sorting prostheses, and saw from the maker's stamp that these things almost without exception came from Hungary.

[Typed as notes in the transcript: July 1944, Auschwitz.]

Eichmann

That means, then, that Jews were delivered with prostheses?

Questioner

Yes. Arms, legs, hands, corsets, orthopedic shoes.

Open page image and German
Page 674 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 674 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Schon deswegen weil sie der Stapo Leitsteller Leiter abgewimmelt hätte, da kenne ich meine Leute nur zu genau. Aber ich frage mich, was bezweckt der Autor damit, daß er seine ehem. Vorgesetzten nun so in die Gosse, so in den Dreck zieht, – er hat jahrelang mit ihnen gelebt, seinen Sold bezogen – er hätte doch weggehen können, wenn er es gewollt hätte. – Er wollte ja Karriere machen… Ja, aber es ärgert mich – er ist ja nicht gezwungen worden dabei zu bleiben. – Es ist aber schon so wie ich sagte, er ist ein Ostmärker und er versucht nun auf diese Art und Weise gegen die Norddeutschen anzusticken. – Ich kenne diese Leute zu gut. – (Vielen Dank, aber ich wußte bereits daß das Band die Nummer 64 hat. – ) Nun bzgl. Zeugenaussagen, gibt es da einiges interessantes. – ZB. hier eine Aussage von einem Prof. für Biologie an der Med. Fak. in Straßburg, Mark Klein; Der sagt zB, daß der Transport, abgesehen von der Stimmung, unter relativ guten Bedingungen, fast ohne Verluste statt fand. Juden Deportationstransport aus Frankreich – Also wieder einmal ein Beweis für meine Behauptungen, daß Richtlinien bestanden und wenn man sich danach hielt, alles in Ordnung verlief. – Andererseits gibt er an, daß er einige chronische Fälle in seinem Waggon hatte und Altersschwache, – das spricht natürlich nun dagegen Das wäre also ein Parallelfall zu dem Dr. Blau, der nicht deportiert wurde weil er krank war – und hier ein jüd. Arzt, der die Transporte begleitete und nun so urteilt. – Wenn das im Jahr 44 war, um wieviel ordentlicher müssen dann die Züge früher gefahren sein, wo doch viel mehr Ruhe noch war. Dann spricht er über einen SS Lagerarzt Dr. Roge; Kenne ich nicht. – Dann Juli 1944 war der Mann in der Apotheke mit dem Sortieren von Prothesen beschäftigt, und sah durch den Firmenstempel, daß eben diese ganzen Sachen fast ausnahmslos aus Ungarn kamen – Juli 1944 Auschwitz Das heißt also, daß Juden mit Prothesen eingeliefert wurden? Ja – Arme – Beine – Hände – Korsetts – orthopädische Schuhe. –

Draft translation

7 Volume 64 [HW: 674] Precisely because he would have fended off the Stapo control-post leader ["Leitsteller Leiter"], for I know my people only too well. But I ask myself, what does the author intend by it, that he now drags his former superiors so into the gutter, so into the muck, --- he lived with them for years, drew his pay----- he could after all have gone away, if he had wanted to.------ He wanted to make a career, after all... Yes, but it annoys me---- he was not after all forced to stay on with it.-- But it is indeed as I said, he is an Ostmärker [Austrian] and he now tries in this way to stir up against the North Germans.---- I know these people too well.-- ----------- (Many thanks, but I already knew that the tape has the number 64.--- ) ---------- Now regarding witness statements, there is some interesting material there.---- E.g. here a statement from a Prof. of Biology at the Med. Faculty in Strasbourg, Mark Klein; He says e.g. that the transport, apart from the mood, took place under relatively good conditions, almost without losses. Jewish deportation transport from France-- So once again a proof for my assertions, that guidelines existed and when one adhered to them, everything proceeded in order.---- On the other hand he states that he had some chronic cases in his wagon and infirmity of age,-that of course now speaks against it That would then be a parallel case to the Dr. Blau, who was not deported because he was ill---and here a Jewish physician, who accompanied the transports and now judges thus.----If that was in the year 44, by how much more orderly must then the trains have run earlier, where there was after all much more calm still. [TS INS: SS] Then he speaks about a camp physician Dr. Roge; I don't know him.---- Then July 1944 the man was in the pharmacy occupied with the sorting of prostheses, and saw by the company stamp, that precisely these whole things almost without exception came from Hungary ---July 1944 Auschwitz That means then, that Jews were delivered/admitted with prostheses? Yes--arms-legs-hands- corsets-orthopedic shoes.----

That I do not understand. But it was the case that Hungary too had gone through the First World War, and that in Hungary we did not determine at all who was transported away. That was the job of the Hungarian gendarmerie. Our regulations were that war veterans and so on were to be exempted from the transport. Only perhaps the Hungarian gendarmerie did not have such regulations.

Questioner

Did a camp Birkenau also belong to Auschwitz?

Eichmann

Yes, I believe the Heinkel works were housed there, but I am not sure.

Questioner

Then he tells of a Jew who is supposed to have been an executioner in Theresienstadt, and who told him about executions in Theresienstadt.

Eichmann

But that is a lie. I cannot remember that there is supposed to have been an executioner in Theresienstadt. After the big row Günther made for me in Theresienstadt, when he had a few Jews hanged, no Jews at all were killed in Theresienstadt, that did not lie in the sense of the solution that was created for Theresienstadt.

Questioner

Then he writes further of gassings and burnings in Birkenau, and further of a big operation on 1 October 1944 that cost thousands their lives.

Eichmann

But by that time the stop order from the RF (Reichsführer-SS) was already in force.

Questioner

Then he says Auschwitz 1 was a hell camp, although life was bearable for the survivors, and this in spite of the conditions he goes on to describe afterward.

An SS-Hauptsturmführer Weber? An SS-Untersturmführer Muench?

Eichmann

No, I do not know any of these people at all except Hoess.

Questioner

Then he speaks further about the first penicillin experiments at Auschwitz. Then further:

Questioner reads from Marc Klein's testimony

besides, such a laboratory was a safe shirker’s billet for the SS, where they could lead an easy life far from the fighting and the dangers of war, while things were very lively and dangerous on the various fronts. The number and variety of examinations to be carried out were inflated beyond belief. The difficult part in this laboratory was simply the cleaning after this procedure and the tiresome inspection, that is, the subsequent check by the Unterführer to see whether it was clean.

Questioner

He also describes a command ring (Kommandoring), and describes how it went each day.

Questioner reads from Marc Klein's testimony

In the morning the orchestra began to play marching music, and the march out of the camp to the various work sites began. In this spectacle, seeing thousands of prisoners march off every morning, there is a certain grandeur, tragic …

The morning march was calming and healthy, especially when on fine winter days the hoarfrost burned in the sun.

Open page image and German
Page 675 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 675 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Das verstehe ich nicht – aber es war ja so daß Ungarn ja auch den 1. Weltkrieg mitgemacht hat und daß wir in Ungarn ja gar nicht bestimmten wer abtransportiert wird, das war ja die Aufgabe der ung. Gend. gewesen. – Unsere Bestimmungen waren ja Kriegsteilnehmer usw. sind vom Transport auszunehmen. Nur vielleicht hatte die ung. Gend nicht solche Bestimmungen. – Gehörte zu Auschwitz auch ein Lager Birkenau? Ja, ich glaube dort waren die Heinkelwerke untergebracht, aber ich bin nicht sicher. Dann erzählt er von einem Juden, der Henker gewesen sein soll in Theresienstadt und der ihm erzählte über Hinrichtungen in Theresienstadt. Das ist aber erlogen – ich kann mich nicht erinnern daß es in Theresienstadt einen Henker gegeben haben soll – Es sind nach dem großer Knatsch, den mir Günter in Theresienstadt gemacht hatte, indem er ein paar Juden hängen ließ, ja in der Theresienstadt überhaupt keine Juden getötet worden, das lag ja gar nicht im Sinn der Lösung, die für Theresienstadt geschaffen wurde, – Dann schreibt er weiter von Vergasungen und Verbrennungen in Birkenau und weiter von einer großen Aktion am 1. Okt 1944, die Tausenden das Leben kostete. – Aber um diese Zeit bestand ja schon der RF Stopbefehl. – Dann sagt er Auschwits 1 war ein Höllenlager, obwohl das Leben erträglich war für die Überlebenden, und dies trotz der Zustände, der er dann nachher beschreibt – Ein SS Hstf. Weber? ein SS Ustf. Münch? Nein, ich kenne überhaupt keinen von diesen Leuten außer Höß Dann spricht er weiter über die ersten Penicillinversuche in Auschwits – dann weiter – außerdem war so ein Laboratorium für die SS ein sicherer Drückposten, an dem sie den Kriegsgeschehen fern und den Kriegsgefahren fern, ein leichtes Leben führen konnten, während es doch an den verschied. Fronten recht lebhaft und gefährlich zu ging. Zahl und Vielseitigkeit der vorzunehmenden Untersuchungen wurden unwahrscheinlich aufgebauscht. – Der schwarze Punkt in diesem Laboratorium war lediglich die Reinigung nach dieser Prozedur und die leidige Abnahme (d.h. Kontrolle durch den Unterf. nachher ob es auch sauber –) Er schildert auch einen Kommandoring und er schildert wie das nun täglich vor sich ging morgens – begann das Orchester Marschmusik zu spielen, der Ausmarsch aus dem Lager zu den verschied. Arbeitsstellen begann, in diesem Schauspiel tausende von Häftlingen jeden Morgen abmarschieren zu sehen, liegt eine gewisse Größe tragischer… Der Morgenmarsch war beruhigend und gesund, besonders wenn an schönen Wintertagen der Rauhreif in der Sonne brannte.

Draft translation

Band 64 [HW: 675] That I do not understand---- but it was indeed so that Hungary too took part in the 1st World War and that we in Hungary did not at all determine who is transported away, that was indeed the task of the Hung. Gend. [gendarmerie] that had been.-- Our regulations were indeed that war participants etc. are to be exempted from the transport. Only perhaps the Hung. Gend did not have such regulations.---- Did a camp Birkenau also belong to Auschwitz? Yes, I believe the Heinkel works were housed there, but I am not sure. Then he tells of a Jew who is supposed to have been an executioner in Theresienstadt and who told him about executions in Theresienstadt. But that is a lie--- I cannot remember that there is supposed to have been an executioner in Theresienstadt----After the big row that Günter had made for me in Theresienstadt, in that he had a few Jews hanged, indeed in Theresienstadt no Jews at all were killed, that did not lie at all in the sense of the solution that was created for Theresienstadt,--- Then he writes further of gassings and burnings in Birkenau and further of a big Aktion [action] on 1 Oct 1944, which cost thousands their lives.---- But around this time the RF [Reichsführer] stop-order already existed.---- Then he says Auschwitz 1 was a hell-camp, although life was bearable for the survivors, and this despite the conditions that he then afterward describes ---- An SS Hstf. [Hauptsturmführer] Weber? an SS Ustf. [Untersturmführer] Münch? No, I do not know any of these people at all except Höss Then he speaks further about the first penicillin experiments in Auschwitz--- then further--- that for the [xfuerxdiexx ---] besides, such a laboratory was for the SS a safe cushy post [Drückposten], at which they, far from the war events and far from the war dangers, could lead an easy life, while it nevertheless went quite lively and dangerous at the various fronts. Number and variety of the investigations to be undertaken were improbably inflated.-- The black point in this laboratory was merely the cleaning after this procedure and the tiresome acceptance/inspection (i.e. control by the Unterf. [Unterführer] afterward whether it was also clean ---) He also depicts a Kommandoring [command ring] and he depicts how this now proceeded daily in the mornings- the orchestra began to play march music, the march-out from the camp to the various work-places began, in this spectacle to see thousands of prisoners marching off every morning, there lies a certain greatness [Größe] more tragic........... The morning march was calming and healthy, especially when on beautiful winter days the hoarfrost burned in the sun.

Questioner

Then

Questioner reads from Marc Klein's testimony

the critical moment at evening roll call. There I saw several hangings. The most striking was the execution of four Polish patriots in December 1944, which took place in front of the glittering Christmas tree in the middle of the camp.

Questioner

Then he speaks about football, baseball, water sports, cabaret performances, film screenings and concerts.

Yes, that's exactly what I already told you. Even the Hamburg mayor wrote at the time that the rations in the concentration camps were richer in calories than what the Allies let the Germans have shortly after 1945.

Questioner

Then he speaks further about the extensive library at Auschwitz that was available to the prisoners, and about how well informed they were on events at the fronts, from German and foreign radio broadcasts they had. Then that at Buchenwald the army reports were broadcast openly and could be heard throughout the camp. You could hear them talking politics, and some even marked the Allied advance on a map, and so on. On 1 (unclear mark) January 1945 they left the Auschwitz camp.

Then further about the informing and denunciation, and how they sometimes lynched an informer who, rightly or wrongly, was handed over to the revenge of the whole community. Then we have here a report from an assistant at the surgical clinic in Strasbourg on Auschwitz II Birkenau, in which he speaks about the makeup of the camp population, drawn from all of occupied Europe, from Norway, Belgium, Holland, France, Italy, Yugoslavia, Greece, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Poland, Russia and Hungary.

Questioner reads from a Strasbourg surgeon's testimony

Natzweiler seems to have been used particularly for anatomy and other purposes. At Birkenau the six crematoria burned day and night, yet they were no longer enough for the rush from Hungary in the summer of 1944, and so the bodies were burned in a large pit in the middle of the birch wood. The whole Gypsy camp, four thousand men, women and children, was sent to the gas chambers in a single August night. The method seemed perfect.

A narrow rail track ran right up to the gas chambers, and on it the whole transport, loaded at Dransi (?) or Budapest, could be unloaded directly at the killing site. The deportees had to march past an SS commission, and then the SS men had those condemned to death step forward a few paces, and they had already arrived at the place where they were gassed. Thanks to this system the bodies reached the ovens without any loss of time. In July 1944 the record figure of 22,000 cremations a day was reached.

The special detachment (Sonderkommando), made up of prisoners, revolted in the summer of 1944, because the prisoners concluded from various signs that now they too were to be sacrificed. They refused to leave their block and even set part of the gas chambers on fire, but the machine guns and submachine guns of the SS appeared from every direction and put the rising down in a moment. The two doctors of the special detachment (Sonderkommando) tried to kill themselves. One died, the other could be saved and testifies as a witness at the Lüneburg trial.

Open page image and German
Page 676 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 676 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Dann der kritische Moment beim Abendapell, – da erlebte ich einige Hinrichtungen durch den Strang, am eindrucksvollsten war die Hinrichtung von 4 poln. Patrioten im Dez. 44, die vor dem funkelnden Weihnachtsbaum mitten im Lager stattfand. Dann spricht er über Fußball, Baseball, Wasser-Sport, Kabarettvorstellungen, Filmvorführungen, Konzerte Ja das ist es ja was ich Ihnen schon sagte, daß selbst der Hamburger Oberbürgermeister damals geschrieben hat, daß selbst die Rationen in den KL kalorienmäßig reicher gewesen sind, als das was die Allii den Deutschen kurz nach 45 zukommen ließen. Dann spricht er weiter über die ausgebreitete Bibliothek in Auschwits, die den Häftlingen zur Verfügung stand, genau so wie sie auch Bescheid wußten über die verschied. Ereignissen an den Fronten, deutsche und ausl. Radioübertragungen die sie hatten, Dann daß in Buchenwald die Heeresberichte öffentlich übertragen wurden und im ganzen Lager zu hören waren. Man hörte sie über Politik reden, manche zeigten sogar das Vorrücken der Allii auf einer Landkarte an, usw……. Am 1. Jan 1945 verließen sie das Lager Auschwits. Dann weiter über die Angeberei des Denuziantentums, – wie sie manchmal einen Denuzianten, der mit Recht oder Unrecht einer Rache der ganzen Gemeinschaft ausgeliefert wurde, lynchten. – Dann haben wir hier von einem Assisten der Chirug. Klinik in Straßburg über Auschwits II Birkenau einen Bericht, worin er spricht über die Lagerbevölkerung Zusammensetzung aus dem ganzen besetzten Europa, aus Norwegen, Belgien, Holland Frankreich, Italien, Jugoslawien, Griechenland, Czechoslowakei, Rumänien, Polen Rußland und Ungarn. Natzweiler scheint für Anatomie und sonstige Zwecke besonders verwendet worden sein. – In Birkenau brannten Tag und Nacht die 6 Krematorien, doch sie genügten dem Ansturm im Sommer 1944 aus Ungarn nicht mehr, und so wurden die Leichen mitten im Birkenwald in einer großen Grube verbrannt. Das ganze Zigeunerlager 4 000 Männer Frauen und Kinder wurden in einer Augustnacht in die Gaskammern geschickt. Die Methode schien vollkommen, ein schmaler Schienenstrang lief bis an die Gaskammern heran, und auf dieser konnte nun der ganze Transport, der in Dransi (?) oder Budapest eingeladen war direkt an der Hinrichtungsstelle ausgeladen werden. Die Verschleppten hatten an einer SS Kommission vorüber zu marschieren und dann ließen die SS Leute die zum Tode Verurteilten ein paar Schritte vortreten und schon waren sie dort angelangt, wo man sie vergaste. Dank diesem System kamen die Körper ohne Zeitverlust in die Öfen. Im Juli 1944 erreicht man die Rekordzahl von 22000 Einäscherungen pro Tag. – Das Sonderkommando aus Häftlingen bestehend revoltierten im Sommer 44, weil die Häftlinge aus verschied. Anzeichen schlossen, daß nun auch sie geopfert werden sollten. Sie weigerten sich ihren Block zu verlassen und steckten sogar einen Teil der Gaskammern in Brand, aber aus allen Himmelsrichtungen tauchten die Maschinengewehre und Maschinenpistolen der SS auf, und legte diesen Aufstand im Handumdrehn Die beiden Ärzte des Sonderkommandos versuchten sich umzubringen, einer starb, der andere konnte gerettet werden, und sagt im Lüneburger Prozeß als Zeuge aus.

Draft translation

9 Volume 64 676 Then the critical moment at evening roll-call, -- there I witnessed several executions by the rope, most impressive was the execution of 4 Polish patriots in Dec. 44, which took place before the sparkling Christmas tree in the middle of the camp. Then he speaks about football, baseball, water sports, cabaret performances, film screenings, concerts Yes, that is precisely what I already told you, that even the Hamburg Chief Mayor wrote back then, that even the rations in the concentration camps were, in caloric terms, richer than what the Allies let the Germans have shortly after 45. Then he speaks further about the extensive library in Auschwitz, which was at the prisoners' disposal, just as they were also informed about the various events at the fronts, German and foreign radio transmissions that they had, Then that in Buchenwald the army reports were publicly transmitted and could be heard throughout the whole camp. One heard them talking about politics, some even indicated the advance of the Allies on a map, etc....... On Jan. 1, 1945 they left the camp Auschwitz. Then further about [DEL: the] the informing of the denunciation system, -- how they sometimes [DEL: once] lynched a denouncer who, rightly or wrongly, was delivered up to a revenge of the whole community.-- Then we have here from an assistant of the Surgical Clinic in Strasbourg about Auschwitz II Birkenau a report, in which he speaks about the camp population composition from all of [DEL: [?ruled?]] [HW: occupied] Europe, from Norway, Belgium, Holland France, Italy, Yugoslavia, Greece, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Poland Russia and Hungary. Natzweiler seems to have been especially used for anatomy and other purposes.-- In Birkenau the 6 crematoria burned day and night, yet they no longer sufficed for the onrush in the summer of 1944 from Hungary, and so the corpses were burned in the middle of the birch forest in a large pit. The whole Gypsy camp of 4,000 men, women and children were sent into the gas chambers in one August night. The method seemed perfect, a narrow rail track ran right up to the gas chambers, and on this now the whole transport, which had been loaded in Drancy (?) or Budapest, could be unloaded directly at the execution site. The deported had to march past an SS commission and then the SS men let those condemned to death step forward a few steps and already they had arrived there, where one gassed them. Thanks to this system the bodies came without loss of time into the ovens. In July 1944 one reaches the record number of 22,000 cremations per day. -- The Special Commando consisting of prisoners revolted in the summer of 44, because the prisoners concluded from various signs that now they too were to be sacrificed. They refused to leave their block and even set a part of the gas chambers on fire, but from all directions of the sky the machine guns and submachine guns of the SS appeared, and put down this uprising in a twinkling of an eye. The two physicians of the Special Commando tried to kill themselves, one died, the other could be saved, [HW: and] [DEL: --that] testifies in the Lüneburg trial as a witness.

Questioner

From this, then, one can conclude that a great many from the Budapest transports went straight there. And at 22 0000 cremations a day, the 2 1/2 million who, according to Hoess’s statements, were killed at Auschwitz would take 100 days.

Now, my calculation is that these were individual record figures. He also writes at one point of 4,000 in one night, so there they needed a night for it. You never know how far you may believe people. And I'm glad today that I never saw such things, that I had nothing to do with it, because it would surely weigh on my soul. But at this moment I only regret that I didn't see it after all, because then I could base a quite different reckoning on my own account. I could speak from my own experience.

Questioner

It says further here that, with the constant terror in the camp and the looming danger of selection for Birkenau, it is strange that there were not more suicides.

Unknown speaker

That is remarkable too, that with extermination going on as if on a conveyor belt, the people didn't take their own lives.

Eichmann

Well, it won't always have been like that with the exterminations.

Questioner

Then further, on the approach of the Russian army the SS destroyed gas chambers and crematoria, that was in the autumn of 1944. There's a contradiction in the two statements. One speaks of the autumn of 1944 with exterminations still running, and the other that in the autumn of 1944 everything in the way of gas chambers and so on was destroyed, with the exception only of the last six crematoria, which were destroyed only in January 1945. Then,

Questioner reads from a Strasbourg surgeon's testimony

at the time of the Warsaw rising, 30 to 50 people often arrived who were shot and burned at once. What connections did we have to the outside world? At Birkenau the Aryans were allowed by the letter of the rule to write to their family once a month and to receive a parcel or letters once. In the summer of 1944 we Jews received few letters. On January 18, 1945 the whole camp was moved to Mauthausen and Buchenwald. The unpaid labor was squeezed out to exhaustion, and sooner or later complete extermination followed. Every crime was committed under a sadistic hypocrisy.

Four to five million victims experienced the complete debasement of humanity at Birkenau. Of all these people nothing remains, not even their names. A few hours before the camp was broken up the SS set the great coal stocks on fire and so destroyed all the card files and medical records, including those of the people who now stay unknown as well. Of the gigantic scale of these crimes no witness was to be left over, except those the SS evacuated to Buchenwald and Mauthausen. But the rapid advance of the Allied troops

Open page image and German
Page 677 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 677 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Hieraus kann man also schließen, daß vor den Budapester Transporte sehr viele gleich dort hinkamen. Und bei 22 0000 Einäscherungen pro Tag, daß wären dann nach Höß' Aussagen von 2 1/2 Mill die in Auschwitz umgebracht worden sind, 100 Tage. – Nun ich kalkuliere so, daß das nun einzele Rekordzahler waren, – er schreibt ja auch einmal von 4000 in einer Nacht, also haben sie da eine Nacht dazu gebraucht. Man weiß ja auch nie wie man den Leuten Glauben schenken darf – und ich bin heute froh, daß ich solche Sachen nie gesehen habe, daß ich damit nichts zu tun hatte, denn es würde mir sicherlich seelisch nachhängen. Aber ich bedaure es nur im Augenblick, daß ich es doch nicht gesehen habe, denn dann könnte ich mir doch eine ganze andere Rechnung selbst zu Grunde legen. ich könnte aus eigener Erfahrung sprechen. – Hier steht nun weiter, daß es im Lager mit dem dauernden herrschenden Terror und der drohenden Gefahr einer Selektion für Birkenau, nicht mehr Selbstmorde gegeben hat, ist sonderbar. Das ist ja auch merkwürdig, wo doch am laufenden Bande vernichtet wurde, daß sich die Leute nicht selber das Leben genommen haben. Gut, es wird ja nicht immer so gewesen sein mit den Vernichtungen. – Dann weiter; beim Heranrücken der russ Armee zerstörten die SS Gaskammern und Krematorien, das war im Herbst 1944 – Da liegt ein Widerspruch in den beiden Aussagen, der eine spricht vom "Herbst 44 mit laufenden Vernichtungen und der andere, das im Herbst 44 alles an Gaskammern etc. vernichtet – nur mit Ausnahme von letzten 6 Krematorien, daß erst im Jan 45 vernichtet wurde. Dann zur Zeit des Warschauer Aufstandes kamen oft 30 bis 50 Personen an, die sofort erschossen und verbrannt wurden. Welche Verbindungen hatten wir nach der Außenwelt? – in Birkenau durften die Arier den Buchstaben nach einmal im Monat an ihre Familie schreiben und einmal ein Paket oder Briefe empfangen – im Sommer 44 erhielten wir, Juden, wenige Briefe. Am 18 Jan 45 wurde das ganze Lager verlegt nach Mauthausen und Buchenwald. Die unentgeltliche Arbeitskraft wurde bis zur Erschöpfung ausgegeudet, und früher oder später folgte die vollkommene Vernichtung. Unter sadistischer Scheinheiligkeit wurde jedes Verbrechen begangen. 4-5 Mill Opfer erlebten in Birkenau die vollständige Entwertung der Menschlichkeit. Von all diesen Menschen bleibt nichts, nicht einmal ihren Namen. – Denn ein paar Stunden vor Auflösung des Lagers setzten die SS die großen Kohlenvorräte in Brand und zerstörten so alle Karteien und Krankenberichte, auch von denen, die nun auch weiter unbekannt bleiben. Von dem gigantischen Ausmaß dieser Verbrechen sollte kein Zeuge über bleiben, es sei denn diese die von der SS evakuiert wurden nach Buchenwald und Mauthausen. Doch das schnelle Vorrücken der Allii Truppen

Draft translation

10 Volume 64 [HW: 677] From this one can therefore conclude that before the Budapest transports very many arrived directly there. And at 22,0000 cremations per day, that [DEL: [illegible]] would then, according to Höss's statements, of 2 1/2 million who were killed in Auschwitz, [be] 100 days.- Now I calculate it thus, that these were now individual record figures, --he also writes once of 4000 in one night, so there they needed one night for it. One also never knows how far one may give the people credence--- and I am glad today that I never saw such things, that I had nothing to do with it, for it would surely weigh on me spiritually [remain with me in the soul]. But I only regret at the moment that I did after all not see it, for then I could indeed lay quite a different reckoning as a basis for myself. I could speak from my own experience.-- Here it now further stands, that in the camp with the constant prevailing terror and the looming danger of a selection for Birkenau, there were no more suicides, is strange. That is indeed also remarkable, where extermination was going on at the running conveyor belt [assembly-line pace], that the people did not take their own lives. Well, it will not always have been like that with the exterminations.--- Then further; upon the advance of the Russian Army the SS destroyed gas chambers and crematoria, that was in autumn 1944--- There lies a contradiction in the two statements, the one speaks of "autumn 44 with ongoing exterminations" and the other, that in autumn 44 everything of gas chambers etc. [was] destroyed--- only with the exception [DEL: [illegible]][TS INS: of] the last 6 crematoria, that only in January 45 were destroyed. Then at the time of the Warsaw uprising there often arrived 30 to 50 persons, who were immediately shot and burned. What connections did we have to the outside world?--- in Birkenau the Aryans were, according to the letter [of the rule / literally], allowed to write to their family once a month and once to receive a package or letters--- in the summer of 44 we, Jews, received few letters. On 18 January[TS INS: 45] the whole camp was relocated to Mauthausen and Buchenwald. The unpaid labor force was exploited [squeezed out] to the point of exhaustion, and sooner or later the complete extermination followed. Under sadistic hypocrisy [sanctimoniousness] every crime was committed. 4-5 million victims [DEL: [illegible]][TS INS: experienced] in Birkenau the complete devaluation of humanity. Of all these people nothing remains, not even their names.--- For a few hours before the dissolution of the camp the SS set the great coal stocks on fire and thus destroyed all the card-indexes and medical records [sick-reports], also of those who now also further remain unknown. Of the gigantic scale of these crimes no witness was to remain over, unless it be those who were evacuated by the SS to Buchenwald and Mauthausen. But the rapid advance of the Allied troops

Questioner reads from a Strasbourg surgeon's testimony

And the disorder of the German war machine made it possible for individuals … to survive.

Questioner

Molwitz?

No, I do not know it.

Questioner

That seems to have belonged to Birkenau as well. It consisted of Molwitz and 26 subcamps situated within a circle extending 100 kilometres around it.

Eichmann

So now I have to raise the quarter of a million I gave even higher. The writer here speaks of millions in Birkenau, so it must have been a large camp. But Auschwitz is there too, and now I hear of Molwitz as well, with 26 outlying camps belonging to it. That was an enormous area. So now I must ask that my figure of 250,000 be treated as not having been given, because under these circumstances the figure itself is much higher.

Questioner

But that could also mean that far more could have been exterminated than the figure of 250,000 taken as the total intake capacity.

Eichmann

No. Let us say 2 million went to Auschwitz, and if the intake capacity was only 250,000, then the remaining 1¾ million must have been exterminated. No, the intake figure was much higher. So that brings down the figure of 1¾ million that I have just assumed for the moment.

Questioner

Yes, brought down, but raised on the other side, in terms of how many may have been exterminated. That means that if you have a camp with a capacity of 250,000, you have to kill 250,000 to be able to take in new people. But if you have a camp with a capacity of a million, you have to exterminate a million to be able to take in new people.

Eichmann

But what matters is how many were brought in altogether, and 2 million were never brought in.

Questioner

The commandant of this camp, Molwitz, is given as Hauptsturmführer Schwarz.

Eichmann

I do not know him.

Questioner

Here it says that

Questioner reads from a camp survivor's testimony

the authority of an SS Oberstf. is certainly equivalent to that of a colonel or even a general in the Wehrmacht.

Questioner

[Further reading about the SS ranks and their duties in the camp.]

Then he says here: chamber chief, Standartenführer, and a head of the political department, the Gestapo in the camp. So that is the man we assumed, on the basis of the SD (Security Service) insignia—

Eichmann

Yes, from the local State Police (Stapo).

Questioner

Then further:

Questioner reads from a camp survivor's testimony

most SS men can be bribed, in their greed for the new arrivals’ foreign currency, jewellery or fountain pens.

Open page image and German
Page 678 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 678 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Und die Unordnung der deutschen Kriegsmaschine ermöglichten das Überleben Einzeln… Molwitz? Nein, mir unbekannt Das scheint auch zu Birkenau dazu gehört zu haben, – es bestand aus Molwitz und 26 Nebenlager, die im Kreis von 100 km in der Runde lagen. Also nun muß ich meine angegebene 1/4 Mill doch noch höher hinauf setzen. – Der Schreiber spricht hier von Mill in Birkenau, es muß also ein großes Lager gewesen sein, aber Auschwitz ist auch noch da und jetzt höre ich noch Molwitz(?) und dazu gehörten 26 Außenlager – das ist ja ein riesiger Raum gewesen, – Nun muß ich also bitten meine Zahl 250 000 als nicht gegeben betrachten, weil unter diesen Umständen die Zahl selbst viel höher liegt. Das könnte aber auch heißen, daß man hätte doch viel mehr vernichten können als die Zahl von 250 000 als eine total capazität zur Aufnahme. – Nein – sagen wir mal es sind 2 Mill nach Auschwitz und wenn dies nur die Aufnahmefähigkeit war, 250 000 – dann muß ja der Rest 1 3/4 Mill vernichtet worden sein. Nein, der Aufnahmefaktor war ein weitaus größerer gewesen. Sodaß die Zahl von 13/4 Mill die ich jetzt nur einmal angenommen habe, dadurch runter gedruckt wird. Ja, herunter gedrückt, aber von der anderen Seite heraufgesetzt, was eventuell vernichtet worden ist. – Das heißt also, wenn man ein Lager hat mit der Capasität von 250 000, so heißt daß, daß sie 250 000 umbringen müssen, um wieder neue aufnehmen zu können. Wenn man aber ein Lager hat mit der Capasität von einer Mill, da müssen sie schon 1 Mill vernichten, um wieder neue aufnehmen zu können. Aber es kommt ja nun darauf an, wieviel überhaupt reingefahren worden sind und 2 Mill sind nie reingefahren worden. Von diesem Lager Molwitz, wird nun als Lagerkommandant angegeben Hstf. Schwarz. Ist mir unbekannt Hier sagt man, die Machtbefugnis eines SS Oberstf. ist bestimmt dieser eines Obersten oder gar eines Generals der Wehrmacht gleichzusetzen. (Dann weiteres Vorlesen bzgl der SS Rangstufen und deren Aufgaben im Lager…. Dann sagt er hier Kammerchef, Standartenf. und ein Chef der polit. Abteilung (Gestapo im Lager) das ist also der Mann von dem wir annahmen, auf Grund des SD Abzeichens – Ja, von der örtl. Stapo – Dann weiter – die meisten SS Leute sind bestechlich in der Gier nach Devisen, Schmuck oder Füllfederhalter der Ankömmlinge.

Draft translation

11 Volume 64 [HW: 678] And the disorder of the German war machine made possible the survival of individual Molwitz? No, unknown to me That seems also to have belonged to Birkenau, --- it consisted of Molwitz and 26 subcamps, which lay in a circle of 100 km around. So now I must set my stated 1/4 million yet higher still.--- The writer here speaks of million in Birkenau, it must therefore have been a large camp, but Auschwitz is also still there and now I hear yet Molwitz(?) and to it belonged 26 outer camps--that was indeed an enormous space, ---- Now I must therefore ask [that] my number 250,000 be regarded as not given, because under these circumstances the number itself lies much higher. But that could also mean, that one could yet have destroyed many more [since?] the number of 250,000 as [TS INS: a total] capacity for reception. --- No--- let us say it is [TS INS: 2 million] [?230x000?] to Auschwitz and if this were only the recep- tion capacity, 250,000 ---then the rest 1 3/4 million must indeed have been destroyed. No, the reception factor was a far greater one. So that the number of 1 3/4 million which I have now only once assumed, is thereby pressed down. Yes, pressed down, but from the other side raised up, [as to] what possibly has been destroyed.- That means therefore, if one has a camp with the capacity of 250,000, then that means, that they must kill 250,000, in order to be able to take in new ones again. But if one has a camp with the capacity of one million, then they must already destroy 1 million, in order to be able to take in new ones again. But it depends now indeed on how many were driven in at all and 2 million were never driven in. Of this camp Molwitz, there is now given as camp commandant Hstf. Schwarz. Unknown to me Here one says, the authority of an SS Oberstf. is definitely to be equated with that of a colonel or even a "eneral [general] of the Wehrmacht. (Then further reading concerning the SS ranks and their duties in the camp.... Then he says here chamber chief, Standartenf. and a chief of the polit. department (Gestapo in the camp) that is therefore the man of whom we assumed, on the basis of the SD insignia-- Yes, of the local Stapo ----- Then further- most SS people are corruptible in the greed for foreign currency, jewelry or fountain pens of the arrivals.

Questioner

Then further:

Questioner reads from a camp survivor's testimony

at the selection for extermination one man was to be taken away, and yet … we hid him on the roof rafter of the rear barrack. When they later let him reappear, the SS non-commissioned officer in the infirmary turned a blind eye for 100 dollars, which the secret organisation managed to obtain for that purpose.

Questioner

Interesting, isn’t it?

Questioner reads from a camp survivor's testimony

The camp guard is being noticeably reinforced by many foreign SS men: Romanians, Slovaks and Hungarians, some not even speaking German. In the Molwitz camp I knew three SS doctors: Endres, Fischer and König. Fischer sometimes showed a touch of humanity. The SS also gave prisoners certain powers, and they were then allowed to wear made-to-measure riding breeches and riding boots. In this way three aristocratic groups confront one another as enemies in Molwitz, serving in an honorary capacity, and thus counting as prominent prisoners. The Jews hold a few posts as block elders or Kapos, but their influence is insignificant.

The Reds, the German political prisoners, represented the good element. They are clean and decent, fight against profiteering in the camp, and take great pains to improve living conditions. They try to prevent prisoners from beating or mistreating their fellow prisoners. Each of these Reds has looked death in the eye countless times, and they are the survivors of a hundred thousand German internees. There are few intellectuals among them, because those were systematically exterminated. The Greens regard themselves as altogether special beings. They never forget that they are Aryans, and on top of everything else Aryan Germans of the Reich—

Questioner

[unintelligible on the recording]

Questioner reads from a camp survivor's testimony

Among the Greens there are homosexuals too—

[unintelligible on the recording]

They are very proud of their made-to-measure striped suits. They have the barber massage their faces, rub them with eau de Cologne and treat them with hot towels.

In the concentration camp? Ha ha…

Questioner

Yes, in the Birkenau extermination camp.

Questioner reads from a camp survivor's testimony

They lack nothing in the way of food. They obtain meat, sausage and fruit in exchange for what they have in the camp in blankets, sheets, pullovers and shirts, or jewellery and money…

Questioner

[unintelligible on the recording]

Questioner reads from a camp survivor's testimony

are brought into the camp from the factory where the bartering takes place. The camp elder is a well-fed colossus, has his massage every day, and certainly lives better in the camp than he did when he was free. He likes to administer the 25 or 50 blows on the buttocks himself. Among the different nationalities there are also different…

Questioner

(?) Then it says:

Questioner reads from a camp survivor's testimony

the Poles stand out for their pride and their imagination. Their prominent prisoners mostly engage in profiteering and often despise the French. You often heard the phrase “The French are degenerate.” The French transports that arrived at Auschwitz in 1942 and 1943 often suffered mistreatment by the Poles. Some of these Poles distinguished themselves as killers on the orders of the SS. The prominent prisoners enjoy certain privileges relating to musical performances and to the brothel. The brothel is reserved exclusively for Aryan prominent prisoners.

Open page image and German
Page 679 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 679 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Dann weiter – bei der Selektion zur Vernichtung sollte einer wegkommen und doch [unleserlich] versteckten wir ihn auf dem Dachsparren der hinteren Baracke und als man ihn dann später wieder auftauchen ließ, schloß der SS Unteroff. im Lazarett für 100 Dollar, die die Geheimorganis. zu diesem Zweck zu beschaffen wußte, beide Augen. Interessant, nicht wahr? Die Lagerwache wird bemerkenswert durch viele ausl. SS Leute verstärkt. Rumänen, Slovaken und Ungarn, teilweise nicht einmal deutsch sprechend. – Im Lager Molwitz kannte ich drei SS Ärzte, Endres, Fischer und König. Bei Fischer war manchmal ein menschliches Rühren zu beobachten. – Die SS übertrug auch den Häftlingen gewisse Befugnisse – und die dürfen dann Reithosen und Reitstiefel nach Maß tragen. Auf diese Weise stehen sich in Molwitz drei aristokratische Gruppen feindlich gegenüber, die ehrenamtlich tätig, also Prominente sind. – Die Juden haben einige Posten als Blockälteste oder Kapos inne, doch ihr Einfluß ist unerheblich. Die Roten, die deutschen polit. Häftlinge represändierten das gute Element, sie sind sauber und anständig und kämpfen gegen den Schacher im Lager und geben sich große Mühe die Lebensbedingungen zu verbessern. Sie versuchen zu verhindern das Häftlinge ihre Mitgefangenen schlagen oder mishandeln. Jeder dieser Roten, hat dem Tod unzählige Male ins Auge gesehen und sie sind die Überlebenden von hunderttausend deutschen Internierten. Bei ihnen befinden sich nur wenig Interlektuelle, denn diese wurden systematisch ausgerottet. Die Grünen betrachten sich absolut als besondere Lebewesen, sie vergessen nie daß sie Arier sind und zu allem übrigen noch Arier Reichsdeutsche (Unverständlich) – unter den Grünen befinden sich auch Homosexuelle – (wieder unverständlich…)… sie sind sehr stolz auf ihre nach Maß angefertigten gestreiften Anzüge. Sie lassen sich vom Friseur das Gesicht massieren, mit Köln. Wasser einreiben und mit heißen Servietten behandeln. Im KL? hahah… Ja, im Vernichtungslager Birkenau – an Verpflegung fehlt ihnen nichts, – sie schaffen sich Fleisch Wurst Obst für das was sie im Lager an Decken, Lacken, Pullover Hemden, od an Schmuck und Geld… (unverständlich) werden von der Fabrik wo der Tauschhandel vor sich geht, mit ins Lager gebracht. Der Lagerälteste ist ein wohlgenährter Koloß, nimmt jeden Tag seine Massage und lebt im Lager bestimmt besser als früher in der Freiheit. – Die 25 od 50 Hiebe auf das Gesäß verabfolgt er gern höchstpersönl. Unter den verschied Nationalitäten gibt es auch noch verschied…(?) Da heißt es sagenzu die Polen zeichnen sich durch ihren Stolz und durch ihre Fantasie aus. Ihre Prominenten schachern zum größten Teil und häufig verachten sie die Franzosen. Man hörte oft den Satz – Franzosen degeneriert. – Die franz Transp. die in den Jahren 42 und 43 in Auschwits ankamen hatten oft unter den Mißhandlungen der Polen zu leiden. Einige dieser Polen taten sich auf Befehl der SS als Totschläger hervor. Die Prominenten werden bestimmter Vergünstigungen teilhaft, die sich auf musikalisc… Darbietungen und auf das Bordell beziehen. Das Bordell ist ausschl. arischen Promin. reserviert

Draft translation

12 Volume 64 . . [HW: 679] Then further- at the selection for extermination one man was supposed to get away and yet [TS INS: [?locked up again?]] we hid him on the roof rafter of the rear barracks and when they then later let him reappear, the SS non-commissioned officer in the infirmary, for 100 dollars, which the secret organization knew how to procure for this purpose, closed both eyes. Interesting, isn't it? The camp guard is notably reinforced by many foreign SS men. Romanians, Slovaks and Hungarians, in part not even speaking German.-- In the Molwitz camp I knew three SS doctors, Endres, Fischer and Koenig. In Fischer's case a human stirring was sometimes to be observed.-- The SS also transferred certain powers to the prisoners--- and they may then wear made-to-measure riding breeches and riding boots. In this way in Molwitz three aristocratic groups stand hostile to one another, who are active in an honorary capacity, that is, are prominent figures.- The Jews hold a few posts as block elders or Kapos, but their influence is insignificant. The Reds, the German polit. prisoners re[TS INS: re]presented the good element, they are clean and decent and fight against the profiteering in the camp and take great pains to improve the living conditions. They try to prevent that prisoners beat or maltreat their fellow prisoners. Each of these Reds has looked death in the eye countless times and they are the survivors of a hundred- thousand German internees. Among them there are only few intellectuals, for these were systematically exterminated. The Greens regard themselves absolutely as special beings, they never forget that they are Aryans and on top of everything else also Aryan Reich-Germans (Unintelligible) --- among the Greens there are also homosexuals ---- (again unintelligible...)... they are very proud of their made-to-measure striped suits. They have the barber massage their face, rub it with cologne water and treat it with hot napkins. In the KL? hahah... Yes, in the Birkenau extermination camp-----they lack nothing in provisions, --they get themselves meat sausage fruit for that which they have in the camp in blankets, sheets, pullovers shirts, or in jewelry and money........ (unintelligible) are brought into the camp from the factory where the barter goes on. The camp elder is a well-fed colossus, takes his massage every day and lives in the camp certainly better than earlier in freedom.---The 25 or 50 blows on the buttocks he likes to administer most personally. Among the various nationalities there are also still various......(?) Th[TS INS: at is to say] [?to say?] the Poles distinguish themselves by their pride and by their imagination. Their prominent figures mostly profiteer and often they despise the French. One often heard the sentence-Frenchmen degenerate.-- The French transp. who arrived in the years 42 and 43 in Auschwitz often had to suffer under the maltreatment of the Poles. Some of these Poles distinguished themselves on the order of the SS as killers. The prominent figures partake of certain privileges, which relate to musical performances and to the brothel. The brothel is exclusively reserved for Aryan prominent figures.

Questioner reads from a camp survivor's testimony

But the red Germans make no use of it. In the brothel there is alcohol, wine, food and clothing. The report leader (Rapportf.), under whose authority it falls, places great importance on the brothel functioning well. Every day he takes his ladies

[Typed deletion: …]

for a walk outside the camp and has himself [one typed word not translated: papitieren] by them. On three evenings a week the lovers follow one another at intervals of 20 minutes, according to a timetable fixed in advance, and an Aryan doctor is available in a cubicle for preventive measures.

Open page image and German
Page 680 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 680 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Doch machen die roten Deutschen davon keinen Gebrauch. Im Bordell gibt es Alkohol, Wein, Nahrungsmittel, Kleidungsstück. Der Rapportf. dem es untersteht, legt großen Wert darauf, daß das Bordell gut funktioniert, jeden Tag führt er seine Damen außerhalb des Lagers spazieren und läßt sich von ihnen papitieren. An drei Abenden in der Woche folgen sich die Liebhaber in Abständen von 20 Minuten, nach einem vorher festgelegten Stundeplan und ein arischer Arzt steht in einer Kabine für Vorbeugungsmaßnahmen zur Verfügunge

Draft translation

13 . Volume 64 . [HW: 680] But the red Germans make no use of it. In the brothel there is alcohol, wine, foodstuffs, article of clothing. The Rapport-l.[Report-leader?] to whom they are subordinate, sets great store by the brothel functioning well, every day he leads his ladies [DEL: [illegible]] for a walk outside the camp and lets himself be papitied [papitieren — unclear word] by them. On several evenings in the week the lovers follow one another at intervals of 20 minutes, according to a previously fixed timetable and an Aryan doctor stands by in a cubicle for preventive measures.

Questioner

Then here is a Jewish report about the Warsaw ghetto. It says that in October 1940 there were 400,000 Jews there. This report is by a Professor Hirszfeld, who wrote his book secretly during the war, in an extermination camp. He speaks of the 200 calories a day given to people and describes life in the ghetto. That is largely authentic. Among other things, the children do not have to wear a Star of David, which makes food smuggling easier for them, from the tram that passes the ghetto and from which the children throw the parcels across.

Questioner reads from Hirszfeld's account

From time to time buses drive through the ghetto, with curious faces staring out. Strength Through Joy. It was called an outing to the zoological garden. Goebbels probably wanted to demonstrate what power means, and how people of other races are to be despised.

I have never heard anything about that.

Questioner reads from Hirszfeld's account

The Jews who work in the Aryan quarters get a pass to reach their workplaces. They have to run past the guard with their hats in their hands. Besides, I report only facts that I experienced myself or that trustworthy people reported to me.

Questioner

Then a matter concerning children in the ghetto. A child tells him this, a child born in 1923 who lived in Ronodenka, 6 kilometres from the Romanian border. And there … was brought into the Greek-Catholic church as a barber at the beginning of the war and had to shave Minister Beck and Marshal … and cut their hair. When he later told people about it, the Polish police arrested him for causing panic.

Questioner reads from a child survivor's testimony

Yes, they were allowed to engage in private trade and were doing very well. The war against Germany then broke out again on 22 June 1941. After two or three weeks Hungarian troops were already with us.

Questioner

[unintelligible on the recording]

Questioner reads from a child survivor's testimony

and helped them with how to form a pocket. In the first five months there were no Germans at all in Ronodenka. The Hungarians behaved quite decently towards the Jews. The Ukrainians were the worst. There was a military nationalist organisation, Six, which wanted to carry out a Pro-Co (?) against the Jews. Then every organisation that had weapons was put under pressure, and after that there was only German administration. An Obersturmbannführer Doppler in Gestapo uniform. A German gendarmerie unit arrived, made up almost entirely of Polish-speaking Upper Silesians. Under the Hungarians we had to wear yellow armbands, but the Germans immediately introduced white armbands with the Star of David.

[unintelligible on the recording]

The action began early in the morning on 4 December. They are alleged to have shot a group in a … there, but ten children and women who were only wounded could crawl out of the pit at night. She told everything as it was. A board was laid across the pit, and five people at a time had to stand on it, strip naked, and then they were shot. One of the women who escaped was pregnant and gave birth to a child in a hospital two weeks later.

[Rather unbelievable.]

Very many died of typhus

Open page image and German
Page 681 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 681 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Dann ist hier ein jüd. Bericht über Warschauer Ghetto – darin wird berichtet daß im Okt 1940 sich 400 000 Juden dort befanden. – Dieser Bericht ist von einem Prof. Hirstfeld, der sein Buch während des Krieges heimlich schrieb, in einem Vernichtungslager. Er spricht über 200 Kalorien pro Tag die den Menschen gegeben wurden und er schildert das Leben im Ghetto, das ist weitgehendst authentisch. – U.a. daß die Kinder keinen Davidstern zu tragen brauchen und ihnen dadurch der Lebensmittelschmuggel erleichtert wird, von der Straßenbahn die am Ghetto vor eber fährt und von wo aus die Kinder denn die Päckchen herüberschmeißen. Von Zeit zu Zeit fahren Omnibusse durchs Ghetto, durch die neugierge Gesichter heraus starren, – Kraft durch Freude, es hieß einen Ausflug in den Zoologischen Garten, wahrscheinlich wollte Goebbels damit dar tun, was Macht bedeutet. – Und wie man Menschen fremder Rassen zu verachten hat. – Davon habe ich noch nie etwas gehört. Die Juden die in den arischen Vierteln arbeiten bekommen einen Passierschein, um an ihre Arbeitsplätze zu gelangen. Die Wache muß mit dem Hut in der Hand im Laufschritt passiert werden. Außerdem berichte ich nur Tatsachen, die ich selber erlebte oder die mir von Vertrauenswürdigen berichtet wurden. Dann eine Angelegenheit über Kinder im Ghetto – das erzählt ihm ein Kind, daß 1923 geboren wurde und das in Ronodenka wohnte, 6 Km von der rum. Grenze. Und da wurde am Kriegsanfang als Friseur in die griech. kath. Kirche gehält und mußte dort Minister Beck und Marshall rasieren und ihnen die Haare schneiden und als er es nachher den Leuten erzählte, verhaftete ihn die poln. Polizei, wegen Hervorrufung von Panikstimmung. Ja, sie durften Privathandel treiben und es ging ihnen sehr gut. – Der Krieg gegen Deutschland brach dann am 22. Juni 1941 wieder aus. Nach zwei oder drei Wochen waren schon ung. Truppen bei uns. (unverständlich…) und halfen ihnen wie man einen Kessel bilden konnte. In den ersten 5 Monaten waren überhaupt keine Deutschen in Ronodenka. Die Ungarn benahmen sich den Juden gegenüber ganz anständig, am schlimmsten trieben es die Ukrainer, es gab eine militärisch Nationalisten Organis. Six, die wollte ein Pro-Co (?) machen gegen die Juden. Dann wurden jed. Organis. die Waffen häten in die Klemme genommen und dann gab es nr deutsche Verwaltung. Ein Oberstbaf. Doppler in Gestapo Uniform. Eine deutshe Gend kam, die sich fast alle aus polnisch sprechenden Oberschlesier zusammen setzte. Unter den Ungarn mußten wir gelbe Armbinden tragen, aber die Deutschen führten gleich weiße Armbinden mit dem Davidstern ein. (nächstes unverständlich) Die Aktion begann am 4 Dez frühmorgens – da sollen sie angeblich eine Gruppe in einer Gru[unleserlich] erschossen haben, aber 10 Kinder und Frauen, die nur verletzt waren, konnten nachts aus der Grube herauskriechen – sie habe alles erzählt wies es war, man legte en Brett über die Grube und da mußten sich immer 5 Mann drauf stellen, sich nakt ausziehen und dann hat man sie erschossen. Eine von den Frauen die sich retten konnten, war schwanger und gebar 2 Wochen später in einem Krankenhaus ein Kind. (Ziemlich unglaublich) Am Typhus starben sehr viele

Draft translation

Band 65 [HW: 684] Then here is a Jew[ish] report about the Warsaw Ghetto—in it it is reported that in Oct. 1940 400,000 Jews were located there.— This report is by a Prof. Hirstfeld, who wrote his book secretly during the war, in an extermination camp. He speaks about 200 calories per day that were given to the people and he depicts the life in the ghetto, that is to a large extent authentic.— Among other things that the children do not need to wear a Star of David and thereby the smuggling of food is made easier for them, about the streetcar that drives past the ghetto and from which the children then throw the little packages across. From time to time omnibuses drive through the ghetto, out of which curious faces stare,—Strength through Joy, it was called an excursion to the Zoological Garden, probably Goebbels wanted thereby to demonstrate what power means.— And how one is to despise people of foreign races.——— Of that I have never heard anything. The Jews who work in the Aryan quarters receive a pass, in order to get to their workplaces. The guard must be passed at a run with the hat in the hand. Besides, I report only facts that I myself experienced or that were reported to me by trustworthy [people]. Then a matter about children in the ghetto——— a child tells him that, [a child] that was born in 1923 and that lived in Ronodenka, 6 km from the Rom[anian] border. And there [he] was at the start of the war taken as a barber into the [DEL: Jew[ish]-Cath[olic]] [HW: Greek] church and had to shave Minister Beck and Marshall [name] there and cut their hair and when he afterwards told the people about it, the Pol[ish] police arrested him, for causing panic mood. Yes, they were allowed to carry on private trade and they were doing very well.———The war against Germany then broke out again on 22 June 1941. After two or three weeks there were already [protection?] troops with us. (unintelligible....) and helped them how one could form a pocket [encirclement]. In the first 5 months there were no Germans at all in Ronodenka. The Hungarians behaved quite decently toward the Jews, the Ukrainians carried it on the worst, there was a military nationalist organiz[ation] Six, that wanted to make a Pro-Co (?) against the Jews. Then [every] organiz[ation] that had weapons was taken into a jam and then there was [only] German administration. An Oberstbaf. Doppler in Gestapo uniform. A German gend[armerie] came, that was made up almost entirely of Polish-speaking Upper Silesians. Under the Hungarians we had to wear yellow armbands, but the Germans immediately introduced white armbands with the Star of David. (next [word] unintelligible) The action began on 4 Dec early in the morning——— there they are said to have allegedly shot a group in a group, but 10 children and women, who were only wounded, were able to crawl out of the pit at night—— she told everything how it was, one laid a board over the pit and there always 5 men had to stand on it, undress naked and then one shot them. One of the women who were able to save themselves was pregnant and gave birth two weeks later in a hospital to a child. (Rather unbelievable) Of typhus very many died

Questioner reads from a child survivor's testimony

The Jewish … was very bad. Some did not exactly help us, but they did no harm either.

[Tape damaged; unintelligible on the recording.]

The Jewish Council had to hand over a contingent of old people

[Typed deletion: …]

to be killed. There were 200 people.

Questioner

And then it is strange: the rescued children often spoke of electric current instead of gassing. Then it is said

[Typed deletion: …]

that certain Jews were deliberately inoculated with typhus so that they would infect all the others too. Whether “all the others” also includes Germans does not emerge. Then in the spring came the total liquidation, in 1943. Then here is a teleprinter message to the BDS (Commander of the Security Police and SD), Department IV B, Paris.

[Reading of the teleprinter message.]

[Typed as notes in the transcript: A certain Barbie…]

When was all that, 1944? Yes, then I could no longer have known anything about it; I was in Hungary.

Questioner

Then here is another report by a child born in 1932. The statement was recorded in 1946, so the child was fourteen then. They were brought to the camp … near Krakow in October 1943.

Questioner reads from a child survivor's testimony

In the camp we were given a terrible reception. I do not know why

Questioner

[Typed deletion: …]

Questioner reads from a child survivor's testimony

they persecuted the … with such hostility. There was a Jewish commandant …, his wife, Finkelstein, and others who abused us with foul language. There were many executions. Jews caught with Aryan papers were brought in from the city. On 14 May 1944 there was a roll call in the camp at which the names of all the children were read from a list. Near me stood Jewish policemen, the worst in the whole camp, Kerner and Marcel Goldberg. They took the children out to be brought for extermination. The next day the commandant’s wife went through our ranks during roll call to see whether any children had escaped.

If she found one, she became very angry. In July, too, a transport escaped again. It was assembled at the station, and there were only a few wagons. The camp commandant and his wife and many others were shot. The bodies were piled beside the latrine. At one in the afternoon there was a roll call. We had to march past the bodies and look at them. A notice beside them said they had been shot for escape and possession of weapons. The German camp commandant Goethe rode up. Whenever he came, there were victims. He was a Jewish man, but a murderer. On 21 October 1944 we came to Auschwitz.

Packed tightly and half suffocated, we travelled in closed wagons. When we arrived in the evening, they drove us to Birkenau. When we arrived in the evening, we could already see from a distance that the sky was red as if from a fire. We could not imagine that people could burn like that. People asked the sentries what was burning there, and they replied that bread had to be baked. Then they sorted us out. It was dreadful. We had to strip naked. Dr. … stood in the doorway and decided who was to live or die. And I begged a Czech woman overseer not to give me away. I received

Open page image and German
Page 682 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 682 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Die jüd. war sehr schlimm. Einige halfen uns zwar nicht gearde, aber sie schadeten auch nicht. (Band kaputt, unverständlich ) Der Judenrat mußte ein Kontigent alter Leute abliefern, zum töten, es waren 200 Personen. – Und dann ist es merkwürdig die geretteten Kinder sprachen häufig vom elektrische… Strom anstatt von Vergasung. Dann wird erzählt, daß bestimmte Juden extra mit Typhus geimp… wurden, damit sie alle anderen auch anstecken sollen, ob mit dem "alle a deren" auch gemeint steinschliessl. Deutsche, geht nicht heraus hervor. – Dann im Frühjahr kam die totale Liquidation. Im Jahre 1943. Dann ist hier ei Fernschreiben an den BDS Abteilung IV,B, Paris. (Vorlesen des Fernschreibens; ) Ein Barbie… Wann war das alles, 1944? Ja, da kam ich nichts mehr davon wissen, da war ich ja in Ungarn Dann ist hier wider ein Bericht von einem Kind, daß 1932 geboren ist, und das Protokoll wurde aufgenommen 1946, also war es dann 14 Jahre. Die wurden ins Lager bei Krakau im Okt 1943 gebracht, Im Lager wurden wir schrecklich empfangen. Ich weiß nicht, warum man die mit solcher Feindschaft verfolgte. Es gab einen jüd. Kommandanten und seine Frau Finkenstein und andere die uns mit schlimmen Worten beschimpften. Es gab viele Exekutionen, aus der Stadt brachte man Juden die mit arischen Papier erwischt worden waren. Am 14 Mai 44 war Apell im Lager bei dem die Namen aller Kinder von einer Liste abgelesen wurden. In meiner Nähe standen jüd. Poliz. die schlimmsten im ganzen Lager, Kerner und Marcel Goldberg. Die nahmen also die Kinder raus. um sk zur Vernichtung zu bringen. Am nächsten Tag, ging die Frau des Kommandonten während des Apells durch unsere Reihen um festzustellen ob sich Kinder gerettet hätten. Fand sie eins wurde sie sehr böse. – Auch im Juli entkam wieder ein Transp. der wurde auf dem Bahnhof zusammen gestellt und es gab nur wenige Waggons. Der Lagerkommandant und seine Frau und viele andere wärden erschossen. Die Leichen packte man neben die Latrine. Um 1 Uhr mittags gab es Apell, wir mußten an den Leichen vorbeimarschieren und sie betrachten, eine Aufschrift stand dabei, daß sie wegen Flucht und Waffenbesitz erschossen seien. Der deutsche Lagerkommandant Goethe kam angeritten, wenn er kam, gab es immer Opfer, er war ein jüd. Mann aber ein Mörder. Am 21 Okt 1944 kamen wir nach Auschwitz, dicht gedrängt und halb erstickt fuhren wir in geschlossenen Waggons. Als wir abends ankamen, trieb man uns nach Birkenau als wir abends ankamen, sahen wir schon weitem den Himmel rot wie bei einem Brand. Das Menschen so brennen sollen, konnten wir uns nicht vorstellen. Die Leute fragten die Posten was dort brenne und die antworteten, es muß doch Brot gebacken werden. Dann sortirte man uns aus, es war entsetzlich, wir mußten uns nakt ausziehen, in der Tür stand Dr. und bestimmte wer leben oder sterben sollite. Und ich flehte eine tschecische Aufseherin an, mich nicht zu verraten. Ich bekam

Draft translation

2 Volume 65 68[?2?] The Jew. was very bad. Some indeed did not exactly help us, but they also did not harm. (Tape broken, unintelligible ) The Jewish Council had to deliver a contingent of old people, xxxxx to be killed, there were 200 persons.- Andthen it is strange therescued children spoke often of the electric current instead of gassing. Then it istold, xxxxxxxxxxwasxxx that certain Jews were extra inoculated with typhus so that they should also infect all the others, whether by the "all o hers" also is meant incl. Germans, does not come out emerge.- Then in the spring came the total liquidation, In the year 1943. Then here is a teletype to the BDS Department IV,B, Paris. (Reading aloud of the teletype; ) A Barbie..... When was all that, 1944? Yes, there I could no longer know anything about it, for I was in Hungary Then here is again a report from a child, that was born in 1932, and the protocol was taken down in 1946, sowas itthen 14 years. They were brought to the camp near Krakow in Oct 1943, In the camp we were received terribly. I do not know, why xxxx one persecuted the with such enmity. There was a Jew. commandant and his wife Finkenstein and others who abused us with bad words. There were many executions, from the town one brought Jews who had been caught with Aryan papers. On 14 May 44 there was roll-call in the camp bat which the names of all children were read off from a list. In my vicinity stood Jew. police theworst in the whole camp, Kerner and Marcel Goldberg. They then took the children out. to bring hem to extermination. On the next day, the wife of the commandant went through our rows during the roll-call to establish whether children had saved themselves. If she found one she became very angry.- Also in July again a transp. escaped it was assembled at the station andthere were only few wagons.The camp commandant and his wife and many others wereshot. The corpses one packed next to the latrine. At 1 o'clock midday there was roll-call, we had to march past the corpses and look at them, an inscription stood by it, that they had been shot for flight and possession of weapons. The German camp commandant Goethe came riding up, when he came, there were always victims, he was a Jew. man but a murderer. On 21 Oct 1944 we came to Auschwitz, closely packed and half suffocated we travelled in closed wagons. When we arrived in the evening, one drove us to Birkenau when we arrived in the evening, we already saw from afar the sky red as in a fire. That people should burn so, we could notimagine. The people asked the guards what was burning there and they answered, bread must after all be baked. Then one sorted us out, it was dreadful, we had to strip ourselves naked, in the door stood Dr. and determined who should live or die. And I implored a Czech female overseer, not to betray me. I received

Questioner reads from a child survivor's testimony

a number …. They said it was a good thing to get a number at all; then you were as good as saved. Then, on the orders of the camp commandant Hessler, I had to stand at the gate. It went on like that until 5 January 1945, when the camp was evacuated. Everyone got a loaf of bread and a piece of margarine. We were not allowed to stop, day or night. After two days they loaded us into open wagons, and so we arrived in Ravensburg (?). Then they took us to Neustadt, two and a half days in open wagons. The woman camp elder hated Jews. She took our … away and beat us like cattle. Everyone had typhus and diarrhoea; many women died. Until 2 May 1945 there were fewer and fewer of us. Then they locked our block and nailed boards over the doors and windows. Everyone thought they were going to blow us up or burn us. They probably did not manage it because the Americans came and freed us.

[overlapping talk]

I know nothing about that. If that was so, the VW HA (SS Economic and Administrative Main Office) had to get in touch with the Luftwaffe.

Questioner

Then here is another report, also by a child from the General Government. He relates:

Questioner reads from a child survivor's testimony

village boys attacked our house at night and smashed our windows. They disguised themselves as Germans and plundered our home. They terrorised all the Jews in the village, and when the Germans came, they denounced [? us] to them. Only a few Jews let themselves be taken away on the night leading into 1 August 1942. All the others fled into the forest or hid in a village.

Questioner

Then he relates that he worked for a Polish farmer and saved his life that way, as did his brother David. That afterwards his mother and sister found their way back too. This is a Jewish-Polish family that all came together again.

Unknown speaker

But why put all that into the book?

Questioner

Here he writes further:

Questioner reads from a child survivor's testimony

a Jew spied on us, a certain Ignaz Kaufmann, who was a Gestapo informer and wanted to betray us. After half a year Daddy went to the partisans, and we lost all contact with him. We received word that Daddy had been killed, but the secret organisation gave us no money, although it had originally been firmly promised to us. Only … brought us support from the relief committee for Jews. After Daddy had gone, colleagues of his often came to see us, partisans too. They brought us treats and fruit. After the Warsaw Uprising, Daddy suddenly came back and we were together again. When the Russians entered Krakow, we were all sitting in the air-raid shelter. A Russian captain who interrogated the German prisoners of war took quarters in our house. After the Russians had entered Krakow, we too arrived back there as free people on 18 January.

Questioner

Then here is another child, born in 1930, Liebermann Kullwinger, who says:

Questioner reads from a child survivor's testimony

I have nothing interesting to report from the time of the Soviet occupation

Open page image and German
Page 683 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 683 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

eine Nummer …, es hieß, es sei gut, wenn man überhaupt eine Nummer bekäme, dann sei man so gut wie gerettet. Dann mußte ich auf Befehl des Lagerkommandanten Hessler am Tor stehen, so ging es bis zum 5 Jan 45, dann wurde das Lager evakuiert. Jeder bekam ein Brot und ein Stück Margarine. Wir durften weder Tag noch Nacht stehen bleiben nach 2 Tagen verließ man uns in offene Waggons, so kamen wir in Ravensburg (?) an. Dann brachten sie uns nach Neustadt, 21/2 Tage in offenen Waggons. Die Lagerälteste haßte Juden, sie nahm uns die … fort und schlug uns wie Vieh. Alle hatten Typhus und Durchfall, viele Frauen starben. Bis zum 2. Mai 45 wurden wir immer weniger, dann sperrten sie unseren Block, nagelten Türen und Fenster mit Brettern zu und alle dachten, man würde uns in die Luft sprengen oder verbrennen, sie haben es wohl nicht mehr geschafft, weil die Amerikaner kamen und uns befreiten. – (Durcheinander) Davon weiß ich nichts – wenn es so war, dann hatte das VW HA sich mit der Luftwaffe in Verbindung zu setzen. Dann ist hier ein anderer Bericht, auch von einem Kind aus dem Gen Gov. Und der erzählt; Dorfjungen überfielen nachts unser Haus und schlugen unsere Fenster ein, sie verkleideten sich als Deutsche und plünderten bei uns. Sie terroristr alle Juden im Dorf und als die Deutschen dann kamen, zeigten sie u… bei ihnen an. Nur ein paar Juden ließen sich fortschaffen in der Nacht zum 1 Aug. 42. – Alle anderen flüchteten in den Wald, oder versteckten sich in einem Dorf. Dann erzählt er, daß er dann bei einem poln. Bauern gearbeitet hat und so sein Leben gerettet, so auch sein Bruder David. Daß auch nachher die Mutter und die Schwester zurückfindet. Das ist so eine jüd.-poln. Familie, die eben dann wieder alle zusammen kamen. Aber warum schreibt man denn das alles in das Buch hinein? – Hier schreibt er weiter; ein Jude spionierte hinter uns her, ein gewisser Ignaz Kaufmann, der ein Gestapo Spitzel war und uns ans Messer liefern wollte. Und nach einem halben Jahr ging Vati zu den Partisanen und verloren jeden Kontakt mit ihm. Wir bekamen die Nachricht, daß Vati gefallen sei, aber die Geheimorgais. gab uns kein Geld, obwohl man es uns erst fest versprochen hatte. Nur … brachte uns unterstützung vom Hilfsausschuß für Juden. Nachdem Vati fort war, kamen oft Kollegen von ihm zu uns, auch Partisanen. Sie brachten uns Leckerbissen und Obst. Nach dem Warschauer Aufstand kam Vati plötzlich zurück und wir waren wieder zusammen. Als dann die Russen in Krakau einmarschierten saßen wir alle im Luftschutzraum. In unserem Haus quartierte sich ein russischer Hauptmann ein, der die deutschen Kriegsgefangenen verhörte Nachdem die Russen in Krakau einmarschiert waren, kamen auch wir am 18 Jan als freie Menschen wieder dort an. Dann hier wieder ein Kind, geboren 1930, Liebermann Kullwinger, es sagt; Aus der Zeit der sowjetischen Besatzung weiß ich nichts interessantes zu berichten

Draft translation

3 Volume 65 683 a number , it was said, it was good if one got a number at all, then one was as good as saved. Then I had to stand at the gate on the order of the camp commandant Hessler, so it went until 5 Jan 45, then the camp was evacuated. Everyone got a bread and a piece of margarine. We were not allowed to stop [standing] either by day or by night after 2 days one left us in open freight cars, thus we arrived in Ravensburg (?). Then they brought us to Neustadt, 2 1/2 days in open freight cars. The camp elder hated Jews, she took the away from us and beat us like cattle. All had typhus and diarrhea, many women died. Until 2 May 45 we became ever fewer, then they locked up our block, nailed doors and windows shut with boards and all thought, then one [they] would blow us up into the air or burn [us], they probably did not manage it anymore, because the Americans came and freed us.-- (Confusion / commotion) Of that I know nothing-- if it was so, then the VW HA had to get in contact with the air force [Luftwaffe]. Then here is another report, also from a child from the Gen[eral] Gov[ernment]. And he recounts; village boys attacked our house at night and smashed in our windows, they disguised themselves as Germans and plundered at our place. They [DEL: steriliz][HW: terroriz]ed all Jews in the village and when the Germans then came, they reported u[s] to them. Only a few Jews let themselves be carried off in the night of the 1 Aug. 42.-- All others fled into the forest, or hid themselves in a village. Then he recounts that he then worked for a Pol[ish] farmer and thus saved his life, likewise his brother David. That later also the mother and the sister find [their way] back. That is such a Jew[ish]-Pol[ish] family, that then just came all together again. But why does one write all that into the book?--- Here he write[s] further; a Jew spied after us, a certain Ignaz Kaufmann, who was a Gestapo informer and wanted to deliver us to the [enemy's] knife [betray us]. And after half a year Daddy went to the partisans and [we] lost all contact with him. We received the news that Daddy had fallen, but the secret organiz[ation] gave us no money, although one had at first firmly promised it to us. Only brought us support from the aid committee for Jews. After Daddy was gone, colleagues of his often came to u[s], also partisans. They brought us delicacies and fruit. After the Warsaw Uprising Daddy suddenly came back and we were together again. When then the Russians marched into Cr[a]cow we all sat in the air-raid shelter. In our house a Russian captain quartered himself, who interrogated the German prisoners of war After the Russians had marched into Cracow, we too arrived there again on 18 Jan as free people. Then here again a child, born 1930, Liebermann Kullwinger, it says; From the time of the Soviet occupation I know nothing interesting to report

Questioner reads from a child survivor's testimony

but my father and one sister died at that time. Mummy, two older sisters and a little brother were left with me. When the Germans entered, they gave the Ukrainians a day’s free rein to persecute the Jews. They were allowed to murder to their heart’s content. But at that time the Poles helped the Jews, which they did not do at that time. A neighbour, who later became an ethnic German, hid us all. Later a Jewish Council and a Jewish police force were formed. The Jewish Council had to gather people for work. They themselves knew perfectly well that this was not about work, because the Jewish Council quickly hid their own families, while the others had to report and thousands of families were dragged away.

Yes, then the General Government authorities left that to the Jews themselves.

Questioner reads from a child survivor's testimony

My sister fell ill, so they brought her back out of the camp. The third action lasted four weeks. They searched every hiding place, and the Jewish police helped them. There were forty of us in a hiding place built of masonry, but the Jewish police

[Typed deletion: …]

betrayed us themselves. Anyone with money could buy their freedom. They crammed us 400 at a time into large wagons—

Eichmann

No, I do not believe that. That is simply impossible. First, the Jews loaded them themselves—

Questioner reads from a child survivor's testimony

A Polish woman said that it would do the Jews no good to flee, because they had had a good life and now had to pay for it.

[Typed deletion: …]

Questioner

Then he sees people quickly giving poison. Mothers give it to their little children and children to their parents. They come to the camp …. There they are examined by a doctor because they claim to be Aryan, these Jewish children. Then a doctor with glasses comes, who himself looks like a Jew, and says: “Aryan.”

Questioner reads from a child survivor's testimony

Then we came to the nuns. They received us by telling us to go to confession, because we had come out of prison and surely had many sins on our conscience. That was a fine mess. I managed to get out of it, but Josef had to go because children of his age were going to their first Communion just then. He simply copied everything they did, and it worked.

Questioner

Then later they go to the farmers, the two brothers work as cowherds and visit the German soldiers.

Questioner reads from a child survivor's testimony

An anti-aircraft gun was just above us, and they started working there. I stayed with the German soldiers until they had to flee. Nobody there suspected us, although we had wild curly hair; they probably thought we were Ukrainians. When the Germans fled in 1944, we wandered around the village for a few days. When the Russians entered, we finally found our uncle, a doctor, who took us in and brought us to Krakow.

Questioner

Now here is another story: a Jewish orphanage in Krakow. Until August 1940 nothing at all happened there. Everything still operated under the same conditions as before the German-Polish war. But in March 1941 … was designated as a Jewish residential quarter, and the orphanage had to move out. After that, in August 1942, the resettlements began in Krakow.

Open page image and German
Page 684 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 684 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

aber damals staben mein Vater und eine Schwester. – Mutti, zwei ältere Schwestern und ein kleines Brüderchen blieben mit mir übrig. Die Deutschen gaben bei dem Einmarsch den Ukrainer einen Tag frei für die J-Verfolgung. Sie durften nach Herzenslust morden, aber damals halfen die Polen den J. was sie damals nicht taten. Eine Nachbarin, die später Volksdeutsche wurde, versteckte uns alle. Später wurde ein J-Rat gebildet und auch J-Polizei. Der J-Rat mußte die Leute zum arbeiten sammeln, dabei wußten sie selbst ganz genau, daß es sich nicht um Arbeit handelte, denn die eigenen Familien wurden von dem Judenrat schnell versteckt. Während die anderen sich melden mußten und tausende von Familien weggeschleppt wurden. Ja, dann hat die Gen Gov Behördeds den Juden selbst überlassen. Meine Schwester wurde krank und man schaffte sie deshalb aus dem Lager wieder zurück. Die dritte Aktion dauerte 4 Wochen, sie suchten alle Verstecke durch, und die jüd. Polizei half ihnen dabei. Wir saßen, 40 Personen in einem gemauerten Versteck, aber die jüd. Polizei hat uns selbst verraten. Wer Geld hatte konnte sich loskaufen. Man zwängte uns zu 400 in große Waggons Nep das glaube ich nicht, das geht ja gar nicht. 1. haben die Juden sie ja selber verladen Eine polnische Frau sagte, es würde den Juden nichts nützen zu fliehen, denn sie hatten ein gutes Leben gehabt und müßten nun büßen. Dann sieht er wie Menschen schnell Gift geben. Mütter es ihren kleinen Kindern eingeben und Kinder ihren Eltern. Sie kommen in das Lager … Dort werden sie von einem Arzt untersucht, weil sie angeben sie seien arisch, diese jüd. Kinder, – Dann kommt ein Arzt mit einer Brille, der selbst aussieht wie ein Jude und sagt; Arisch. – Dann kamen wir zu den Nonnen. Sie empfingen uns, daß wir beichten gehen sollen, denn wir kämen aus dem Gefängnis und hätten sicher viele Sünden auf dem Gewissen. Das war ein schöner Reinfall. Ich konnte mich drücken, aber Josef mußte gehen, weil gerade Kinder in seinem Alter zur ersten Kommunion gingen. Er hat ihnen einfach alles nachgemacht und es klappte auch. Dann kommen sie später zu den Bauern, arbeiten als Kuhhüter, die beiden Brüder, und besuchen die deutschen Soldaten, gleich üben uns lag eine Flak und fingen dort zu arbeiten an, ich blieb bei den deutschen Soldaten, bis sie fliechten mußten, dort hatte uns niemand in Verdacht, obwohl wir wilde Lockenköpfe hatten, aber sie hielten uns wohl für Ukrainer. – Als die Deutschen 1944 flohen, wanderten wir ein paar Tage im Dorf herum und beim Einmarsch der Russen fanden wir endlich unseren Onkel, Ein Arzt, der sich unser annahm und uns nach Krakau brachte. – Nun hier eine andere Geschichte, ein jüd. Waisenhaus in Krakau. Bis zum Aug 1940 geschah da überhaupt nichts – es lief also alles noch unter demselben Bedingungen, wie vordem deutsch-poln. Kriege. Aber im März 1941 wurde dann … als jüd. Wohnviertel bestimmt und da mußte das Waisenhaus also auswandern – daraufhin im Aug(42) fingen in Krakau die Aussiedlungen an. [handschriftlich: 42 od 41]

Draft translation

Band 65 [HW: 68] but at that time my father and one sister died.-- Mummy, two older sisters and a little little-brother remained left over with me. The Germans, at the invasion, gave the Ukrainians one day free for the J-persecution. They were allowed to murder to their heart's content, but at that time the Poles helped the J. which at that time they did not do. A woman neighbor, who later became a Volksdeutsche [ethnic German], hid us all. Later a J-Council was formed and also J-Police. The J-Council had to gather the people for the working, and in doing so they themselves knew quite exactly that it was not a matter of work/, becauseß their own families were quickly hidden by the Jewish Council. While the others had to report and thousands of families were dragged away. Yes, then the Gen[eral] Gov[ernment] authority left it to the Jews themselves. My sister became sick and one therefore brought her back again out of the camp. The third Aktion lasted 4 weeks, they searched through all the hiding places, and the Jew[ish]. Police helped them in this. We sat, 40 persons in a walled/bricked hiding place, but the Jew[ish]. Police [DEL: xxxxxx] betrayed us themselves. Whoever had money could buy themselves free. One squeezed us 400 to a [group] into large freight-cars Nep [No] that I do not believe, that is entirely impossible.1. the Jews did indeed load them themselves A Polish woman said, it would be of no use to the Jews to flee, for they had had a good life and now had to atone. [DEL: [illegible]] Then he sees how people quickly give poison. Mothers give it to their small children and children to their parents. They come into the camp .... .There they are examined by a doctor, because they state they are Aryan, these Jew[ish]. children,----Then comes a doctor with spectacles, who himself looks like a Jew and says; Aryan.----- Then we came to the nuns. They received us [with the instruction] that we should go to confess, for we came out of the prison and surely had many sins on our conscience. That was a fine flop/disaster. I could dodge it, but Josef had to go, because just at that time children of his age were going to first Communion. He simply imitated everything they [did] and it even worked out. Then later they come to the peasants, work as cow-herders, the two brothers, and visit the German soldiers, right beside/near us there was an anti-aircraft gun [Flak] and [they] began to work there, I stayed with the German soldiers until they had to flee, there nobody had us under suspicion, although we had wild curly-heads [heads of curls], but they took us for Ukrainians probably.- When the Germans fled in 1944, we wandered around in the village for a few days and at the invasion of the Russians we finally found our uncle, A doctor, who took us in and brought us to Krakau [Cracow]. ---- Now here another story, a Jew[ish]. orphanage in Warsaw, [HW: Krakau] Until Aug[ust] 1940 nothing at all happened there- so everything still ran under the same conditions as before the German-Polish war. But in March 1941 [it/the area] was then designated as [a] Jew[ish]. residential quarter and so the orphanage had to emigrate/move out---- thereupon in Aug[ust] (42) the resettlements/deportations began in [HW: 2] Krakau. [HW: 42 [?rd?] 41]

Questioner

Here is a strange story.

Questioner reads from an account of a Jewish orphanage in Krakow

One day they called the Order Service (Ordnungsdienst) and handed over a seven-year-old girl. She was a German girl. Her mother was allegedly Jewish, and her father was an SS man at the front. The mother had been arrested, and the child had first been kept in Berlin and then in a children’s home in …. She did not speak Polish. She wore a swastika on her coat and told me that this was a badge only Germans were allowed to wear. When I walked through the streets with her, she saw a German officer and pointed at him, saying that her father wore exactly that sort of uniform. She sang National Socialist songs, including “We are going against England”, and made no contact with the other children, always keeping apart. Apart because she probably felt herself to be German and superior to the others. But she shared the same fate as the other children in the home.

I do not understand a word of that.

Questioner reads from an account of a Jewish orphanage in Krakow

On 27 October 1942 the general deportation was to take place. The little children were…

[unintelligible on the recording]

and came to Belsec. … escaped the deportation as if by a miracle. The children had lost their parents and stood entirely alone—

[Further reading: unintelligible on the recording.]

carried out the order. On 13 March 1943 the ghetto was … by the Germans, and it was ordered that the population be resettled within a few hours in the camp …—

[Further passage: unintelligible on the recording.]

Questioner

Then, on 14 May 1944, the old and the sick and the children too are said to have been transported to the crematorium at Auschwitz.

Eichmann

The General Government authorities acted within their own jurisdiction there. Perhaps they also negotiated with the VWHA (SS Economic and Administrative Main Office). Frank negotiated with all sorts of offices.

Questioner

Then a matter from April 1944, according to information from the well-known physicist Lenak (?). A certain Wgner, in a letter to Reichsleiter Rosenberg, discusses the current state of physics and says:

Questioner reads from a letter to Rosenberg

the premature identification of Party offices with a particular scientific school of thought has, in any case, led to the few capable theoretical physicists being generally sceptical for years about the Party’s scientific efforts. Since their views have proved fruitful even in armaments physics, they have reason to believe they are right.

Questioner

Then here is also an investigation concerning Franz Lehar, from before the war. Your section had nothing to do with that sort of thing?

Eichmann

No, that would have been Hinkel’s responsibility. We had nothing at all to do with it.

Questioner

The same about Franz Liszt and also about Ludwig van Beethoven. A letter is addressed to an office:

Questioner reads aloud

“To the Main Office, concerning state powers.”

Open page image and German
Page 685 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 685 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Hier steht eine merkwürdige Sache, eines Tages rief man den Ordnungsdienst und übergab ihm ein 7 jähriges Mädchen, es war ein deutsches Mädchen, die Mutter war angeblich Jüdin und der Vater -S Mann und an der Front. Die Mutter hatte man verhaftet und das Kind erst in Berlin und dann in einem Kinderheim in … gehabt. Sie sprach nicht polnisch, trug ein Hakenkreuz am Mantel und erklärte mir, dies sei ein Abzeichen daß nur Deutsche tragen dürf… Als ich mit ihr durch die Straßen ging, sah sie einen deutschen Offizier und erklärte mit dem Finger auf ihn zeigend, daß ihr Vater genau so eine Uniform trage. Sie sang nationals. Lieder u.a. "wir fahren gegen Engeland" – und bekam keinen Kontakt mit den anderen Kindern und hielt sich stets abseits. Abseits weil sie sich wohl als Deutsche fühlte und sich den anderen überlegen fühlte, aber sie teilte das gleiche Schicksal mit den anderen Kinder im Heim. Davon verstehe ich kein Wort. Am 27 Okt. 1942 sollte dann die allgemeine Deportation stattfinden. Die kleinen Kinder wurden… (Unverständlich) und kamen nach Belsec. … ist wie ein Wunder der Deportation entgangen. Die Kinder hatten ihre Eltern verloren und standen ganz allein (weiteres Vorlesen unverständlich…) … führten den Befehl aus. Am 13 März 43 wurde das Ghetto von den Deutschen … und angeordnet, daß die Bevölkerung in ein paar Stunden in das Lager … umzusiedeln sei, (unverständlich weiters… Dann soll am 14 Mai 44 die Alten und Kranker und auch die Kinder in das Krematorium Auschwitz transportiert sein – Da haben die Gen Gov. Behörde mit eigener Zuständigkeit gearbeitet, vielleicht haben sie auch mit dem VWHA verhandelt. Der Frank hat ja mit allen möglichen Stellen verhandelt. Dann eine Sache vom April 44 nach Angaben des bekannten Physikers Lenak(?) und da wird von einem Wgner in einem Schreiben an den Reichsleiter Rosenberg von der gegenwärtigen Lage der Physik gesprochen und gesagt; Die voreilige Identifizierung von Parteistellen mit einer wissentschaftlichen Richtung hat jedenfalls dazu geführt, daß seit Jahren die wenigen leistungsfähigen, theoretischen Physiker den wissenschaftlichen Bemühungen der Partei ganz allgemein skeptisch gegenüber stehen. Da sich ihre Anschauungen bis hin in die Rüstungsphysik als fruchtbar erwiesen haben sie Grund zu der Überzeugung im Rechte zu sein. – Dann ist hier noch eine Untersuchung über Franz Lehar, noch vom vor dem Krieg. Mit sowas hat Ihr Referat nichts zu tun gehabt? Nein, das wäre Aufgabe von Hinkel gewesen, damit haben wir gar nichts zu tun gehabt Dasselbe auch über Franz Liszt, auch über Ludwig van Beethoven – da wird an ein Amt geschrieben; An das HA über staatl. Mächte. –

Draft translation

Volume 65 [HW: 685] Here stands a curious thing, one day they called the Ordnungsdienst [Order Service] and handed over to it a 7-year-old girl, it was a German girl, the mother was allegedly Jewish and the father an S[S] man and at the front. The mother had been arrested and the child first in Berlin and then in a children's home in had. She did not speak Polish, wore a swastika on her coat and declared to me, this is a badge that only Germans are allowed to wear When I walked with her through the streets, she saw a German officer and declared, pointing at him with her finger, that her father wore exactly such a uniform. She sang national songs, among others "we are marching against England"--- and re- ceived no contact with the other children and always kept herself apart. Apart because she probably felt herself to be German and felt superior to the others, but she shared the same fate with the other children in the home. Of that I understand not a word. On 27 Oct. 1942 the general deportation was then to take place. The small children were..... (Unintelligible) and came to Belsec. escaped the deportation as if by a miracle. The chil ren had lost their parents and stood entirely alone (further reading-aloud unin- telligible......) carried out the order. On 13 March 43 the ghetto was by the Germans and ordered, that the population within a few hours into the camp was to be resettled, (unintelligible further..... Then on 14 May 44 the old and sick and also the children are supposed to have been transported to the crematorium Auschwitz --- There the Gen[eral] Gov[ernment] authorit[y] worked with its own competence, perhaps they also negotiated with the VWHA. Frank did indeed negotiate with all possible offices. Then a matter from April 44 according to statements of the well-known physicist Lenak(?) and there it is spoken by a Wgner in a writing to the Reichsleiter Rosenberg of the present situation of physics and said; The premature identification of party offices with a scientific [DEL: direction x] direction has in any case led to it, that for years the few capable, theoretical physicists stand quite generally skeptical toward the scientific endeavors of the party. Since their views right into armaments-physics have proved fruitful they have grounds for the conviction to be in the right.-- Then here is also an investigation about Franz Lehar, still from before the war. With such a thing your section had nothing to do? No, that would have been Hinkel's task, with that we had nothing at all to do The same also about Franz Liszt, also about Ludwig van Beethoven----- there it is written to an office; To the HA about state powers.--

Questioner

To whom was that supposed to have been subordinate?

That does not emerge from anything.

One moment, may I have a look. Langenau, 21 October 1944. Langenau must be somewhere in southern Germany. So this is evidently an office of some branch that has already been relocated, and it calls itself the Music Office. No, I cannot say what sort of Main Office that is supposed to have been.

Questioner

Then a letter from August 1944:

Questioner reads aloud

“To the head of the Institute for the Jewish Question, Party comrade Dr. Schickart, Hungen, Upper Hesse.”

Eichmann

I know him very well.

Questioner

The letter comes from a Dr. Re-Koetten, SA Standartenführer.

Eichmann

That must be the Rosenberg Office, evidently relocated.

Questioner

Then here is a speech by Rosenberg, August 1942, on the occasion of a discussion between Göring, the Reich Commissioners and the representatives of the military commanders

[Typed deletion: …]

in the occupied territory on 6 August 1942.

Eichmann

I did not take part in that discussion.

Questioner

Rosenberg says, among other things:

Questioner reads from Rosenberg's speech of August 1942

we must not content ourselves with the Jews being pushed from one state to another, with a large Jewish ghetto perhaps still remaining here and there. Our goal can only be the old one: the Jewish question in the … and in Germany is solved only when there are no Jews left on the whole European continent.

Questioner

Did IV B 4 never have close contact with Rosenberg?

Eichmann

No, IV B 4 did not.

Questioner

Did you have the impression that the RSHA (Reich Security Main Office) had any points of contact with Rosenberg at all?

Eichmann

Well, we somehow rejected the man. I cannot say why either. But perhaps I would not have known at the time either.

Questioner

Then here is another interesting saying by Grand Admiral Dönitz for Heroes’ Memorial Day 1944:

Questioner reads from Dönitz's Heroes' Memorial Day speech

“What would our homeland be today if the Führer had not united us in National Socialism? Broken up into parties, and in the disintegrating poison of Jewry.”

Questioner

Then here is also a meeting at Göring’s about the Jewish question on 12 November 1939. Goebbels is quoted as saying:

“I am of the opinion that all synagogues that are no longer properly intact should be pulled down by the Jews. The Jews must pay for it. Here in Berlin the Jews are prepared to do that. The synagogues that burned in Berlin will be torn down by the Jews themselves. We can turn some into parking spaces and put up other buildings on some of the sites.”

Questioner

Then someone appears here indicated as No. 3, but without a name. Then here is a plan that existed for a long time to make one or two cinemas available to the Jews here in Berlin—

Open page image and German
Page 686 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 686 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Wem soll das unterstanden haben? Das geht aus nichts hervor. Moment, darf ich mal sehen; Langenau den 21 Okt 44 – Langenau muß irgendwo in Süddeutschland sein – also handelt es sich hier offenbar um eine bereits verlagerte Dienststelle irgendeiner Sparte und die nennt sich Amt Musik. – Nein, was das für ein HA gewesen sein soll, das kann ich nicht sagen. Dann ein Schreiben vom Aug. 44; An den Leiter des Institutes der Judenfrage. Parteigenosse Dr. Schickart, Hungen/Oberh. (Kenne ich sehr gut, – A.) Das Schreiben kommt von einem Dr. Re-Kötten, SA Standartenf. Das muß das Amt Rosenberg sein – offenbar verlagert. Dann ist hier eine Rede von Rosenberg, Aug 42. anläßlich einer Besprechung Georings mit den Reichskommissaren und mit den Vertreter der Militärbefehlshab… im besetzten Gebiet am 6 Aug. 42; An dieser Besprechung habe ich nicht teilgenommen. Da sagt Rosenberg u.a. wir dürfen uns nicht damit begnügen, daß die Juden von einem Staat zum anderen geschoben werden, daß vielleicht hier und da noch ein großes jüd. Ghetto steckt. sondern unser Ziel kann nur das alte sein; Die Judenfrage in dem … und in Deutschland ist nur dann gelöst, wenn es keinen Juden mehr auf dem ganzen europäischen Kontinent gibt. Hat IV B 4 nie mit Rosenberg Tuchfühlung gehabt? Nein, IV B 4 nicht. – Hatten Sie den Eindruck daß das RSHA überhaupt mit Rosenberg Kontaktpunkte gehabt hat? Nun, wir haben den Mann irgendwie abgelehnt, warum kann ich auch nicht sagen. Aber vielleicht hätte ich es auch damals nicht gewußt. Dann ist hier noch ein interessanter Spruch vom Großadmiral Dönitz, zum Heldengedenktag 1944; Was wäre aus unserer Heimat heute, wenn der Führer uns nicht im Nationals. geeint hätte. – Zersetzt in Partei, und in dem auflösenden Gift des Judentums. Dann ist hier noch eine Sitzung bei Goring über die Judenfrage am 12. Nov. 39; Da wird von Goebbels gesagt; Ich bin der Meinung daß sämtl Synagogen, die nicht mehr richtig Intakt sind, von den Juden niedergelegt werden, die Juden müssen das bezahlen. hier in Berlin sind die Juden dazu bereit. Die Synagogen, die in Berlin gebrannt haben, werden von den Juden selbst niedergerissen. Wir können sie zT in Parkplätze umgestalten. zT, dort andere Gebäude errichten. – Dann steht hier jemand, der angedeutet wird als Nr. 3, aber keinen Namen. Dann ist hier ein Plan der lange bstanden hat, hier in Berlin den Juden 1 bis 2 Kinos zur Verfügung zu stellen.

Draft translation

6 Volume 65 [HW: 686] To whom was this supposed to be subordinated? That does not emerge from anything. One moment, may [?I?] see; Langenau the 21 Oct 44----- Langenau must be somewhere in southern Germany-- so this evidently concerns an already re- located office of some branch or other and it calls itself Office Music.--- No, what kind of a HA [Main Office] this is supposed to have been, that I cannot say. Then a letter from Aug. 44; To the Head of the Institute of the Jewish Question. Party comrade Dr. Schickart, Hungen/Oberh. (I know him very well, ---A.) The letter comes from a Dr. Re-Koetten, SA Standartenf[ührer]. That must be the Rosenberg Office- evidently relocated. Then here is a speech by Rosenberg, Aug 42. on the occasion of a discussion of Göring's with the Reich Commissioners and with the representatives of the Military Commander[s] [DEL: xxxx] in the occupied territory on 6 Aug. 42; I did not take part in this discussion. There Rosenberg says among other things we must not content ourselves with the fact that the Jews are pushed from one state to another, that perhaps here and there a large Jew[ish] ghetto still remains. rather our goal can only be the old one; The Jewish question in the and in Germany is only then solved, when there are no more Jews at all on the whole European continent. Did IV B 4 never have contact with Rosenberg? No, IV B 4 not.-- Did you have the impression that the RSHA had any contact points with Rosenberg at all? Well, we somehow rejected the man, why I also cannot say. But perhaps I would not have known it back then either. Then here is also an interesting saying from Grand Admiral Dönitz, on the Heroes' Memorial Day 1944; What would have become of our homeland today, if the Führer had not united us in National S[ocialism].- Decomposed in party, and in the dissolving poison of Jewry. Then here is also a session at Göring['s] about the Jewish question on 12 Nov. 39; There it is said by Goebbels; I am of the opinion that all synagogues which are no longer properly intact should be pulled down by the Jews, the Jews must pay for that. here in Berlin the Jews are ready for that. The synagogues which have burned in Berlin will be torn down by the Jews themselves. We can partly convert them into parking lots. partly, erect other buildings there. ------- Then here stands someone who is indicated as No. 3, but no name. Then here is a plan which existed for a long time, to make available to the Jews here in Berlin 1 to 2 cinemas.

Questioner

where they could show Jewish films.

I know nothing about that either.

Questioner

Special compartments for Jews on the R.B. (Reich Railways)?

Eichmann

I do not know that either. The Reich Transport Minister was responsible for that.

Questioner

Some Jewish recreation facilities?

Eichmann

Those are all things that the Reich Association of Jews in Germany probably brought to the responsible offices. Although the Chief of the Security Police and SD was the supervisory authority, Reich Culture Administrator Hinkel, for example, and other offices too wrote directly to the Reich Association of Jews in Germany on their own initiative. There was no objection to that as such. For me, for example, the wishes of a Reich Culture Administrator Hinkel, whom I knew well, were accepted, because I accepted the man and what he wanted. I positively welcomed his getting in touch with the Jewish bodies directly, instead of bringing me in first and burdening me with extra work.

Questioner

But why did you have so much to do with Hinkel and nothing at all with the Rosenberg Office?

Eichmann

That came about for personal reasons. That is why I said that I knew Hinkel very well as a person too. In the course of the work one got to know a great many people. Now a man comes to see me in Vienna whom I had not known until then. He comes straight in and says: “Comrade Eichmann, I am a Party member with a number below 100,000.” That alone was very unusual to me. Hinkel always liked to joke. It is certainly unusual for a Reich Culture Administrator who wants to pay me a visit with a Standartenführer …—you must remember that I was a Hauptsturmführer at the time—to come in and introduce himself like that.

In the course of our conversation, one word led to another, and suddenly Hinkel and I had a pleasant, friendly, comradely relationship. A man who was an SS Gruppenführer, a man whose chief assistant was a Standartenführer O, a man travelling with that entourage and another desk officer, a Hauptsturmführer… So he was a highly placed person. On top of that, I heard that he was Party member No. 9. Then he comes to Vienna again and again, and the film ball takes place.

He invites me, one goes along; it was peacetime, after all. I liked the man, and evidently he liked me too; otherwise he would not have been at my office all the time. We went out privately too. It went so far that when I came to Berlin and we had difficulties with meals—because I used to go with my permanent deputy to an ordinary inn near the Memorial Church, and then staff became scarcer—you often had to wait for hours for the food to reach the table, sitting there in the dining room—

Open page image and German
Page 687 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 687 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Wo sie jüd. Filme vorführen könnten. – Davon weiß ich auch nichts. Besondere Abteile für die Juden in der R.B.? Das weiß ich auch nicht, da ist der Reichsverkehrsminist. zuständig gewesen. Einige jüd. Erholungsstätten? Das sind alles Sachen, die wahrscheinlich die Reichsvereinig. der Juden in Deutschland an die zuständig. Stellen heran getragen hat. Denn ungeachtet der Tatsache daß der Chef der Sipo und SD die Aufsichtsbehörde gewesen ist, hazB der Reichskult Verw. Hinkel und auch andere Stellen, die haben von sich aus die Reichsvereinig. der J. i. D. direkt angeschrieben. – Dagegen hat man an sich nichts einzuwenden gehabt, denn zB für mich sind die Wünsche eines Reichskult. Verw. Hinkels, den ich gut kannte, die sind akzeptiert worden. Weil ich den Mann akzeptierte und auch so sein Wollen. – Ich habe es direkt begrüßt, wenn er sich direkt mit den jüd. Instanzen in Verbindung setzte und nicht erst mich einschaltete und mir noch zusätzl. Arbeit aufbürdete. Aber wieso haben Sie mit Hinkel viel zu tun gehabt, und mit dem Amt Rosenberg gar nichts? Das ist aus menschlichen Erwägungen so gekommen, deswegen sagte ich ja, daß ich Hinkel auch als Mensch sehr gut kannte. Nun man hat im Laufe der Praxis sehr viele Leute kennen gelernt. Nun kommt einmal ein Mann in Wien zu mir, den ich bis dahin noch nicht kannte – er kommt schon rein und sagt; Kamerad Eichmann, ich bin ein Parteigenosse unter Hunderttausend. – Schon das war mir sehr ungewöhnlich gewesen. Hinkel beliebte immer sehr zu scherzen. – Es ist jedenfalls ungewöhnlich, daß ein Reichskltwalt. der mir seinen Besuch machen will mit einem Standartenf. … man darf nicht vergessen, ich war um jene Zeit Hstf. – und kommt nun herein und stellt sich so vor. – Im Laufe der Besprechung gab ein Wort das andere und mit einmal wurde es zwischen Hinkel und mir zu einem netten, freundschaftlichen, kameradschaftlichen Verhältnis. – Ein Mann der SS Grpf. war, ein Mann der als seinen ersten Mitarbeiter einen Standartenf. O hatte, ein Mann der im selben Gefolge reiste mit einem weiteren Sachbearbeiter Hstf. … also, war e eine hochgestellte Persönlichkeit. Noch dazu habe ich gehört er ist der Parteigenosse Nr. 9. – Und dann kommt er wieder nach Wien und wieder und es findet dann der Filmball statt – er ladet mich ein, man geht hin, es war ja Frieden. Der Mann hat mir gefallen und ich ihm offentsichtlich auch, sonst wäre er doch nicht dauernd bei mir gewesen auf der Dienststelle. Auch privat gingen wir aus. Das ging dann soweit, als ich dann nach Berlin hex kam, und wir dann Schwierigkeiten hatten mit dem Essen, denn ich ging mit meinem ständigen Vertreter in ein normales Wirtshaus in der Nähe der Gedächtnkirche – und dann wurde das Personal knapper, man mußte oft stundenlang warten bis das Essen auf den Tisch kam, und man saß so in der Wirtsstube drin. –

Draft translation

Volume 65 Where they could show Jewish films.--- I know nothing about that either. Special department for the Jews in the R.B.? I do not know that either, there the Reich Transport Minister was responsible. Some Jewish recreation sites? Those are all things that the Reich Association of Jews in Germany probably brought to the responsible offices. For notwithstanding the fact that the Chief of the Sipo and SD was the supervisory authority, [the fact that] the Reich Culture Administrator Hinkel and also other offices, they wrote directly to the Reich Association of the J[ews] i[n] G[ermany] on their own initiative.- One had nothing in itself to object to against that, for e.g. for me the wishes of a Reich Culture Administrator Hinkel, whom I knew well, they were accepted. Because I accepted the man and also thus his willing/intent.--- I directly welcomed it when he directly got in contact with the Jewish authorities and did not first bring me in and additionally burden me with more work. But why did you have much to do with Hinkel, and with the Rosenberg Office nothing at all? That came about out of human considerations, that is why I said indeed that I also knew Hinkel very well as a person. Now in the course of practice one got to know very many people. Now once a man comes to me in Vienna, whom I had not known until then--- he comes right in and says; Comrade Eichmann, I am a party member under the number one hundred thousand.--- Already that had been very unusual to me. Hinkel always liked very much to joke.---It is in any case unusual that a Reich Culture Administrator who wants to pay me his visit with a Standartenführer one must not for-get, I was at that time a Hauptsturmführer.----and now comes in and introduces himself thus.-- In the course of the discussion one word gave the other and all at once it became between Hinkel and me a nice, friendly, comradely relationship.--- A man who was an SS-Gruppenführer, a man who had as his first collaborator a Standartenführer O , a man who traveled in the same entourage with a further case-officer/desk-officer Hauptsturmführer.......... so, he was a highly placed personality. On top of that I heard he is party member No. 9.----- And then he comes again to Vienna and again and then the film ball takes place -- he invites me, one goes there, it was after all peacetime. The man pleased me and I evidently pleased him too, otherwise he would not have been constantly with me at the office. Privately too we went out. That went so far, when I then came to Berlin, and we then had difficulties with the food, for I went with my permanent deputy into a normal tavern in the vicinity of the Memorial Church--- and then the staff became scarce[r], one often had to wait for hours until the food came to the table, and one sat there inside the taproom.-----

and I told Hinkel about that once when I was late for an appointment. He said to me: “Then come to our artists’ home (Kuensterheim), Arnold Behrend’s place.” There was a kind of dining club there. People from the Reich Culture Administrator’s office went there, and people from various other offices of the Propaganda Ministry too. Journalists were also received there and honoured with a meal. They were very pleasant, comfortably furnished club rooms, and Günther and I went there. It was right next to the Rattenau villa.

Yes, we were there at Hinkel’s a few times. Perhaps we went once a fortnight when we were really hungry and the ration coupons were not enough, which often happened to me. Then I would say to Günther: “Call Hinkel or his colleague and ask whether we can come to lunch.” The food was nothing special, mostly something made with beetroot, but it did not cost any coupons, so I certainly preferred going about once a fortnight. Hinkkl came there too, when he was not away on official business, with his staff. We often sat together for two or three hours.

Now and then there was a cognac or a black coffee. I only want to say that Hinkel too lived a very spartan life. Everything was in a comfortable atmosphere, but that had existed long before the war and had not yet been destroyed. That is how I grew closer to Hinkel. I had no such close contact with anyone from the other offices as with Hinkel. I had it with Reischauer too, but I never went out to eat with him. When you eat with someone, and do it often, you also talk about things that have nothing to do with official business. That brings you closer to one another.

Questioner

Do you know whether a book called “The Jewish Ritual Murders” appeared in 1943?

Eichmann

Yes, I know something about that. Everything to do with the word “ritual murders”—the word came up very often, and Streicher and his circle used it. I myself, over and over again, the teacher Wurm, who held a special position with Streicher, whom I personally liked very much—the man always collected the newspaper clippings about me—and I often said to this man: “Come on, what on earth do you want with the word ‘ritual murders’? What sort of nonsense is that? Perhaps that did happen in the Middle Ages, but there were various other things then too. There is no Orthodox Jew today who favours ritual murder. It is all fairy tales, just like the fairy tales about the Elders of Zion who direct and control everything here. From a sound point of view, all that has nothing to do with the political position against the opponent any more. In the Middle Ages the Roman Catholic Church also burned witches merely because they were blonde.”

Questioner

But this comes from the RF (Reichsführer-SS)?

Eichmann

Yes, unfortunately the RF (Reichsführer-SS) was deeply caught up in these mystical trains of thought. Streicher always had an entrée with the RF (Reichsführer-SS) when he could report and recount some special new piece of information in this field, corroborating it, as it were.

Open page image and German
Page 688 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 688 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

und das erzählte ich dann auch mal Hinkel, als ich zu einer Verabredung zu spät kam, und er sagte zu mir, dann kommen Sie doch zu uns ins Künsterheim, von Arnold Behrend, und da gab es eine Art Kasino und da gingen die Leute vom Reichskultwalt. hin, da waren auch Leute von verschied. anderen Ämtern des Propagandaminist, hier wurden auch Journalisten empfangen, und wurden mit Essen geehrt – es waren sehr nette und behaglich eingerichtete Klubräume und da gingen Günter und ich hin – es war gleich neben der Rattenau Villa gewesen – ja und da waren wir dort bei Hinkel, einige Male, vielleicht gingen wir alle 14 Tage einmal hin, wenn wir mal wirklich Kohldampf schoben und die Marken nicht ausreichten, was bei mir oft vorkam – und dann sagte ich zu Günter ruf mal bei Hinkel an oder bei seinem Mitarbeiter und frag ihn ob wir zum Mittagessen kommen können. – Es war kein besonderes Essen dort, meistens etwas aus Rot Beete, aber es kostete kein Marken und so bevorzugte ich es mal so alle 14 Tage bestimmt einmal. Und da kam eben Hinkel auch hin, wenn er nicht auf Dienstreise war, mit seinen Mitarbeitern. und wir saßen dann zusammen oftmals 2 bis 3 Stunden – hin und wieder gab es auch mal einen Cognac oder einen schwarze Kaffee. – Ich will damit nur sagen, auch Hinkel lebte sehr spartanisch, es war nur alles in sehr behaglicher Atmosphäre, die aber längst schon vor Kriegsbeginn da war und noch nicht zerstört war. So bin ich Hinkel näher gekommen, ich habe mit keinem von den anderen Dienststellen ein so engen Kontakt gehabt wie mit Hinkel. Ich hatte ihn mit Reischauer auch, aber mit ihm bin ich nie essen gegangen und wenn man mit jemand essen geht und man tut es öfters, dann spricht man auch über Dinge die nichts mit dem Dienst zu tun haben. – Und dadurch kommt man sich dann näher. – Wissen Sie ob im Jahre 1943 ein Buch erschien, "Die jüd. Ritualmorde"? Ja, davon ist mir etwas bekannt. – Alles was so mit dem Wort Ritualmorde zu tun hat, und das Wort kam sehr häufig vor, und zwar hat das Streicher gebraucht und sein Kreis. Ich selber habe zum wiederholtesten Male den Lehrer Wurm, der bei Streicher eine besondere Stelle einnahm, den ich persönlich auch sehr gern mochte – der Mann hat immer die Zeitungsausschnitte gesammelt, die über mich erschienen – und diesem Mann habe ich oft gesagt; Kinder was wollt ihr bloß mit dem Wort Ritualmorde, was sind das für Mätzchen? … Vielleicht hat es das einmal im Mittelalter gegeben, aber da gab es auch noch verschied. andere Dinge, es gibt doch heute keinen orthodoxen Juden mehr, der den Ritualmord vorzieht. daß sind doch alles Märchen, genau so wie die Märchen von den Weisen von Zion, die hier alles lenken und leiten. Das hat doch alles von einem gesunden Standpunkt aus gesehen, nichts mehr mit dem polit. Standpunkt gegen den Gegner zu tun. Im Mittelalter sind auch Hexen verbrannt worden von der römisch-kath. Kirche, nur weil sie blond waren – Aber dieses kommt vom RF? Ja, leider ist der RF sehr in diesen mystizistischen Gedankengängen verhaftet gewesen. – Beim RF hatte der Streicher immer ein Entre wenn er ihm wieder auf diesem Gebiet eine besondere Neuigkeit gewissermaßen erhärtend berichten und erzählen konnte.

Draft translation

Band 65 [HW: 688] and I then told that too to Hinkel once, when I came too late to an appointment, and he said to me, then do come to us at the Kuensterheim [Künstlerheim?], of Arnold Behrend, and there was a kind of casino there and the people from the Reichskult walt. [Reichskulturkammer? Reichskulturwalter?] went there, there were also people from vari. other offices of the Propaganda Ministry, here journalists were also received, and were honored with food ----- they were very nice and comfortably furnished club rooms and Guenter and I went there-- it had been right next to the Rathenau villa----yes and there we were there at Hinkel's, a few times, perhaps we went there once every 14 days, when we were really ravenously hungry and the ration coupons were not enough, which with me often happened---- and then I said to Guenter phone Hinkel or his colleague and ask him whether we can come to lunch.-- It was no special meal there, mostly something out of red beet[?t?], but it cost no coupons and so I preferred it once so every 14 days certainly once. And there Hinkkl [Hinkel] would also come, when he was not on an official trip[?,nx?] with his colleagues. and we then sat together often 2 to 3 hours -- now and then there was also a cognac or a black coffee.-- I only want to say with this, Hinkel too lived very spartanly, it was only all in a very comfortable atmosphere, which however had already long been there before the beginning of the war and was not yet destroyed. So I came closer to Hinkel, I had with none of the other offices such a close contact as with Hinkel. I had it [him?] with Reischauer too, but with him I never went to eat and when one goes to eat with someone and one does it often, then one also speaks about things that have nothing to do with the service.---- And through that one then comes closer to one another.---- Do you know whether in the year 1943 a book appeared, "The Jew. Ritual Murders" ? Yes, of that something is known to me.------- Everything that thus has to do with the word ritual murders, and the word came up very frequently, and namely Streicher used that and his circle. I myself have for the umpteenth time [taken?] the teacher Wurm, who at Streicher's occupied a special position, whom I personally also very much liked-- the man always collected the newspaper clippings that appeared about me---- and to this man I often said; children what on earth do you want with the word ritual murders, what kind of antics are those?....Perhaps it existed once in the Middle Ages, but there were also still vari. other things, there is after all today no more orthodox Jew who prefers ritual murder [i.e. gives ritual murder precedence]. that is after all all fairy tales, exactly like the fairy tales of the Wise Men of Zion, who steer and direct everything here. That has after all all, seen from a healthy standpoint, nothing more to do with the [?polit.?] standpoint against the opponent. In the Middle Ages witches were also burned by the Roman-Cath. church, only because they were blond---- But this comes from the RF ? Yes, unfortunately the RF was very caught up in these mysticist trains of thought.--- With the RF, Streicher always had an entrée when he could again in this area report and recount to him a special piece of news, so to speak corroboratingly.

Questioner

The RF (Reichsführer-SS) sends Gruppenführer Kaltenbrunner 100 copies of this book so that K. can distribute them to the men who deal with the Jewish question. He further instructs that experts in Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria are to conduct investigations everywhere into ritual murders by Jews. He also wanted to get the ritual murders into the press to make it easier to remove the Jews from those countries.

Yes, I cannot say any more about it—

[Typed deletion: …]

Well, the RF (Reichsführer-SS) could claim that at the time, but where was there anyone—even if everything in the book had been fabricated—where was there anyone who could publicly refute him then? The Jews could not. Even if it did happen once, it was so long ago that it is of no interest for our present life.

Questioner

Then the RF (Reichsführer-SS) suggests here setting up a purely antisemitic illegal radio station for England and America. He even wants to contact Grf. (Gruppenführer) Martin and follow and monitor the court reports and police notices from England saying that a child is missing.

Eichmann

That is certainly very skilful propaganda, I admit. In wartime it was quite valuable, certainly.

Questioner

Do you know that the A.A. (Foreign Office) had a Jewish-affairs officer and an Aryanisation adviser?

Eichmann

Yes, of course. Rademacher was responsible for Jewish questions, and later it was von Thadden.

Questioner

You were never at the working conferences of these Jewish-affairs officers and Aryanisation advisers in …?

Eichmann

No, never.

Questioner

It says here that a working conference is to take place in …, jointly with the RSHA (Reich Security Main Office), probably on 3 or 4 April 1944.

Eichmann

Yes, perhaps Günther went there. I was not there. I only know that the Foreign Office had Jewish-affairs officers; they were constantly in evidence. He even had to—the way—before the RSHA (Reich Security Main Office) could get involved at all, the Foreign Office first had to have settled the main question.

Questioner

Then it goes on here about a letter from Litzmannstadt to the accounts department. Among other things:

Questioner reads from a Litzmannstadt ghetto administration letter

“I ask you to ensure, under all circumstances, that in future the accounting concerning Jews is done with the greatest care, and above all that every account is recalculated, so that we do not have to have errors pointed out to us by the Eldest of the Jews.”

Open page image and German
Page 689 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 689 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Der RF schickt dem Grpf. Kaltenbrunner 100 Stück von diesem Buch, damit K. sie an die Männer die mit der Judenfrage zu tun haben, verteilen kann. – Er erteilt weiter die Weisung, daß überall Untersuchungen anzustellen sind über Ritualmorde der Juden von Sachverständigen in Rumänien, Ungarn und Bulgarien Er wollte auch die Ritualmorde in die Presse bringen, um damit die Herausnahme der Juden aus den Ländern zu erleichtern. Ja, mehr kann ich nicht dazu sagen – gut, das hat der RF damals behaupten können, aber wo gab es jemanden, selbst wenn alles gefälscht gewesen wäre, was in dem Buch drin stand, wo es jemand der es ihm damals öffentlich widerlegen konnte? Die Juden konnten es nicht. Selbst wenn es das einmal gegeben hat, so ist es doch schon so lange her, daß es für unser gegenwärtiges Leben doch garnicht mehr interessant ist. Dann deutet der RF hier an, eine rein antisemitischen illegalen Sender für Engal… und Amerika zu machen und will sich sogar mit Grf. Martin in Verbindung zu setzen und die Gerichtsnachrichten und die Polizeiausschreibungen daß ein Kind vermißt wird, aus England zu verfolgen und zu kontrollieren. Das ist natürlich eine sehr geschickte Propaganda, das gebe ich zu, im Kriege ist es recht wertvoll gewesen, sicherlich. – Wissen Sie daß das A.A. einen Judenreferente und ein Arisierungsberater hatte? Ja selbst. Rademacher war zuständig für die Judenfragen und später war es von Thadden. Sie sind nie auf den Arbeitstagungen dieser Judenreferenten und Arisierungsberater in … gewesen? Nein, nie – Hier wird gesagt daß eine Arbeitstagung in … gemeinsam mit dem RSHA stattfindet, voraussichtlich am 3 od 4 April 44, – Ja, vielleicht ist Günter hingefahren, ich war nicht dort gewesen. – Mir ist nur bekannt, daß das AA Judenreferenten hatte, sie traten ja laufend in Erscheinung, er mußte ja sogar den Weg, bevor sich das RSHA überhaupt einschalten konnte, da mußte das AA die Hauptfrage erst einmal gelöst haben. Dann steht hier weiter von einem Schreiben von Litzmannstadt an die Buchhaltung U.A. ich bitte unter allen Umständen für die Folge dazu zu sorgen, daß bei der Judenberechnung äußerst sorgfältig gearbeitet wird und vor allen Dingen jede Abrechnung nachgerechnet wird. Damit wir uns nicht von dem Ältesten der Juden auf Fehler aufmerksam machen müssen.

Draft translation

9 Band 65 [HW: 689] The RF sends the Grpf. "altenbrunner 100 copies of this book, so that K. can distribute them to the men who have to do with the Jewish question.- He further issues the directive that everywhere investigations are to be conducted concerning ritual murders of the Jews by experts in Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria He also wanted to bring the ritual murders into the press, in order thereby to make easier the removal of the Jews from the countries. Yes, more than that I cannot say about it---- [DEL: [illegible]] good, that the RF could claim back then, but where was there anyone, even if everything had been falsified, what stood in the book, where [was there] someone who could publicly refute it to him back then? The Jews could not. Even if it did exist once, it is nevertheless already so long ago that for our present life it is really not interesting anymore. Then the RF here hints at making a purely antisemitic illegal transmitter for England and America and even wants to get in contact with Grf. Martin and to trace and control the court news and the police notices that a child is missing, from England. That is naturally a very clever propaganda, I admit that, in the war it was quite valuable, certainly.----- Do you know that the A.A. had a Jew[DEL: adviser] [HW: Referent] and an Aryanization adviser? Yes of course. Rademacher was responsible for the Jewish questions and later it was von Thadden. You were never at the working conferences of these Jewish referents and Aryanization advisers in ? No, never-- Here it is said that a working conference takes place in together with the RSHA, presumably on the 3 or 4 April 44, --- Yes, perhaps Guenter went there, I had not been there.--- It is only known to me that the AA had Jewish referents, they did after all appear continually, he even had to [do] the way, before the RSHA could switch in at all, there the AA first had to have solved the main question. Then here it further states about a letter from Litzmannstadt to the accounting department among other things I ask under all circumstances for the future to see to it that in the Jewish calculation extremely careful work is done and above all every settlement/accounting is recalculated. So that we do not have to be made aware of errors by the Eldest of the Jews.

Questioner reads aloud

The Jewish people has the distinction of having produced the greatest champion of social equality and political rights for homosexuals and other representatives of perverse inclinations, sadists, ma…, namely the Berlin neurologist Dr. M. Hirschfeld. So it is understandable that in the Jewish underworld there is also no shortage of representatives of the equally entitled trade in love.

Questioner

Were you present at the RF’s (Reichsführer-SS’s) speech at a conference in Posen, on 4 October 1943?

No, not in Posen.

Questioner

The RF (Reichsführer-SS) says there, among other things:

Questioner reads from Himmler's Posen speech

“When we enter into agreements, we must keep them. If I enter into an agreement with an agent, even an unsavoury character, I keep it. I stand by that view unconditionally. When I announce in the General Government that anyone who reports a Jew who has found shelter and is in hiding will receive one third of that Jew’s property, it very often happens that Secretary Huber, who takes unauthorised rides whenever he can, or quickly orders a new telephone or new pencils—who never economises—suddenly chooses to economise for the German Reich. He says, for example: this Jew has 12,000 RM (Reichsmarks), so I would have to hand over 4,000 RM to the Pole who reported him. No, I will save that for Germany; the Pole will get only 400. So some little man goes and breaks the word given by a whole organisation. Such things must not be possible.”

Eichmann

That agrees with what I told you: when I had promised the Jews something, I kept it.

Questioner

Then here is a file note dated 17 May 194….

Questioner reads from a file note on Rosenberg

On the occasion of a visit by the Grand Mu… to Rosenberg, Rosenberg promised to issue a notice to the press that the term “antisemitism” was no longer to be used.

Eichmann

Yes, I said that back when I returned from Palestine. I warned against that word, against using that word. It had not particularly struck me before that either.

Questioner

Then a matter from 1942: in the wording about forced removal “to the East”, the phrase “to the East” is not to be used, to avoid a “deformation” (Deformierung) of the occupied eastern territories. The expression “deportation” is to be avoided as well.

Eichmann

Who does that come from?

Questioner

From the Military Commander in France.

Eichmann

Well, that applies only to France. With us, expressions such as “to the East” and “deportation” continued to be used.

Open page image and German
Page 690 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 690 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Das jüd. Volk hat in dem Ruhm den größten Vorkämpfer für die gesellsch. Gleichberechtigung und der polit. Eigenberechtigungen der Homorsexuellen und sonstigen Vertreter perverser Neigungen, Sadisten, Ma… hervorgebracht zu haben, nämlich den Berliner Nervenarzt Dr. M. Hirschfeld. So ist es begreiflich, daß es in dem Bereiche der jüd. Unterwelt auch an Vertretern des gleichberechtigten Liebesgewerbe nicht fehlt. Waren Sie zugegen bei der Rede des RF bei einer Tagung in Posen? Am 4. Okt. 43 Nein, in Posen nicht. – Da sagt der RF u.a.; Wenn wir Verträge abschließen, dann müssen wir sie halten, wenn ich mit einem Agenten, selbst mit einem üblen Subjekt einen Vertr… schließe, so halte ich den Vertrag. Für diese Auffassung trete ich bedingungslos ein. Wenn ich im Gen. Gov ausschreibe, daß derjenige der einen untergeschl…ten, versteckten Juden angibt, ein Drittel von dessen Vermögen bekommt, dann passiert es sehr oft, daß dann der Sekr. Huber, der wenn es geht Schwarzfahrte… macht, oder schnell ein neues Telefon oder neue Bleistifte bestellt, der also nie spart, dann plötzlich für das deutsche Reich zu sparen beliebt. Er sagt zB. dieser Jude hat 12000 RM – da müßte ich dem Polen der ihn angab 4000 RM aushändigen, nein, die spare ich für Deutschland, der Pole bekommt nur 400 Da geht also nun ein kleiner Mann hin und bricht das von einer Gesamtorganis. gegebene Wort, daß sind Dinge, die unmöglich sein müssen. Das deckt sich mit dem, was ich Ihnen sagte – wenn ich den Juden etwas versprochen hatte, so habe ich es gehalten. – Dann hier eine Aktennotiz vom 17 Mai 1943, anläßlich eines Besuches des Großmu… bei Rosenberg, versprach Rosenberg an die Presse einen Hinweis zu geben, wonach in Zukunft die Bezeichnung, Antisemitismus, zu unterbleiben ha… Ja, das habe ich schon damals gesagt als ich aus Palast. zurückkam, da habe ich vor diesem Wort gewarnt, vor dem Gebrauch dieses Wortes. Es war mir vorher auch nicht weiter aufgefallen. – Dann eine Sache von 1942, daß die Worte von einem Zwangsabschub nach dem Osten daß das "nach dem Osten" nicht zu gebrauchen ist um eine Deformierung der besetzten Ostgebiete zu vermeiden. – Ebenfalls der Ausdruck "Deportation" soll vermieden werden, Von wem kommt das? Von dem Militärbefehlshaber in Frankreich. Nun, das ist gültig nur für Frankreich. Bei uns sind diese Worte wie "nach dem Osten" und "Deportation" immer weiter gelaufen. –

Draft translation

No usable literal translation is stored for this sheet.

On that, I would like to say that in dictation, for example, no distinction was made between deportation and evacuation either. If someone had to write to the Reich Transport Office, for example—even though Novak dealt with everything orally as far as that went—the central authority still had to have the written record. It would say, for example: “Re: Evacuation of Jews from France.”

Questioner

Have you ever heard of Operation Bernhard?

Eichmann

No.

Questioner

Obersturmbannführer Fritz Dörner?

Eichmann

Yes, Dörner. Yes, he was once in the SD (Security Service), chief of staff, in the early days of the SD Main Office.

Questioner

He was head of Department VI F 4 of the RSHA (Reich Security Main Office).

Eichmann

Yes, that is right. That is the same Dörner; he went to Schellenberg. Dörner came to see me several times when I was the IV B 4 desk officer. He played a part in the SD (Security Service) back when our chief of staff was an Oberstabs…, Vollheim. Vollheim had been an Oberleutnant zur See (naval lieutenant). Heydrich brought him in as a naval comrade of his, and we were subordinate to him.

Questioner

A Sturmbannführer Bernhard Krüger?

Eichmann

No, I do not know him.

Questioner

You do not know that Bernhard was instructed in 1943 to turn Block 19 of Sachsenhausen concentration camp into a modern printing workshop, where counterfeit pounds and dollars were to be produced?

Eichmann

Yes, now I know what it was. That was Dörner. Dörner came to me and said that he could give me many millions of pounds, and dollars too, which were being counterfeited solely on the orders of the RF (Reichsführer-SS). The

[Typed deletion: …]

best counterfeiters from the German penitentiaries had been engaged for it. They had treated the fellows quite kindly. They had every privilege and every freedom. A large counterfeiting workshop had been set up in a concentration camp. The people lived in the lap of luxury and had developed into super-masters. I was also told to think about it. A superior told me that too—it could have been Müller, or Heydrich or Kaltenbrunner—about how far I could use Jews for it in the Jewish sphere: equip them with a great deal of money, and they would have to travel abroad with it

[Typed deletion: …]

They were all to become rich; the pounds and dollars just had to be passed on. He asked me what amount he could count on, because he had to form a rough idea of how much he should produce, and how much I felt able to take on. Well, I thought it over. I certainly called Günther in and discussed the matter with him. We considered how much we could give the Jews. Naturally it was clear that only Jews could be considered

Open page image and German
Page 691 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 691 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Dazu möchte ich sagen, daß beim Diktat zB auch kein Unterschied gemacht wurde zwischen Deportation und Evakuierung, wenn jemand zB an das Reichsverkehrsamt zu schreiben hatte, wenn auch Novak soweit alles mündlich behandelte, so mußte doch die schriftliche Unterlage in der Zentralinstanz, so hieß es zB.; Betr. Evakuierung von Juden aus Frankreich. – Haben Sie einmal von dem Unternehmen Bernhard gehört? Nein – Oberstbaf. Fritz Dörner? Ja, Dörner, ja, er war einmal im SD gewesen, Stabsführer, solange es sich noch um die Anfangsgründe des SD HA handelte Er war Chef der Abteilung VI F 4, des RSHA Ja, das stimmt, das ist derselbe Dörner, der ist zu Schellenberg gegangen. Dörner war auch einige Male bei mir gewesen als ich Referent IV B 4 war. – Er hat damals im SD eine Rolle gespielt, als wir als Stabsführer einen Oberstabs… Vollheim hatten, Vollheim war Oberlt. zur See gewesen und diesen hat Heydrich, als sein Marinekameraden mit hereingebracht und wir waren ihm unterstellt. Einen Stbaf Bernhard Krüger? Nein, den kenne ich nicht. Sie wissen nicht daß Bernhard 43 den Auftrag bekommen hatte, den Block 19 des KL Sachsenhausen in eine moderne Druckwerkstatt umzuwandeln, wo also die falschen Pfund und Dollars hergestellt werden sollten. Ja, jetzt weiß ich es, daß war der Dörner gewesen – Dörner kam zu mir und sagte mir, daß er mir viele Mill Pfunde geben könnte, und auch Dollars, die nur auf Befehl des RF gefälscht wurden und die besten Geldfälscher aus den deutschen Zuchthäusern hätte man da vereinbart, man wäre mit den Brüdern recht freundlich umgesprungen, sie hätten alle Vergünstigungen und alle Freiheiten man hätte in einem KL eine große Fälscherwerkstatt eingerichtet, die Leute lebten dort in Saus und Braus und hätten sich zu Supermeister entwickelt. – Und man sagte mir auch, sich solle mir Gedanken machen – das sagte mir aber auch ein Vorgesetzter, es könnte Müller gewesen sein, od auch Heydrich od Kaltenbrunner darüber wieweit ich auf dem jüd. Sektor Juden dafür einsetzen könnte, die mit sehr viele Geld ausstatten und die mit diesem Geld ins Ausland fahren müßten. Sie sollten alle reich werden, nur die Pfunde und die Dollar müßten an den Mann gebracht werden. Und er frug mich, mit welchem Betrag er rechnen könne denn er mußte sich ja ungefähr ein Konzept machen, wieviel er herstellen soll, und was ich mir trauen würde zu übernehmen. – Nun, da bin ich mit mir zu Rate gegangen, ich habe sicher Günter hereinbeordert, und habe die Sache mit ihm besprochen und wir haben uns nun überlegt, wieviel wir den Juden nun geben können. Natürlich war es klar, daß nur Juden in Frage kommen

Draft translation

11 Volume 65 [HW: 691] To this I would like to say that in dictation, for example, no distinction was made either between deportation and evacuation, if someone for example had to write to the Reich Transport Office, even if Novak handled everything orally to that extent, still the written record in the central authority was required, thus it was called for example: "Re: Evacuation of Jews from France."-- Did you ever hear of the enterprise Bernhard? No-- Oberstbannführer Fritz Doerner? Yes, Doerner, yes, he had once been in the SD, staff leader, as long as it was still a matter of the initial foundations of the SD HA [Head Office] He was chief of Department VI F 4, of the RSHA Yes, that is correct, that is the same Doerner, he went over to Schellenberg. Doerner had also been at my place a few times when I was desk officer IV B 4.---- He played a role back then in the SD, when as staff leader we had an Oberstabs [chief of staff] Vollheim, Vollheim had been a Oberleutnant zur See [naval lieutenant] and this man Heydrich brought in as his navy comrade, and we were subordinated to him. A Sturmbannführer Bernhard Krueger? No, I don't know him. You don't know that Bernhard in '43 had received the assignment to convert Block 19 of the KL [concentration camp] Sachsenhausen into a modern printing workshop, where thus the counterfeit pounds and dollars were to be produced. Yes, now I know it, that was Doerner----- Doerner came to me and told me that he could give me many millions of pounds, and also dollars, which were counterfeited only on the order of the RF [Reichsführer], and one had arranged there the [DEL: xxxxxx] best money-counterfeiters from the German penitentiaries, one had dealt with the fellows quite in a friendly manner, they had all the privileges and all the freedoms, one had set up a large counterfeiting workshop in a KL [concentration camp], the people lived there in the lap of luxury and had developed into super-masters.- And I was also told, I should give it some thought----- but that was also told to me by a superior, it could have been Mueller, or also Heydrich or Kaltenbrunner, about to what extent I could employ Jews for it in the Jewish sector, to equip them with very much money and who with this money would have to travel [DEL: xxxkrewx] abroad. They were all to become rich, only the pounds and the dollars had to be brought to the man [sold/distributed]. And he asked me with what amount he could reckon, for he had to make himself an approximate concept of how much he should produce, and what I would trust myself to take on.-- Now, then I took counsel with myself, I surely ordered Guenter to come in, and discussed the matter with him and we then considered how much we could now give the Jews. Of course it was clear that only Jews came into question

who were also reliable, who would not hand these pounds over to the enemy. But we had plenty of those. The Jew was certainly suited to that sort of thing. I no longer know today what amount I named to Dörner, but it was a very high amount, and he went away extremely satisfied. So Dörner will also have approached other people besides me and will have put together a substantial total. He also told me that they drop the smaller notes from the aircraft flying to England and expect an enormous success from it. He showed me some samples too, and they seemed very good to me. I knew the pound note from my journey to the Orient. I told Dörner that everything I can do on my side will be done; we can do the enemy a great deal of harm with it.

Questioner

And did it turn out that way afterwards?

Eichmann

No, unfortunately not. I was not involved in the whole matter at all; I did not receive a single pound. I cannot say why either.

Questioner

It goes on to say that it was so successful that in 1945 the bank in England was forced to withdraw all the one-pound notes in circulation.

Eichmann

Yes, the best masters of counterfeiting were brought in, and there were some Jews among them too.

Yes, they were the Jews Salomon, S. …; then Max and … were there too.

Questioner

It also says that these people lived a life of glory and sweetness (Glorie und Dulce) in the concentration camp.

Eichmann

Oh, I do know that. Some of them were filthy rich. They were all set free afterwards. They were cleared of all previous convictions, and they were promised freedom at the end of the war—something like that was how it happened. And I am convinced, knowing the RF (Reichsführer-SS) as I do, that he really would have let those gangsters go, because he had promised them.

Questioner

Only the counterfeiting of dollar notes seems not to have succeeded. You do not know whether those crates of counterfeit money and printing plates also arrived down there in Austria, where Kaltenbrunner and Schellenberg were?

Eichmann

I do not know. But who told me that the pounds in the casket were counterfeit? I gave the mayor of Alt Aussee some pounds and dollars; he had been so kind to my people. When I asked what would become of him and whether he was not leaving, he told me that he could not. So I promised him the pounds and dollars for possible hard times. My [unexpanded title: Reg.] Wunscha… then gave them to him. He was very pleased at the time. But later I heard somewhere that there were difficulties, that the one-pound notes I had were counterfeit. I thought to myself at the time that they really had been [one partly written word not translated: A…leuchter], if only they, at least in this matter—

Open page image and German
Page 692 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 692 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

die auch verläßlich waren, die diese Pfunde nun nicht den Feinden auslieferte… Aber von solchen hatten wir ja genug, der Jude war zu so einer Sache schon geeignet. Ich weiß nun heute nicht mehr, welchen Betrag ich dem Dörner gesagt habe, es war aber ein sehr hoher Betrag und er ist außerordentlich befriedigt abgezogen – so wird Dörner auch noch andere Leute außer mich angegangen sei… und wird so eine anständige Summe zusammen bekommen haben. – Er sagte mir auch noch, daß die kleineren Noten sie mit den Flugzeugen die nach England fliegen, abwerfen. Und daß sie sich einen gewaltigen Erfolg davon versprechen. – Und er zeigte mir auch einige Muster und es schien mir doch sehr ordentlich. Denn die Pfundnote kannte ich von meiner Reise nach dem Orient – und ich sagte Dörner, daß alles was von meiner Seite aus ich machen kann, wird gemacht, damit können wir den Feind wunderbar schädigen. – Und wurde es dann auch so nachher. – Nein, leider nicht, ich wurde mit der ganzen Sache gar nicht befaßt, ich bekam nicht ein einziges Pfund. – Warum kann ich auch nicht sagen. – Es heißt weiter – es war jedenfalls so erfolgreich, daß die Bank in England 1945 genötigt war, sämtl im Umlauf befindlichen 1 Pfundnoten aus dem Verkehr zu ziehen. Ja, es wurden ja auch die besten Meister für Fälschungen rangezogen, auch einige Juden waren darunter. – Ja, es waren die Juden Salomon, S. …, dann waren dabei Max und … Steht auch dabei, daß diese Leute ein Leben in Glorie und Dulce verlebten im KO, das weiß ich aber, die waren zT stinkend reich, sie wurden ja dann alle in Freiheit gesetzt. Von allen Vorstrafen wurden sie entlastet und zum Kriegsende wurde ihnen die Freiheit versprochen, irgendso war es gewesen. – Und ich bin überzeugt, so wie ich den RF kenne, diese Gangster hätte er tatsächlich ausgelassen, weil er es ihnen versprochen hatte. – Nur die Fälschung von Dollarnoten scheint nicht gelungen zu sein. Sie wissen nicht ob diese Falschgeldkisten und Druckplatten auch dort unten wo Kaltenbrunner und Schellenberg saßen in Östreich angekommen sind? Ich weiß es nicht – aber wer hat mir gesagt, daß die Pfunde die in der Schatull… waren, falsch waren? Ich habe dem Bürgermeister von Alt Aussee einige Pfunde und Dollar gegeben, der sich so nett meinen Leuten gegenüber gezeigt hat – auf meine Frage was aus ihm wird, ob er nicht wegging sagte er mir, daß er nicht könne und da versprach ich ihm die Pfunde und Dollar für evtl. Notzeiten, die ihm dann mein Reg. Wunscha- gab. Er freute sich damals sehr. Aber später habe ich dann irgendwo einmal gehört, daß da Schwierigkeiten lagen, daß die 1 Pfundnoten die ich hatte, daß die gefälscht gewesen sind – ich dachte mir noch damals, das sind doch wirklich A…leuchter gewesen, wenn sie doch wenigstens in dieser Sache

Draft translation

12 Volume 65 [HW: 692] who were also reliable, who now did not hand over these pounds to the enemies But of such we had indeed enough, the Jew was already suited for such a thing. I do not know today anymore which sum I named to Doerner, but it was a very high sum and he withdrew extraordinarily satisfied---- thus Doerner will also have approached other people besides me and will have gotten together such a decent sum.--- He also told me further that the smaller notes they drop with the airplanes that fly to England. And that they promise themselves an enormous success from it.--And he also showed me some samples and it seemed to me indeed very proper. For the pound note I knew from my journey to the Orient---- and I said to Doerner that everything that from my side I can do will be done, with it we can wonderfully damage the enemy.---- And did it then also become so afterwards.-- No, unfortunately not, I was not at all involved with the whole matter, I did not get a single pound.---Why I also cannot say.--- It says further---- it was in any case so successful that the bank in England [England] in 1945 was compelled to withdraw all 1-pound notes in circulation from circulation. Yes, indeed also the best masters for forgeries were pulled in, also some Jews were among them.----- Yes, it was the Jews Salomon, S. , then there were among them Max and ..... It also states that these people lived a life in glory and dulce in the K O, but that I know, they were in part stinking rich, they were then indeed all set free. From all prior convictions they were relieved and at the war's end freedom was promised to them, somehow so it had been.---- And I am convinced, as I know the RF, these gangsters he would actually have let out, because he had promised it to them.--- Only the forgery of dollar notes seems not to have succeeded. You do not know whether these counterfeit-money crates and printing plates also arrived down there where Kaltenbrunner and Schellenberg sat in Austria? I do not know it--- but who told me that the pounds that were in the casket were false? I gave the mayor of Alt Aussee some pounds and dollars, who had shown himself so kind toward my people---to my question what would become of him, whether he would not go away, he told me that he could not, and then I promised him the pounds and dollars for possible times of need, which then my Reg. [TS INS: Wunscha-] gave. He was very glad at the time. But later I then somewhere once heard that there lay difficulties there, that the 1-pound notes that I had, that these had been forged---I still thought to myself at the time, those were really A........candlesticks, if they had at least in this matter

had given us genuine notes, just at that time.

Questioner

Do you know whether IV B 4 intervened to prevent German firms, important firms, from using Jewish representatives abroad?

Eichmann

Yes, that is right. It once came to my notice through some submission I received. I no longer know from whom, but it came to me, and I then had the necessary steps set in motion…

[end unintelligible on the recording]

Open page image and German
Page 693 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 693 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

uns echte Noten gegeben hatten, gerade zu dieser Zeit. – Wissen Sie ob IV B 4 interveniert hat, um zu verhindern, daß deutsche Firmen, bedeutende Firmen, sich jüd. Vertreter bedienen im Ausland? Ja, das stimmt. Es fiel mir einmal auf durch irgendeine Vorlage die ich bekam, von wem weiß ich nicht mehr, aber es kam zu mir, und ich habe dann die nötige Schritte in die Wege leiten lassen… (Schluß unverständlich…)

Draft translation

13 Volume 65 had given us genuine notes, precisely at this time.-- Do you know whether IV B 4 intervened, in order to prevent significant firms, German firms, from making use of Jewish representatives abroad? Yes, that is correct. It once caught my attention through some submission that I received, from whom I no longer know, but it came to me, and I then had the necessary steps set in motion...... (Conclusion unintelligible.......)

Questioner

In 1942 a request was brought to Office IV B 4 as a secret Reich matter (GRS), to help build up a collection of skeletons. June 1942.

… a collection of skeletons I of course do not remember. A professor, a medical man from the University of Strasbourg, came to me in some year or other—or was it another professor from some institute for …? And he told me he needed—for the University of Strasbourg—now I just want to establish who it was who came to me. If you tell me his name was Hirth, then he had not been with me, or at least he appeared before me as a second person whom I paid no further attention to. The one I paid attention to was the speaker; that was a man—

Questioner

An SS Hstf. (Hauptsturmführer), Dr. Bruno Beger.

Eichmann

The one who came to me had been an Oberstbaf. (Obersturmbannführer). Was he not from the …—

Unknown speaker

Yes, from the … Institute for Military-Scientific Applied Research.

Eichmann

Yes, now it is dawning on me. What can his name have been?

Questioner

Here only SS Hstf. (Hauptsturmführer) Dr. B. Beger is mentioned.

Eichmann

That was not the one.

Questioner

Then Professor Aug. (August) Hirth, of the University of Strasbourg.

Eichmann

No. What I was told there was new to me, and that is why I still remember it. The fellow told me that the Reichsführer-SS had ordered that ten or twelve skulls were to be answered beantworten to the University of Strasbourg for research purposes.

[recording unclear]

And this fellow told me he had now come to me because he had said to himself that he wanted Jewish skulls; he had a particular idea of what he wanted and drew up a detailed list for me here. And I told him I had none at all; he could not have them from me, because I do not collect skulls. He would have to apply to the Economic and Administrative Main Office (V&W HA); perhaps he could get some from the concentration camp, because if the Reichsführer-SS had ordered it, he would get them. And on this occasion—and that is why I can still recall it—the fellow told me these were very important scientific matters in that field. For instance, among other things, experiments on hypothermia had been carried out with prisoners who had volunteered.

Because if our airmen were shot down over the Channel and fell into the water, they would die of hypothermia. And he mentioned, I believe, a temperature of 29 degrees, and once that is reached, it is all over. But if they could still be properly rescued, then they would not die of hypothermia, because the men would not drown, since they would be held up by the flotation-belt apparatus. And they had established that the center of this whole thing lay here in the nape of the neck, and so they had done the following: the Russian had survived his cold nights, the coldest nights at 40 degrees below zero, simply by lying down next to one another and

Open page image and German
Page 694 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 694 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

1942 ist als GRS an das Amt IVB4 eine Bitte herangetragen worden um mitzuhelfen am Aufbau einer Sammlung von Skeletten. Juni 1942 [unleserlich] eine Sammlung von Skeletten erinnere ich mich natürlich nicht, Es kam zu mir in irgendeinem Jahr, ein Professor, ein Mediziner, der Universität Straßburg, – oder kam ein anderer Prof von irgendeinem Institut für… und hat mir gesagt er brauche für die Universität Straßburg – ich will jet… nur einmal feststellen, wer war bei mir – wenn Sie mir sagen er hieß Hirth, dann war der nicht bei mir gewesen oder er ist zumindest als Zweit-Person bei mir in Erscheinung getreten, den ich nicht weiter beachtete, beachtet habe ich den Sprecher, daß war ein Mann gewesen Ein SS Hstf Dr. Bruno Beger – Der war ein Oberstbaf. gewesen, der zu mir kam, – ob der nicht vom … Ja, vom … … Institut für wehrwissantschaftliche Zweckforschung… Ja, jetzt dämmert es mir, wie mag er nur geheißen haben – ? Hier wird nur erwähnt der SS Hstf. Dr.B. Beger, – Der war es nicht Dann der Prof. Aug Hirth, von der Univ. Straßburg. Nein – was mir da erzählt wurde, war neu für mich – und deshalb weiß ich es auch noch. – Da sagte mir der Onkel doch, der RF habe angeordnet, daß der Univ. Straßburg, 10 od 12 Totenschädel (?) zu Forschungszwecken, zu beantworten seien. (Band unklar aufgenommen) und dieser Onkel sagte mir, er sei nun zu mir gekommen, weil er sich gesagt habe, er möchte Judenschädel haben und zwar habe er eine bestimmte Vorstellung und hat mir hier eine spezialisierte Aufstellung gemacht. – Und da habe ich ihm gesagt, ich habe ja gar keine, die könne er nicht von mir haben, denn ich sammele doch keine Totenschädel, da müsse er sich an das V&W HA wenden, vielleicht könne er aus dem KL welche bekommen, denn wenn es der RF befohlen habe, wird er sie auch bekommen. Und bei dieser Gelegenheit, und deswegen ich mich auch noch entsinnen kann, – da sagte mir der Onkel, daß seien sehr wichtige wissentschaftliche Sachen auf dem Gebiet zB u.a. hätte man Versuche gemacht, mit Häftlingen, die sich freiwillig gemeldet hätten, mit Unterkühlung – denn wenn unsere Flieger über den Kanal abgeschossen würden und würden ins Wasser fühlen, dann würden sie an Unterkühlung zu grunde gehen. Und er nannte mir glaube ich noch eine Temperatur von 29 Grad und wenn die erreicht ist, dann ist der Bart ab. Aber wenn sie noch richtig gerettet werden könnten, dann gingen sie nicht an Unterkühlung zu grunde, denn die Leute würden nicht ersaufen, da sie ja durch die Schwimmgürtelapparate gehalten werden würden – und sie hätten festgestellt, daß das Zentrum dieser ganzen Sache hier im Genick liegen wärde und daher hätten sie folgendes gemacht, der Russe hätte in seinen kalten Nächten, die kältesten Nächte mit 40 Grad unter Null einfach dadurch überstanden, indem sie sich nebeneinander und

Draft translation

Band 66 [HW: 694] In 1942, a request was brought to the office IVB4 as GRS to help in the building of a collection of skeletons. June 1942 Ka a collection of skeletons I naturally do not remember. There came to me, in some year, a professor, a medical man, of the University of Strasbourg, - -- or did another Prof come from some institute for.. and he told me he needed for the University of Strasbourg ---- I want to just first establish who was with me------ if you tell me his name was Hirth, then he had not been with me, or he at least appeared to me as a second person whom I did not further attend to; whom I did attend to was the speaker, that had been a man. An SS Hstf Dr. Bruno Beger--- He had been an Oberstbaf. who came to me,--whether he was not from the .... Yes, from the .. ...... Institute for Military-Scientific Applied Research..... Yes, now it is dawning on me, what might he only have been called------? Here only the SS Hstf. Dr. B. Beger is mentioned,--He was not the one. Then the Prof. Aug Hirth, from the Univ. of Strasbourg. No------what was told to me there was new for me-- and that is why I still know it too.-- For the uncle told me, then, that the RF had ordered that to the Univ. of Strasbourg, 10 or 12 skulls (?) for research purposes, were to be answered. (Band recorded unclearly) and this uncle told me, he had now come to me, because he had said to himself, he would like to have Jewish skulls and namely he had a certain conception and made me here a specialized listing. ---And so I told him, I have none at all, he could not have them from me, for I do not collect skulls, for that he must turn to the V&W HA, perhaps he could get some from the KL, for if the RF had ordered it, he will also get them. And on this occasion, and for this reason I can also still recall it,-- there the uncle told me, these are very important scientific matters in the field e.g. among other things one had made experiments, with prisoners, who had volunteered, with hypothermia--- for if our airmen were shot down over the Channel and again fell into the water, then they would perish from hypothermia. And he named me, I believe, also a temperature of 29 degrees and when that is reached, then it's all over. But if they could still be properly rescued, then they would not perish from hypothermia, for the people would not drown, since they would be held up by the swimming-belt apparatuses---and they had established that the center of this whole matter would lie here in the nape of the neck and therefore they had done the following, the Russian had, in his cold nights, survived the coldest nights at 40 degrees below zero simply by, in that they, next to one another and

also partly on top of one another. And they had a powder in their pockets, into which they only needed to put a few drops. Then they close the bag again, and this process produces a very decent temperature in the pockets—I no longer know how many degrees. They would put their hands in and so have a decent feeling of warmth throughout the body. And by lying close together they get through the coldest nights by warming one another. And they had now given the German airman a pack for the nape of the neck which, if he fell into the water, moistened itself automatically and keeps the nerve center here in the nape at a temperature of so many degrees.

And in that way hypothermia is prevented. And I was pleased at this account, and amazed at all the things people do and how thoroughly they go into matters. And I also told him, now go to Brigadeführer Glücks. He is the fellow responsible for that; he is the inspector for the concentration-camp system. I cannot give you anything. If the Reichsführer-SS has instructed you to fetch ten skulls, you must fetch them from there; we in the Reich Security Main Office do not have any. That is all I know about the matter.

Questioner

Now the following.

Questioner reads from a letter about the skeleton collection

In carrying out the above special assignment—

Questioner

[Typed topic cue: skeleton collection]

Questioner reads from a letter about the skeleton collection

the appointed staff member of this office, SS Hstf. (Hauptsturmführer) Dr. Bruno Beger, ended work on 15 June 1943 in the Auschwitz concentration camp because of the existing epidemic danger. In total, 115 persons were processed, of them 79 Jews, 2 Poles, 4 Inner Asians, and 30 Jewish women. These prisoners are housed partly separately, by men and women, each in an infirmary of MKL Auschwitz. And they are in quarantine.

Questioner

MKL —what does that mean?

Eichmann

I do not know.

Questioner reads from a letter about the skeleton collection

For the further processing of the selected persons, an immediate transfer to the Natzweiler concentration camp is now required. In view of the epidemic danger in Auschwitz, this would have to be carried out with all speed. A list of the selected persons by name is attached. It is requested that the corresponding instructions be issued.

Questioner

This letter is addressed to you—for the attention of Office IV B 4?

Questioner reads from a letter about the skeleton collection

It is further requested that epidemic-free prisoner clothing for 90 men and 30 women be sent from Auschwitz to Natzweiler. At the same time, provision would have to be made at short notice for accommodation in Natzweiler for the 30 women.

Eichmann

Good, I apparently sent off a letter before that, but I handed the matter over to the Economic and Administrative Main Office, since I was not responsible for it.

Questioner

Yes, but if you have already been in written correspondence with these people for a year, then it is impossible to assume that in that time you had no possibility

Open page image and German
Page 695 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 695 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Auch etwas aufeinander gelegt hätten und die hätten in ihren Taschen ein Pulver, wo sie nur ein paar Tropfen hinein zu geben brauchten, und dann machen sie die Tüte wieder zu und durch diesen Prozeß wird in den Taschen eine sehr ordentliche Temperatur, ich weiß nicht mehr von wieviel Grad erzeugt, sie würden ihre Hände hineinstecken, und dadurch durch den ganzen Körper ein anständiges Wärmegefühl haben. Und durch das dichte Bei-einanderliegen durchstehen sie durch gegenseitiges Wärmen die kältesten Nächte. und man hätte nun den deutschen Flieger eine Packung gegeben, fürs Genick, die wenn sie ins Wasser falle… sich automatisch anfeuchtete und das Nervenzentrum nun hier im Genick auf einer Temperatur von soundsoviel Grad hält. Und dadurch wird also einer Unterkühlung vorgebeugt. Und ich habe mich bei dieser Erzählung gefreut, und gewundert, was man doch nicht alles macht und wie gründlich man doch den Sachen nachgeht. – Und ich sagte ihm noch, nun gehen sie zum BrigadeF. Glücks, das ist der zuständig… Onkel dafür, der ist der Inspekteur für das KL Wesen, ich kann nichts geben, wenn der RF Ihnen die Weisung erteilt hat, sich 10 Totenschädel zu holen, müssen sie sich solche von dort holen, wir RSHA verfügen nicht über solche. – Das ist alles was mir über die Sache bekannt ist… Nun folgendes – In der Ausführung des obigen Sonderauftrags, (Skelettsammlung) beauftragte Mitarbeiter der hiesigen Dienststelle, SS Hstf. Dr. Bruno Beger, Arbeiten am 15. Juni 1943 im KL Auschwitz wegen der bestehenden Seuchegefahr, beendet hat. – Insgesamt wurden 115 Personen, davon 79 Juden, 2 Polen, 4 Innerasiaten, und 30 Jüdinnen bearbeitet. Diese Häftlinge sind zT getrennt, nach Männer und Frauen, in je einen Krankenbau, des MKL Auschwitz untergebracht. Und befinden sich in Quarantäne. MKL, was heißt das? Weiß ich nicht. – Zur weiteren Bearbeitung der ausgesuchten Personen ist nun mehr mit einer sofortig Überweisung an das KL Natzweiler erforderlich, was mit Rücksicht auf die Seuchengefahr in Auschwitz schleunigst durchgeführt werden müßte. Ein namentlichen Verzeichnis der ausgesuchten Personen ist beigefügt. Es wird gebeten, die entsprechenden Anweisungen zu erteilen Dieses Schreiben ist an Sie gerichtet – z. H. Amt IVB 4 ?? Es wird weiter gebeten, daß seuchenfreie Sträflingskleider für 90 Männer und 30 Frauen von Auschwitz nach Natzweiler gesandt wird. Gleichzeitig müßte dafür Sorge getragen werden, für die 30 Frauen kurzfristig in Natzweiler Unterbringungsmöglichkeiten zu schaffen. Seite 378 Gut, ich habe scheinbar schon vorher ein Schreiben abgeschickt – habe aber die Sach… da ich ja nicht für zuständig war, an das V&W HA abgetreten. Ja, aber wenn Sie schon seit einem Jahr mit den Leuten im Schriftverkehr stehen, dann ist es doch unmöglich anzunehmen, daß Sie in der Zeit keine Möglichkeit

Draft translation

2 Volume 66 [HW: 695] Had also laid somewhat one on top of the other and they had in their pockets a powder, into which they only needed to put a few drops, and then they close the little bag again and through this process a very decent temperature is generated in the pockets, I no longer know of how many degrees, they would stick their hands in there, and thereby have through the whole body a proper feeling of warmth. And through lying close together they endure through mutual warming the coldest nights. And one had now given the German airman a pack, for the nape of the neck, which when it falls into the water automatically moistened itself and keeps the nerve center now here in the nape of the neck at a temperature of such-and-such many degrees. And thereby then a hypothermia is prevented. And I was glad at this account, and amazed, what one does after all and how thoroughly one after all pursues the matters.-- And I said to him further, now go to Brigade-Ldr. Glücks, that is the responsible uncle for that, he is the inspector for the concentration-camp matter, I cannot give anything, if the RF has issued you the directive to fetch yourself 10 death's-heads, you must fetch such from there, we RSHA do not have such at our disposal.----- That is all that is known to me about the matter..... Now the following---In the execution of the above special assignment, (skeleton collection) the appointed collaborator of the local office, SS Hstf. Dr. Bruno Beger, has ended [beebdet] the works on 15 June 1943 in the KL Auschwitz because of the existing epidemic danger. -- In total XX 115 persons were processed [bearbeitet], of these 79 Jews, 2 Poles, 4 Inner-Asiatics, and 30 Jewesses. These prisoners are in part separated, by men and women, each housed in a hospital-building [Krankenbau] of the MKL Auschwitz. And find themselves in quarantine. MKL, what does that mean? I don't know.-- For the further processing [Bearbeitung] of the selected persons there is now [n n] more required with an immediate transfer to the KL Natzweiler, which, with regard to the epidemic danger in Auschwitz, would have to be carried out with all speed. A nominal list [namentliches Verzeichnis] of the selected persons is appended. It is requested that the corresponding instructions be issued. This letter is addressed to you----- attn. Office IVB 4 ?? It is requested further, that epidemic-free convict clothing for 90 men and 30 women be sent from Auschwitz to Natzweiler. At the same time care would have to be taken to create at short notice accommodation [Unterbaingungs-] possibilities in Natzweiler for the 30 women. Page 378 Good, I have apparently already sent off a letter beforehand--- but handed over the matter, since I was after all not responsible, to the V&W HA [WVHA]. Yes, but if you have already for a year stood in written correspondence with the people, then it is after all impossible to assume that you in that time no possibility [incomplete]

Questioner

of making it clear to them that everything to do with making skeletons available, transferring concentration-camp prisoners from one camp to another, and so on and so on—that none of it was your responsibility?

Against that I can say: I do not know what my letter—my section’s letter of 25 September 42, IV B 4, 3576/72 G 1488—what that letter contained. As to the meetings that have been cited, that is what I know about the skulls. I know nothing about skeletons. That does not mean I would have to issue any instruction for these people to be transferred to Natzweiler, because I am not responsible for it at all. And that is why I am also telling you: I will have passed this letter on to the Economic and Administrative Main Office with a request for further action.

Questioner

But the fact is that they kept coming back to you after a year, even though these responsibilities were not yours at all.

Eichmann

But Siebers, if it was that man who came to me, did talk about the characteristics of the people he had in mind—

[speech unclear and disconnected on the recording]

Questioner

But the fact remains that even after a year the people came back to you again?

Eichmann

Well, that was a mistake. The people from the Ancestral Heritage office (Ahnerbe) did not know their way around the responsibilities. Why did he come to me first about skulls? I sent him away. The same goes for skeletons, for sending prisoners, and so on.

Questioner

But within a year this fellow ought to have noticed that you were not responsible for it, and nevertheless he comes back.

Eichmann

But these people were scientists who lived in cloud-cuckoo-land, not in the present. You can attribute anything to these people and think them capable of anything. They were not people who were not involved in any practical day-to-day work, who lived and thought only in their scientific matters. They were not human beings at all; they consisted only of intellect. You can well assume that they really did not think very clearly about the responsibilities. And they had already spoken to me once. Certainly Siebers, who met resistance everywhere with his odd business, found a willing ear with me.

And he will have said to himself: I have now found a man in this main office who takes an interest in our interesting and difficult work, who is not skeptical about the matter, someone you can talk to. Perhaps out of those considerations. In any case, we were not responsible for anything of the kind. Because when such people come with the Reichsführer-SS’s approval, then there is nothing left to approve. They have to go to the office that alone carries the matter out, and that is the Economic and Administrative Main Office.

Open page image and German
Page 696 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 696 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

hatten, denen klar zu machen, daß alles was mit Verfügungstellung von Skeletten Überweisung von KZ Häftlingen von einem Lager ins andere, usw usw, daß das all… nicht Ihre Zuständigkeit ist? Dem kann ich entgegen halten, ich weiß nicht, was mein Schreiben, meines Referat vom 25 Sept. 42, IV B 4,3576/72 G 1488, was dieses Schreiben an Inhalt hatte? Bzgl. die angeführten Besprechungen ist das was ich von den Schädeln weiß, von Skeletten ist mir nichts bekannt. Das besagt nicht, daß ich irgendeine Anweisung zu erteilen hätte, daß diese Leute nach Natzweiler zu überstellen sind, weil ich ja gar nicht dafür zuständ… bin und deswegen sage ich Ihnen ja auch, ich werde dieses Schreiben an das V&W HA weitergeleitet haben, mit der Bitte um weitere Veranlassung. – Tatsache ist aber, daß diese immer wieder nach einem Jahr sich an Sie wanden, obwohl Ihnen diese Zuständigkeiten doch gar nicht oblagen Aber Siebers, wenn es dieser Mann war, der zu kam mir kam, hat sich ja über die Charakteristiken unterhalten, der Leute die ihm vorschwebten, (unklar und unzusammenhängend gesprochen.) Tatsache aber ist, daß doch die Leute noch nach einem Jahr wieder sich an Sie wanden??? Nun das ist ein Fehler gewesen, da kannten sich die Leute vom Ahnerbe-Amt nicht aus. für die Zuständigkeiten … weshalb kam er denn zuerst zu mir wegen Totenschä… ich habe ihn doch weggeschickt – dasselbe gilt für Skelette, für Verschickung der Häftlinge etc… Aber innerhalb eines Jahres dürfte dieser Onkel doch gemerkt haben, daß Sie dafür nicht zuständig waren und trotzdem kommt er wieder Aber diese Leute sind Wissentschaftlicher gewesen die in der Wolfkuckuckgegend lebten, aber nicht in der Gegenwart – diesen Leute können Sie alles unterstellen und alles zutrauen, das sind doch keine Leute gewesen, die in keiner praktischen Tagesarbeit drin standen, die nur in ihren wissentschaftlichen Dingen lebten und dachten, das waren doch keine Menschen gewesen, – die bestanden doch nur aus Geist. – Da kann man schon annehmen, daß sie wirklich über die Zuständigkeiten nicht ganz klar nachdachten und nun hatten sie schon einmal mit mir gesprochen, sicherl. hat der Siebers, der überall aneckte mit seiner komischen Sache, bei mir ein williges Ohr gefunden – und er wird sich gesagt haben, ich habe nun in diesem HA einen Mann gefunden, der sich für unsere interessante und schwere Arbeit interessiert, der dieser Sache nicht skeptisch gegenüber steht, mit dem man spreche… kann – vielleicht aus diesen Überlegungen heraus, – Jedenfalls wir waren nicht zuständig, für nichts diesbzgl. – denn wenn solche Leute kommen, mit der Genehmigung des RF, dann gibt es gar nichts mehr zu genehmigen, dann müssen sie zu der Stelle gehen, die alleine diese Sache durchführt und das ist das V&WHA.

Draft translation

3 Volume 66 [HW: 646] had, to make clear to them, that everything having to do with provision of skeletons, transfer of concentration camp prisoners from one camp to another, etc etc, that that is all not your competence? To that I can counter, I do not know, what my letter, of my Section of 25 Sept. 42,, IV B 4,3576/72 G 1488, what content this letter had? Regarding the cited discussions, that is what I know of the skulls, of skeletons nothing is known to me. That does not mean, that I would have to issue any instruction, that these people are to be transferred to Natzweiler, because I am indeed not at all competent for that and that is why I am telling you too, I will have forwarded this letter on to the V&W HA [Main Office], with the request for further arrangement.--- But the fact is, that these again and again after a year turned to you, although these competencies were indeed not incumbent upon you at all But Siebers, if it was this man, who came to m[e] me, did indeed talk about the characteristics of the people that he had in mind, (spoken unclearl[y] and incoherently.) But the fact is, that the people yet again after a year turned to you??? Well that was a mistake, s[i]nce the people from the Ahnenerbe Office did not know their way around...for the competencies...why then did he come first to me regarding death sku[lls] I did indeed send him away--- the same applies for skeletons, for shipping of the prisoners etc...... But within a year this uncle must surely have noticed, that you were not competent for that and nevertheless he comes again But these people were scientists who lived in cloud-cuckoo-land [Wolkenkuckucksheim], but not in the present--to these people you can attribute anything and credit them with anything, these were indeed not people, who stood in any practical day-to-day work, who lived only in their scientific things and thought, these were indeed not human beings,-they consisted indeed only of intellect.- There one can indeed assume, that they really did not think entirely clearly about the competencies and now they had already once spoken with me, certainl[y] Siebers, who ran up against everyone [gave offense everywhere] with his odd matter, found a willing ear with me-- and he will have said to himself, I have now in this HA [Main Office] found a man, who is interested in our interesting and difficult work, who does not stand skeptical toward this matter, with whom one can spea[k] can----perhaps out of these considerations, -- In any case we were not competent, for nothing in this regard. --for when such people come, with the approval of the RF [Reichsführer], then there is nothing at all left to approve, then they must go to the office, that alone carries out this matter and that is the V&W HA.

Questioner

Then another matter is listed there, about skulls of Jewish-Bolshevik commissars.

That is no concern of mine.

Questioner

And the term MKL —is that perhaps mass concentration camp or model concentration camp?

Eichmann

I do not know; I have never heard of it.

Questioner

But these documents from Professor Hirth to the Reichsführer-SS are not so scientifically up in the clouds. He says here:

Questioner reads from Hirt's proposal to Himmler

that the practical execution of the smooth procurement to secure this skull material is most expediently achieved through an instruction to the armed forces (Wehrmacht) to hand over all Jewish-Bolshevik commissars in future, alive and immediately, to the field police. The field police receives a special instruction to report the current number of these captured commissars to a particular office. After the Jew’s death has been brought about in this way—his head must not be damaged—he separates the head from the torso and sends it to its destination in a tightly closable sheet-metal container made for the purpose. For the preservation and study of the skull material obtained in this way, the University of Strasbourg, with its regulations and duties, would be the most suitable.

Unknown speaker

They are hard men… fellows.

[Conversation about the attitude and hardening needed for this work.]

Eichmann

I can remember two things that shook me. I was in Theresienstadt, and we had a crematorium there. It was under the Jews; it had been there before that too, because nothing was allowed to be buried in Theresienstadt, according to the health authority, because the bodies would have lasted a long time because the soil was acidic. So the bodies were burned. And there was a Jew there, a doctor, an important doctor, and I never visited Theresienstadt without looking up this Jewish doctor. And there was a woman doctor too, also an important woman. This doctor had made drawings with colored pencils—particular case histories, ulcers, and so on. She had drawn them so realistically; they were shown to me, and I felt like vomiting. Because I am terribly susceptible, and perhaps it was also because of those feelings that I did not look through that peephole. And this doctor had on the table—

[Typed cue: pathology]

and on this table lay an old fellow who had died. The room was all tiled so that everything could be hosed down, and an oilcloth lay over the poor fellow. He had already been cut up. And then the doctor took away the oilcloth—he wanted to establish the dead man’s cause of death—and I must say, I again got that same strange feeling in my stomach. And even so I was drawn to this doctor again and again. He explained everything so nicely. He had jars of spirits in which he kept various things that interested him. Well, I thought to myself, you could hardly feel comfortable here with all this… and next door the woman doctor with her colored, painted ulcers…

Open page image and German
Page 697 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 697 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Dann wird da noch eine Sache aufgeführt von Schädeln von jüd-bolschw. Kommissare Das geht mich nichts an… Und der Begriff MKL, ist das vielleicht Massen KL oder Muster KL? Weiß ich nicht, nie gehört – Aber hier die Dokumente des Prof Hirth an den RF, das ist gar nicht so wissentschaftlich in den Wolken, er sagt hier; Das die praktische Durchführung der reibungslosen Beschaffung zur Sicherstellung dieses Schädelmaterials am zweckmäßigsten geschieht in der Form einer Anweisung an die Wehrmacht, um sämtl. Jüd.-bolschw. Kommissare in Zukunft lebend sofort der Feldpolizei zu übergeben. Die Feldpol. erhält Sonderanweisung einer bestimmten Stelle den laufenden Bestand dieser gefangenen Kommissare zu melden. – Nachdem danach herbeigeführten Tode des Juden dessen Kopf nicht verletzt werden darf, trennt er den Kopf vom Rumpf und sendet ihn, in einem zu diesem Zwecke geschaffenen, gut verschließbaren Bechbehälter zum Bestimmungsort. Für die Aufbewahrung und die Erforschung des so gewonnenen Schädelmaterials wäre die Univ. Straßburg mit ihren Bestimmungen und Aufgaben die geeigneteste. Sind harte Menschen … Burschen – (Unterhaltung über die Einstellung und Abhärtung für diese Arbeiten) Ich kann mich an zwei Dinge erinnern, die mich erschütterten – ich war in Theresienstadt und da hatten wir ein Krematorium gehabt, es war den Juden unterstellt – es war auch schon vorher da, weil in Theresienstadt nichts begraben werden durfte, laut Gesundheitsbehörde, weil die Leichen sich lange erhalten hätten, weil der Boden sauer war, – die Leichen wurden also verbrannt, und da war ein Jude dort gewesen, ein Arzt, ein bedeutender Arzt und ich habe nie Theresienstadt besuch… ohne diesen jüd. Arzt aufzusuchen, und da war eine Ärztin, auch eine bedeutende Frau, und diese Ärztin hat nun Zeichnungen gemacht, mit Buntstiften, besondere Krankheitsgeschichten, Geschwüre usw…, die hat sie dermaßen realistisch gezeichnet, die wurden mir gezeigt, und ich bekam einen Brechreiz – denn ich bin furchtbar anfällig und vielleicht auch aus dieser Gefühlen heraus habe ich auch nicht durch dieses Guckloch gesehen… Und da hat dieser Arzt auf dem Tisch, (Phatalogie) – und auf diesem Tisch lag ein alter Junge, der verstorben war, der Raum war ganz aus Fliesen, so daß alles abgespritzt werden konnte mit Schläuchen, und über dem armen Kerl lag ein Wachstuch, er war bereits zerschnippelt – und da nahm der Arzt das Wachstuch weg, – er wollte sich die Todesursache bei dem Verstorbenen feststellen – und da muß ich sagen da bekam ich ebenfalls wieder so ein komisches Gefühl im Magen, – und trotzdem zog es mich immer wieder zu diesem Arzt – er hatte alles einem so nett erklärt – er hatte Gläser mit Spritus, in denen er sich verschied. Sachen, die ihn interessierten aufbewahrte, Na, dachte ich noch bei mir, hier könntest Du Dich doch wohl nicht recht wohlfühlen bei alldem… nebenan die Ärztin mit ihren bunten, gemalten Geschwüren…

Draft translation

Volume 66 697 Then there is another matter listed there about skulls of Jewish-Bolshevik commissars That is none of my business.... And the term MKL, is that perhaps Mass CC [concentration camp] or Model CC? I don't know, never heard [of it]---- But here the documents of Prof. Hirth to the RF [Reichsführer], that is not so scientific- ally up in the clouds, he says here: That the practical execution of the frictionless procurement for securing this skull material takes place most expediently in the form of an instruction to the Wehrmacht, to hand over all Jewish-Bolshevik commissars in future alive immediately to the Field Police. The Field Police receives a special instruction to report to a certain office the current stock of these captured commissars.---- After the death of the Jew thus brought about, whose head may not be injured, he separates the head from the trunk and sends it, in a tin container created for this purpose, well sealable, to the destination. For the storage and the research of the skull material thus obtained the University of Strasbourg with its provisions and tasks would be the most suitable. Are hard men...fellows---- (Conversation about the attitude and hardening for these works) I can remember two things that shook me---- I was in There- sienstadt and there we had had a crematorium, it was subordinated to the Jews- it was also already there before, because in Theresienstadt nothing was allowed to be buried, according to the health authority, because the corpses would have preserved themselves for a long time, because the soil was acidic,----the corpses were therefore burned, and there was a Jew there, a doctor, an important doctor and I never visit[ed] Theresienstadt without seeking out this Jewish doctor, and there was a woman doctor, also an important woman, and this woman doctor now made drawings, with colored pencils, particular case histories, ulcers etc......, she drew them so realistically, they were shown to me, and I got the urge to vomit----for I am terribly susceptible and perhaps also out of these feelings I also did not look through this peephole..... And there this doctor had on the table, (pathology)----- and on this table lay an old boy, who had died, the room was entirely of tiles, so that everything could be hosed down with hoses, and over the poor fellow lay a waxed cloth, he was already snipped up----and then the doctor took the waxed cloth away, - he wanted to determine the cause of death in the deceased---- and then I must say there I likewise again got such a strange feeling in the stomach,-- and nevertheless it drew me again and again to this doctor--- he had explained everything to one so nicely -- he had glasses with spirits [alcohol], in which he kept various things that interested him, Well, I still thought to myself, here you could not really feel quite comfortable amid all this..... next door the woman doctor with her colorful, painted ulcers.....

A second time I was on the way from the estate to Neuarad, or it was on the march back. My column stops for some reason. It was dark, and not far from my car I see something glowing—not a light, then. I go over and prod it with my boot, and then I see—I had to pull myself together hard; my men were behind me—that I have here before me a—nearly 70 or 80 per cent—Hungarian Ho… soldier, who was partly burned—scorched, that is—and partly a corpse. Well, that made a very strong impression on me, all the more in the middle of the night, when I do not like seeing corpses anyway.

Another time, on the way back from Budapest on Christmas Eve, in the middle of the night—it had been a very full moonlit night in 1944, the night of 24 to 25 December—everything was under snow when a vehicle stood crosswise in the middle of the road, shot to pieces by Russian artillery. But I did not know that. I came up and was just about to bawl the fellow out for blocking the road like that, and I open the door, and a Ho… soldier falls towards me, dead and heavy. That horrified me once again. And since I was alone—my driver was perhaps a hundred paces away—I took the fellow and stuffed him back onto his seat; he was already frozen stiff.

I slammed the door, and I may have said, “Kiss my arse” (LMA). With those words to give me courage, I went back to my driver and told him: there is a fellow stiff as a board sitting in there; we must drive across the field. And so I had repeated encounters with the dead, and I always had that strange feeling. And I still remember, when I saw them scorching at A. —God, my knees shook. And on that day, when I saw that—I still have a … saying from my youth, and I always do this when I cannot get away from my thoughts. To distract myself, I say the following:

[Typed as notes in the transcript: the Lord’s Prayer]

And even as a child I had discovered that when I had said it, I no longer thought about the other thing. And that is how it went with me in Auschwitz too, when Höss took me there and thought to himself: now I will show this desk-bound fool what it is like. Of course he meant it kindly. And there I told him that too, so that my knees would stop shaking. Otherwise I would have been ashamed.

Listen · Trembling at Auschwitz · 0:53

Questioner

With Obersturmbannführer Brandt…

Eichmann

Yes, Brandt was the man’s name, the one with whom I…

Questioner

He belonged to the Reichsführer-SS’s personal staff. Yes, he also speaks here about sterilizations of Jewish women, and so on…

Eichmann

Yes, he told me that too. Yes, Brandt was the man’s name, a doctor. I remember.

Questioner

Now the following—back again.

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

On 5 March 1942 a meeting took place in IV B 4, concerning the implementation of State Secretary Dr. Stuckart’s proposal to dissolve all mixed marriages.

Open page image and German
Page 698 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 698 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Ein zweites Mal bin ich auf dem Weg von dem Gut nach Neuarad, oder auf dem Rückmarsch war es – und meine Kolonne bleibt stehen aus irgendeinem Grunde, es war dunkel gewesen und da sehe ich unweit von meinem PKW etwas glosen(?) also kein Licht – ich gehe hin und stoße so mit meinem Stiefel, und da sehe ich doch, ich mußte mich sehr zusammen nehmen, meine Leute waren hinter mehr, daß ich hier ein nach zu 70 oder 80 % ung. Ho…Soldaten vor mir habe, der zum Teil verbrannt war also angeschmorrt war, und zum Teil Leiche war, nun das hat mich, noch dazu mitten in der Nacht, wo ich sowieso nicht gerne Leichen sehe, doch sehr beeindruckt. – Ein anderes Mal, auf dem Rückweg von Budapest am Heil Abend mitten in der Nacht, es war eine sehr volle Mondnacht gewesen 1944, vom 24 auf 25 Dez., es war alles verschneit als ein Wagen querr stand mitten auf der Straße, zerschossen durch russ Artillerie, aber das wußte ich nicht, ich kam hin und wollte gerade den Kerl anschnauzen, hier die Straße so querr zu versperren, und ich mache die Tür auf und da fällt mir ein Ho… Soldat tot und schwer entgegen, das hat mich auch wieder einmal entsetzt, – und da ich alleine war, mein Fahrer war vielleicht 100 Schritte weg, da habe ich den Kerl genommen und habe ihn wieder reinverstaucht, er war schon steif gefroren, auf seinen Sitz und habe die Tür zugeknallt und werde vielleicht gesagt haben LMA und habe mich mit diesen mir mutmachenden Worten mich zu meinem Fahrer begeben und ihm gesagt, da sitzt so ein stocksteifer Kerl drin, wir müssen übers Feld fahren… Und so hatte ich wiederholtest Begegnungen mit Toten und ich hatte immer so ein komisches Gefühl und ich weiß noch, als ich die in A. schmorren sah, da hatte ich, Gott – da zitterten mir die Kniee – und an diesem Tage, als ich das sah, ich habe noch aus meiner Judendzeit einen Spruch und das mache ich immer, wenn ich von meinen Gedanken nicht abkommen kann, und um mich abzulenken, sage ich folgendes; (Vaterunser) – und schon als Kind bin ich daraufgekommen, wenn ich das gesagt hatte, habe ich an das andere nicht mehr gedacht. – Und so ging es mir auch in Auschwitz als der Höß mich da hinführte und sich sich dachte, nun werde ich mal diesem Schreibtischheini zeigen, wie es ist… Natürlich war es freundlich von ihm gemeint – und da habe ich das denn auch gesagt, damit mein Kniezittern aufhörte, ich hätte mich sonst doch geschämt. – Mit dem Obstbaf. Brandt… Ja, Brandt hieß der Mann, mit dem ich … Der gehörte zum persönlichen Stab des RF – ja, der spricht hier auch über Sterilisierungen von Jüdinnen – usw… Ja, das hat er mir auch erzählt, ja Brandt hieß der Mann, ein Arzt, ich entsinne mich – Nun folgendes, wieder zurück – Am 5. März 1942 fand in IV B 4 eine Besprechung statt, und zwar handelt es sich um die Durchführung des Vorschlages vom Staatssekr. Dr. Stukarth alle Mischehen aufzulösen.

Draft translation

5 Volume 66 [HW: 698] A second time I am on the way from the estate to Neuarad, or it was on the return march-----and my column stops for some reason, it had been dark and there I see not far from my car something glowing(?) so no light-- I go over and bump so with my boot, and there I do see, I had to pull myself together very much, my people were behind me, that here I have a to 70 or 80% Hung. Ho......soldier before me, who was partly burnt so was scorched, and was partly corpse, now that impressed me, all the more in the middle of the night, where I anyway do not like to see corpses, indeed very much.----- Another time, on the way back from Budapest on Christmas Eve in the middle of the night, it had been a very full moonlit night 1944, from the 24th to the 25th Dec., everything was snowed over when a [TS INS: a] [DEL: car]vehicle [DEL: with] stood crosswise in the middle of the street, shot to pieces by Russian artillery, but that I did not know, I came over and just wanted to bawl out the fellow, for blocking the street crosswise like this, and I open the door and there falls toward me a Hung...... soldier, dead and heavy, that horrified me again once more, ---and since I was alone, my driver was maybe 100 paces away, so I took the fellow and stuffed him back in again, he was already frozen stiff, onto his seat and slammed the door shut and will maybe have said LMA and betook myself with these words giving me courage to my driver and said to him, there sits such a stock-stiff fellow inside, we must drive over the field.... And so I had repeated encounters with the dead and I always had such a queer feeling and I still know, when I saw them scorching in A., there I had, God--- there my knees trembled-- and on this day, when I saw that, I still have from my youth-time a saying and I do that always, when I cannot get away from my thoughts, and in order to distract myself, I say the following; (Our Father)----and already as a child I hit upon it, when I had said that, I no longer thought of the other thing.------ And so it also went for me in Auschwitz when Hoess led me there and I thought to myself, now I will just show this desk-clerk fellow how it is........ Of course it was meant kindly by him-------- and so I then said that too, so that my knee-trembling would stop, otherwise I would have been ashamed after all.----- ---------- With the Obstbaf. Brandt..... Yes, Brandt was the man's name, with whom I ..... He belonged to the personal staff of the RF---yes, he also speaks here about sterilizations of Jewesses------etc... Yes, he told me that too, yes Brandt was the man's name, a doctor, I recall------ Now the following, back again---- On the 5th March 1942 a meeting took place in IV B 4, and namely it concerns the carrying out of the proposal of State Secr. Dr. Stukarth to dissolve all mixed marriages.

Yes, I can remember, but I cannot say anything about it.

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

Legal onset (Ansprung) of forced divorces in all cases. On this…

[further reading indistinct on the recording]

2. There was agreement that in an individual divorce care must be taken to ensure that the proceedings move quickly, and that unjust objections from the Jewish side must be blocked. It is laid down by law that the courts, on the application of the German-blooded party or the public prosecutor, must dissolve racially mixed marriages. Provision is to be made for an application in order to soften the outward impression of a forced divorce. The divorce decree then depends only on the finding that one spouse is fully Jewish or of mixed descent in the first degree (Mischling ersten Grades). The Chief of the Security Police and the Security Service makes this finding—whether one spouse is fully Jewish or of mixed descent in the first degree—and the public prosecutors’ offices are bound by it.

Eichmann

In practice it will never have gone that far. I do not think so. Because I could imagine that the Interior Ministry, represented by State Secretary Stuckart, will have raised objections here. It will have been a draft, because with that we would have thrown the registry offices’ whole system of personal-status law into disarray. I do not think the registrar would have put up with that. This sharpness of wording could come from Senior Government Councillor Reischauer, from the Party Chancellery of the Führer. I would think him capable of it; I know him. But that was by no means his personal view—I do not mean to say that. It was his official assignment.

[unintelligible on the recording]

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

is to be applied to marriages of Germans with full Jews (Volljuden) in every case, without exception.

Eichmann

Yes, one moment. It was Reischauer, and it was the Party Chancellery that was forever pursuing the mixed-descent problem (Mischlingsproblem). And I must tell you that I was, in fact, a little too superficial, and never really knew the Nuremberg legislation by heart, particularly as regards privileged and non-privileged mixed marriages and mixed-descent situations. I always admired my case officer for the way he could grasp the matter off the cuff. I could not do it; I always had to look it up again.

I never kept all that mixed-descent business in my head. I marveled at how Reischauer had it all off pat, and I was amazed at the impatience with which the Party Chancellery pursued these mixed-descent situations. I always took the position—and I believed the Reichsführer-SS’s position was the same—that with every generation this problem gets better, because the legislation means there can be no more mixing with Jewish blood. It can only improve. And so I was always opposed to tackling the whole mixed-descent problem.

Open page image and German
Page 699 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 699 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Ja, ich kann mich erinnern, aber ich kann nichts darüber sagen… Gesetzlicher Ansprung der Zwangsscheidungen in allen Fällen. Hierzu… (weiteres Vorlesen undeutlich…) 2. Herrschte Einigkeit darüber daß bei einer Scheidung im Einzelfall dafür Sorg… getragen werden müsse, daß die Verfahren schnell vor sich gehen. Und daß ungerechten Einwänden der jüd. Seite ein Riegel vorgeschoben werden müsse. – Es wird gesetzlich festgelegt, daß die Gerichte auf Antrag des deutsch-blütigen Teiles oder des Staatsanwaltes rassenmäßige Mischehen zu scheiden haben. Der Antrag soll vorgesehen werden, um nach außenhin den Eindruck einer Zwangsscheidung abzuschwächen. – Der Scheidungsausspruch hängt dann nur von der Feststellung ab, daß ein Eheteil Volljüdisch bzw. Mischling ersten Grades ist. Diese Feststellung ob ein Eheteil volljüdisch bzw. Mischling ersten Grades ist, trifft der Chef der Sipo und SD. – und die Staatsanwaltschaften sind an diese Feststellung gebunden – Das wird in der Praxis nie so weit gekommen sein. Glaube ich nicht. – Weil ich mir vorstellen könnte, daß hier das IM vertreten durch Staatssekr. Stukarth hier Bedenken geltend gemacht haben wird. Es wird ein Entwurf gewesen sein – denn damit hätten wir ja die gesamten personenrechtlichen Verhältnisse der Standesämter über den Haufen geworfen. – Ich glaube, daß hätte der Standesbeamte sich nicht gefallen gelassen… Diese Schärfe der Formulierung könnte vom Oberreg. Rat Reischauer kommen, von der Parteikanzlei des Führers… das traue ich ihm zu, ich kenne ihn… aber das ist nun keinesfalls die persönliche Auffassung von ih… gewesen, daß möchte ich damit nicht sagen, sondern das ist sein Dienstauftrag gewesen. – (Unverstärdlich…) soll angewandt werden bei Ehen von Deutsch mit Volljuden in jedem Fall ohne Ausnahme – Ja, Moment – es war Reischauer – und die Parteikanzlei ist es gewesen, die ewig und immer hinter dem Mischlingsproblem her war – und ich muß Ihnen sagen, d… ich an sich ein wenig zu oberflächlich gewesen bin, und nie die Nürnbergergese…gebung, gerade was previligierte und nicht previligierte Mischehen angehen und was Mischlingsverhältnisse sind, nie so richtig auswendig gewußt habe, ich habe immer meinen Sachbearbeiter bewundert, wie er immer so aus dem Lamän heraus die Sache erkennen konnte – ich konnte es nicht – ich mußte immer wieder nachles… ich habe mir diesen ganzen Mischlingskram nie gemerkt. Ich habe gestaunt, wie Reischauer diese Sache aus FF konnte und ich habe mich gewundert, gerade mit welcher Ungeduld die Parteikanzlei hinter diesen Mischlingsverhältnisse her war Wo ich immer auf dem Standpunkt stande und ich glaubte der Standpunkt des RF wär… ebenso gewesen, daß mit jeder Generation dieses Problem besser wird, weil es ein Vermischung mit jüd. Blut nicht mehr geben kann, durch die Gesetzgebung, es kan… sich also nur bessern – und daher war ich immer ein Gegner mit dem Anpacken des gesamten Mischlingsproblems.

Draft translation

6 Volume 66 [HW: 699] Yes, I can remember, but I cannot say anything about it.... Legal basis/onset of the compulsory divorces in all cases. On this.. (further reading indistinct..........) 2. There was agreement that in the case of a divorce in the individual case, care must be taken that the proceedings go quickly. And that a bolt must be shot [i.e. a stop must be put] to un- fair objections from the Jewish side.- It is legally established that the courts, upon application of the German-blooded party or of the public prosecutor, are to divorce racial mixed marriages. The application is to be provided for, in order to soften outwardly the impression of a compulsory divorce [Zwangsscheidung].- The pronouncement of divorce then depends only on the determination that one marriage-partner is full-Jewish or a Mischling [mixed-breed] of the first degree. This determination, whether a marriage-partner is full-Jewish or a Mischling of the first degree, is made by the Chief of the Sipo and SD.- and the public prosecutor's offices are bound to this determination---- In practice this will never have gone so far. I don't think so.-- Because I could imagine that here the IM [Interior Ministry], represented by State Secretary Stukart [Stuckart], will have raised objections here. It will have been a draft--- for with that we would have thrown the entire personal-status-law situation of the registry offices [Standesämter] into disarray.--I believe the registry official [Standesbeamte] would not have put up with that..... This sharpness of the formulation could come from Senior Government Councillor [DEL: [?Rummer?]] Reischauer, from the [TS INS: Party]Chancellery of the Führer.... that I would credit him with, I know him..... but that was in no case the personal view of hi[m], that I do not want to say by that, but rather that was his official assignment [Dienstauftrag] [that it] was.--- (Unintelligible...... ) is to be applied in the case of [DEL: [?German?]] marriages of German with full-Jews in every case without exception-- Yes, one moment---- it was Reischauer ---and it was the Party Chancellery that was forever and always after the Mischling problem--and I must tell you, tha[t] I have on the whole been a little too superficial, and never [knew] the Nuremberg legis- lation, precisely as regards what privileged and non-privileged [TS INS: mixed marriages] [DEL: marriages] concern and what Mischling relations are, never really knew by heart, I have always admired my case-worker [Sachbearbeiter], how he could always recognize the matter so off the cuff [?Lamäng?]--I could not do it-- I always had to look it up again[,] I never memorized this whole Mischling stuff. I marveled at how Reischauer could [do] this thing from the FF [off the top of his head] and I wondered, precisely at what impatience the Party Chancellery was after these Mischling relations[.] Where[as] I always stood on the standpoint and I believed the standpoint of the RF wa[s] likewise been [i.e. was the same], that with every generation this problem gets better, because there can be no more intermixing with Jewish blood, through the legislation, it can therefore only get better--- and therefore I was always an opponent of the tackling of the entire Mischling problem.

Because it will change automatically in favor of German blood. And that is why I was not at all interested in setting out the matter in detail, and why I did not memorize it either. And I remember Reischauer always harping on that dreadful point with me—because I had not mastered the subject. That is why it was a nuisance when Reischauer kept needling me. I could not expose my ignorance, so I had to look it up. That is why I told you right away: this comes from Reischauer.

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

The law is to be applied to marriages between Germans and full Jews (Volljuden) in every case. 2. To marriages between people of mixed descent in the first degree (Mischlinge ersten Grades) and persons of German blood, when the marriage is childless and the partner of mixed descent does not receive an exemption allowing him to remain in the Reich unmolested. The principles of the working group are to apply here.

Eichmann

This working group here, which came together, made up of all the authorities, assembled at my office to discuss the matter.

Questioner

Could that not perhaps refer to the work that this partner of mixed descent happens to have to do?

Eichmann

No, it is this working group, as I just said. And this draft you are reading out here is not even from me, because the Party Chancellery might be more likely to write “working group”, but not a state authority; the word is foreign to its vocabulary. It is the way it often happened. Reischauer took the initiative here. Since he, as the Party Chancellery, could not reach the people in the authority—he would have met opposition there—he simply shifted the matter to me, because he and I got on excellently. He set the matter going here, and I sent out the invitations. Reischauer led the matter from its inception and in the negotiations, and he also dictated the corresponding memorandum, which he described as a preliminary result of this working group.

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

5. If the legal regulation and the racial descent of this Jewish partner or partner of mixed descent do not agree, the law is not to be applied in the following cases, even if the partner counts legally as a Jew: a) when the person legally counted as a Jew (Geltungsjude) has fewer than two racially full-Jewish grandparents; b) when the person legally counted as a Jew has two racially full-Jewish grandparents and the mixed marriage has produced descendants who count as German-blooded or as people of mixed descent in the second degree (Mischlinge zweiten Grades).

Questioner

A person legally counted as a Jew (Geltungsjude)?

Eichmann

He counts as a Jew, but then he no longer counts as a Jew when—and now come the exceptions…

Open page image and German
Page 700 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 700 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Weil es sich ja automatisch zu Gunsten des deutschen Blutes ändern wird. Und deswegen hat es mich gar nicht interessiert, die Sache im einzelnen aufzuführen und deswegen habe ich sie mir auch nicht gemerkt. Und ich entsinne mich, daß Reischauer mir immer wieder in diese schreckliche Kerbe, weil ich ja den Komplex nicht beherrschte, deswegen war es mir lästig, wenn Reischauer immer wieder anstach – ich konnte mir ja keine Blöße geben, es nicht zu wissen – ich mußte also nachsehen – deswegen sagte ich Ihnen gleich, das kommt von Reischauer. – Argewandt soll das Gesetz werden bei Ehen zwischen Deutschen und Volljuden auf jeden Fall. 2. Bei Ehen zwischen Mischlinge ersten Grades und Deutschblütigen, dann wenn die Ehe kinderlos ist und der Mischlingsteil nicht eine Ausnahme erfährt, auf Grund derer er unbehelligt im Reich verbleiben darf. – Hierbei sollen die Grundsätze des Arbeitskreises gelten… Dieser Abbeitskreis hier, der sich zusammen getan hat, bestehend aus allen Instanzen, bei mir versammelt, um die Sache zu besprechen. – Soll sich das nicht darauf beziehen vielleicht auf die Arbeit, die dieser Mischli…teil gerade zu machen hat?? Nein, es ist dieser Arbeitskreis, wie ich eben sagte – Und zwar ist dieser Entwurf, den Sie hier verlesen, nicht einmal von mir, weil die Parteikanzlei vielleicht eher Arbeitskreis schreiben kann – aber nicht eine staatl. Behörde, das Wort ist fremd im Sprachschatz. – Es ist so wie es öfters vorkam, Reischauer hat hier die Initiative gehabt, und hat nun, weil er ja als Parteikanzlei an die Leute von der Behörde nicht ran kam, da wäre er auf Opposition gestoßen, er hat also die Sache kurzerhand bei mir verlagert, denn ich verstand mich ja mit ihm ausgezeichnet – und hat hier die Sache angestoßen und ich habe eingeladen dazu. – Reischauer hat diese Sache initiell und auch verhandlungsmäßig geführt und hat auch den entsprechenden Vermerk abdiktiert, den er als ein vorläufiges Ergebnis dieses Arbeitskreises ansprach. – 5. Stimmen die rechtlichen Anordnung und die rassenmäßige Abstammung dieses jjed. bzw. Mischlingsteiles nicht überein, so soll das Gesetz in folgenden Fällen nicht angewandt werden; auch wenn der Teil gesetzlich als Jude gilt; a) wenn der Geltungsjude weniger als zwei rassenmäßig volljjed. Großelternteile besitzt – B) wenn der Geltungsjude zwei rassenmäßig volljüdische Großelternteile besitzt und aus der Mischehe Abkömmlinge, die als deutschblüti… oder Mischlinge 2 Grades gelten hervorgegangen sind. – Geltungsjude? Er gilt als Jude, aber nicht dann gilt er mehr als Jude, wenn – und jetzt kommen die Ausnahmen –

Draft translation

7 Volume 66 [HW: [?Fov?]] Because it will automatically change in favor of German blood. And that is why it did not interest me at all to set out the matter in detail, and that is why I did not memorize it either. And I recall that Reischauer kept driving me into this terrible notch again and again, because I did not have command of the complex, that is why it was tiresome to me when Reischauer kept jabbing again and again--I could not after all expose a weakness, not to know it-- so I had to look it up---that is why I told you right away, this comes from Reischauer.--- The law is to be applied in marriages between Germans and full-Jews in any case. 2. In marriages between Mischlinge [half-breeds] of the first degree and persons of German blood, then when the marriage is childless and the Mischling part [TS INS: does not] receive an exception, on the grounds of which he may remain unmolested in the Reich. - Herein the principles of the working group [Arbeitskreis] are to apply.... This working group here, which came together, consisting of all instances/authorities, assembled at my place, to discuss the matter.---- Is this not perhaps supposed to refer to the work that this Mischling part has just to do?? No, it is this working group, as I just said------ And indeed this draft, which you here read out, is not even from me, because the Party Chancellery perhaps can rather write "working group"--but not a state authority, the word is foreign in the vocabulary.--It is as it often occurred, Reischauer had the initiative here, and has now, because he as Party Chancellery could not get at the people of the authority, there he would have run into opposition, so he simply shifted the matter over to me, for I got along with him excellently--and pushed the matter here, and I invited to it.---- Reischauer conducted this matter initially and also in terms of negotiation, and also dictated off the corresponding memorandum, which he addressed as a preliminary result of this working group.---- 5. If the legal [DEL: [?and?]] regulation and the racial descent [DEL: [?not?]] of this Jew or Mischling part do not agree, then the law is not to be applied in the following cases; even if the part legally counts as a Jew; a) if the Geltungsjude [Jew-by-definition/counting-as-Jew] possesses fewer than two racially full-Jewish grandparents- B) if the Geltungsjude possesses two racially full-Jewish grandparents and from the mixed marriage descendants have issued who count as German-blooded or Mischlinge of the 2nd degree.-- Geltungsjude?--- He counts as a Jew, but then he no longer counts as a Jew, when------ and now come the exceptions----

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

The forthcoming result of the discussion is to be sent to the participating offices for an expedited, final opinion within two weeks ….

So it is just as I said. It was a simple discussion, and now they want to see how the individual authorities respond to it.

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

After this opinion has been submitted, a further discussion will take place at the Reich Security Main Office, if still necessary, to bring the wording together.

Questioner

[reading indistinct on the recording]

[Typed as notes in the transcript: Secret Reich matter (GRS) — 20 copies.]

Eichmann

From that you can see how large the circle of central authorities was.

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

At the discussion on 6 March… the following took part: Karstensen.

[unintelligible on the recording]

Schmidtburg, Propaganda Ministry.

Eichmann

Yes, I know him. He was an odd character, hard, without a personal opinion.

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

Marsfelder, Reich Ministry of Justice.

Eichmann

I do not know him.

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

Feldscher, Government Councillor (Regierungsrat), Interior Ministry.

Eichmann

Yes, I know him. He was a man, a brisk professor “on a comma” (auf einem Komma), only about ten years older—not stout, brisk, a well-fitting suit, a clear gaze.

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

Roleid, Senior Government Councillor (Oberregierungsrat), Dr., Reich Chancellery.

Eichmann

I cannot recall him.

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

Metzel, local-court judge (Amtsgerichtsrat).

Eichmann

Yes, I know him. A gentleman already worn out, but remarkably interested and courageous.

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

Hammerl, Dr., Office of the General Government.

Eichmann

No, I do not know him.

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

Billfinger, Senior Government Councillor (Oberregierungsrat).

Eichmann

Yes, I know him, from Office II—the Gestapo’s law man, the Reich Security Main Office. Now I remember: he was the desk officer and the department head responsible for legislative work.

Open page image and German
Page 701 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 701 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Das bevorstehende Besprechungsergebnis soll den beteiligten Dienststellen zur beschleunigten, abschließenden Stellungnahme innerhalb von 2 Wochen zugeführt we… Also doch wie ich sagte – es ist eine einfache Besprechung gewesen und nun will man sehen, wie sich die einzelnen Instanzen dazu äußeren. nach Abgabe dieser Stellungnahme, wird soweit noch erforderlich, eine weitere Besprechung zur Anschließung der Formulierung im RSHA stattfinden. (Vorlesen undeutlich – GRS – 20 Ausfertigungen. Daraus sehen Sie, wie groß der Kreis gewesen ist, der Zentralinstanzen, – Anläßlich der Besprechung am 6. 3. … haben teilgenommen; Karstensen (Unverständlich) Schmidtburg – Propag. Minist. Ja ist mir bekannt, war ein Sonderling, hart, ohne persönliche Meinung. Marsfelder – R.M. für Justiz Ist mir nicht bekannt Feldscher – Reg Rat. I.M. Ja, ist mir bekannt – er war ein Mann gewesen, ein forscher Prof auf einem Komm… nur um 10 Jahre älter – nicht beleibt, forsch, gut sitzenden Anzug, klarer Blick. – Roleid – Oberreg Rat, Dr. Reichskanzlei Kann mich nicht entsinnen Metzel, Amtsgerichtsrat Ja, bekannt, – ein bereits verbrauchter Herr – dafür aber merkwürdig interessiert un… couragiert Hammerl – Dr. – Amt des Gen. Gov. Nein, nicht bekannt Billfinger – Ober Reg Rat Ja, bekannt, vom Amt II – Gesetzonkel vom der Gestapo – RSHA – Jetzt weiß ich wie… der war Dezernent und zusatendige Abteilungsleiter für die gesetzgeberischen Arbeiten. –

Draft translation

8 Volume 66 [HW: 701] The forthcoming meeting result is to be forwarded to the participating agencies for an accelerated, final position/opinion within 2 weeks So indeed as I said--- it has been a simple meeting and now one wants to see how the individual authorities/instances express themselves on it. after submission of this position/opinion, insofar as still required, a further meeting for the joining/attachment of the formulation will take place in the RSHA. (Reading aloud indistinct------ GRS - 20 copies/exemplars. From this you see how large the circle was, of the central authorities,---- On the occasion of the meeting on 6 March ...... took part; Karstensen (Incomprehensible) Schmidtburg ---- Propag. Minist. Yes, is known to me, was an oddball/loner, hard, without personal opinion. Marsfelder - R.M. for Justice Is not known to me Feldscher- Reg[ierungs] Rat. I.M. Yes, is known to me --- he had been a man, a brisk/brash Prof on one comma only by 10 years older - not corpulent, brisk, well-fitting suit, clear gaze.-- Roleid - Oberreg[ierungs] Rat, Dr. Reich Chancellery Cannot recall Metzel, Amtsgerichtsrat [local court councillor] Yes, known,-an already worn-out gentleman- but for that remarkably interested and courageous Hammerl - Dr. - Office of the Gen[eral] Gov[ernment] No, not known Billfinger - Ober Reg[ierungs] Rat Yes, known, from Office II - law-uncle of the Gestapo--RSHA--- Now I know how [what?] he was Referent/desk-officer and responsible department head for the legislative works.-

A man of initiative, a distinctly dry jurist. Equally good as a jurist and ideologically.

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

Liegender, local-court judge (Amtsgerichtsrat). Begler, lawyer and notary, from the Commissioner for the Four-Year Plan.

Eichmann

Yes, that can be right. He quickly had himself assigned to war service in that way so that he would not have to go to the front.

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

Braeusch, SS Stf.. Kromann, SS Ostf. (Obersturmführer), Dr., from [?].

Eichmann

No, they mean nothing to me.

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages
Eichmann

Well, him we do know.

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

The discussion produced the following result. At the start of the discussion, the representative of the Reich Interior Ministry was asked to explain in more detail State Secretary Stuckart’s proposal, made at the discussion of …, to sterilize all people of mixed descent (Mischlinge). The persons to be covered by the sterilization—the legal basis—the legal mood (Stimmung) of the people of mixed descent after the sterilization had been carried out—

Questioner

[further unintelligible on the recording]

Eichmann

But it never came to practical implementation. At the request of the Party Chancellery, without any result whatsoever.

[unintelligible on the recording]

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

remain in the Reich after sterilization—

Eichmann

But it never was carried out, and the people of mixed descent all remained in the Reich despite that. It was a long-drawn-out affair that brought nothing but difficulties, and I reckon it was this affair. When I got the files later—when the Reichsführer-SS became Interior Minister—I had all the relevant files transferred to me from the Interior Ministry for my section. And I received files that Stuckart had not looked at closely. There was a file written on in green or blue pencil—I wrote in violet, Gruppenführer Mu … wrote in orange, the Chief of the Security Police wrote in blue, the Reichsführer-SS wrote in green.

So in green it said on it: “These are Eichmann-style Gypsy and [?] manners.” Stuckart had written that. And when I received the file, I went straight to Müller with it. It was the time when everyone wanted to bump everyone else off. And Müller will surely have thought: well, Eichmann is off his head again; you must not say anything to him; I am glad when he quietly gets on with his work again. And he said to me the phrase he kept bringing out: yes, in wartime we have other things to do than just shoot. We want to put it off until

Open page image and German
Page 702 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 702 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Ein Mann der Initiative, ein ausgesprochener trockener Jurist. – Jurist und wel… anschauliche gleichgut – Liegender – Amtsgerichtsrat Begler – Rechtsanwalt und Notar, vom Beauftragten f.d. 4 Jah… plan Ja, das kann stimmen, der hat sich noch schnell kriegsverpflichten lassen auf diese Art und Weise, damit er nicht an die Front braucht. Bräusch – SS Stf. Kromann – SS Ostf, Dr. vom (?) Nein, besagen mir nichts – Rademacher – Nun den kennen wir ja – Die Besprechung zeigte nachstehendes Ergebnis – Eingangs der Besprechung wurde der Vertreter des R. I M. gebeten, den Vorschlag von Staatssekr. Stukarth, in der Besprechung vom alle Mischlinge zu sterilisieren, näher zu erläutern; Der Personenkreis der unter die Sterilisierung fällt, – Rechtsgrundlage – rechtliche Stimmung der Mischlinge nach Erfolg der Steril. (weiteres unverständ… Aber es ist nie dazugekommen zur praktischen Durchführung, auf Wunsch der Parteikanzlei ohne jegliches Ergebnis …(unverständlich…) nach dem Steril. im Reich verbleiben – Aber es ist doch zur Ausführung nie gekommen – die Mischlinge sind aber trotzdem alle im Reich verblieben. Das ist eine langatmige Sache gewesen, die nichts als Schwierigkeiten mit sich brachte und ich schätze es ist dieses Sache gewesen als ich die Akten später, als der RF Innen-Minister wurde, habe ich sämtl. einschlägigen Akten aus dem IM übertragen bekommen für mein Dezernat, und da habe ich Akten bekommen, die sich Stukarth nicht genau angesehen hatte, da war ei… Akte mit Grün oder Blaustift geschrieben, – (ich schrieb violett, der Gruppf. Mu… schrieb orange – der Chef der Sipo schrieb blau – der RF schrieb grün) also in grün stand drauf; das sind Eichmannsche Zigeuner und (?) Manier… Stukarth hatte das geschrieben – und als ich die Akte bekam, bin ich sofort damit… Müller gegangen, es war so die Zeit wo jeder, jeden umlegen wollte, – und da wird Müller sicher auch gedacht haben, na, jetzt spinnt er mal wieder der Eichmann, man darf ihm nichts sagen, ich bin froh wenn er wieder in Ruhe weiterarbeitet, und sagte mir das Wort, was er immer wieder anbrachte, – ja in der Kriegszeit haben wir andere Sachen zu tun, als nur zu schießen, – wir wollen es zurückstellen bi…

Draft translation

9 Volume 66 [HW: 702] A man of initiative, a decidedly dry jurist.-- Jurist and world- view[ual] equally good---- Liegender - District Court Councillor [Amtsgerichtsrat] Begler - Attorney and Notary, from the Commissioner f[or] the 4 Yea[r] plan Yes, that can be right, he still had himself quickly war-obligated [conscripted into war service] in this manner, so that he would not have to [go] to the front. Braeusch - SS Stf. [Sturmbannführer] Kromann - SS Ostf, Dr. of the (?) No, they mean nothing to me-- Rademacher- Well him we do know --- The meeting showed the following result-- At the beginning of the meeting the representative of the R. I M. [Reich Interior Ministry] was asked to explain in more detail the proposal of State Secretary Stukarth, in the meeting of [to sterilize] all Mischlinge [persons of mixed descent], to sterilize; The circle of persons falling under the sterilization, --legal basis---- legal standing [Stimmung/status] of the Mischlinge after the sterilization has taken effect. (further unintelligibl[e] at [the] request But it never came to that, to practical implementation, [DEL: it was a draft] of the Party Chancellery without any result whatsoever ...(unintelligible....) after the steriliz[ation] to remain in the Reich-- But it did never come to execution----- but the Mischlinge did in spite of that all remain in the Reich. That was a long-winded affair, which brought nothing but difficulties with it and I reckon it was this affair when I [got] the files later, when the RF [Reichsführer] became Interior Minister, I had all the pertinent files transferred to me from the IM [Interior Ministry] for my Dezernat [department/section], and there I received files that Stukarth had not looked at closely, there was a file written with green or blue pencil, --(I wrote in violet, the Gruppf. Mu[eller] wrote in orange -the Chief of the Sipo wrote in blue- the RF wrote in green) so in green it stood on it; these are Eichmann's Gypsies and (?) Manner Stukarth had written that- and when I received the file, I went immediately with it [to] Mueller, it was such a time when everyone wanted to bump off everyone,- and there [would] Mueller surely also have thought, well, now he's off his head again the Eichmann, one must not say anything to him, I am glad when he goes on working again in peace, and said to me the word, which he brought up again and again,-yes in wartime we have other things to do than only to shoot,---we want to set it aside unti[l]

after the war. And then I let myself be calmed down again and did not challenge Stuckart. I also wanted to challenge Obergruppenführer Wolff to a pistol duel. I went off at once and said to Müller: this will not do; I want that man in front of my pistol. This will not do; I will not put up with it, and I ask for court-of-honor proceedings to be started at once, with the aim of fighting a pistol duel with him. And then a little while passed, and as a rule he had an important assignment for me, so that I forgot the other thing again.

And so it went with the Stuckart affair too. So the man is still alive today ….

Questioner

Then it goes on to say here:

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

it must also be considered that if people of mixed descent (Mischlinge) are left in Reich territory as an intermediate race, new administrative problems will continually arise for the Party and state offices in future as well. Even now all the offices have countless individual suggestions about the mixed-descent problem before them, which, because of the forthcoming Final Solution—

Questioner

[further unintelligible on the recording]

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

Should the Führer nevertheless, for political reasons, consider general compulsory sterilization to be the appropriate course, provision would have to be made for people of mixed descent in the first degree (Mischlinge ersten Grades) to be gathered together after sterilization in one area, in a special town, as old Jews are today.

Eichmann

They had Theresienstadt in mind there, a kind of Theresienstadt.

Questioner

Whose proposal is it?

Eichmann

All Party Chancellery. That is why I got so worked up about it. It was not I who was guilty of such Gypsy methods, because the side that rode roughshod over the others—the initiative—came from Reischauer.

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

There would still remain the voluntary sterilization of people of mixed descent in return for merciful permission to remain in the Reich. Then a discussion on 27 October 1942.

Questioner

[reading unintelligible on the recording]

Eichmann

Yes, Klingenfuss was Thadden’s representative.

[intervening conversation indistinct on the recording; I am sorry]

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

Landing Senior Administrative Councillor (Landungsoberverwaltungsrat) Weihrauch?

Eichmann

Yes, I know that name too, but I do not know where to place him.

Open page image and German
Page 703 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 703 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Nach dem Kriege – und ich habe mich dann wieder besänftigen lassen und habe Stukarth dann nicht gefordert – ich wollte auch den Obergrf. Wolf auf die Pisto… fordern, – denn ich bin sofort losgegangen und habe zu Müller gesagt, so geht da… nicht, den Mann will ich vor die Pistole haben, das geht nicht, das laß ich mir nicht bieten und ich bitte darum, daß sofort ein Ehrengericht verfahren in die Wege gelei… wird, mit dem Ziel daß ich mich mit dem Mann schieße. – Und dann verging eine kleine Weile und in der Regel hatte er dann einen wichtigen Auftrag für mich, daß ich das andere dann wieder vergessen habe. – Und so ging das auch mit der Geschichte mit Stukarth, der Mann lebt also heute no… Dann wird hier weiter gesagt; Es ist weiter zu berücksichtigen, daß bei einer Belassung der Mischlinge, als Zwischenrasse im Reichsgebiet ständige auch in Zukunft neue verwaltungsmäßige Probleme zu den Partei und Staatsstellen auftauchen, da bereits heute sämtliche Dienststellen ungezählte Einzelanregungen für des Mischlingsproblems vorliegen, die wegen der bevorstehenden Endlösungs (weiteres unverständlich) – Sollte der Führer gleichwohl aus polit. Gründen eine allgemeine Zwangssteril. für den geeigneten Weg halten, so wäre vorzusehen, daß nach der Steril. die Mischlinge ersten Grades, ähnlich wie heute alte Juden in einem Gebiet in einer besonderen Stadt zusammen gefaßt werden. Da schwebte ihnen Theresienstadt vor, eine Art Thersienstadt – Von wem ist der Vorschlag? Alles Parteikanzlei – deswegen habe ich mich ja auch so aufgeregt, nicht ich habe mich solcher Zigeunermethoden schuldig gemacht, denn der überfahrende Teil, die Initiative, die kam ja von Reischauer. Es bliebe noch die freiwillige Steril. von Mischlinge als Gegenleistung für die gnadenreiche Belassung im Reich. – Dann eine Besprechung a, 27 Oct. 1942, (unverständliches Vorlesen) Ja, Klingenfuss war der Vertreter von Thadden gewesen – (Zwischenunterhaltung undeutlich, I am sorry-) Landungsoberverwaltungsrat Weihrauch? Ja den Namen kenne ich auch, aber ich weiß nicht, wo ich ihn hintuen soll –

Draft translation

10 Band 66 [Volume 66] 703 After the war--and I then let myself be calmed down again and did then not challenge Stukarth [Stuckart]--- I also wanted to challenge Obergrf. [Obergruppenführer] Wolf to the pisto[l],--for I went off immediately and said to Mueller, this does not work like that, this man I want in front of the pistol, that does not work, that I will not let myself be offered [put up with] and I request that immediately a court of honor [TS INS: proceeding] be set in motion, with the goal that I shoot it out with the man.--- And then a little while passed and as a rule he then had an important assignment for me, so that I then forgot the other thing again.----- And so it went too with the story with Stukarth, the man thus lives still to[day] Then it is said further here; It is further to be considered that with a retention [leaving in place] of the Mischlinge [mixed-race persons/half-Jews], as an intermediate race in the Reich territory, constantly also in future new administrative-type problems arise for the Party and State offices, since already today all offices have countless individual suggestions for the Mischling problem [before them], which because of the impending final-solution [matters] (further unintelligible)-- Should the Führer nevertheless for polit[ical] reasons consider a general compulsory steril[ization] to be the suitable way, then it would be to be provided that after the steril[ization] the Mischlinge of the first degree, similarly as today old Jews, be gathered together in a territory in a special city. [DEL: That will be Theresienstadt] There they had Theresienstadt in mind, a kind of Theresienstadt-- By whom is the proposal? All Party Chancellery [Parteikanzlei]-- that is why I got so worked up, [it is] not [that] I made myself guilty of such Gypsy methods,, for the overriding part, the initiative, that indeed came from Reischauer. There would still remain the voluntary steril[ization] of Mischlinge as a counter-service [quid pro quo] for the mercy-full retention [being allowed to remain] in the Reich.-- Then a discussion o[n] 27 Oct. 1942, (unintelligible reading-aloud) Yes, Klingenfuss had been the representative of Thadden- (interjected conversation indistinct, I am sorry-) Landungsoberverwaltungsrat [Landing Senior Administrative Councillor] Weihrauch? Yes, that name I also know, but I do not know where I should put him --

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

Sturmbannführer Dr. Stier? Reich Security Main Office II a.

Yes, that was Billfinger’s subordinate.

Questioner

Obersturmbannführer Dr. [?].

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

Sturmbannführer Dr., Government Councillor (Regierungsrat) Neufeind?

Eichmann

He is from Office IV, if I am not mistaken.

Questioner

No, III a.

Eichmann

Yes, he was with Ohlendorf—

[very indistinct on the recording]

yes, I know him very well.

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

Sturmbannführer Dr. Rodenberg? III a.

Eichmann

Yes.

Questioner

No, there is a mistake here. Neufeind is from II a 2.

Eichmann

Yes, that is right, now I remember. Yes, he was a subordinate of Billfin ….

Questioner

Yes, but one is II a, and the other is II a 2.

Eichmann

Yes, the II a man is the group leader, and Neufeind is II a 2, so he is a desk officer, a referent in Billfinger’s group. And Rodenberg is III a, group leader under Ohlendorf.

Questioner

Then comes

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

Obersturmbannführer Eichmann, Sturmbannführer Günther, Sturmbannführer Suhr, and Government Councillor (Regierungsrat) Wunsche.

Eichmann

Yes, Wunsche and Suhr were my two Government Councillors (Regierungsräte).

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

The discussion produces the following result: people of mixed descent (Mischlinge)—a) people of mixed descent in the first degree—

Questioner

[article read aloud]

Eichmann

Do you know who may have said that, and will have, and did? The representative of the Party Chancellery.

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

In view of this, the proposal was…

Eichmann

But all of that was only a preliminary discussion, and nothing was made into a decree. It was all only a discussion among desk officers, not yet a discussion among ministers.

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

The possibility of a choice

Questioner

—the choice is either to be sterilized or to be deported…

Eichmann

That is how the desk officers discussed it, after apparently no substantive objections

Open page image and German
Page 704 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 704 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Stbaf. Dr. Stier? – RSHA II a Ja, das ist der Unterläufer von Billfinger gewesen Ostbaf. Dr. (?) Stbaf. Dr. Reg Rat Neufeind? Der ist vom Amt IV, wenn ich nicht irre – Nein, III a (?) (sehr undeutlich) Ja, der ist von Ohlendorf gewesen, ja, den kenne ich sehr gut – Stbaf. Dr. Rothenberg? – III a Ja, – Nein, hier ein Irrtum, Neufeind kommt von II a 2 Ja, stimmt, jetzt erinnere ich mich – ja er war ein Untergeordneter von Billfin… Ja, aber der eine ist II a, und der andere ist II a 2 Ja, der IIa ist der Gruppenleiter – und der Neufeind ist II a 2, also ist er Dezernent, Referent in der Gruppe Billfinger. Und Rothenberg ist III a, Gruppenleiter bei Ohlendorf. Dann kommt Ostbaf. Eichmann, Stbaf Günter, Stbaf. Surr, und Reg Rat Wunsche Ja, Wunsche und Surr waren meine beide Reg Räte. Die Besprechung zeigt ein nachstehendes Ergebnis; Mischlinge – a) Mischlinge 1. Grades – (Vorlesen des Artikels… Wissen Sie wer das gesagt haben mag und wird und hat, der Vertreter der Parteikanzlei. – Mit Rücksicht hierauf wurde der Vorschlag… Das ist alles aber erst Vorbesprechung gewesen und nichts zur Verordnung erhoben worden – Es ist ja alles nur Dezernentenbesprechung, aber noch nicht Ministerbesp. Die Möglichkeit der Wahl, also die Wahl ist entweder steril. oder deportiert… So wurde das von den Dezernenten besprochen, nachdem offenbar keine sachlichen Bedenken

Draft translation

11 Volume 66 [HW: 704] Stbaf. Dr. Stier? — RSHA II a Yes, that was Billfinger's subordinate Ostbaf. Dr. (?) Stbaf. Dr. Reg[ierungs]rat Neufeind? He is from Amt IV, if I am not mistaken— No, III a (?) (very indistinct) Yes, he was Ohlendorf's, yes, I know him very well— Stbaf. Dr. Rothenberg? - III a Yes, --- No, here an error, Neufeind comes from II a 2 Yes, correct, now I remember-----yes he was a subordinate of Billfin[ger] Yes, but the one is II a, and the other is II a 2 Yes, the II a is the group leader --- and the Neufeind is II a 2, so he is desk officer, referent in Billfinger's group. And Rothenberg is III a, group leader under Ohlendorf. Then comes Ostbaf. Eichmann, Stbaf. Guenter, Stbaf. Surr, and Reg[ierungs]rat Wunsche Yes, Wunsche and Surr were my two Regierungsräte. The discussion shows a following result; Mischlinge [persons of mixed descent] - a) Mischlinge 1st degree- (Reading aloud of the article.... Do you know who may have said and will [say] and has [said] that, the representative of the Party Chancellery.-- With regard [DEL: wwrx] to this the proposal was.......... But this was all only preliminary discussion and nothing was elevated to the ordinance -----It is indeed all only desk-officer discussion, but not yet ministerial discussion. The possibility of the choice, that is the choice is either sterilized. or deported..... Thus this was discussed by the desk officers, after apparently no substantive objections

were raised.

Questioner reads from the minutes of the 1942 meetings on mixed marriages

The possibilities of a choice…

Eichmann

All these documents—they surely found them in the Party Chancellery; I can say that today. What copy number does this letter have?

Questioner

Copy 1.

Eichmann

You see, copy 1.

Questioner

Yes, but what is that supposed to mean—Reich Security Main Office?

Eichmann

No, the Reich Security Main Office did not give itself a copy, because that was the memorandum.

Questioner

No, for Müller perhaps. You do not give copy 1 to some Party nobody who has wandered in, but rather…

Eichmann

Yes, but the memorandum that stays in-house gets no number at all. Only the one that goes out gets a number. It only becomes a secret Reich matter (GRS) when it leaves the office. Here it is only a memorandum, not an issued copy. If I say it is a Party Chancellery matter, then I will have given it to the Party Chancellery first.

Questioner

Was there not a fixed rule for that?

Eichmann

No, people acted off the cuff. But the Reich Chancellery was the most important office; it clashed with everyone. I think I have already said it several times. I myself was also interested in that, because if Reischauer was involved, I did not need to discuss anything at all. He took care of the whole business, because he was from the higher authority. Earlier the Party Chancellery had been the Deputy Chancellery of the Führer, and that settled the matter. I could only object, and I did object, when the Security Police had reservations—that is, reservations about practical execution by the Gestapo.

Questioner

Tell me, Viktor Brack?

Eichmann

Yes, he is from the Chancellery of the Führer. That is SA Brigadeführer Brack, a Berliner, and Brack was assigned the killing of idiots by Bohle.

Bohle had been Reich Office Leader (Reichsamtsleiter), and his representative was SA Brigadeführer Brack. I visited Brack twice in the Reich Chancellery. Only through those visits did I see the Reich Chancellery at all. I came into the Reich Chancellery, the entrance on Poststrasse. Two SA sentries stood outside with their slung …. I came up; the sentries presented …. I waved them off, went inside and came into a hall—first registration, then the hall,

Open page image and German
Page 705 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 705 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

geltend gemacht worden sind. Die Möglichkeiten der Wahl… Diese ganzen Unterlagen, die haben sie sicher gefunden in der Parteikanzlei, das kann ich heute sagen – was hat das für eine Ausfertigung dieses Schreiben? 1. Ausfertigung Sehen Sie, 1. Ausfertigung Ja, aber was soll das heißen, RSHA? Nein, das RSHA hat sich selber doch keine Ausfertigung gegeben, denn das war ja der Vermerk gewesen. Nein, für Müller vielleicht – man gibt doch eine 1. Ausfertigung nicht einem hergelaufenen Parteiheini, sondern… Ja, aber der Vermerk der im Hause bleibt, bekommt ja gar keine Nummer, nur der heraus geht, bekommt eine Nummer. – Es wird ja erst GRS wenn es aus dem Hause geht, – es ist hier ja nur als Vermerk gegeben, es ist ja keine Ausfertigung Wenn ich sage, es ist eine Sache der Parteikanzlei, dann werde ich es der Parteikanzlei gegeben haben, als erstes – Gab es da nicht eine feste Norm? Nein – da ist frei nach Schnauze gehandelt worden – aber die Reichskanzlei war die wichtigste Stelle gewesen, die bockte ja nun alle an – ich glaube ich habe es schon mehrmals gesagt – ich selbst war ja auch interessiert daran, denn wenn Reischauer mit bei der Sache war, dann brauchte ich ja gar nichts zu besprechen, dann besorgte er den ganzen Laden – denn er war von der höheren Instanz, früher war ja die Parteikanzlei, die Stellvertr. Kanzlei des Führers – und damit war die Sache in Ordnung. Ich konnte nur dagegen angehen und bin auch dagegen angegangen, wenn die Sipo da Bedenken witterte. D. H. Bedenken, der praktischen exekut. Durchführung durch die Gestapo. Sagen Sie mir, Viktor Brack? Ja, der ist von der Kanzlei des Führers, das ist der SA Brigf. Brack, – Berliner – und der Brack hat die Tötung von Idioten übertragen bekommen von Bohle. – Bohle war Reichsamtsleiter gewesen und sein Beauftragter war der SA Brigf. Brack. Und zwar habe ich den Brack zweimal besucht in der Reichskanzlei, nur durch diese Besuche sah ich überhaupt die Reichskanzlei – Ich kam in die Reichskanzlei, Eingang Poststraße, davor standen zwei Posten von der SA mit den umgehängten … – Ich kam ran, die Posten presentie… ich winkte ab, ging hinein und kam in eine Halle, erst Anmeldung, dann die Halle,

Draft translation

12 Volume 66 [HW: 705] have been asserted / invoked. The possibilities of the choice........... All these [DEL: [illegible]] [TS INS: docu]ments, they surely found them in the Party Chancellery, that I can say today--- what kind of copy/execution [Ausfertigung] does this letter have? 1st copy [Ausfertigung] You see, 1st copy Yes, but what is that supposed to mean, RSHA? No, the RSHA did not give itself a copy, for that was after all the note [Vermerk]. No, for Mueller perhaps--- one does not give a 1st copy to some vagrant party hack [hergelaufener Parteiheini], but rather..... Yes, but the note that stays in the house gets no number at all, only the one that goes out gets a number.-- It only becomes GRS when it goes out of the house, --- here it is only given as a note, it is not a copy at all. When I say it is a matter for the Party Chancellery, then I will have given it to the Party Chancellery, as the first thing--- Was there not a fixed norm/rule there? No--- there it was handled freely off the cuff [frei nach Schnauze] -- but the Reich Chancellery was the most important office, it balked at [bockte an] everyone now--- I believe I have already said it several times--- I myself was after all also interested in it, for if Reischauer was in on the matter, then I did not need to discuss anything at all, then he took care of the whole shop- for he was of the higher instance, formerly the Party Chancellery was the Deputy Chancellery of the Fuehrer----- and with that the matter was in order. I could only oppose it and did also oppose it, when the Sipo scented misgivings [Bedenken] there. That is, misgivings about the practical executive carrying-out by the Gestapo. Tell me, Viktor Brack? Yes, he is from the Chancellery of the Fuehrer, that is the SA Brigadeführer Brack,-Berliner- and Brack was assigned the killing of idiots [Toetung von Idioten] by Bohle.-- Bohle had been Reichsamtsleiter and his deputy/agent was the SA Brigadeführer Brack. And indeed I visited Brack twice in the Reich Chancellery, only through these visits did I see the Reich Chancellery at all--- I came into the Reich Chancellery, entrance Poststrasse, in front of it stood two sentries of the SA with their slung [ ].- I came up, the sentries presente[d arms] I waved [them] off, went in and came into a hall, first registration, then the hall,

everything wonderfully laid out in mosaic, the overall impression green. There were a few naked male figures there, in bronze or something similar. I was accompanied by a non-commissioned officer. I went up to the first floor—long, terribly long corridors; you walked on red runners. I came to another desk, where a cheap and ridiculous junior leader (Unterführer) sat, this time from the SS. I had to write everything down again that I had already entered downstairs. That annoyed me a great deal, because I had shown my red executive identity card to the State Police (Stapo), and it always got me in everywhere. I never had to give my personal details anywhere.

Another messenger then ushered me onward, and once again I had to give my particulars. Everything was written down: when born, in what year, how so, why, and so on. I just want to point out, as an amusing detail, that they checked me inside out and that my identity card, which otherwise opened every door for me, made no impression at all. Then I came to a corner—there were always such long corridors—and sat down on some club-style seating. I had no time at all to look at the pictures: the Brigadeführer was already coming out. He greeted me, took me in, and I entered a room which, compared with the luxury I had seen until then, could be described as extremely simple and unpretentious.

Here this man said to me: well, Obersturmbannführer, the idiots are all being gassed now. And he also described to me how it is done.

Questioner

In what year was that?

Eichmann

I no longer know. I would say, without being certain, it may have been the year 42.

And then he said to me: could you not let me have a few trains from your timetable? At which I said to myself: my God, now you are here in the Chancellery of the Führer, you have been checked all the way, this place is the most important thing in the Reich, and now some fellow asks me whether he can have a few trains from me. And he is very friendly with me because he wants to burn up a few idiots. And then he also told me the whole story about Reich Office Leader (Reichsamtsleiter) Bohle, that he had an order from the Führer, and he made the whole matter plausible to me, just so that I would give him a few trains.

And I said to myself: you can instruct the Reich Transport Ministry yourselves. Just give the instruction and those fellows jump, while I have to fight for it—that is what I thought. Yes, I said, if I have trains that I fought hard to get and that are not needed because of a sudden stoppage, you can have them. I will instruct my case officer to get in touch with your case officer; then the trains will be handed over to you through the Reich Transport Ministry. That will work, because they do not care what the trains are for; the main thing is that they roll. That was my business, the reason I was ordered to the Reich Chancellery of the Führer.

Questioner

Brack did not ask you about Auschwitz.

Eichmann

No, they had such an apparatus of their own.

Open page image and German
Page 706 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 706 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Alles wunderbar ausgelegt mit Mosaik, Gesamteindruck grün, – es waren ein paar nakte Mannsbilder dort gewesen aus Bronze oder so ähnlich, ich wurde durch einen Unteroffizier begleitet, ich kam rauf in den ersten Stock, lange, furchtbar lange Gänge, man ging auf roten Läufern, ich kam wieder zu einem Schreibtisch, wo ein billiger und lächerlicher Unterführer saß, diesmal von der SS, ich mußte wieder alles einschreiben, was ich unten bereits getan hatte, das hatte mich sehr geärgert, denn ich hatte meinen roten Exek. Ausweis vorgezeigt vor der Stapo und der beschaffte mir immer überall Entré, ich hatte mich nirgends personalmäßig festzulegen, ich wurde wieder weiter geschläust durch einen anderen Läufer, und mußte schon wieder meine Personalien von mir geben, es wurde alles aufgeschrieben, wann geboren, in welchem Jahr, wieso, warum usw. – ich möchte also nur witzigerweise feststellen, daß man mich auf Herz und Nieren prüfte und daß mein Ausweis, der mir sonst alle Türen öffnete, überhaupt keinen Eindruck machte. – Und dann kam ich in eine Ecke, es waren immer so lange Gänge – und dann nahm ich in einer Clubgarnitur Platz, ich hatte gar keine Zeit mir die Bilder anzusehen, – schon kam der Brigf. raus, begrüßte mich, nahm mich rein und ich kam in ein Zimmer, daß im Verhältnis mit dem Luxus, den ich bis jetzt gesehen hatte, als überaus einfach und bieder anzusprechen war. Hier mir dieser Mann gesagt, nun, Obstbaf. die Idioten werden nun alle vergast, und hat mir auch geschildert wie das gemacht wird… In welchem Jahr war das? Das weiß ich nicht mehr, – ich möchte sagen ohne sicher zu sein, es kann das Jahr 42 gewesen sein. – Und da sagte er mir, könnten Sie mir nicht ein paar Züge aus Ihrem Fahrplan abtreten, worauf ich mir noch sagte, mein Gott, jetzt bist Du hier in der Kanzlei des Führers, bist hier dauernd kontrolliert worden, der Laden ist ja überhaupt das Wichtigste im Reich, und da fragt mich nun so ein Onkel, ob er von mir ein paar Züge haben kann. Und er ist sehr freundlich mit mir, weil er ein paar Idioten verheizen will, – Und da sagte er mir auch die ganze Geschichte vom Reichsamtsleiter Bohle, daß er Führerbefehl hätte, und hat mir die ganze Sache plausible gemacht, bloß daß ich ihm ein paar Züge gebe… und ich habe mir noch gesagt, Ihr könnt doch das RVM selber anweisen, nur anzuweisen und da springen die Heinis und ich muß mich drumr aufen, so sagte ich in meinem Sinn… Ja, sagte ich, wenn ich Züge habe, die ich mir heiß erkämpft habe und die durch eine plötzliche Stockung nicht notwendig sind, die können Sie haben, da werde ich meinen Sachbearbeiter anweisen, damit er sich mit Ihrem Sachbearbeiter ins Benehmen setzt, dann werden Ihnen über das RVM die Züge abgetreten, das geht wohl, denn deren ist ja ganz egal für was die Züge sind, Hauptsache, sie rollen. Das war meine Sache, weswegen ich in die Reichskanzlei des Führers befohlen wurde. Brack hat sich bei Ihnen nicht nach Auschwitz erkundigt. – Nein, die haben selbst so einen Apparat gehabt…

Draft translation

Volume 66 706 All wonderfully laid out with mosaic, overall impression green, - there had been a few naked male figures there made of bronze or something similar, I was accompanied by a non-commissioned officer, I came up to the first floor, long, terribly long corridors, one walked on red runners, I came again to a desk, where a cheap and ridiculous junior leader sat, this time from the SS, I had to enter everything again, which I had already done downstairs, this had annoyed me very much, because I had shown my red Exec. identity card at the Stapo and it always got me entry everywhere, I had nowhere to commit myself in terms of personal details, I was again channeled further through another runner, and had to give my personal details again, everything was written down, when born, in which year, , how so, why etc. --- I would thus only, amusingly, like to note that they examined me thoroughly [lit. tested me on heart and kidneys] and that my identity card, which otherwise opened all doors for me, made no impression at all.---- And then I came into a corner, there were always such long corridors----- and then I took a seat in a club [furniture] set, I had no time at all to look at the pictures, --- already the Brig[adeführer]. came out, greeted me, took me in and I came into a room, which in relation to the luxury that I had seen up to now, was to be described as exceedingly simple and plain. Here this man said to me, well, Obstbaf. [Obersturmbannführer], the idiots will now all be gassed, and also described to me how it is done.... In which year was that? That I no longer know,--I would like to say without being sure, it may have been the year 42.-- And then he said to me, could you not cede to me a few trains from your timetable, whereupon I still said to myself, my God, now you are here in the Chancellery of the Führer, have been continuously controlled here, the place is after all the most important thing in the Reich, and now some uncle asks me whether he can have a few trains from me. And he is very friendly with me, because he wants to burn up [dispose of / kill] a few idiots,----- And then he also told me the whole story about Reich Office Leader Bohle, that he had a Führer order, and made the whole matter plausible to me, only that I should give him a few trains..... and I still said [TS INS: to myself], you can indeed instruct the RVM yourselves, only to instruct and then the guys jump and I have to fight over it, so I said in my mind.... Yes, I said, if I have trains that I fought hard for and which through a sudden stoppage are not necessary, those you can have, then I will instruct my case officer, so that he gets in contact with your case officer, then the trains will be ceded to you via the RVM, that will work, because for them it is completely indifferent for what the trains are, main thing, they roll. That was my business, on account of which I was ordered to the Reich Chancellery of the Führer. Brack did not inquire of you about Auschwitz.---- No, they themselves had such an apparatus....

Questioner

So you mean that Brack—or rather, that a separate apparatus existed for the killing of these idiots?

No, he did not say that, but in some asylum for idiots there was something of the sort. I was hearing about it here for the first time too. At that point I think nothing at all was yet known about iodine gassing (Jodvergasung). But it was not Brack who told me that. It was another man who held the same rank and had a name, as I have already said, that sounded like a stretch of countryside around Berlin. He had told me that they had fitted sprays up above that looked like showers, and that it was a shower room, and they would put the idiots in there and throw prussic acid in. Like beer mats—they were probably pieces of cardboard soaked in prussic acid. I cannot picture it any other way.

Listen · The shower-room account · 0:18

I know through my second mother—but this is not to go into the book; I am thinking aloud now—whom I had from earliest childhood and whom I greatly revered: her mother had a sister, and this sister married the section chief (Sektionschef), that is, in German usage, State Secretary in the Austro-Hungarian Ministry of Education, namely Franz, Baron (Freiherr) von Heimmerle. So that was my great-uncle. His wife, Great-Aunt Olga, repeatedly came to us in Linz and asked us children about our personal wishes. Back then I had asked for the book “… War”.

When I got older, perhaps nineteen or twenty, I too travelled to Vienna alone for the first time and visited my great-uncle Franz, a man of very small stature. We used to say that he travelled only second class on the railway because that was where he could best hear what people thought of the government. He was an old gentleman, and he had spent his life in the service of the old Emperor F. J. (Franz Josef). This marriage produced a son, an uncle of mine, who never appeared. Then there was a second uncle, Fritz, who was a captain on the Imperial-Royal (KK) Austrian General Staff. He later married a Jewish woman who was a sugar industrialist in Czechoslovakia, later married Liliane …, a film actress of the day, and in a third marriage married a caretaker’s daughter from Vienna.

I think I must tell you all this so that you know everything about me. Then this marriage had a third child, Uncle Rudi, who was likewise a captain on the Imperial-Royal (KK) Austro-Hungarian General Staff during the First World War. He left the service as an officer, and his wife, a middle-class woman, had wonderful tapestry bags embroidered, or did the preliminary embroidery herself—bags that she sold for outrageously high prices in Bad Gastein or at other exhibitions to North American millionaires. I do not say that without reason either, because I am going to come back to these bags.

When I was once sitting in Berlin, probably in 1943, suspecting nothing, my guard on duty reported that there was a man there who was being insolent and wanted to speak to me at once. He said he was an uncle of mine, a certain Heimmerle. And I said: send the fellow up. I knew it was my uncle, the one who had once got me a position as a travelling representative at W&Oel Co (Vacuum Oil Company), because he was a close friend of Director Weiss. This Uncle Fritz had been president of the Austrian Automobile Club for years. So this uncle had helped me back then. I had five fine years at W&Oel Co (Vacuum Oil Company); through my work I always had a

Open page image and German
Page 707 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 707 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Also Sie meinen, daß Brack, bzw. daß für die Tötung dieser Idioten ein selbständiger Apparat vorhanden war? Nein, das hat er nicht gesagt, aber in irgendeiner Idiotenanstalt war da so etwas Ich hörte ja hier auch zum ersten Mal von dem, da war glaube ich mit Jodvergasung überhaupt noch nichts bekannt. Das sagte mir aber nicht Brack, das war ein anderer Mann, der aber den gleichen Dienstrang hatte, der hatte einen Namen, wie ich schon sagte, der nach einer Berlinerumgebungslandschaft klang. Der hatte mir erzählt, daß sie oben Brausen angebracht hätten, die wie Duschen aussehen und das wäre ein Duschraum und da würden sie die Idioten hineingeben und würden Blausäure hineinschmeißen. wie Bierpfilze, das waren wohl Pappdeckel gewesen, die in Blausäure getränkt waren, ich kann es mir nicht anders vorstelle… Ich weiß durch meine 2. Mutter, (aber das soll nicht ins Buch, ich denke nun laut die ich von frühester Kindheit hatte und die ich sehr verehrte, deren Mutter hatte eine Schwester und diese Schwester heiratete den Sektionschef, daß ist nach deutschen Sprachgebrauch, Staatssekr. im österr. ungar. Unterrichtsministerium und zwar den Franz, Freiherr von Heimmerle (?) das also war mein Großonkel. Seine Frau, die Großtante Olga, kam wiederholt zu uns nach Linz, und frug uns Kinder, nach unseren persönl. Würschen. – Ich hatte mir damals das Buch gewünscht der "… Krieg." – Als ich größer wurde, vielleicht 19 od 20 J. fuhr ich auch selbst erstmalig allein nach Wien, besuchte meinen Großonkel Franz, ein Mann von kleinster Statur, ein Mann von dem man bei uns sagte, er führe in der Eisenbahn nur 2. Kl. weil er dort am besten höre, wie das Volk über die Reg. denke. Es war ein alter Herr gewesen und er hatte sein Leben verbraucht im Dienst des alten Kaiser F. J. Aus dieser Ehe ging hervor ein Sohn, also ein Onkel von mir, der aber nie in Erscheinung trat. Dann noch ein 2. Onkel Fritz, der Hauptmann im KK. österr. Generalstab war, später eine jüd. Zuckerindustrielle in der Czechoslowakei heiratete, später Liliane … eine damalige Filmschauspielerin heiratete, und in dritter Ehe eine Hausmeisterstochter aus Wien heiratete. – Ich glaube ich muß Ihnen das alles erzählen, damit Sie auch alles wissen über mich. Dann hatte diese Ehe eine drittes Kind, der Onkel Rudi, derselbe war auch Hauptmann im KK österr. ungar. Generalstabs während des ersten Weltkrieges gewesen. Der halfürte ab als Offizier und seine Frau, eine Bür[unleserlich]liche hatte wunderbare Gobelintaschen sticken lassen, oder selbst vorgestickt, Taschen, die sie zu einem sündhaft teuren Geld in Bad Gastein oder an sonstigen Ausstellungen an nordamerikanische Millionäre verkaufte, auch das sage ich nicht ohne Grund, weil ich auf diese Taschen noch zu sprechen komme. Als ich einmal, wohl 1943, nichtsahnend in Berlin saß, meldete mir mein Wachhabender, daß hier ein Mann wäre, der frech wäre und mich sofort zu sprechen wünsche, er sagt er sei ein Onkel von mir, ein gewisser Heimmerle. Und da habe ich gesagt, rauf, mit dem Kerl, denn ich wußte es war mein Onkel, der mir einmal eine Stellung besorgt hat, als Reisebeamter, bei der W&Oel Co, weil er mit dem Direktor Weiss eng befreundet war, denn dieser Onkel Fritz, war jahrelang Präsident des österr. Automobilclubs gewesen, nun hatte mir dieser Onkel damals geholfen, ich hatte 5 schöne Jahre bei der W&Oel Co, ich hatte durch meine Tätigkeit immer eine

Draft translation

So you mean that Brack, or rather that for the killing of these idiots a self-contained apparatus was in place? No, he did not say that, but in some idiot asylum there was something like that. I heard here too for the first time about that [one], back then I believe there was nothing at all known yet about it gassing [i]t. But it was not Brack who told me that, that was another man, who however had the same service rank, who had a name, as I already said, that sounded like some Berlin surrounding-landscape [place-name]. He had told me that up top they had installed sprays that look like showers and that would be a shower room and there they would put the idiots in and would throw prussic acid in. like beer-mats [Bierpilze?], those had probably been cardboard covers that had been soaked in prussic acid, I cannot picture it to myself any other way. I know through my 2nd mother, (but this is not to go in the book, I am now thinking out loud) whom I had from earliest childhood and whom I greatly revered, whose mother had a sister and this sister married the section chief, that is [DEL: ixxOestrxx] in German usage, State Secretary in the Austro-Hungarian Ministry of Education, namely the Franz, Freiherr von Heimmerle (?) that then was my great-uncle. His wife, the great-aunt Olga, came repeatedly to us in Linz, and asked us children about our personal wishes.--I had at that time wished for myself the book of the " War."--- When I grew bigger, perhaps 19 or 20 years, I also myself traveled for the first time alone to Vienna, visited my great-uncle Franz, a man of smallest stature, a man of whom one said at our place, he travels on the railway only 2nd class because he hears best there how the people think about the government. He had been an old gentleman and he had spent his life in the service of the old Emperor F. J. From this marriage there came forth a son, thus an uncle of mine, who however never came into appearance. Then also a 2nd uncle Fritz, who was captain in the I.R. [KK] Austrian general staff, later married a Jewish sugar-industrialist woman in Czechoslovakia, later married Liliane a film actress of that time, and in a third marriage married a caretaker's daughter from Vienna.----- I believe I must tell you all this, so that you too know everything about me. Then this marriage had a third child, uncle Rudi, the same was also captain in the I.R. [KK] Austro-Hungarian general staff during the first World War. He mustered out [balfuerte ab] as an officer and his wife, a bourgeois woman, had had wonderful Gobelin bags [tapestry bags] embroidered, or pre-embroidered them herself, bags that she sold for a sinfully expensive money in Bad Gastein or at other exhibitions to North American millionaires, that too I do not say without reason, because I will come to speak of these bags again. When I once, probably 1943, was sitting unsuspecting in Berlin, my guard-officer on duty reported to me that there was a man here who was insolent and wished to speak to me at once, he says he is an uncle of mine, a certain Heimmerle. And then I said, up, with the fellow, because I knew it was my uncle, who once got me a position, as a traveling official, at the W&Oel Co, because he was closely friends with the director Weiss, for this uncle Fritz had for years been president of the Austrian Automobile Club, now this uncle had helped me back then, I had 5 fine years at the W&Oel Co, I had through my activity always a

full wallet, and now he comes to me and brings a woman with him, a nice young woman, and after we had greeted each other he says to me, this is your cousin, you two don't know each other. So I take my cousin in my arms, and then he says to me, you know, that is the daughter from my first marriage, and you may or may not know that Aunt Dor… was a Jewess, the daughter of a Czech sugar industrialist.

He had married her when he finished his law studies, and I still remember from my old lady that he said at the time, I can't bring you anything more than this bouquet of red roses; I have no money, you have the money—although he wasn't without means either, but next to that rich family, naturally, as poor as church mice. And so, wearing the uniform of an Oberstbaf (Obersturmbannführer) in my office on Kurfürstenstrasse, I still kissed my cousin by marriage goodbye, even though I now knew who she was. The purpose of my uncle's visit was for me to allow her to leave for Switzerland, so that she could pass freely through the border crossings.

Well, I thought to myself, thank God, she's of mixed ancestry (Mischling). My personal attitude toward people of mixed ancestry had always been very positive, because I told myself, a person of mixed ancestry keeps getting better in terms of blood. Of course, if he went abroad, he could also, in the negative sense, under the Nuremberg laws, become a full Jew again. But then it was abroad, and I wasn't responsible for it. And because I was thinking so positively about it, I said to my uncle and to my really beautiful cousin, well, we'll manage it somehow. That evening my uncle asked me to be his guest at the hotel where he was staying, and we drank a few bottles of wine there, and his little daughter was there too, and we talked and were in good spirits, and then she swept off to Switzerland.

That evening he said to me, you know, my mother—he meant my great-aunt Olga—is inconsolable, because his eldest brother, who was a professor at the university in Vienna, suffered from delusions of persecution and had been placed in the Martinsstift near Linz, where there was a Protestant Inner Mission center under Rector Saul. This Rector Saul played a large part in our family life, because every time he came through Linz he stayed with us as our guest. My father met his second wife in Gallertkirchen, where she came every year from Vienna with her old father for the summer, and this Rector Saul, when my father asked whether he knew a nice woman who could be a mother to his children, named this woman.

And this Heimmerle family had [?]—this Inner Mission center, which had a mother house for deaconesses, which had an old people's home called …, where old people could pay for a place to spend their remaining years, and where, among others, a certain Director … lived with his housekeeper. They too had paid for a place there. He had been director of the Dresden Tramway and Electric Company for years, and he had been a close friend of the father of my second mother. The two of them had a hobby: they didn't go by a clock, but by a chronometer, and when they met at two o'clock, whoever arrived first would take his chronometer

Open page image and German
Page 708 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 708 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

volle Brieftasche und nun kommt er zu mir, und bringt mir eine Frauensperson mit, eine junge nette Frauensperson mit, und nachdem wir uns begrüßt hatten, sagt er zu mir, das ist Deine Cousine, ihr kennt euch nicht. Daraufhin nehme ich meine Cousine in den Arm und dann sagt er zu mir, weißt Du, daß ist die Tochter aus meiner ersten Ehe, und Du weißt oder auch nicht, daß die Tante Dor… eine Jüdin war, nämlich die Tochter eine czechischen Zuckerindustriellen, und die hatte er als er sein Studium als Jurist beendet hatte, geheiratet und ich weiß noch von meiner alten Dame, daß er damals gesagt hat, ich kann Dir nicht mehr bringen, als diesen Strauß roter Rosen, Geld habe ich nicht, das Geld hast Du – obwohl er auch nicht unvermögend war, aber im gegensatz zu dieser reichen Famili… natürlich arme Kirchenmäuse. Und so habe ich meine angeheiratete Cousine, in der Uniform eines Oberstbaf in meiner Dienststelle in der Kurfürstenstraße und obwohl ich nun wußte wer sie war, trotzdem beim Verabschieden abgebusselt, der Zweck des Kommens meines Onkels war, daß ich ihr eine Ausreise in die Schweiz gestatte, damit sie die Grenzübergangsstellen frei passieren kann. Ja, da habe ich in meinem Sinn gedacht, Gott sei Dank, es ist ein Mischling. Meine persönl. Stellungnahme zum Mischling war immer sehr possitiv gewesen, weil ich mir sagte, ein Mischling wird blutsmäßig immer besser, freilich wenn er ins Ausland ging, dann konnte er auch im negativen Sinn, nach den Nürnberggesetzen, nämlich wieder Volljude werden. – Aber es war ja dann Ausland und ich war nicht dafür verantwortlich. – Und weil ich nun auch so possitiv dachte, sagte ich zu meinem Onkel und zu meiner wirklich bildhübschen Coisine, na, das werden wir schon irgendwie schaukeln… Am Abend wurde ich dann von meinem Onkel in dem Hotel in dem er logierte, gebeten sein Gast zu sein, und wir tranken dort einige Flaschen Wein und sein Teechterlein war dabei gewesen, und wir unterhielten uns und waren guter Dinge und sie rauschte dann in die Schweiz ab. – An dem Abend sagte er mir, weißt Du, meine Mutter, er meinte damit meine Großtante Olga ist untröstlich, denn sein ältester Bruder, er war Prof an der Univ. in Wien, litt an Verfolgungswahn und war in dem Martinsstift bei Linz untergebracht, wo eine ev. Innenmission zentrale war, unter dem Rektor Saul, – dieser Rektor Saul spielte in unserem Familienleben eine große Rolle, denn jedesmal wenn er über Linz kam, logierte er bei uns als unser Gast, weil nämlich mein Vater seine 2. Frau in Gallertkirchen kennenlernte, wo sie mit ihrem alten Vater alljährlich von Wien zur Sommerfrische kam. und dieser Rektor Saul, hat auf die Frage meines Vaters ob er nicht eine nette Frau wüßte als Mutter für seine Kinder, dieses Frau genannt, – und diese Familie Heimmerle hatte dieser inneren Missionszentrale, die ein Mutterhaus für Diakonissinnen hatte, die ein Altersheim hatten, … geheißen, wo alte Leute sich einkaufen konnten, um dort ihren Lebensabend zu verbringen, wo u.a. ein gewisser Dir. … saß mit seiner Wirtschafterin, die sich auch dort einkauften, der jahrelang Direktor gewesen war von der Dresdner Straßenbahn und Elek. Gesell. gewesen war, und der ein enger Freund des Vaters meiner 2. Mutter gewesen war, die beide ein Hobby hatten indem sie sich nicht nach der Uhr richteten, sondern nach einem Kronometer, und wenn sie sich um 2 Uhr trafen, so hat derjenige der zuerst kam seinen Kronometer

Draft translation

2 Volume 6 [HW: 708] full wallet and now he comes to me, and brings a female person along with him, a young nice female person, and after we had greeted each other, he says to me, this is your cousin, you don't know each other. Thereupon I take my cousin in my arm and then he says to me, do you know, that is the daughter from my first marriage, and you know or also not, that Aunt Dor.. .. was a Jewess, namely the daughter of a Czech sugar industrialist, and he had married her when he had finished his studies as a jurist, and I still know from my old lady, that he said back then, I cannot bring you more, than this bouquet of red roses, money I do not have, the money you have---- although he was also not without means, but in contrast to this rich family naturally poor church mice. And thus I have my cousin-by-marriage, in the uniform of an Oberstbaf in my office in the Kurfuerstenstrasse and although I now knew who she was, nevertheless upon parting kissed [her] goodbye, the purpose of my uncle's coming was, that I permit her an exit to Switzerland, so that she can pass through the border crossing points freely. [a], there I thought in my mind, thank God, it is a Mischling [half-breed/mixed-race person]. My personal position on the Mischling had always been very positive, because I said to myself, a Mischling becomes bloodwise always better, admittedly if he went abroad, then he could also in the negative sense, according to the Nuremberg laws, namely become a full Jew again.--- But it was then abroad and I was not responsible for it.--And because I now also thought so positively, I said to my uncle and to my really beautiful cousin, well, we will somehow manage that.... In the evening I was then asked by my uncle in the hotel in which he was lodging, to be his guest, and we drank there several bottles of wine and his little daughter had been present, and we conversed and were in good spirits and she then whisked off to Switzerland.- On that evening he said to me, do you know, my mother, [DEL: mitxdx] he meant by that my great-aunt Olga is inconsolable, for his eldest brother, he was Professor at the University in Vienna, suffered from persecution mania and was housed in the Martinsstift near Linz, where a Protestant Inner Mission was central, under Rector Saul, -- this Rector Saul played a great role in our family life, for every time when he came through Linz, he lodged with us as our guest, because namely my father met his 2nd wife in Gallertkirchen [Gallneukirchen?], where she came annually from Vienna to the summer retreat with her old father. and this Rector Saul, upon the question of my father whether he did not know a nice woman as mother for his children, named this woman,--- and this family Heimmerle had this inner mission central, which had a mother house for deaconesses, which had an old-age home, called, where old people could buy in, in order to spend there their twilight years, where among others a certain Dir.[ector] sat with his housekeeper, who also bought in there, who for years had been director of the Dresden tram and Elec.[tric] Compan[y], and who had been a close friend of the father of my 2nd mother, the two of whom had a hobby in that they did not orient themselves by the clock, but by a chronometer, and when they met at 2 o'clock, then the one who came first [had] his chronometer

out and wait through the seconds still left until two o'clock, and then he would knock very hard on the door, and then you could know, now it is two o'clock, and set your clock by it. And the father of my second mother broke off all the tips of the crescent rolls, because he had heard that they were licked, and he opened every door only with his elbow, because he feared bacteria being transmitted from the door handle. He did live to a great age, though, I believe close to 90, while his father reached 103.

So then my uncle said to me, great-aunt Olga is inconsolable, because you people gassed her son. And then I knew what I had been told in the Führer's Chancellery, namely that the idiots had all been gassed. And somehow I thought I had to display a sense of guilt, but I said nothing to him, only that I really did not believe it, to calm him down, and I was very glad that I had been able to make his daughter's departure for Switzerland possible.

When I came to Vienna in 193…, I was greatly courted by these relatives, and I also went there once with a government councillor (Regierungsrat) who was already a Sturmbannführer, and we spent a pleasant evening. The wife of the last, youngest brother was there too, the one who made those beautiful bags, and this woman later gave my wife one of those bags, which was worth a great deal. Its value was to a collector; it was Gobelin tapestry work, so a very precious gift to a connoisseur. And I thought to myself at the time, what do they want in return for this gift? But no requests came.

And now, after 1945, this man, whom I had helped so much, this man said when he saw my children, aha, so those are the children of that swine. And when I heard that, I said to myself, the time when we could bump these people off in the Third Reich is long past now, but if such a time should ever come again, then I don't know what position I am to take. But one thing I do know: I will bump off this Uncle Fritz with my own hand, because he said those words so loudly that my children could hear them, and they knew that they are the children of a criminal swine. That is the impression my children have from their childhood, and that is why I said to my wife, you know, one day I will kill this man personally.

I am telling you this so that you have a picture of my odd relations, where I was even involved in the Jewish family connections. The sister of this Uncle Fritz married an Austrian naval captain, an Alf von Herz, a half-Jew. I am telling you all this so that you see how I got into this Jewish clan and was stuck in it, how I was always being roped in, but how I had my guidelines and still had to remain an example to my own people,

Questioner

Did Müller know about these relations by marriage?

Eichmann

Yes, I told him that—I told Günther that too, and I made

Open page image and German
Page 709 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 709 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

gezogen und wartete nun noch diese Sekunden, die noch fehlten, bis 2 Uhr und dann klopfte er sehr hart an die Tür und dann konnte man wissen, jetzt ist 2 Uhr und die Uhr danach stellen. Und der Vater meiner 2. Mutter brach alle Ecken der Hörnehen ab, weil er hörte, daß sie abgeschleckt werden, und machte nur alle Türen mit dem Ellenbogen auf, weil er die Übertragung von Bakterien der Türklinke fürchtete. Er wurde allerdings auch sehr alt, ich glaube an die 90, während sein Vater 103 Jahre alt wurde. – Nun also sagte mir mein Onkel, die Großtante Olga ist untröstlich, denn ihr habt ihren Sohn vergast. Und da habe ich gewußt, was mir in der Kanzlei des Führers gesagt worden ist, nämlich, daß die Idioten alle vergast worden. Und da habe ich in mir irgendwie geglaubt ein Schuldbewußtsein an den Tag legen zu müssen, aber ich habe ihm nichts gesagt, sondern eben nur, daß ich es doch nicht glaube… um ihn zu beruhigen und ich war sehr froh gewesen, daß ich seine Tochter die Ausreise nach der Schweiz habe ermöglichen können. Als ich 193… nach Wien kam, wurde ich von diesen Verwandten sehr hoffiert und ich ging auch einmal mit einem Reg Rat hin, der bereits Stbaf war und wir verbrachten einen netten Abend, und da war auch die Frau des letzten, jüngsten Bruders gewesen, die die wunderschönen Taschen machte, und diese Frau hat meiner Frau später eine solche Tasche gegeben, die einen sehr großen Wert hatte. Es war ein Liebhaberwert, eine Gobelin Arbeit, also für Kenner ein sehr kostbares Geschenk. Und ich dachte damals innerlich, was wollen sie nun für dieses Geschenk als Gegenleistung, aber es kamen keine Bitten. – Und nun nach 1945 hat dieser Mann, dem ich ja nun viel geholfen habe, dieser Mann hat gesagt, als er meine Kinder gesehen hat, aha, das sind also die Kinder dieses Schweines. Und als ich das hörte, da habe ich mir gesagt, die Zeit, wo wir diese Leute umlegen konnten im dritten Reich, ist ja nun längst vorbei, aber wenn wieder mal eine Zeit kommen soll, dann weiß ich nicht welche Position ich einnehmen soll, eines aber weiß ich, daß ich diesen Onkel Fritz mit eigener Hand umlegen werde, denn er hat die Worte so laut gesagt, daß es meine Kinder hören konnten, und sie wußten, daß sie die Kinder eines verbrecherischen Schweines sind. Das ist der Kindheitseindruck meiner Kinder und deswegen habe ich gesagt zu meiner Frau, weißt Du, diesen Mann werde ich persönlich eines Tages umbringen. – Ich sage Ihnen nun das, damit Sie ein Bild haben von meiner komischen Verwandtschaft, wo ich sogar mit in die jüd. Versippung hineinspielte. – Die Schwester dieses Onkel Fritz hat einen österr. Kriegsmarinecapitän geheiratet, es war ein Alf von Herz, ein Halbjude. – Ich erzähle Ihnen das alles, damit Sie sehen wie ich in diese jüd. Sippschaft reinkam und drinstackte, wie man mich immer einspannte, wie ich aber meine Richtlinien hatte, und wo ich doch auch meinen Leuten ein Vorbild bleiben mußte, Hat Müller über diese angeheiratete Verwandtschaft Bescheid gewußt? Ja, das habe ich ihm gesagt – das habe ich auch Günter gesagt, daraus machte

Draft translation

3 Volume 6[?6?] drawn out and now waited these seconds that were still missing, until 2 o'clock, and then he knocked very hard on the door and then one could know, now it is 2 o'clock and set the clock accordingly. And the father of my 2nd mother broke off all the corners of the little rolls [Hörnchen], because he heard that they get licked off, and opened all doors only with his elbow, because he feared the transmission of bacteria from the door handle. He did, however, also become very old, I believe close to 90, while his father became 103 years old.--- Now then my uncle told me, great-aunt Olga is inconsolable, because you have gassed her son. And then I knew, [DEL: xxxxx] what had been said to me in the Chancellery of the Führer, namely, that the idiots had all been gassed. And then within myself I somehow believed I had to display a consciousness of guilt, but I said nothing to him, but rather only that I did not believe it after all.....in order to calm him, and I had been very glad that I was able to make possible his daughter's departure to Switzerland. When I came to Vienna in 193[?7?], I was greatly courted by these relatives and I also went there once with a Regierungsrat [Reg Rat] who was already a Stbaf [Sturmbannführer] and we spent a pleasant evening, and there was also the wife of the last, youngest brother, who made the wonderful bags, and this woman later gave my wife such a bag, which had a very great value. It was a collector's value [Liebhaberwert], a Gobelin work, thus for connoisseurs a very precious gift. And I thought at the time inwardly, what do they now want in return for this gift, but no requests came.--- And now after 1945 this man, whom I a[lso?] have now helped a great deal, this man said, when he saw my children, aha, so these are the children of this pig. And when I heard that, then I said to myself, the time when we could bump off [umlegen] these people in the Third Reich is a[lso?] now long past, but if a time should come again, then I do not know which position I should take, one thing however I know, that I will bump off this uncle Fritz with my own hand, for he said the words so loudly that my children could hear it, and they knew that they are the children of a criminal pig. That is the childhood impression of my children and that is why I said to my wife, you know, this man I will personally one day kill.-- I now tell you this, so that you have a picture of my strange kinship [Verwandtschaft], where I sgar [= sogar? even] played into the Jewish in-lawship [Versippung]. -- The sister of this uncle Fritz married an Austrian navy captain, it was an Alf von Herz, a half-Jew.---- I tell you all this, so that you see how I came into this Jewish clan [Sippschaft] and was stuck in it, how one always harnessed me in, how I however had my guidelines, and where I nevertheless also had to remain a model for my people, Did Müller know about this in-law kinship? Yes, that I told him---that I also told Günter, out of it made

no secret of it. I told Günther, I have just kissed a half-Jewess. And why not? It didn't make me a traitor to the Reich.

Questioner

Before you were taken into the Reich Security Main Office, or when you swore the Security Service oath, were you never given questionnaires? About that?

Eichmann

No—I came into the Reich Security Main Office, and when I had been in it a long time, we did have to fill out questionnaires once: the SS men back to 1…00 and the SS officers back to 1750. Before that you had to—I wasn't married yet at that point—get approval from the Race and … Main Office. But because I had already belonged to the SS for so-and-so long before the year such-and-such, and because I was already officially engaged in 1931 to the woman I wanted to marry, I no longer needed approval.

Even so, I told myself, it is important for the children we will have that we get this approval now, and so I applied for all the forms and sent them to my fiancée at the time and had her examined. Her family doctor was a Jew. He had to fill out the forms, put them in an envelope, and seal it. Neither my fiancée nor I saw this form. It was all very embarrassing for my fiancée, but she told herself, in this far-off Prussia there are a great many customs that are strange to us.

And so I passed this document on sealed, and I then received the marriage approval under number XY, and then I married. Later, two or three years later, I received the demand that we furnish proof of Aryan ancestry. That was at the time when many shot themselves and others were happy that they were not related to Jews by marriage. The Jewish family connections on my second mother's side didn't appear in the forms, because she was not related to me by blood, but I told Müller and Günther. They knew it, because I had told them, that's what can happen to a person.

Questioner

Good, now let's come back to Viktor Brack, who, in a letter

to the Reichsführer-SS, says among other things:

Questioner reads from Brack's letter to Himmler

among about 10 million European Jews, by my estimate there are 2 to 3 million men and women who are very fit for work.

Questioner

So he means that these Jews who are fit for work should be taken out and sterilized. But not as it is normally done with the hereditarily ill, because that is [?] too time-consuming and costly; instead, castration by X-rays. The practical proposal is that the people should be summoned to an office, and the people should, behind the counter where an X-ray apparatus is supposed to be hidden, in this way…

Questioner reads from Brack's letter to Himmler

2 to 3 minutes are enough to carry out the sterilization with this apparatus.

Eichmann

Have I never heard anything about that?

Questioner

Of a Dr. Siegmund Rascher? The one who carried the experiments on animal warmth

Open page image and German
Page 710 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 710 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

ich keinen Hehl, ich habe Günter gesagt, jetzt habe ich gerade eine Halbjüdin geküßt. Warum denn auch nicht, ich wurde dadurch zu keinem Reichsverräter. – Bevor Sie nun in das RSHA übernommen wurde oder wie Sie den SD Eid geleistet haben sind Ihnen da nie Fragebogen vorgelegt worden? Bzgl. dessen? Nein – ich kam in das RSHA, und als ich lange drin war, da mußten wir dann einmal Fragebogen ausfüllen, und zwar die SS Männer bis 1 00 und die SS Führe… bis 1750, vordem mußte man, ich war da noch nicht verheiratet, eine Genehmigung des Rasse und … HA haben, weil ich aber schon soundsolange vor dem Jahr soundsoviel der SS angehörte, und weil ich bereits im Jahr 1931 offiziell verlobt war, der derjenigen die ich heiraten wollte, habe ich keine Genehmigung mehr gebraucht und trotzdem habe ich mir gesagt, es ist wichtig für unsere Kinder, die da kommen werden, wenn wir uns jetzt diese Genehmigung geben, und da habe ich die ganzen Formformulare beantragt, und habe sie meiner damaligen Braut geschickt und habe sie damals untersuchen lassen, ihr Hausarzt war ein Jude gewesen, er mußte die Formulare ausfüllen und in ein Couvert stecken und zukleben, weder meine Braut noch ich haben dieses Formular gesehen – meiner Braut war das alles sehr peinlich gewesen, aber sie hat sich gesagt, in diesem fernen Preußen gibt es sehr viele Bräuche, die uns fremd sind. – Und ich habe also diesen Bescheid geschlossen weitergegeben und ich bekam dann den Ehebescheid unter der Nur XY, und habe dann geheiratet und später bekam ich dann die Aufforderung, 2 od 3 Jahre später, daß wir den Ariernachweis zu erbringen hätten, es war zu der Zeit, wo sich viele erschossen und wieder wo andere glücklich waren, daß sie nicht jüdisch versippt waren, – die jüd. Versippung von seiten meiner 2. Mutter erschien ja nicht in den Formularen, weil sie ja blutsmäßig nichts mit mir zu tun gehabt hat, aber ich habe es Müller und Günter gesagt, die wußten es, weil ich ihnen gesagt habe, so kann es einem Menschen ergehen. Gut, jetzt kommen wir also auf den Viktor Brack, zurück, der in einem Brief sch… an den RF u.a., bei ca 10 Mill europäischen Juden, sind nach meinem Gefühl 2 bis 3 Mill sehr gut arbeitsfähige Männer und Frauen enthalten. – Er meint also nun, daß diese arbeitsfähigen Juden herausgezogen werden müßten und man eine Steril. durchführen müßte. Aber nicht wie normalerweise bei Erbkranken, weil die zu zeitraubend und kostspielig ietp sondern eine Röntgenkastration. Der praktische Vorschlag dazu, die Leute sollen auf einer Dienststelle vorgeladen werden und die Leute sollen hinter dem Schalter, wo eine Röntgenanlage verborgen sein soll, eben auf diese Art und Weise… 2 bis 3 Min genügen, um durch diese Anlage, die Steril durchzuführen. Habe ich nie etwas davon gehört? Von einem Dr. Siegmund Rascher? Der die Versuche über animalische Wärme durch

Draft translation

4 Volume 67 [HW: 710] I make no secret of it, I told Guenter, just now I kissed a half-Jewess. And why not, that did not make me a traitor to the Reich.---- Before you were now taken into the RSHA or how you swore the SD oath, were questionnaires never presented to you there? Regarding that? No----I came into the RSHA, and when I had been in it for a long time, then we had to fill out questionnaires once, namely the SS men up to 1[0]00 and the SS leaders up to 1750; before that one had to, I was not yet married at the time, have a permit from the Race and [Settlement] Main Office, but because I had already belonged to the SS for so-and-so long before the year so-and-so many, and because I was already officially engaged in the year 1931, to the one whom I wanted to marry, I no longer needed a permit and nevertheless I told myself, it is important for our children, who will come, if we now obtain this permit for ourselves, and so I applied for all the forms, and sent them to my then fiancée and had her examined at that time, her family doctor had been a Jew, he had to fill out the forms and put them in an envelope and seal it shut, neither my fiancée nor I saw this form---for my fiancée this had all been very embarrassing, but she told herself, in this faraway Prussia there are very many customs that are foreign to us,.- And so I passed on this notice sealed and I then received the marriage notice under the No. XY, and then got married and later I then received the demand, 2 or 3 years later, that we would have to furnish the Aryan certificate, it was at the time when many shot themselves and again where others were happy that they were not Jewishly related,--the Jewish relationship on the side of my 2nd mother did not appear in the forms, because she had after all nothing to do with me by blood, but I told Mueller and Guenter, they knew it, because I told them, that is how it can go for a person. Good, now we thus come back to Viktor Brack, who in a letter wr[ote] to the RF among other things, with ca. 10 million European Jews, according to my feeling 2 to 3 million very well work-capable men and women are contained.- He thus now means that these work-capable Jews would have to be pulled out and one would have to carry out a steril[ization]. But not as normally with the hereditarily ill, because those are too time-consuming and costly [?ietp?] but rather an X-ray castration. The practical proposal for this, the people are to be summoned to an office and the people are to, behind the counter, where an X-ray installation is supposed to be concealed, precisely in this manner........ 2 to 3 min. suffice, to carry out the sterilization by means of this installation. Have I never heard anything of this? Of a Dr. Siegm[und] Rascher? Who [carried out] the experiments on animal warmth through

Questioner

out?

No, not known to me…

Questioner

And in all these matters Obersturmbannführer Sievers appears, and also SS-Obergruppenführer Wolff, with Field Marshal Milch. Then SS-Gruppenführer Dr. Grawitz.

Eichmann

Yes, I know of him; he was the kneecap specialist, wasn't he?

Questioner

Then various cases are described there, experiments—with blankets at first, then they try with 2 women to get faster warming.

Questioner reads from Rascher's reports to Himmler

But with 2 women it didn't work, because it took much longer than with one woman, since she nestles more closely against the chilled man, and besides, the personal inhibitions fall away. Then it was established that with K… the return of complete physical well-being is fastest, although the best of all still remains the massive supply of heat through a hot full bath.

Questioner

And then here is a report from Dr. Rascher to the Reichsführer-SS, saying that 4 women had been brought to him and that one woman bore unmistakably Nordic racial features, and then she was in fact released afterwards; there must have been some mistake. Then here is a letter from Dr. Oskar Schroeder, chief of the Luftwaffe medical service, to Himmler, in which he gives his thanks, as Professor Hippke also gives his thanks, for the experiments that were carried out…

Then we have here something from Leo Baeck, the chief rabbi, who states that in Germany the human feeling of solidarity was characteristic above all of 2 poles of society: the old aristocracy on the one hand and organized labor on the other. Those would have been the ones most on the side of the Jews, and so on…

Now another matter—Finland? Was anything ever initiated there by IV B 4, any suggestion…

Eichmann

No, never.

Questioner

Were you also unaware that 1 Finnish officers, who, since they were together with German troops, in some cases also had command over those troops, that 19 Finnish Jews were senior officers in the Finnish armed forces?

Eichmann

Oh, no, I don't know that.

Questioner

Are you aware that the two metropolitans who were not friendly to Jews, in Romania, …, saved whole Jewish communities from destruction by interceding with Marshal Antonescu on their behalf?

Eichmann

No, that is not known to me.

Open page image and German
Page 711 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 711 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

durchgeführt hat? Nein, nicht bekannt… Und bei all diesen Sachen tritt in Erscheinung Ostbaf. Sievers und auch SS Obergruppenf. Wolf. mit dem Generalsfeldmarschall Milch. Dann der SS Grf. Dr. Grawitz Ja, ist mir bekannt, der war doch der Kniescheibenspezialist nicht wahr? Dann wird da von verschied. Fällen erzählt, von Versuchen – mit Decken zunächst, dann versucht man mit 2 Frauen die schnellere Wärmung zu bekommen, – aber mit 2 Frauen ging es nicht, denn die Zeit dauerte viel länger als mit einer Frau, weil die sich inniger an den Ausgekühlten anschmiegt, und außerdem die persönlichen Hemmungen wegfallen und dann wurde festgestellt daß beim K… die Wiederkehr der völligen körperlichen Wohlbefindens am schnellsten ist, wo allerdings noch am allerbesten bleibt, die massive Wärmezufuhr durch ein heißes Vollbad. – Und dann hier einen Bericht von Dr. Rascher an den RF, daß er hier 4 Frauen zugeführt bekommen habe und daß eine Frau einwandfrei nordische Rassezüge trüge und dann ist die nachher auch tatsächli… entlassen worden, es muß irgendein Irrtum gewesen sein. Dann ist hier ein Brief des Dr. Oskar Schr[unleserlich]eger, Chef des Sanitätswesen der Luftwaffe an Himmler, wobei er sich bedankt, wie ebenfalls Prof. Hippke sich bedankt, für die Versuche die durchgeführt wurden… Dann haben wir hier eine Sache von Leo Beck, dem Großrabbiner, der feststellt daß in Deutschland das menschliche Solidaritätsgefühl vor allem für 2 Pole der Gesellschaft charakteristisch war, für die alte Aristokratie einerseits und für die organisierte Arbeiterschaft andererseits. Das wären diejenigen gewesen die am meisten für die Juden usw… Nun noch eine andere Sache – Finnland? Ist da nie von IV B 4 etwas eingeleitet worden irgendeine Suggestion,… Nein, nie Ist Ihnen auch nicht bekannt gewesen, daß 1 finnische Offiziere, die ja zT, da sie mit deutschen Truppen zusammen waren, auch über diese Befehlsgewalt hatten, 19 finnische Juden höhere Offiziere in der finnischen Wehrmacht waren? So, nein, weiß ich nicht. Ist Ihnen bekannt, daß die beiden nicht judenfreundlichen Metropoliten, in Rumänien, …, ganze jüd. Gemeinden vor dem Untergang retteten, indem sie bei Marschall Antonesku zu deren Gunsten interveniere… Nein, ist mir nicht bekannt

Draft translation

5 Volume 66 [HW: 67] [HW: 711] carried out? No, not known.... And in all these matters there appears Ostbaf. [Obersturmbannführer] Sievers and also SS Obergruppenf. [Obergruppenführer] Wolff. with the Field Marshal General Milch. Then the SS Grf. [Gruppenführer] Dr. Grawitz Yes, is known to me, he was after all the kneecap specialist, was he not? Then there is told there of various cases, of experiments----- with blankets at first, then one tries with 2 women to obtain the faster warming, --but with 2 women it did not work, for the time lasted much longer than with one woman, because she nestles more intimately against the chilled-down one, and besides the personal inhibitions fall away and then it was established that in the case of K.......... the return of the complete physical well-being is fastest, where however still best of all remains, the massive heat supply through a hot full bath.----And then here a report from Dr. Rascher to the RF [Reichsführer], that he had here 4 women brought/supplied to him and that one woman irreproachably bore Nordic racial features and then she was afterwards indeed actual[ly] released, it must have been some kind of error. Then here is a letter from Dr. Oskar Schrueger, Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe to Himmler, wherein he gives thanks, as likewise Prof. Hippke gives thanks, for the experiments that were carried out... Then we have here a matter of Leo Beck, the Chief Rabbi, who establishes that in Germany the human sense of solidarity was above all characteristic of 2 poles of society, of the old aristocracy on the one hand and of the organized workforce on the other. Those would have been the ones who did the most for the Jews etc........ . Now yet another matter--Finland? Was there never anything initiated by IV B 4, some suggestion,...... No, never Was it also not known to you, that 1 Finnish officers, who indeed in part, since they were together with German troops, also had this authority to command, 18 Finnish Jews were higher officers in the Finnish Wehrmacht? So, no, I do not know [that]. Is it known to you, that the two not-Jew-friendly metropolitans, in Romania, , saved whole Jewish communities from downfall/ destruction, in that they intervened with Marshal Antonescu fx to their benefit No, is not known to me

Questioner

Foreign Minister Witting, the Finnish foreign minister, declared publicly during the war:

Questioner reads from Witting's public statement

Finland is a decent nation; we would rather perish together with the Jews; we will never hand Jews over…

I had no idea that such a demand had ever been made.

Questioner

You surely know that a large part of the Finnish politicians who founded the republic at that time were Social Democrats?

Eichmann

Yes.

Questioner

Just as they had an American embassy in Finland right up to the end of the war, although it was said countless times that it was a network of espionage, and so on. The Finns also refused the Germans any armed assistance in August 1942 for the attack on Leningrad. And just as the Finns had Jewish soldiers and officers, including staff doctors whom our German soldiers had to salute, these Jews were also soldiers in the Finnish army and fought on the side of the Germans.

Eichmann

Well, what am I supposed to say to that? A louse that bites you, I don't crush, but if it bites me, then yes. They were somehow too far away from us. The Jews did not concern us, and numerically they were of no interest either.

Questioner

On your visit to Copenhagen you will surely have spoken with Rudolf Münzer, the head of the Security Police?

Eichmann

No, his name is Mildner; he had been the commander of the Security Police in Copenhagen.

Questioner

He testified before the Nuremberg tribunal?

Eichmann

No, he was never even taken prisoner.

Questioner

He is supposed to have testified at the Nuremberg tribunal—that Best's conduct contributed a great deal to the Danish Jews being saved by the underground movement.

Eichmann

That is a mystery to me. Mildner is missing. He was never in Nuremberg.

Questioner

Are you aware that Wallenberg had a guard of young Jews whom he even put into SS uniforms?

Eichmann

No, I do not know that, but I would think the man capable of it.

Questioner

Did you ever speak with him?

Eichmann

No, I left that to Krumey. I let him act freely as he saw fit and did not concern myself with it. It is possible that Krumey negotiated with him ….

Open page image and German
Page 712 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 712 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Außenminist Witting, der finnische Außenminist, hat also öffentlich erklärt während des Kriegs; Finland ist eine anständige Nation, lieber gehe… wir mit den Juden zu Grunde, wir werden niemals Juden ausliefern… Ich wüßt gar nicht, daß ein solches Verlangen je gestellt worden wäre. Sie wissen sicher daß ein Großteil der finnischen Politiker, die damals die Republik gegründet haben, Sozialdemakraten waren? Ja, Genauso wie sie bis zum Kriegsende eine amerikanische Botschaft in Finnland hatten obwohl x-mal gesagt worden ist, es sei ein Netz von Spionage usw… Auch haben die Finnen jede Waffenhilfe den Deutschen im Aug 42 beim Angriffs au… Leningrad abgesagt. – Und genau so wie die Finnen jüd. Soldaten und Offiziere hatten, auch Stabsärz… vor denen unsre deutsche Soldaten saludieren mußten, genauso aber waren diese Juden ja Soldaten in der finnischen Armee und kämpften auf der Seite der Deuts… Nun was soll ich dazu sagen, eine Laus die Sie zwickt, die zerquetsche ich nich… aber wenn sie mich zwickt, dann ja. – die saßen uns irgendwie zu weit weg. Die Juden haben uns nicht gekümmert, sie waren auch zahlenmäßig uninteressan… Bei Ihrem Besuch in Copenhagen werden Sie doch sicher mit Rudolf Münzer gespro… haben, Chef der Sipo? Nein, der heißt Mildner, der war der Bef. der Sipo gewesen in Copenhagen Der hat vor dem Nürnberger Gerichtshof ausgesagt? Nein, der wurde gar nicht gefangen genommen Der soll beim Nürnberger Gerichtshof ausgesagt haben – daß Best s Verhalten vi… dazu beigetragen hat, daß die dänischen Juden durch die Untergrundbewegung gerettet werden konnten Das ist mir schleierhaft – Mildner ist verschollen. War nie in Nürnberg. Ist Ihnen bekannt, daß der Wallenberg eine junge Judengarde hatte, die er soga… in SS Uniform gesteckt hat? Nein, – das weiß ich nicht, aber zu zutrauen wäre es dem Mann. Haben Sie je mit ihm gesprochen? Nein, das überließ ich Gromeid, ich ließ ihn frei schalten und walten und ha… mich nicht darum gekümmert, es ist möglich, daß Gromeid mit ihm verhandelt h…

Draft translation

6 Volume 67 [HW: 212] Foreign Minister Witting, the Finnish Foreign Minister, thus publicly de- clared during the war; Finland is a decent nation, we would rather perish together with the Jews, we will never surrender Jews... I did not know at all that such a demand had ever been made. You surely know that a large part of the Finnish politicians who founded the Republic at that time were Social Democrats? Yes, Just as they had an American embassy in Finland until the end of the war although it was said x-times that it was a network of espionage etc.... The Finns also refused the Germans any weapons assistance in Aug 42 in the attack on Leningrad.--- And just as the Finns had Jewish soldiers and officers, also staff physicians before whom our German soldiers had to salute, so were these Jews soldiers in the Finnish army and fought on the side of the Germa[ns] Now what am I to say to that, a louse that pinches you, that one I do not squash but when it pinches me, then yes.--- they sat somehow too far away from us. The Jews did not concern us, they were also numerically uninterestin[g] During your visit to Copenhagen you surely spoke with Rudolf Muenzer, chief of the Sipo? No, his name is Mildner, he was the Comm. [TS INS: of the Sipo] in Copenhagen He testified before the Nuremberg court? No, he was not captured at all He is supposed to have testified at the Nuremberg court--that Best's conduct much contributed to the fact that the Danish Jews could be saved through the underground movement That is a mystery to me----- Mildner is missing/lost. Was never in Nuremberg. Are you aware that Wallenberg had a young Jewish guard, which he even put into SS uniform? No,-that I do not know, but it would be credible of the man. Did you ever speak with him? No, that I left to Gromeid, I let him operate freely and did not concern myself with it, it is possible that Gromeid negotiated with hi[m]

For Krumey was used to running offices himself, and he made vigorous use of that here as well. In individual cases he made the decisions 100 percent on his own, and I did not concern myself with it. He also involved himself in matters of principle and decided them, until one day I told him, well, that won't do; you have no executive powers, you are only seconded.

Questioner

Then it goes on here about Wallenberg:

Questioner reads aloud

he obtained uniforms from deserters, weapons, and ammunition. A special squad consisting exclusively of Aryan-looking young Jews even appeared in SS uniforms and staged raids in Hungarian prisons to free Jews there.

Eichmann

I never heard of such operations, but then I did not necessarily have to hear of them, because it was a Hungarian matter.

Questioner

Are you aware that at the change of regime in Hungary on 15 October 1944, that … was removed, or rather replaced by General …, and where, when the German counterstroke then came and … took over the government, whether the government forbade the Jews to leave their homes for 10 days?

Eichmann

I do not know that.

Questioner

Are you aware that the wife of the Hungarian foreign minister… was a Jewess? And worked together with Wallenberg…

Eichmann

No—there I can only think of the words of Wi…, who said to me, everything here is related to Jews by marriage, and that is a task that particularly appeals to me, to push my way in here.

Questioner

It seems that Wallenberg and other states pulled some rather odd tricks, which were, however, permitted by Sa…, because he had an interest in being recognized by the neutral states.

Questioner reads aloud

But now the Germans struck, although the Russian had already cut the connection with Poland. Eichmann, the lord of the gas chambers, proposed a march on foot to death. In icy cold, 10,000 now marched 240 kilometers to death; corpses lined their way. Wallenberg drove after those doomed to die and was able to free 4,000 of his ship…. For the other unfortunates he obtained, together with the Red Cross and the other neutral nations, truckloads of food, warm clothing, and medicines, which were handed out to those marching on. The Catholic Church also took part in this operation.

Eichmann

To that I have to say that the whole provisioning for the march, equipment, and so on was not the task of my office, but was worked out by the operations department of the Hungarian gendarmerie. Second, where and how the Hungarian gendarmerie obtained the supplies,

Open page image and German
Page 713 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 713 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Denn Gromeid war gewöhnt selbst Dienststellen zu leiten und hat auch hier rege… davon Gebrauch gemacht. In Einzelfällen hat er 100% allein entschieden, da habe ich mich nicht darum gekümmert. Auch in grundsätzl. Dinge hat er sich mit eingeschaltet und auch entschieden, bis ich ihm eines Tages sagte, ja – das geht nicht, Du hast keine exek. Befugnisse, Du bist nur kommandiert. Dann heißt es hier weiter von Wallenberg, – er beschaffte sich Uniformen von Deserteuren, Waffen und Munition. Ein Sondertrupp, ausschließl. arisch aussehende junge Juden erschienen sogar in SS Uniformen und veranstaltete Razzie… in ung. Gefängnissen, um dort Juden zu befreien. Von solchen Aktionen habe ich nie gehört – aber ich mußte ja auch nicht unbedin… davon hören, denn es war eine ungar. Angelegenheit. Ist Ihnen bekannt, daß bei dem Umschwung in Ungarn am 15 Okt. 44, daß…(?) … abgesetzt wurde, bzw. von General … ersetzt, und wo alsdann der deutsche Gegenschlag kam und … die Regierung übernahm, ob da von der Regierung aus den Juden verboten wurde, 10 Tage lange ihre Wohnung zu verlassen? Das weiß ich nicht – Ist Ihnen bekannt, daß die Frau des ung. Außenminist… Jüdin war? und mit Wallenberg zusammen arbeitete… Nein – da muß ich nur an die Worte von Wi… denken, der mir sagte, hier ist alles jüdisch versippt. und das ist eine Aufgabe, die mich besonders reizt, um hier herein zu stoßen. Es scheint so, daß Wallenberg und andere Staaten ziemlich komische Sachen gedreht haben, die aber von Sa… zugelassen wurden, weil er Interesse hatte, von den neutralen Staaten anerkannt zu werden. – Die Deutschen schlugen aber nun zu, obwohl der Russe die Verbindung mit Polen schon unterbrochen hatte – Eichmann, der Herr der Gaskammern, schlug einen Fußmars… in den Tod vor, bei eisiger Kälte zogen 10 000 nun 240 km in den Tod, Leichen säumten ihren Weg, Wallenberg fuhr den Todgeweihten nach, und konnte 4 000 seiner Schiffs… befreien. Für die anderen Unglücklichen besorgte er im Verein mit dem RK und den anderen neutralen Nationen, Lastzüge mit Lebensmitt… warme Kleidung und Medikamente, die man an die Weitermarschierenden verteilte. Auch die kath. Kirche beteiligte sich an dieser Aktion. Dazu muß ich sagen, daß die ganze Marschverpflegung, Ausrüstung usw, nicht Aufgabe meiner Dienststelle war, sondern daß das die Operationsabteilung der ung. Gend. ausgearbeitet hat. 2. Woher und wie sich die ungar. gend. die Versorgu… besorgte,

Draft translation

7 Volume 67 [HW: 713] For Gromeid was accustomed to leading service offices himself and here too made active use of that. In individual cases he decided 100% on his own, I did not concern myself about that. Also in matters of principle he involved himself and also decided, until one day I said to him, yes— that won't do, you have no executive powers, you are only seconded/assigned. Then it says further here about Wallenberg, — he procured for himself uniforms from deserters, weapons and ammunition. A special squad, exclusively Aryan-looking young Jews even appeared in SS uniforms and staged a raid in Hungarian prisons, in order to free Jews there. Of such actions I never heard— but I also did not necessarily have to hear of it, for it was a Hungarian matter. Is it known to you, that at the upheaval in Hungary on 15 Oct. 44, that..(?) ... .... .. was deposed, or rather replaced by General , and where then when the German counterblow came and took over the government, whether from the government's side the Jews were forbidden to leave their apartment for 10 days long? That I do not know---- Is it known to you, that the wife of the Hungarian foreign minist.... was Jewish? and worked together with Wallenberg... No---- there I must only think of the words of Wi....., who said to me, here everything is Jewishly kin-tangled/interrelated. and that is a task that particularly appeals to me, to thrust in here. It seems so, that Wallenberg and other states pulled off rather odd things, which however were permitted by Sa... , because he had an interest in being recognized by the neutral states.-- The Germans however now struck, although the Russian had already cut the connection with Poland—Eichmann, the lord of the gas chambers, proposed a foot-march into death, in icy cold 10,000 now moved 240 km into death, corpses lined their way, Wallenberg drove after those doomed to death, and was able to free 4,000 of his ship........ For the other unfortunate ones he procured, in association with the RK [Red Cross] and the other neutral nations, freight trains with foodstuff[s], warm clothing and medicines, which were distributed to those marching onward. The Catholic Church too took part in this action. To this I must say, that the whole march-provisioning, equipment etc, was not the task of my service office, but rather that the operations department of the Hungarian gendarmerie worked that out. 2. From where and how the Hungarian gendarmerie procured the supply,

that was not my task. Fine, if they gave Wallenberg a free hand here, then it was Wallenberg. If they had a procurement officer for it, then it may have been his task; I don't know that. The roads were by no means lined with Jews, because these Jews were positively expected as welcome additional labor for the hard-toiling Lower Austrian population, to dig anti-tank ditches shovel alongside shovel with that population, against the expected offensive of the 2nd Ukrainian Front. Third, I have to stress for the umpteenth time that members of the Security Police and Security Service should not be connected with the gas chambers, not even causally; that was not the task of the Security Police and Security Service.

Questioner

Then a heroine of the resistance is mentioned here, Alice Ku., who published her memories of captivity under the title “Friend of the Jews”.

[Commentary and discussion of the book, but not of further importance.]

Then something more is written here about Dannecker, concerning those people who wore this Jewish star out of Pro…. Now I would like to know from you: R. Bernhard Lichtenberg?

Eichmann

Not known to me.

Questioner

He was arrested because he spoke out against incitement against the Jews in his sermons…

Eichmann

Not by me.

Questioner

And when the cathedral provost was led away, the Gestapo forced him… That was the cathedral provost of Berlin.

Eichmann

Yes, that was the State Police headquarters in Berlin. Several parsons (Pfaffen) came to Dachau; we did indeed have a whole camp for parsons there. On the orders of the Reichsführer-SS they were also treated properly ….

Questioner

Then,

Questioner reads aloud

in the middle of October 1941, the cathedral provost Lichtenberg found an NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers’ Party) leaflet on his desk. It was thoroughly vile, murderous incitement against the Jews, claiming among other things that the American Jew Theoder Nathan Kaufmann, as spokesman of world Jewry, had openly called for the extermination of 90 million culturally advanced, industrious, decent German women, men, and children.

Eichmann

Yes, I remember the name Kaufmann. In this connection I come back to a dispute we had, where you showed my argument to be absurd with the Morgentau Plan, which after all was only a plan. And now I have to tell you the following: here too I became the victim of forgetfulness. Of course I did not mean Morgenthau with his nation of herdsmen at the time, but the extermination plan of a Kaufmann; that was it. And in what year was that?

Open page image and German
Page 714 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 714 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

das war nicht meine Aufgabe, gut, wenn sie hier Wallenberg freie Hand ließen, war es eben Wallenberg – wenn sie dazu einen Beschaffungsoffizier gehabt haben, so mag es dessen Aufgabe gewesen sein, das wiss ich nicht – Die straßen wurden keinesfalls gesäumt von Juden, denn die se Juden wurden ja als willkommene und zusätzliche Arbeitskräfte für die schwerschuftente nieder-österr. Bevölkerung geradezu erwartet, daß sie mit dieser Bevölkerung Schaufel an Schaufel Panzergräben auswerfen sollten, gegen die zu erwartende Offensive der 2. ukrainischen Front. 3. muß ich zum wiederholtesten Mal betonen, daß man die Angeh der Sipo und SD nicht, mit den Gaskammern zusammen bringt, auch nicht im ursächlichsten, das w… nicht die Aufgabe von der Sipo und SD. – Dann wird hier erwähnt, eine Heldin des Widerstandes Alice Ku. die ihre Erinnerungen an die Gefangenschaft unter Titel "Judenfreund" veröffen… lichte. (Kommentar und Ausführung über das Buch, aber nicht weiter wesentlich) Dann wird noch einiges hier über Dannecker geschrieben, bzgl dieser Leute, die diesen Judenstern also aus Pro… getragen haben. Nun möchte ich von Ihnen wissen, R. Bernhard Lichtenberg? Mir nicht bekannt – Der ist verhaftet worden, weil er in seinen Predigten gegen die Judenhetze auftrat… Nicht von mir Und als der Domprobst abgeführt wurde, zwang ihn die Gestapo… Das war der Domprobst von Berlin Ja, das war die Stapo Leit in Berlin gewesen, es sind mehrere Paffen nach Dachau gekommen, dort hatten wir ja ein ganzes Pfaffenlager gehabt. Die wurden auf Befehl des RF auch ordentlich amtlax behandelt. – Dann – Mitte Okt 41 hatte der Domprobst Lichtenberg auf seinem Schreibtisch ein Flugblatt vorgefunden, der NSDAP, es handelte sich um eine ganz üble, mörderis… Hetze gegen die Juden, wobei unter anderem behauptet wurde, der amerikanische Jude, Theoder Nathan Kaufmann, habe als Sprecher des Weltjudentums offen die Forderung auf Ausrottung von 90 Mill kulturell hochstehender und fleißiger anständiger deutscher Frauen, Männer und Kinder erhoben. Ja, ich erinnere mich an den Namen Kaufmann – in Verbindung komme ich auf eine Disbut den wir hatten und wo Sie mich adabsurdum führten mit dem Morgentauplan der ja nur ein Plan war, – und nun muß ich Ihnen folgendes sagen, auch hier wurde ich das Opfer der Vergeßlichkeit – natürlich meinte ich damals nicht Morgenthau mit seinem Hirtenvolk, sondern den Ausrottungsplan eines Kaufmanns das war es, und in welchem Jahr war das gewesen?

Draft translation

8 Volume 67 [HW: 714] that was not my task, fine, if they let Wallenberg have a free hand here, then it was just Wallenberg--if they had a procurement officer for that, then it may have been his task, that I do not know------ The streets were by no means lined with Jews, for these Jews were indeed awaited practically as welcome and additional labor for the hard-toiling Lower Austrian population, that they were, together with this population, shovel by shovel, to throw up anti-tank ditches, against the to-be-expected offensive of the 2nd Ukrainian Front. 3. I must emphasize for the most repeated time, that one does not bring the members of the Sipo and SD together with the gas chambers, not even in the most causal [respect], that was not the task of the Sipo and SD.---- Then here is mentioned, a heroine of the resistance Alice Ku. who published her memories of imprisonment under the title "Friend of the Jews". (Commentary and elaboration about the book, but not further essential) Then a few more things are written here about Dannecker, regarding those people who carried this Jew-star out of Pro.. [protest?]. Now I would like to know from you, R. Bernhard Lichtenberg? Not known to me---- He was arrested because in his sermons he came out against the incitement against the Jews..... Not by me And when the cathedral provost was led away, the Gestapo forced him..... That was the cathedral provost of Berlin Yes, that was the Stapo [State Police] Headquarters in Berlin, several priests came to Dachau, there we had indeed a whole priest-camp. They were by order of the RF also properly [?officially?] treated.---- Then - mid-Oct 41 the cathedral provost Lichtenberg had found on his desk a leaflet, of the NSDAP, it concerned a quite vile, murderous incitement against the Jews, whereby among other things it was claimed, the American Jew, Theoder Nathan Kaufmann, had as spokesman of world Jewry openly raised the demand for the extermination of 80 million culturally high-standing and industrious decent German women, men and children. Yes, I remember the name Kaufmann---- in connection I come upon a dispute which we had and where you led me ad absurdum with the Morgentau plan which was indeed only a plan,----and now I must tell you the following, also here I became the victim of forgetfulness---of course I did not mean back then Morgenthau with his shepherd-people, but the extermination plan of a Kaufmann that was it, and in which year had that been?

Questioner

The plan arose roughly at the time when the order for physical extermination came. So it is not an exaggeration to say that this Kaufmann plan provoked that order.

Yes, at the time, in the discussion, it was not the Morgenthau Plan, but the Kaufmann plan that had appeared again for the first time after 1945; that was it. I said at the time, don't trip me up: whether the name was Eichmann, Morgenthau, or anything else, there had been something there that made me say to myself, right, now I must drop all my misgivings, because the whole world should bite the dust before my people do. I, the cautious bureaucrat. But I would like to add something to the ‘cautious bureaucrat’, to my own disadvantage.

Alongside this cautious bureaucrat stood a fanatical fighter for the freedom of my blood, from which I descend. And I say once again, the louse that bites you does not trouble me, but the louse that sits under my collar, that one does, and that holds for my people. What benefits my people is for me a sacred order and a sacred law. And now, in closing, I have to tell you: first, I regret nothing at all; I am not groveling in the slightest. In the four months in which we have recorded this whole matter, in which you took pains to refresh my memory, a great deal was refreshed.

Listen · Before the closing address · 0:24

Listen · The edited closing address · 8:06

It would be all too easy, and I could take the cheap way out, in line with today's opinion, by putting on an act of a Saul becoming a Paul. But I tell you, I cannot do that, because I am not prepared to, because my inner self resists saying that we had done something wrong. No, I have to tell you quite honestly: had we killed, out of the 10.3 million Jews whom Korherr recorded, as we now know, 10.3 million Jews, then I would be satisfied and would say, good, we have annihilated an enemy.

Now, since through the malice of fate a large part of these Jews have remained alive, I say to myself, fate willed it so; I have to submit to fate and to providence. We would have fulfilled our task for our blood, for our people, and for the freedom of the peoples, had we annihilated the shrewdest intellect of humanity living today. For that is what I have always said: we are fighting an opponent who is superior to us through many thousands of years of schooling. When it was, I no longer know, but even before the Romans established their state, before Rome was founded at all, the Jews here could write.

And when a people can look back on a written history of 6,000 years, a people that was already making laws five or six thousand years ago, and the churches today make use of that lawmaking, that is very depressing for me. But it tells me that this must be a people of the first rank, for lawgivers have always been great figures. And for these reasons I do fight this opponent, and for these reasons you have to understand me when I say, if 10.3 million of these opponents had been killed, then we would have fulfilled our task. But since that is not so, I will tell you,

Open page image and German
Page 715 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 715 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

Der Plan ist erstanden, ungefähr zu der Zeit wo der Befehl zur physischen Ausrottung gekommen ist – also es ist nicht übertrieben zu sagen, daß diese Kaufmännsche Plan diesen Befehl ausgelockt hat. – Ja, damals war es bei der Diskussion nicht der Morgenthauplan gewesen, sondern der erstmalig wieder nach 45 erschienene Kaufmännsche Plan, der war es. Ich sagte damals, führen Sie mich nicht aufs Glatteis, ob der nun Eichmann, Morgenth… oder sonst wie geheißen hat, es war da irgendetwas gewesen, wo ich mir sagte, gut, jetzt muß ich alle Bedenken fallen, denn bevor mein Volk ins Gras beißt, da soll eher die ganze Welt ins Gras beißen. – Ich, der vorsichtige Bürokrat. – Aber ich möchte den "vorsichtigen Bürokrat" etwas zu meinen Ungunsten erweitern zu diesem vorsichtigen Bürokrat gesellte sich ein fanatischer Kämpfer für die Freiheit meines Blutes, dem ich anstamme. – und ich sage nocheinmal, die Laus, die Sie zwickt, die stört mich nicht, aber die Laus, die unter meinem Kragen sitzt, die ja, und das gilt für mein Volk. Was meinem Volke nützt ist für mich heilig… Befehl und heiliges Gesetz. – Und nun zum Abschluß muß ich Ihnen sagen; 1. mich reut gar nichts, ich krieche in keinster Weise zu Kreuze. In den vier Monaten, in denen wir nun die ganze Sach… aufgenommen haben, in denen Sie sich bemühten, mein Gedächtnis aufzufrischen, sehr vieles wurde aufgefrischt, – es wäre zu leicht, und ich könnte es billig… machen, der heutigen Meinung nach, daß ich gewissermaßen so spiele, daß aus einem Saulus ein Paulus würde, aber ich sage Ihnen, daß kann ich nicht, weil ich nicht bereit bin, weil sich mein Inneres dagegen sträubt, zu sagen, wir hätten etwas falsch gemacht. Nein, – ich muß Ihnen ganz ehrlich sagen, hätten wir von den 10, 3 Mill Juden, die Korherr ausgewiesen hat, wie wir nun wissen, 10,3Mil… Juden getötet, dann wäre ich zufrieden und würde sagen, gut, wir haben einen Feind vernichtet. Nun, da durch des Schicksals Tücke, ein Großteil dieser Juden am Leben erhal… geblieben sind, sage ich mir, das Schicksal wollte es so, ich habe mich de… Schicksal und der Vorsehung unterzuordnen. Unsere Aufgabe für unser Blut, für unser Volk, und für die Freiheit der Völker hätten wir erfüllt, hätt… wir den schlauesten Geist, der heute lebenden Menschheit vernichtet. Denn das ist es, was ich immer gesagt habe, wir kämpfen gegen einen Gegner, der durch viele tausendjährige Schulung uns überlegen ist. Wann es war, weiß ich nicht mehr, aber noch bevor die Römer ihren Saat errichten, noch bevor überhaupt Rom gegründet wurde, konnten hier die Juden schreiben… Und wenn ein Volk über eine geschriebene 6000 jährige Geschichte zurück greif… kann, ein Volk daß schon 5 od 6000 Jahren gesetzgeberisch tätig gewesen ist, daß sich heute die Kirchen dieser Gesetzgebung bedienen, ist für mich sehr deprimierend. Aber es sagt mir, daß es sich um ein Volk erster Größen handeln muß, denn Gesetzgeber sind immer Große gewesen. Und aus diesen Gründen kämpf… ich ja gegen diesen Gegner und aus diesen Gründen heraus müssen Sie verstehen, wenn ich sage, wenn 10, 3 Mill dieser Gegner getötet worden wären, denn hätten wir unsere Aufgabe erfüllt, – so es aber nicht so ist, werde ich Ihnen sagen,

Draft translation

[Band 6] [HW: 715] The plan arose, roughly at the time when the order for physical extermination came--so it is not an exaggeration to say that this Kaufmann plan provoked this order.- Yes, back then in the discussion it was not the Morgenthau plan, but rather the Kaufmann plan that reappeared for the first time after 45, that was it. I said back then, do not lead me onto thin ice, whether it was now called Eichmann, Morgenth[au] or whatever else, there was something there where I said to myself, good, now I must let all misgivings fall, for before my people bite the grass [bite the dust], let the whole world rather bite the grass.---- I, the cautious bureaucrat.----- But I would like to extend the "cautious bureaucrat" somewhat to my own disadvantage; to this cautious bureaucrat there joined a fanatical fighter for the freedom of my blood, from which I descend.--and I say once again, the louse that pinches you, that does not disturb me, but the louse that sits under my collar, that yes, and that applies to my people. What benefits my people is for me holy command and holy law.-- And now in conclusion I must tell you; 1. I regret nothing at all, I in no way crawl to the cross [eat humble pie/recant]. In the four months, in which we have now taken up the whole matter, in which you took pains to refresh my memory, very much was refreshed,-- it would be too easy, and I could make it cheap, according to today's opinion, that I in a certain manner play it so, that out of a Saul a Paul would become, but I tell you, that I cannot, because I am not prepared, because my inner self resists it, to say, we had done something wrong. No, ---- I must tell you quite honestly, had we of the 10.3 million Jews, whom Korherr identified, as we now know, killed 10.3 million Jews, then I would be satisfied and would say, good, we have annihilated an enemy. Now, since through fate's malice, a large part of these Jews have remained alive, I say to myself, fate wanted it so, I have to subordinate myself to fate and to providence. Our task for our blood, for our people, and for the freedom of the peoples we would have fulfilled, had we annihilated the shrewdest mind of the humanity living today. [HW: X] For that is what I have always said, we fight against an opponent who through many-thousand-year-long schooling is superior to us. When it was, I no longer know, but even before the Romans established their state [Saat = "seed/sowing"; likely "Staat" = state], even before Rome was founded at all, the Jews could write here. And when a people can reach back over a written 6000-year history, a people that already 5 or 6000 years ago was legislatively active, that today the churches make use of this legislation, is for me very depressing. But it tells me, that it must be a matter of a people of the first magnitude, for lawgivers have always been great [ones]. And for these reasons I do fight against this opponent and out of these reasons you must understand, when I say, if 10.3 million of these opponents had been killed, then we would have fulfilled our task, -- but since it is not so, I will tell you,

that those of ours who are not yet born will have to bear the suffering and hardship; perhaps they will curse us. But we were only a few people and were no match for the spirit of the age; we did what we could. Of course, I have to tell you, human feeling comes into it too. I was not free of that either. I too gave way to a weakness, and I too share the blame that perhaps, through some office, a predetermined conception, a truly comprehensive …, was able to be carried out. I told it in small examples. I too was intellectually inadequate.

I was put in a position where in truth I could have done more and where in truth I should have done more. What may serve as an excuse is, first, that I lacked breadth of mind; second, that I lacked the necessary physical toughness; and third, that against my own will I had a legion of people who in turn opposed that will. So I myself, who already felt handicapped, could not carry through the rest either, which might have helped me achieve a breakthrough, because I had to scatter my efforts in a years-long struggle against the so-called interventionists.

Whether you put that into the book I do not know. Perhaps it is not opportune at all; perhaps one should not do it at all. But it is only to be said to you in conclusion, after the four months of refreshing my memory.

And as I already said, these things that have now been recorded here are to serve as a basis for research after my death. As long as I am alive, it does not interest me. I have no wish whatsoever to emerge from concealment into the limelight.

Open page image and German
Page 716 of the typescript, O.65 file 88.
Page 716 · Yad Vashem Archives, O.65/88

German transcription

daß das Leid und das Ungemach unsere noch nicht Geborenen zu bestehen haben, vielleicht werden sie uns verfluchen. Allein wir konnten als wenige Leute gegen den Zeitgeist nicht anstinken, wir haben getan, was wir konnten, – selbstverts. muß ich Ihnen sagen, kommt dazu menschliche Regung, auch ich bin nicht frei gewesen davon, auch ich unterlag einer Schwäche, und auch ich bin mit schuld daran, daß vielleicht von irgendeiner Stelle eine vorbestimmte Konzeption, eine wirkl. umfassende … hat durchgeführt werden können. Ich erzählte es in kleinen Beispielen, – auch ich war ein unzulänglicher Geist, ich wurde an eine Stelle gesetzt, wo ich in Wahrheit mehr hätte machen können und wo ich in Wahrheit mehr hätte machen müssen. Als Entschuldigung mag dienen, daß 1. es mir an umfassenden Geist fehlte, als 2. daß es mir an der nötigen physischen Härte fehlte, und als 3. daß ich selbst gegen mein Wollen eine Legion von Leuten hatte, die wieder gegen dieses Wollen anstanken. sodaß ich selbst, der ich mich schon gehandicapt fühlte, auch den Rest, der mir etwa zum Durchbruch verholfen hae… widerum nicht durchführer konnte, weil ich mich verzetteln mußte, in einem jahrelangen Kampf gegen die sogen. Interventionisten. Ob Sie das nun in das Buch hineingeben weiß ich nicht, vielleicht ist es gar nich… opportun, vielleicht soll man es gar nicht, aber es soll Ihnen nur zum Abschluß gesagt sein, nach den vier Monaten der Auffrischung meines Gedächtnisses… Und wie ich schon sagte, sollen diese Sachen nach meinem Tode, die nun hier aufgenommen worden sind – als Grundlage zur Forschung dienen – solange ich lebe interessiert es mich nicht. – ich wünsche in keinster Weise aus dem Vorborgenen in dem Rampenlicht zu erscheinen.

Draft translation

10 Volume 67 [HW: 716] that the suffering and the hardship our not-yet-born will have to endure, perhaps they will curse us. But we as few people could not prevail against the spirit of the times, we did what we could, -- of course I must tell you, added to this comes human emotion, I too was not free of it, I too was subject to a weakness, and I too am partly to blame that perhaps from some office a predetermined conception, a truly comprehensive could have been carried out. I told it in small examples, -- I too was an inadequate mind, I was placed in a position where in truth I could have done more and where in truth I would have had to do more. As an excuse may serve that 1. I lacked a comprehensive mind, as 2. that I lacked the necessary physical hardness, and as 3. that I myself, against my own will, had a legion of people who in turn prevailed against this will. so that I myself, who already felt handicapped, also the rest, which [DEL: [illegible]] would have helped me to a breakthrough perhaps could in turn not carry out, because I had to fritter myself away, in a years-long struggle against the so-called interventionists. Whether you now put that into the book I do not know, perhaps it is not at all opportune, perhaps one should not do so at all, but it should only be said to you in conclusion, after the four months of the refreshing of my memory..-- ------- And as I already said, these things which have now been recorded here shall, after my death--- serve as a basis for research--- as long as I live it does not interest me.----I wish in no way to step out of the hidden into the limelight. -------
Browse by topic 54 sections
People and words 104 entries
  • Party, state, and military 5
  • SS and police 13
  • Offices and codes 11
  • Ranks and titles 21
  • People and initials 14
  • Places and occupied regions 6
  • Camps and ghettos 5
  • Laws, plans, and events 6
  • Persecution and deportation 13
  • Movements and foreign bodies 7
  • Money, equipment, and technical short forms 1
  • Unresolved short forms 2

All pages

Eichmann opens on policy and mass killing

Pages 1 to 8

  1. 1
  2. 2
  3. 3
  4. 4
  5. 5
  6. 6
  7. 7
  8. 8

Vienna, Palestine and the Madagascar plan

Pages 9 to 17

  1. 9
  2. 10
  3. 11
  4. 12
  5. 13
  6. 14
  7. 15
  8. 16
  9. 17

Offices, camps and Eichmann's view of duty

Pages 18 to 27

  1. 18
  2. 19
  3. 20
  4. 21
  5. 22
  6. 23
  7. 24
  8. 25
  9. 26
  10. 27

Nuremberg testimony, killing methods and signed orders

Pages 28 to 35

  1. 28
  2. 29
  3. 30
  4. 31
  5. 32
  6. 33
  7. 34
  8. 35

Heydrich, Müller, Schellenberg and the RSHA offices

Pages 36 to 44

  1. 36
  2. 37
  3. 38
  4. 39
  5. 40
  6. 41
  7. 42
  8. 43
  9. 44

SS correspondence and Eichmann's postwar false identity

Pages 45 to 60

  1. 45
  2. 46
  3. 47
  4. 48
  5. 49
  6. 50
  7. 51
  8. 52
  9. 53
  10. 54
  11. 55
  12. 56
  13. 57
  14. 58
  15. 59
  16. 60

The Hungarian deportations, marches and negotiations

Pages 61 to 84

  1. 61
  2. 62
  3. 63
  4. 64
  5. 65
  6. 66
  7. 67
  8. 68
  9. 69
  10. 70
  11. 71
  12. 72
  13. 73
  14. 74
  15. 75
  16. 76
  17. 77
  18. 78
  19. 79
  20. 80
  21. 81
  22. 82
  23. 83
  24. 84

The Weiss group, Becher and exchange proposals

Pages 85 to 95

  1. 85
  2. 86
  3. 87
  4. 88
  5. 89
  6. 90
  7. 91
  8. 92
  9. 93
  10. 94
  11. 95

Church interventions, Slovakia and the Jewish-affairs advisers

Pages 96 to 113

  1. 96
  2. 97
  3. 98
  4. 99
  5. 100
  6. 101
  7. 102
  8. 103
  9. 104
  10. 105
  11. 106
  12. 107
  13. 108
  14. 109
  15. 110
  16. 111
  17. 112 to 113

Death totals, conscience and Jewish leaders

Pages 114 to 121

  1. 114
  2. 115
  3. 116
  4. 117
  5. 118
  6. 119
  7. 120
  8. 121

Horthy, the transports and the Budapest ghetto

Pages 122 to 131

  1. 122
  2. 123
  3. 124
  4. 125
  5. 126
  6. 127
  7. 128
  8. 129
  9. 130
  10. 131

Höss and Auschwitz, then Belgrade

Pages 132 to 141

  1. 132
  2. 133
  3. 134
  4. 135
  5. 136
  6. 137
  7. 138
  8. 139
  9. 140
  10. 141

Orders, railway timetables and office paperwork

Pages 142 to 148

  1. 142
  2. 143
  3. 144
  4. 145
  5. 146
  6. 147
  7. 148

Who controlled the deportations in Hungary and Warsaw

Pages 149 to 187

  1. 149
  2. 150
  3. 151
  4. 152
  5. 153
  6. 154
  7. 155
  8. 156
  9. 157
  10. 158
  11. 159
  12. 160
  13. 161
  14. 162
  15. 163
  16. 164
  17. 165
  18. 166
  19. 167
  20. 168
  21. 169
  22. 170
  23. 171
  24. 172
  25. 173
  26. 174
  27. 175
  28. 176
  29. 177
  30. 178
  31. 179
  32. 180
  33. 181
  34. 182
  35. 183
  36. 184
  37. 185
  38. 186
  39. 187

Deportations from Greece, Bulgaria and Slovakia

Pages 188 to 207

  1. 188
  2. 189
  3. 190
  4. 191
  5. 192
  6. 193
  7. 194
  8. 195
  9. 196
  10. 197
  11. 198
  12. 199
  13. 200
  14. 201
  15. 202
  16. 203
  17. 204
  18. 205
  19. 206
  20. 207

Brand, Kastner and the deportation figures

Pages 208 to 233

  1. 208
  2. 209
  3. 210
  4. 211
  5. 212
  6. 213
  7. 214
  8. 215
  9. 216
  10. 217
  11. 218
  12. 219
  13. 220
  14. 221
  15. 222
  16. 223
  17. 224 to 225
  18. 226
  19. 227
  20. 228
  21. 229 · Audio
  22. 230
  23. 231
  24. 232
  25. 233

Command lines, Jewish offices, records and property

Pages 234 to 252

  1. 234
  2. 235
  3. 236
  4. 237
  5. 238
  6. 239
  7. 240
  8. 241
  9. 242
  10. 243
  11. 244
  12. 245
  13. 246
  14. 247
  15. 248
  16. 249
  17. 250
  18. 251
  19. 252

Eichmann's childhood, jobs and early SS service

Pages 253 to 271

  1. 253
  2. 254
  3. 255
  4. 256
  5. 257
  6. 258
  7. 259
  8. 260
  9. 261
  10. 262
  11. 263
  12. 264
  13. 265
  14. 266
  15. 267
  16. 268
  17. 269
  18. 270
  19. 271

Regulations, ranks and Eichmann's career

Pages 272 to 290

  1. 272
  2. 273
  3. 274
  4. 275
  5. 276
  6. 277
  7. 278
  8. 279
  9. 280
  10. 281
  11. 282
  12. 283
  13. 284
  14. 285
  15. 286
  16. 287
  17. 288
  18. 289
  19. 290

Romania, France and the SD

Pages 291 to 309

  1. 291
  2. 292
  3. 293
  4. 294
  5. 295
  6. 296 to 297
  7. 298
  8. 299
  9. 300
  10. 301
  11. 302
  12. 303
  13. 304
  14. 305
  15. 306
  16. 307
  17. 308
  18. 309

Deportation inspections, seized property and Globocnik

Pages 310 to 325

  1. 310
  2. 311
  3. 312
  4. 313
  5. 314
  6. 315
  7. 316
  8. 317
  9. 318
  10. 319
  11. 320
  12. 321
  13. 322
  14. 323
  15. 324
  16. 325

Unidentified speaker on Zionism and wartime claims

Pages 326 to 341

  1. 326
  2. 327
  3. 328
  4. 329
  5. 330
  6. 331
  7. 332 to 333
  8. 334
  9. 335
  10. 336
  11. 337
  12. 338
  13. 339
  14. 340
  15. 341

Back to Globocnik, money and records

Pages 342 to 353

  1. 342
  2. 343
  3. 344
  4. 345
  5. 346
  6. 347
  7. 348
  8. 349
  9. 350
  10. 351
  11. 352
  12. 353

Göring, economics and postwar population figures

Pages 354 to 362

  1. 354
  2. 355
  3. 356
  4. 357
  5. 358
  6. 359
  7. 360
  8. 361
  9. 362

Vienna's Jewish offices, emigration and police records

Pages 363 to 378

  1. 363
  2. 364
  3. 365
  4. 366
  5. 367
  6. 368
  7. 369
  8. 370
  9. 371
  10. 372
  11. 373
  12. 374
  13. 375
  14. 376
  15. 377
  16. 377, second copy
  17. 378

Theresienstadt, trial arguments and defense witnesses

Pages 379 to 382

  1. 379
  2. 380
  3. 381
  4. 382

Wannsee, ghettos, Nisko and Madagascar

Pages 383 to 394

  1. 383
  2. 384
  3. 385
  4. 386
  5. 387
  6. 388
  7. 389
  8. 390
  9. 391
  10. 392
  11. 393
  12. 394

Mass killing, deportation policy and police duties

Pages 395 to 405

  1. 395
  2. 396
  3. 397
  4. 398
  5. 399
  6. 400
  7. 401
  8. 402
  9. 403
  10. 404
  11. 405

Racial law, property controls and propaganda

Pages 406 to 422

  1. 406
  2. 407
  3. 408
  4. 409
  5. 410
  6. 411
  7. 412
  8. 413
  9. 414
  10. 415
  11. 416
  12. 417
  13. 418 · Audio
  14. 419
  15. 420
  16. 421
  17. 422

Authorization for mass killing and personal responsibility

Pages 423 to 453

  1. 423
  2. 424
  3. 425
  4. 426
  5. 427
  6. 428
  7. 429
  8. 430
  9. 431
  10. 432
  11. 433
  12. 434
  13. 435
  14. 436
  15. 437
  16. 438
  17. 439
  18. Blank sheet
  19. 440
  20. 441
  21. 442
  22. 443
  23. 444
  24. 445
  25. 446
  26. 447
  27. 448
  28. 449
  29. 450
  30. 451
  31. 452
  32. 453

Kaltenbrunner's last orders and Hoettel's two million

Pages 454 to 481

  1. 454
  2. 455
  3. 456
  4. 457
  5. 458
  6. 459
  7. 460
  8. 461
  9. 462
  10. 463
  11. 464
  12. 465
  13. 466
  14. 467
  15. 468
  16. 469
  17. 470
  18. 471
  19. 472
  20. 473
  21. 474
  22. 475
  23. 476
  24. 477
  25. 478
  26. 479
  27. 480
  28. 481

Hoettel, Gerstein and the records of extermination

Pages 482 to 489

  1. 482
  2. 483
  3. 484
  4. 485
  5. 486
  6. 487
  7. 488
  8. 489

Wannsee figures and mixed-marriage policy

Pages 490 to 495

  1. 490
  2. 491
  3. 492
  4. 493
  5. 494
  6. 495

Müller, Nebe, Heydrich and Höss's figures

Pages 496 to 508

  1. 496
  2. 497
  3. 498
  4. 499
  5. 500
  6. 501
  7. 502
  8. 503
  9. 504
  10. 505
  11. 506
  12. 507
  13. 508

Auschwitz transport calculations and deportations from France

Pages 510 to 525

  1. 510
  2. 511
  3. 512
  4. 513
  5. 514
  6. 515
  7. 516
  8. 517
  9. 518
  10. 519
  11. 520
  12. 521
  13. 522
  14. 523
  15. 524
  16. 525

Children deported from France, Röttke and Laval

Pages 526 to 531

  1. 526
  2. 527
  3. 528
  4. 529
  5. 530
  6. 531

Italian-occupied France and the French deportation figures

Pages 532 to 541

  1. 532
  2. 533 to 534
  3. 535
  4. 536
  5. 537
  6. 538
  7. 539
  8. 540
  9. 541

Orders, mass killing and the Einsatzgruppen

Pages 542 to 555

  1. 542
  2. 543
  3. 544
  4. 545
  5. 546
  6. 547
  7. 548
  8. 549
  9. 550
  10. 551
  11. 552
  12. 553
  13. 554
  14. 555

A Budapest telegram and the Hungarian deportations

Pages 556 to 558

  1. 556
  2. 557
  3. 558

Heydrich's authority and responsibility for extermination

Pages 560 to 573

  1. 560
  2. 561
  3. 562
  4. 563
  5. 564
  6. 565
  7. 566
  8. 567
  9. 568
  10. 569
  11. 570
  12. 571
  13. 572
  14. 573

Müller, Stahlecker, ghettos and the Lublin plan

Pages 574 to 582

  1. 574
  2. 575
  3. 576
  4. 577
  5. 578
  6. 579
  7. 580
  8. 581
  9. 582

Deportation statistics and children killed by injection

Pages 583 to 591

  1. 583
  2. 584
  3. 585
  4. 586
  5. 587
  6. 588
  7. 589
  8. 590
  9. 591

Belgium, Denmark, Norway and Swedish protection

Pages 592 to 604

  1. 592
  2. 593
  3. 594
  4. 595
  5. 596
  6. 597
  7. 598
  8. 599
  9. 600
  10. 601
  11. 602
  12. 603
  13. 604

Italy, the Netherlands and the local officials

Pages 605 to 617

  1. 605
  2. 606
  3. 607
  4. 608
  5. 609
  6. 610
  7. 611
  8. 612
  9. 613
  10. 614
  11. 615
  12. 616
  13. 617

Theresienstadt, Westerbork and the Dutch transports

Pages 618 to 636

  1. 618
  2. 619
  3. 620
  4. 621
  5. 622
  6. 623
  7. 624
  8. 625
  9. 627
  10. 628
  11. 629
  12. 630
  13. 631
  14. 632
  15. 633
  16. 634
  17. 635
  18. 636

Hadamar, euthanasia and military reports

Pages 637 to 642

  1. 637
  2. 638
  3. 639
  4. 640
  5. 641
  6. 642

Camp deaths, Himmler's speeches and Czech emigration

Pages 643 to 649

  1. 643
  2. 644
  3. 645
  4. 646
  5. 647
  6. 648
  7. 649

Löwenherz, the Mufti and population-loss figures

Pages 650 to 659

  1. 650
  2. 651
  3. 652
  4. 653
  5. 654
  6. 655
  7. 656
  8. 657
  9. 658
  10. 659

Estimates, witness statements and statistics read aloud

Pages 660 to 667

  1. 660
  2. 661
  3. 662
  4. 663
  5. 664
  6. 665
  7. 666 · Audio
  8. 667

Hoettel, Kaltenbrunner, Hungary and the Warsaw Ghetto

Pages 668 to 683

  1. 668
  2. 669
  3. 670
  4. 671
  5. 672
  6. 673
  7. 674
  8. 675
  9. 676
  10. 677
  11. 678
  12. 679
  13. 680
  14. 681
  15. 682
  16. 683

Family stories, camp administration and Operation Bernhard

Pages 684 to 693

  1. 684
  2. 685
  3. 686
  4. 687
  5. 688
  6. 689
  7. 690
  8. 691
  9. 692
  10. 693

The skeleton collection, Beger, Hirth and Sievers

Pages 694 to 697

  1. 694
  2. 695
  3. 696
  4. 697

Mixed marriages, forced divorce and asylum killings

Pages 698 to 707

  1. 698 · Audio
  2. 699
  3. 700
  4. 701
  5. 702
  6. 703
  7. 704
  8. 705
  9. 706
  10. 707 · Audio

Ancestry, Scandinavia, Wallenberg and the closing monologue

Pages 708 to 716

  1. 708
  2. 709
  3. 710
  4. 711
  5. 712
  6. 713
  7. 714
  8. 715 · Audio
  9. 716